<8/12/98 From Judy Re: HCM & CRF>
S. Arora wrote:

<< Sometimes I throw in Motherwort, parsley, horsetail etc.>>

Hi everyone,

Just read last nite that parsley (petroselinum crispum) should not be used during kidney disease. (Mary's herbal guide)

Is anyone familiar with Bio-Botanica herbs, as far as quality goes?

On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:07:41 -0500 Judy <critterz@> writes:
<<Just read last nite that parsley (petroselinum crispum) should not be used during kidney disease. (Mary's herbal guide)>>

I read that parsley used over a very long period can cause a potassium deficiency b/c it is a good diuretic so that's why I only use it like once every 5-6 weeks or so for just a couple of days or so.  I prefer dandelion b/c it is rich in potassium.

Sandy

Cheri, if possible give your CRF cat some food via syringe.  Any food is  good when kitty is not eating on her own.   If u have human baby food (Beechnut brand), add a tad water, suck it up into a syringe and feed.  If u don't have baby food at home, blend some cat food and give that to her.

Bottom line - your kitty *must* eat.  If she will tolerate force-feeding, try and do it.  If she won't, then try anything u have at home that she likes.  You're doing a good thing giving her water via syringe.

As for final stages, you will be surprised how much of a roller-coaster CRF is:(  I've had several episodes w/ Booey where I hought, this is surely the end, and stayed up all nite bawling my eyes out only to have him bounce back the next day.  I hope this is the case w/ your kitty.

BTW, why is the vet giving her Tetra?  Does she have some sort of infection too?  As much as I am unimpressed w/ antibiotics, I wouldn't quit a course of one...gotta take it for the entire time - 10 days or whatever.  But then I'm not a vet so s/he must know what they are doing.

Do u have Anitra Frazier's book?  She has a (sad but) excellent section the final stages of a kitty's life.  My cat Tasha exhibited almost each and every sign on that list:(((  I pray to Bastet your kitty's time has not come yet.

Hang in there.  We are here for ya.  Email me privately if I can help in any way.  Take care, and healing purrs for your baby from my 4 naughties.

Sandy

Leah wrote:

<<  The Creat. lowered to slightly above normal (according to this lab) at 1.6 vs. 3.2 the last time; quite a change!  HOWEVER, the BUN is 53 (formerly 50); >>

This is GREAT news---Yay Giddy!!!!  Creatinine is how the disease is progressing, so Giddy is in good shape!  The BUN is how he feels at that specific time, so it fluctuates, and up 3 from last time (IMO) is no big deal.  I have questioned my vet time and time again, about fasting the boyz before blood tests, and she repeatedly tells me that it is not neccesary, and that a 'fast' for a crf kitty is not a good idea.

<<Leah, is Giddy still at a raised protein % ?  How's his weight?>>

I went to http://www.baysport.com/bloodexp.html to check out some blood values explanations, but it's not there anymore.  Or is it?  I've been having some funky Netscape probs!

Hi Trish and everyone,

Besides being wayyyy behind in messages, my Netscape seems to be mal-functioning.

The reason I think your vet is going with a kidney disease diet for kidney stones is that stones can lead to diseased kidneys, so your vet is being precautious.  Charlie is 7 1/2 years old so if you go with a lowered protein food, IMO that shouldn't cause probs, till the stones are dissolved (just incase).  For crf I am in favor of a lowered protein food.  Sammy (crf) for a year ate homemade (Fraziers) lowered protien food.  I read all this quality vs. quantity stuff and decided to raise his protein %.  Let me say now, that Sammys kidney #'s were the *exact* same (not too high--fairly good) for 5 blood tests prior to me raising his protein.  I raised his protein and it sent his #'s soaring which then required sub-q fluids.  Leah's, Giddy has good results with a maintenance protein % and crf, but she supplements with glandulars which I think is the reason for her good results.

If you do decide to stay with a commercial kidney disease diet, *I* think that perhaps you should look into the Purina NF formula.  Both the dry and canned versions have much better ingredients than the k/d.

If you go with a homemade lowered protein diet, I can share with you what supplements I use with my boyz, but I'm not sure your really want to treat stones at this point as kidney disease.

Well wishes to Charlie, and special purrz to Timmy :(

Hi everyone,

The products I am using with Giddy are classified as PMG (protomorphogens). I feel they are helping, although slowly. I am willing to include some information on this particular company's processing and additional information, but will send it privately to those interested if not of general interest.  The technques are quite different, both in the suggestions for administration and the structure of the product.

Also, Sandy, along the lines of "like cures like", there was an interesting recipe in the March/April 1995 edition of Tiger Tribe magazine. It was a recipe for steak and kidney pie for cats.  The comments above it were as follows: "A cat living with the British homeopath George MacLeod was dying of kidney failure.  MacLeod decided to let this cat eat anything he wanted and what he wanted most was ox kidney.  The cat went on to make a full recovery and was still going strong after three years."  The  recipe is listed which I can post if there's interest.

Leah
lknipp@

Patricia J Walters wrote:
<< I just got the blood results for Charlie.  His bun in April was 47, > now it's 48.  His Creat was 3.2, now it's way up to 4.1.  Does anyone have any experience with getting these levels down?  The other thing > that's bad is his red cell count, it's really low at 24%.>>

Hi everyone,

I believe standard allo treatment would use sub-q fluids to lower the BUN.  But Charlie's BUN went up 1, that's nothing.  BUN fluctuates with when and what has been eaten.  Creatinine, is a waste product from protein, so (for crf) they say to lower the protein.  I don't know much about kidney stones except that they can lead to kidney disease.  What was Charlie's urine test results?  I'll probably get flamed for suggesting this, but perhaps you could try a lowered protein foodie.  Try it short-term and see how it goes. Anemia can be caused by kidney disease.  Sammy (crf) had a spell of anemia a while back, and we got his blood count back in check with a chelated iron supplement.

<<I've got him on bottled water.  He's been on fish for about 3 weeks now. I'm going to attempt to get him to eat raw tonight.  No dry. No free feeding.>>

Steam-distilled water is good.  I use bottled infant drinking water tho, cause it's 1/2 steam-distilled and 1/2 spring water.  An exclusive 'fish' diet?  IMO, I think you should use some poultry.  Fish every once in awhile, but primarily warm blooded meats.  IMO again, if you're gonna try raw for the first time, it should not be raw fish. You don't mention anything about grains, but for the kidneys, barley is the best suited.

A positive thing to think about Trish is that Charlie is still a youngen'.  He's got his youth on his side!  Charlie will be just fine!

Hi Trish,
I'm new to the cat list and I believe we have similar kitty problems.  I adopted a Himalayan cat named Sasha last year at the clinic where I work (allo vet) when her owner wanted her put down because of her chronic urinary tract infections.  Sasha had bladder stones (I had them removed in January surgically...at the time I wasn't aware there were other options), shrinking kidneys, and a high blood calcium level.  I followed instructions to the letter--Hill's c/d-o for her calcium stones and absolutely no supplements, but it didn't help.

She did well for a few months until she crashed, became lethargic, and stopped eating.  I took her in for bloodwork, and it looked pretty grim...until I took her to a local homeopathic vet.  We've been working with the vet for a month now, and I can finally say that I'm relieved.....I'm getting Sasha onto homemade food (it felt SO good throwing out that Hill's!) with supplements, and I believe there is hope. She isn't anywhere near 100%, but I believe that we will get there someday.  Anyway, I know how horrible it is having to go through this, and I would love to help if I can.

First, are the stones in the kidney or the bladder?  If there are in the kidneys themselves, then they are very likely causing the elevated  creatinine.  If they are in the bladder, it's also likely that they are causing them in a round-about way (particularly if he has a history of chronic bladder or kidney infections).  Either way, they might need to come out, and a holistic vet may be able to help you with non-surgical means.

Do the vets have an idea of what kind of stones have been formed?  My guess would be calcium oxalate (but they might not be).  There are a  number of suspected causes behind CaOx stones....water, acidifying diet or diet high in oxalates (spinach, etc), hyperparathyroidism, Addison's, etc. In Sasha's case, it is an idiopathic hypercalcemia, which is what the allopathic vets haven't been able to find a root cause for, and what the holistic vet is trying to treat.

What have his urinalyses looked like?  Are there any other blood abnormalities (calcium, phosphorus, ALT, AST, protein)?  What are his symptoms right now?

There is so much information I have been learning about this disease, I really don't know where to start.  I have a few allopathic articles on calcium oxalate bladder stones that I would be very happy to send to you--they will give you an idea of what kidney stones are, and then you can move on to holistic means of treatment.  Let me know, and I'll dig up as much info as I can.

My thought are with you both,
Tricia & Sasha (and the rest of the kitty herd)

PS -- sorry this was so long everyone!

Tricia H

-----Original Message-----
From: Patricia J W

I just got the blood results for Charlie.  His bun in April was 47, now it's 48.  His Creat was 3.2, now it's way up to 4.1.  Does anyone have any experience with getting these levels down?  The other thing that's bad is his red cell count, it's really low at 24%.

He's got stones in his kidneys.  The xrays in March seem to be the exact same as now.  At least he's not getting any more stones, nor are the existing ones growing.

I've got him on bottled water.  He's been on fish for about 3 weeks now. I'm going to attempt to get him to eat raw tonight.  No dry. No free feeding.

Please forward any experience ASAP.  I just can't let him go through what Timmy went through.  I'm so stressed out about this I can hardly function. I can't do this again, not financially nor emotionally.  I'm determined to win this battle!

Trish
waltersp@

<<He's got stones in his kidneys.  The xrays in March seem to be the exact same as now.  At least he's not getting any more stones, nor are the existing ones growing.>>

Dr Moore (from Wellpet) has a "tried and true" remedy for stones:

<<We're in the midst of a storm but I had to respond to this quickly. First, let's get rid of the stones. Here's a remedy that has never failed in animal or man. For a little one I'd suggest at least 2 teaspoons, 3 times a day for 10 days. This remedy works within 10 days on any unnecessary stones/calculi within the system - renal stones, bone spurs, you name it. Tastes good, too.

Here'e the recipe (ingredients can be cut in half to make a smallerbatch):

Dr. Shook's remedy

• 3 oz. hydrangea root (Hydrangea aborescens) - cut & sift
• 3 heaped teaspoonfuls of crushed Natrum Phosphate 6X (homeopathic biochemic tissue salt)-available in just about every health food store. Sold as Nat Phos. 6X
• 3 pints distilled water
• 100% pure vegetable glycerine

I'll get into the possible causes - which is food-based most likely, tomorrow if the storms don't get too bad.

<and>

As the remedy is harmless (non-toxic), I would suggest 1 tsp at least twice a day for a little kitty. If no improvement within 10 days, bump it up to 3 times a day.

Rev. Debra L. Moore, D.N.
Doctor of Naturology
RevHerbDoc@>>>

Release.....

Kristy T
muddypaw@

Tricia H wrote:
<<Sounds good.  Only things I know to avoid in crf is bonemeal, oyster shell or dolomite becuase of phosphorus concentrations.>>

Hi Tricia and all,

Just sharing some random thoughts on CRF.  Incidentally, I fall on the regular or even higher protein % side of the debate.  I just have a gut feeling about what my CRF kid needs, and so far I'm doing ok.  He has lived about 18 months past his 3 week prognosis and has a good quality of life.  I forget who mentioned earlier that CRF strikes older cats mostly.  My older cat died at age 9 of renal failure, and my other cat  was diagnosed around age 9 too.  On the CRF list there are so many kitties who are young (some 4 yr olds, even 2) and already have CRF:(  It's very sad indeed.

My cat Booey has CRF; he's now a little over 10 yrs of age.  I have found that ever since I started force feeding him regular protein raw  food, there has been a huge change in him.  His fur is fluffier and his hind legs don't seem to be as weak.

I've felt for a long time that the Cal-Phos, Na-K, etc. balance is more important than say Na or Phos levels, per se.  I think the allo approach is to lower protein and Phos intake but cats need both of those to live, so it sure is a dilemma:(

Personally, I grind the entire animal so don't use bonemeal.  Bonemeal is processed which I don't like but I also have a suspicion that the  bones of an animal are more bio-available and nutritionally complete than something that came out of a factory.   Having said this I know that grinding meat at home isn't an option for everyone so this is not a criticism by any means of the use of bonemeal supplements.

Judy wrote:
<<This time I bought TwinLabs brand, which is potassium citrate & potassium aspartate.  The nutritionist said it was better assimilated than the gluconate, but I forgot to mention it was for a feline. >>

Usually u wanna go w/ organic forms rather than inorganic or so I was told by a nutritionist I spoke w/ at a holistic Expo recently.  Booey  has been getting K Gluc for over a yr.  For other CRF parents - K Gluc is the same as Tumil-K which sold by vets for 10x the price.  I'm considering switching to 1/2 citrate and 1/2 gluc tho cuz citrate is supposed to help w/ acidosis.  I'll wait till I see what Booey CO2 and other levels are before I decide for sure tho.  Dunno about aspartate for felines; it is supposed to be good for humans tho.

<<*Complementary and Alternative Veterinary Medicine* ed. Schoen & Wynn
Geriatric dog or cat: (daily dose range)

Vitamin E	50-200 IU
Coenzyme Q 10	20-100mg
Primrose oil	500-2000mg
Fish oil	250-1000mg

>>

Hmmm..anytime someone lumps cats in the same category as another animal, their suggestions become suspect to me.  The above levels seem rather hi but then I ain't a vet so they must know something we don't.  I'm way more conservative so I'd never give 200IU daily of a fat-soluble  vitamin.  1000 mg of fish oil would mean 2 of those horse pill-size softgels per day..yikes!  I'm lucky if I can get 1 down my kid every 3-4 days or so.  Maybe these 2 vets based the dosages on Maine Coons or Ragamuffins or something, not my 7-8 lb cats! <g>  Or maybe a large breed of d*g; a far cry from a little kitty.

<<

Dimethylglycine	24-100mg
Zinc	1-15mg

>>

For humans, above 30mg is not a good idea according to Dr. Weil and other docs so 15 mg seems hi for a kitty even if one doesn't go by the 1/15 of a human dose yardstick.

<<Now how you could ever get all that into one small kitty is beyond me! (If  you figure it out tho, I'd love to know:) )>>

What works for me and my 7.5 lb Boo Boo bear is to use a lot of tinctures and liquids and mix 'em up in his raw food (which I run thru a  blender and feed via a syringe).  Then I prioritize things he must have every day like the K supplement, taurine, and his BP drug (Norvasc).  I add 2 more pills each time so that lets me give a lot more supplements on a rotating basis.  I usually give 1-1.5 pills at a time using a pill  gun, then chase it w/ his brewed herbs to help get it all down.  This has the added benefit of getting some fluid into him.  Ever since I switched to a raw diet for him, he is hardly drinking water.  I'm sorelieved!

Sandy

Barbara wrote:
<<breeder.   I am also testing my cats for polycystic kidney disease.  PKD>>

Thanks for bringing this to the forefront, Barb.  I've often wondered too about PKD in my cats b/c Tasha was a Himmie and Booey is a Persian. Do u know if Himalayans and exotic Persians are less likely to carry this gene?  And is this gene recessive or dominant?

<<breeding animals for PKD and the results are shocking.  37% of the persians reported as tested have PKD.>>

Those are pretty alarming %s indeed:(  Do u know if Persian breeders are coming forward voluntarily to get their cats tested or this is just a small % of responsible breeders? i realize PKD testing is not always easily available so they may want to but can't for whatever reason.

The bottom line for non-breeders like me is - I am not going to get another Persian or exotic w/o a certification that the kitty has been  scanned for PKD.  I remember some discussions on the Persian and Exotic lists about a yr ago and several people said something to the effect that as long as cats w/ PKD are not bred, what's the problem.  But now we're learning that such cats already have a terrible handicap in that their poor little kidneys may make them more susceptible to other problems such as CRF:((

<<few cats of other breeds have been tested and there are some isolated reports of positive Siamese, Scottish Folds and American's as well as  household pets.>>

Since so many other breeds use Persians, alas, they're probably not far behind.

<<I am curious now if any of you with a cat in CRF have had that cat tested for PKD.   The only way to test is by ultrasound of the kidneys.>>

No, b/c it never came up w/ Tashie.  One day she was fine w/ normal CBC values.  Next day she had her teeth cleaned, and less than a month later, she had lost over 95% of her kidney function. She died 5 weeks later.  W/ Booey, b/c of his heart, I don't like to stress him out.  He had 2 ultrasounds for his heart and I wish I had thought of it, I would have asked for them to scan his kidneys too.  I know one of his kidneys is 1/2 the normal size.  Do kidneys shrink w/ PKD?  I know they do for cats in renal failure tho not always.  Problem is CRF is an umbrella term for any # of problems w/ the kidneys, the eventual result of which is decreased kidney function.

<<male who is severely affected.  He has blocked 3 or 4 times this year and been treated but until he was tested for PKD, neither my vet or I had any idea he had it.  The prognosis for him is not good.  I have  another 15 month old male who is severely affected but shows no signs of  it at the moment.   His blood panels are perfectly normal.>>

Oh dear!  That's really sad:(  What is it about PKD that causes them to get blocked, do u happen to know?  Could u put him on a herbal regimen as a preventive measure?  Just thinking out loud cuz this must be so difficult on you (and your Persian baby of course).

<<links there on PKD including a fairly new PKD home page and the listing>>

Thanks for this info.  I think I will take my young exotics to be tested as well as my ASH just in case.  Due to my paranoia about CRF, I sneak in some dandelion and other herbs in the healthy girls' food cuz I figure it won't hurt and can only help 'em in the small amounts I am giving them.

Sandy and the Purrsians

<<morn and nite.  It was very stressful.  No possibility of your boss  giving me a day or 2 off, huh?>>

Duh!  Ummm..s/he could give me a day off but you're the one who needs it! VBG! Sorry for the typo:)

Ok I remembered correctly about Epogen being approved for human use only.  Here is the snippet from the CRF website:

"Anemia
Epogen or Procrit (erythropoietin) is used to stimulate red blood cell production. Only the human form is currently available. Erythropoietin is administered to cats subcutaneously and your veterinarian can train you to do this at home. It is only used when the PCV (packed cell volume) drops extremely low and anemia is very severe. Although it has been proven effective, some cats may develop antibodies against it in which case the PCV falls even lower and the erythropoietin must be stopped
immediately. Therefore, a weekly blood test monitoring PCV is crucial when administering erythropoietin. Since erythropoietin is seldom used unless nothing else works and the situation is already hopeless, it is worth the risk of the cat developing antibodies. Check with your veterinarian about possible iron deficiency when using erythropoietin. "

Hmm..doesn't have the statistics here but I know I had it in my keepers file.  This is weird - if a cat is already anemic, then shouldn't Epogen help w/ that..the last sentence doesn't make sense to me.  Weekly blood test?  Sheesh!  Wonder how anemic that makes a cat?!

Oh btw, a comment about PKD.  Lee, I'm confused.  I have been told by several Persian breeders at cat shows that PKD does show up on a young kitty.  On the CRF website: http://www.best.com/~lynxpt this is what it says about PKD:

"Note - Polycystic Kidney Disease (most common in Persian cats and crosses between Persians and Domestic Shorthairs) can be detected early  with an ultrasound (the only reliable test for PKD at this time). PKD ultimately leads to kidney failure. Links to PKD web sites are included in our Links Section."

Hi again.    Am going to attempt to answer Sandy's questions here.  Will all, remember, I am a breeder, not a vet and that my knowledge and awareness of pkd began in April of this year.

<<Do u know if Himalayans and exotic Persians are less likely to carry this gene?  And is this gene recessive or dominant?>>

Himalayans and exotics appear to be equally affected.  I breed himi's and solids (not exotics) and am at 50% in both of those cats I've tested to date.  The gene is dominant.  If one parent has it, statistically half the offspring will have it.  If both parents have it, statistically 75% will have it and 25% of those will be homozygous, meaning if they live to breeding age they will produce 100% affected off spring.    To date, we are not aware of a homozygous breeding cat but that does not mean there isn't one.

<< breeding animals for PKD and the results are shocking.  37% of the persians reported as tested have PKD.
Those are pretty alarming %s indeed:(  Do u know if Persian breeders are coming forward voluntarily to get their cats tested or this is just a small % of responsible breeders? i realize PKD testing is not always easily available so they may want to but can't for whatever reason.>>

Yes, these stats are extremely alarming!!  Since I am keeping/reporting the stats via my webpage, I would have to estimate
somewhere around 1/2 of the breeders have already tested.  there is really no good way of knowing this.  There are a few large breeders who are resisting testing and/or refuse to test.  Opinions on testing are extremely divided and very emotional.  There are a lot of hard feelings about testing among the 2 groups at this moment.

It is often very difficult to find someone qualified to test.  I organized a clinic here simply because I wanted to know the status of my own cats.  Prices started at $250/cat and I only found 2 facilities that appeared to have any knowledge of pkd and equipment to test for it. One was the university 60 miles away.   I finally got the local internal med specialist to conduct a clinic and we got the leading expert to come in from Kansas to assist.  There are unfortunately reports where people have taken their cats for scanning up to 3 times with different results each time.  This can be very frustrating and very expensive for breeders.

<<The bottom line for non-breeders like me is - I am not going to get another Persian or exotic w/o a certification that the kitty has been scanned for PKD.>>

The key is to get a cat/kitten from negative parents and over a period of time, that will become easier and easier.   Information to date indicates somewhere around 75% of pkd positive kittens can be identified at 4 or 5 m onths of age.  Dr. Biller, the leading expert, believes 98% of all positives can be identified at 10 months to a year.

Because I became aware of this in April of this year and scanned my cats in late June, I had several litters on the ground before I knew the status of my cats.   Most were far too young to test in June when I started tested the adults.   Plus, there is no need to check the kittens IF the parents are negative.

Unfortu nately, I only have one litter of negative to negative breedings from the spring.   I now have several kittens between 4 and 6 months of age, waiting to be tested to see if they are clear.   There is no way I'll let a positive kitten go into a breeding program to reproduce this again.   These positive kittens will need good, loving homes where the owners are aware of the potential for a problem down the road or they will stay here.    Breeders all over the world are debating this right
now and each will handle it the way that is best for them.  That is just the way I'll handle it.  I may be giving lots of kittens away.

<<Do kidneys shrink w/ PKD?>>

I'm not a vet so going to give my best impression.  No, I do not think the kidneys shrink with PKD.  I do think, from what I've heard, they are enlarged as the cysts grow and think in severe cases, the cysts cause the surface of the kidney to be bumpy.

<<Could u put him on a herbal regimen as a preventive measure?  Just thinking out loud cuz this must be so difficult on you (and your Persian baby of course)>>

I have been searching for good, active holistic lists trying to figure out what to do here with these cats.   have also found a homeopath and consulted on pkd.  It would appear to me that either I have not found someone who is very knowledgeable or the homeopathic world is not aware of a "cure" either.   All I can tell you is that the traditional vet community is way behind the persian breeder group here in acknowledging the severity of PKD.  I did a survey among 16 vet hospitals locally (all large and with good reputations) and only 1 of the 16 knew what PKD was when I initially called.  This is obviously going mis-diagnosed or under-diagnosed world wide.  A major contributing factor is that most vet hospitals do not have ready access to the equipment necessary to diagnose it.

Sorry this is long but guess it has been waiting to "come out" somewhere.  Someone else wrote pkd is not always identifiable in young cats.... they can scan negative young and then be positive a few years later.    I suspect this is true but we really don't know.  Dr. Biller says the cysts are there from birth and never get smaller.  If the equipment is good enough it will find them unless they are pin pricks. The key is to have someone test with 7.5 MHz machine or better.   For a young kitten, a 10 MHz is better.   We found cysts as small as .3mm on some of these cats.   On the other hand, we found a 4 year old with 1 mm cyst in each kidney that had it been tested a couple of years ago with lesser equipment would have been negative.

It is also important to know that many of these cats will live a normal live and never have a problem with pkd.  That is one reason breeders have such a hard time dealing with this and why many vets don't even  know about it.  I just happen to have 2 here who will not.

My questions now are how to keep the cysts from growing (little is known about this) to extend the cat's life.   We do think stress and diet may  influence this but we frankly are not sure.  I am more than willing to experiment with an herbal regime to try to find out.

Barb

hey ya'll-

on another list, the resident holistic vet shared a few notes she took this week on kidney disease. she okay'd forwarding, so here it is:

Begin Quote:

This week I'm attending a feline medicine seminar and this is the latest on cats and protein and kidney failure:

1.  It does not do ANY good at all to start a cat *without* kidney failure on a kidney-type diet, and even very *high* protein diets do not appear to predispose an animal to kidney failure.

2.  Using a low-protein and low-phosphorus diet appears to help with control of symptoms, but only if the BUN (blood urea nitrogen, a measure of urea--a liver conjugation of the bacterial breakdown of protein, supposed to be excreted by the kidneys) is at least 60-80.  Less than that, and protein catabolism becomes a problem as the animal breaks down its own muscle to supply its protein needs.  This goes for younger animals also.

3.  These diets have not been shown to increase life span of these cats.

4.  There is a lot of controversy about protein restriction:  too restricted, and the animal will end up in worse shape due to not having enough groceries for normal metabolism and tissue repair, and will suffer from decreased blood pressure from decreased oncotic pressure which reduces blood supply to the kidneys which can further damage the kidneys and...well you get the idea.  Too much and you overload the kidneys and blood with urea, which is toxic.  Older animals were thought to need *more* protein due to decreased absorption from the gut, but now they think they need the same as other animals, 28-32% on a dry matter basis (see Pitcairn for the calculation of dry matter content of foods).

5.  Everyone agrees that it is *very* important to provide protein of "high biologic value" which IMHO is *not* by-products but actual, real meat from an animal with a name, like turkey or lamb, this may include clean organ meat. So we're back to a home-made diet.  The by-product issue is not one of organ meat versus muscle meat, but the serious problem of by-products containing unbelievably disgusting and horrible things like decayed meat, tumors, dead dogs and cats, spoiled supermarket meats *with* styrofoam and plastic wrappings intact, road kill, and 4D animals (dead, dying, diseased and disabled) which can mean high levels of drugs, products of decay, metabolic toxins, dead fetuses with their high levels of hormones, euthanasia drugs, and other delicacies.  I'm coming out soon with a paper that will blow the socks off the pet food industry; the Brits have already seen me rant about the evils of commercial food on "World in Action" on TV a couple weeks ago!

More later, kids, I'm falling asleep at the keyboard and have to be up at 5, oh joy!

Hugs,
Dr. Jean
--
Jean Hofve, DVM
jhofve@