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| Author | Topic: Mystery Traditions and Incunabula |
| Pahana |
posted 3/16/01 10:58 AM
PART 2 In our previous post, we established that the 'tantra' of modern day spiritual 'masters' of the yuppie franchise variety (and some who honestly believe they have the truth) is not equivalent to the tantra of the early Indian races which made use of it. However another point can be made: the 'tantra' spoken of by the document is not an exact match with the tantra of historical times either. Nevertheless, examining the writings about what was supposedly a group of renegade researchers... we find features in their course that parallel this tantra perfectly, as well as establishing certain other aspects. The first clue we have is that the document speaks of the first stage of the course parallelling average spiritual work aimed at 'refining the faculty of attention'. The attentive faculty being described is the ability of the mind to focus without reservation on a single object of concentration. This is the major objective of dharana, the last 3 stages of Yoga (ending in one of the various forms of samadhi). The general objective is to enable the force known as the Will to more easily effect the causal plane. One of the lesser known keys of the Rosy Cross (I think it is in the Theoreticus grade) speaks of the Universe as composed of progressive levels of energy (energy being defined as the force in Kether that radiates via Chokmah, the force known as energy in the famous equation of general relativity). In other words, matter is a very dense or contained (perhaps by Binah) form of spiritual energy, as Einstein established in the early 1900s. The thing that isn't generally known however is that the various 'levels' of energy are under the control of the level just higher, for example the mental (etheric) plane affecting the physical plane. I'm not exactly sure how this relates to the aspects in the lower half of the tree (the etheric is in Hod if I remember correctly), but what it means is that the Will affects the physical via the inter-relationship of the different levels. Another key which I think is in the Grade of Magus relates to sex, explaining 'the force which reproduces things is the force that allows miracles to be worked'. This is the energy of Yesod, and considering the inter-relationship of thought, breath and semen in Yogic esoteric texts, its likely that Hod affects Malkuth via Yesod, or something similar. Consider what this means with regards to their 'tantrik' activity. Our next clue comes from their hint of things considered paranormal. The abilities they mention parallel the siddhis of Yoga - especially those acheived via khecarimudra and pranayama. This mudra, along with other important exercises, is supposed to produce: 'absence of disease', 'rapid healing' and 'inner heat'. The inner heat particularly is thought to be caused by transmutation of semen or sexual energy. When, during proper yogic health, the breath is held, heat builds up. This can be witnessed by people in good health in everyday life, although in yoga, the texts say that it is on a larger scale and that 'luminous effects' accompany it. What does all this mean for I&OH? Well, for a start it gives us a basis from which to work from, as they use terms from yoga throughout the document, including satchitananda (although in a rather strange way). Thus we can assume that the I&OH group that wrote the documents have a basic understanding of the concepts involved in Yoga. There are some hermetic aspects that have to be taken into consideration, especially the fact that we do not know their exact understanding of terms such as satchitananda, which may be different in traditional yogic doctrine. Nevertheless this is the ground floor entry level. The factor of mind altering drugs is an interesting one. As soon as one brings this into the equation all sorts of suspicions arise. Sections on the (currently) illegal aspects could have been added at a later date. Alternatively, the mention of traditional intoxicants like pot/hemp could indicate the group's desire to resist authority and challenge the consensus. At the time the commune was supposed to be in existence, the 'War on Drugs' was in full swing, and it becomes easy to see how the traditionally unaccepted drugs could have worked their way in as an insurrectionist tactic, even despite their obvious properties of opening certain areas of the brain. Of more interest is their use of drugs not generally considered by the mainstream in these days, such as vasopressin derivatives and various hallucinogens. The mention of beta endorphins is odd - this is reminiscent of the underground S&M scene where pain releases endorphins to give people a high of sorts. Whether or not similar methods are used remains to be seen. The point to remember with the drug component (which I won't go into in great detail here) is that the aim is non ordinary consciousness. Drugs are taken not for 'getting high' but to produce a specific form of sensory stimulus which allows the Will force to create the right signals to interact in the desired way with the physical level. Understanding the nature of these effects can only be done via experimentation. Finally I should underline the point they mentioned: "In this project, the kind of awareness fostered by meditational techniques plays a part just as vital as the 'techne' of machines and the pure mentation of mathematics." This is a blunt statement of fact, indicating the ways in which Incunabula draws from the traditions of the past in order to pull off their feats. The obvious effect of this is that one will never reach Ong's Hat until the will is developed to the level at which meditational practices can be performed at any desired time, and the Senior Warden of the West is in complete control of the Junior Warden. 142=7. |
| dante |
posted 3/16/01 6:48 PM
Another great post Pahana. -------------- the mind is an antenna and control of the mind allows control of the antenna -------- The "default" mind hears nothing but static because it is tuned into all channels simultaneously... -------- yoga and meditation give the user a frequency dial... -------- ...now instead of one noisy channel you have an infinite number of very clear and fascinating radio programs... -------- ...to reach harmony and enlightenment one must make a "quantum leap" from the current mind... -------- Lao Tzu stated - "Tao cannot be shared, it cannot be taught - it must be intuitively understood" ---------- How does the western mind understand and operate? --------- How did the �Age of Reason� destroy the western mind to the potential of the Tao? --------- Science was flawed and is only now being corrected, instead of suspending disbelief in what we could not prove � scientific theory was used as a weapon to destroy all that could not withstand its edge. 5000 years of knowledge at once both anecdotal and validated by millennia of practice fell before its edge like the onslaught of the holy crusades. What could withstand the validity of reason, the rescuer of the mind from superstition and the Dark Age? --------- Kapra and �The Tao of Physics� describes what we lost in the slaughter of old knowledge � both the good and the bad. In the midst of 5000 years of snake oil was a plethora of knowledge that we are only now as westerners realizing is valid. Science is just now catching up to what we had discovered intuitively from the dawn of mankind. --------- WHAT THEN IS THE INCUNABULA? --------- How are memes created? How are archetypes created? Is it possible to think and create for a century long goal? --------- The authors of the Incunabula � and they are not who we think they are, understand both the truth and the western mind. They recognize the need to operate within the boundaries set by the �Consensus Reality of the Age of Reason� and have written the Tao Te Ching of the modern age. ---------- Just like any piece of information that is created to survive it must insert itself into the unconscious and that is done by great story-telling � not by factual presentation. The information that needs to be there � is, the rest is a vector used to convey the virus into the mind. How much and what of Ong�s Hat are real events and what is used to convey? ---------- The reason Yoga, Meditation, and Intuition appear consistently throughout these works is because they all have the same roles they have always had on the path to enlightenment � what has been added is Science and how it is only just now proving what we knew intuitively 5000 years ago. -p |
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Harla Quinn (Moderator) |
posted 3/16/01 8:05 PM
GREAT POSTS, GUYS! So much to grok from both of you! Wonderful! Right on the money! Thanks. http://www.incunabula.org |
| Harla Quinn |
posted 3/20/01 3:27 AM
"The progress of true science lies in its gradual extension to the objects of the kind of knowledge by which the subject perceives himself.� Gurdjieff�s teaching was the culmination of Le Grand Jeu, because it actually puts the Great Game of being into play. And now "we" are the players? http://www.gurdjieff.org/nicolescu2.htm [This message has been edited on 03/20/2001] |
| Harla Quinn |
posted 3/20/01 3:28 AM
Leary believed that through a "coalescence" (I prefer the term "convergence") of Eastern insights (Tantra) and Western intelligence (psychology) that the "phylogenetic inheritance" could be activated. Any insights on this? http://www.spress.de/beatland/homes_of/the_beat/margin/leary/info.htm |
| dr wu |
posted 3/21/01 3:47 PM
From In Search Of The Miraculous by P.D.Ouspensky From What Are We Living For by JGBennett ( a student of G.) G. often returned to this example of 'prison' and 'escape from prison' in his talks. Sometimes he began with it, and then his favorite statement was that , if a man in prison was at any time to have a chance of escape, then he must first of all realize that he is in prison. So long as he fails to realize this, so long as he thinks he is free,, he has no chance whatever. No one can help or liberate him by force against his will, in opposition to his wishes. If liberation is possible, it is posible only as a result of great labor and great efforts and above all of conscious efforts towards a definite aim. Man suffers from a tendency to self-deception and illusion for which he cannot be blamed except insofar as he fails to struggle against it. It is hereditary from his remote ancestors. The concerns of the founders of the great religions was not to offer man something external to himself, a body of doctrine, an institution, a 'something' to occupy a certain place in his life to safeguard him from particular dangers and to assure him particular benefits; it was to set him upon the..way.... |
| dr wu |
posted 3/21/01 3:51 PM
Hmmmm....trouble with format I think...the first thought was from Ouspensky, the second two from Bennett. ---------------------------------------- Is there a trick to posting here? |
| Tlon |
posted 3/21/01 10:53 PM
Hi Dr,
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| rhythmage |
posted 3/21/01 11:35 PM
the prison metaphor sounds alot like the buddhist (mahayana) concept that every sentient being is born with buddha nature. They tend to put all the weight of losing touch with this origin of perfection on the ego and perceiving oneself as individual due to the tangible evidence of bodily form and the recurrent loops of the mind (alot of the language of this often seems like a refutation of popular hinduism). I guess you could say that the buddhist take on it is more of an exile than an imprisonment, which starts to sound like the garden of eden ideal. So if you consider the ideas of the zohar (language isn't life) inherent in these earlier writings of judaic mysticism (I'm not sure exactly how it's divided or interpreted, but most of the tanakh/oldtestament is history, whereas the torah(pentateuch), represents the law or path?), which is also a key to understanding taoism/mahayana buddhism, then the linguistic entrapments of the mind enslave/exile us from our own innate enlightenment body. Of course, there's the conflict of spiritual path vs maintaining culture/lineage/bloodlines which is very prevalent in judaism as well as hinduism, and which buddhism, tantra and kaballah somewhat contradicted in their stance of innate enlightenment and oneness. That's always a bear to deal with. The 'great religions' have the essence of this concept of innate enlightenment within them, yet they also cross over into political control. If they didn't, we wouldn't know about them anymore because big egos w/ big weapons and torches would have snuffed them, which has happened, at least to some extent. So, when the spiritual path becomes corrupted w/ memetic control structures aimed at selfperpetuation of ideals, forms, etc. does the original essence get lost, requiring a new path? And the last question is that if we as individuals cross back into the innate state, how can we bring the rest of us along? If we don't, are we doing nothing more than separating ourselves from the rest of humanity (think of the tao te ching chapter describing how lao tzu feels sadness and isolation through all his experience on the path of sage while common people, all wrapped up in ego and memetic control structure seem happy)? Then again, going w/ the status quo keeps that egoic separation very well preserved and guarded. So, endgame scenarios aside, what's the way out for humanity? (And if you think that the mahayana tradition would say that, having attained enlightenment you're free, that's not so. While you've freed yourself from the uncontrolled samsaric cycle, the bodhisattva commitment to bringing about enlightenment for all sentient beings keeps you coming back, because your buddhahood isn't really complete without the enlightenment/unity of us all. And of course, this extra cycle can be seen as a meme for propagating the buddhist tradition, as well as a doorway for ego to sneak in because then you can say 'I'm the reincarnation of < PS Bodhichitta is more or less considered the path of/to a Bodhisattva. Bodhichitta describes the emotion and bodhisattva is one who has cultivated and committed themself to it. I also see a correlation between this bodhisattva vow to return everyone to enlightenment and this statement on what makes a good shaman that I read as one who can integrate anyone's experience into their own experience/mythos/models... RM
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Harla Quinn (Moderator) |
posted 3/22/01 4:13 AM
Good points, all. rhythmage, it is indeed a very big "bear". (sigh) I ponder these very same questions with a very heavy heart. |
| Pahana |
posted 3/22/01 6:44 AM
Interesting about Gurdjeff and his quote. I believe that was also written in a magazine I read as a quote from Dr Wilhelm Reich. 142=7. |
| Pahana |
posted 3/22/01 10:48 AM
part three coming 'real soon' as they say... just need to finish the week of mental masturbation at work ;-). rhythmage - your ideas are interesting. Did you ever frequent efnet #Ascension before its 'Fall from Grace'? I have a feeling I've seen your handle before. I'll have to disagree with certain aspects of the last big posts, for reasons I'll make clear in my upcoming post. I will ask one thing though - have you ever considered the impact of the Tamil Siddhas on Indian thought and culture? You might find an interesting opposing view to traditional theosophical Buddhism here... 142=7. |
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Harla Quinn (Moderator) |
posted 3/22/01 4:23 PM
Thanks, Pahana for all your dedicated and hard work. You've certainly enlightened me. |
| dante |
posted 3/22/01 8:09 PM
Rythmage, Good post, your views on the "responsibilities" of an enlightened seeker show you have a very good understanding of the Path. This view ties, in my mind, directly to the mindset of the creators of the Incunabula � since the Tao cannot be taught nor shared how do you help bring others to the path? Additionally, since there is an increasing understanding of the way with practice but not a gradual increasing understanding of the Truth, how can you empower the mind with the capacity to make the conceptual leap to the Truth? If you understand a given mind, can you present a �palimpsest� that works on multiple levels within a cultures given consensus reality to break people free and give them the tools to make the leap themselves? As for comparing Buddhism to Taoism, that is similar to comparing Gnosticism to Roman Catholicism. Taoism was sublimated to Buddhism in the 2nd century with the same shift of power from the people to a centralized source that Christianity went through in the 4th century. With the addition of deity figures much of the core of Taoism was lost to religious ritual. -p |
| rhythmage |
posted 3/23/01 3:37 AM
dante, I wasn't paralleling tao to mahayana, just noting that both of them, plus kaballah interpret language as an abstraction of life. From there they go their own way with that idea but the essence is shared. As for taoist longevity, you're right, it didn't do too well at integrating with native traditions. Buddhism, on the other hand was noted as being an ancient path that shakyamuni rediscovered(?) It's largely technical, more or less using yoga as the path. Yoga had already integrated with the nomadic Indra culture which became hinduism (I know the aryan migration theory of indian history is debated but oh well) and endured that drastic change in control structure and social hierarchy, and buddhism has integrated with the local mythos of pretty much every region that it's stretched to. This is a mixed blessing, because it's so easy to get caught up in those local eccentricities (look at the political necessities imposed on zen to stay alive throughout the past millenia) but people do relate better to stories told about familiar forms of archetypes rather than ones from another time and place. And I don't really think that taoism died or anything like that. It just wasn't called taoism anymore (though with someone like huang po, I'd say he was a taoist even though he was patricarch of chan buddhism) and that's pretty much the way it should be. How to pass the knowledge/experience/... on, I wish I knew. We do our best, what more can we do. pahana, I've never heard of that board and I've never used this handle anywhere else (OK, on an RPG and yahoo mail but thats it). Maybe I have an alter ego??? Hearing the word palimpsest brings me back to the story of how Isaac Luria, usually considered grandaddy of kaballah and author of the zohar (or its most popular interpretation, it's been a while). A stranger was present while he was speaking and he noticed writings added to this man's tanakh/torah/bible. He had to give the man political favors to get him to part with it even though the stranger couldn't read the language that these additions had been written in. So most if not all of what kaballah is is just that, or at least derived from it, a palimpsest. Of course, we speak english now and want to seem scientific and not deal with things in terms of angels and demons but I always appreciated the teachings of kaballah for how well they reflected just about every other mystic/spiritual tradition's teachings. I'd say that it's a great starting point and I always come back to it. However, it's possibly the most dangerous in terms of ego entrapments and misinterpretations, especially since the rehashing of western occult mysticism and the lack of insight into hebrew and aramaic that the translators had. thanks all, lots of great stuff in here, see yall later |
| Pahana |
posted 3/23/01 10:34 AM
PART 3 While Incunabula draws many of its practices from Eastern disciplines of yoga, it appears to spurn the Buddhist idea of the body or any mental state as a prison. Many traditional forms of religion - Buddhism, certain forms of Gnosticism and Manicheanism, etc - see the spirit descending into matter and becoming trapped within it. As a result they focus a lot of their activity on trying to bring about the exact opposite - complete freedom of the spirit from the limited confines of the flesh. The mysteries have spoken of the process as well. For example, it is my hypothesis that the passage in Apuleis' "The Golden Asse" regarding the thieves threatening to sew the handmaiden up inside the body of the dead Asse, is an allegory on the senses and vices entrapping the spirit and consciousness within the limited reality of the body (the Asse being a traditional symbol thereof in the early mystical Christian reaction against the doctrines of the Church). Even the Feast of Fools, while primarily being a tool to release the frustrations of servants bound by their masters, had many correspondences with donkeys, with the congregation braying rather than saying 'Amen' at the end of the prayers. Yet if one takes an objective approach to the situation, it is easily seen that spirit and matter are inter-related terms. The Tamil Siddhas seem to come closest to Incunabula in this sense in their insistence on maintenance of the body as a tool towards obtaining immortality. Patanjali was involved with them. Their texts smack of the beginnings of Western alchemy. Its even contended by some authors that a derivative of Mercury Sulfide (the actual physical compound, and not an allegory on it) was used as a mechanism for prolonging life. The exact process by which this was accomplished is not known, but what is known is that the Tamils not only practiced Hatha Yoga and other bodily techniques, but also had a vast system of medical knowledge. They show striking similarities with our Rosicrucian movement, the Manifesto of which stated that the members 'healed the sick; and that for gratis'. Given the reputation of the Bengali Tantrikas who the founder of Incunabula was reputedly initiated by, it would not be surprising if Incunabula was actually able to bring the attitudes of the Tamil Siddhas into the 20th century. The prison metaphor has its merits and value, in that it allows us to recognise the limitations of our traditional outlook on ourselves. Modern man as he stands, is horribly weak. Our ability to focus intent, to visualise, to concentrate on a single task, is limited by the social constructs of the society we live in, which demands constant alertness to our surroundings. Our bodies are much less healthy than they were in Roman times - the Roman soldiers could routinely lift 3 times or more greater than the average human today could. Stresses put on our system through eating foods which our livers must process, chemicals which weaken our immune systems and other bodily functions - all of these contribute to our current condition. Yet if we are to grow we must put aside the obsession many religions have with the prison metaphor. What is needed is an understanding of the relationship of the spirit or consciousness with the body. Various states of consciousness serve only to alter our ability to evolve ourselves and our surroundings. And our first line of defense to creating a healthy consciousness is through having the Doors of Perception cleansed. A healthy body can provide this. There is a real bio-energy that flows through our body in the nervous plexuses, the movement of the cerebro-spinal fluid, and the cells of the body. There is no need to suggest a 'mystical' explanation for the aura or other such phenomena - the idea of the Eastern and other religions stands as it is: we are centers of force, surrounded by other centers of force, who's continuous interaction (both action and reaction) evolve the set of multiverses we live in. As such, it is our duty to live our lives in such a way as we see fit, to use our energies wisely, and take our liberties with emotion, pleasure and other such things as we see fit. Such a philosophy when seen in its true light does not create what we (reactionarily) call 'evil' - for activities such as anger and violence can be seen as useful only if they produce a useful and satisfying effect to effect our situation. Usually they do not. I look forward to peoples comments on their view on how well this synchronises with Ong's Hat and how it relates to our hoped goal of realising at least some of the goals of the I.C.S. 142=7. |
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Harla Quinn (Moderator) |
posted 3/23/01 12:25 AM
Pahana, another teriffic piece. Well done. [Pahana] Yet if we are to grow we must put aside the obsession many religions have with the prison metaphor. What is needed is an understanding of the relationship of the spirit or consciousness with the body. [Harla] A Fifth Way? I agree absolutely! Let's take what we can learn from I&OH but not be limited by it nor by any teaching and continue in the tradition of seeking the unifying force linking the two closer. http://www.bmrc.berkeley.edu/people/misc/School.html |
| dante |
posted 3/23/01 8:24 PM
Rythmage, Good point about "survival" methodologies for Taoism/Buddhism. After reading your post I realized that Taoism would take the exact approach it took when encountering other deities. Why not incorporate them, they represent archetypes of that given culture. Since they are identical to all human archetypes but these people relate to them on a subconscious level there is no need to replace them with the �true gods� which neither exist nor �not�exist in Taoism. If the point is the extension of the way and not just personal enlightenment, as the Mahayana believe, then what better way then to bestow upon a cultures deities �Taoist� traits. --------- On things and writings ancient � people remember things that are sung or chanted in verse and whose message is buried in myth. There is a recent psychological study that shows the amazing power of this technique, another �science� that we have re-learned that we knew from the dawn of time. Just sing your ABC�s to see it in action. It is the ONLY information survival method that has the capacity to survive apocalyptic upheaval in human societies. In history this was much more common than today How do we filter out the images and concepts into our current reality which is fundamentally different than that of the authors and intended readers of the Kabbalah? Did they have the foresight to write in such a way that it would be relevant today? I must assume that (T)ruths are time-independent and that what is contained in these types of documents are still amazingly relevant, but can we extrapolate the meta-concepts in these ancient texts into overlays that allow us to understand them in our current consensus reality? -p |
| dante |
posted 3/23/01 8:44 PM
Pahana, VERY interesting post, but I must disagree with you on the Buddhist/Taoist goals. Yes, they do see mental states and other emotional states as a form of prison as you suggest however this is because they recognize the difference between Mind and Brain. Emotions are chemical in nature and preceded Mind. They believe that these act as filters to Mind and therefore are not real. Yoga and Meditation is not to "escape" out of the shell but to be fully IN the shell. The supreme goal is total and complete Presence, in the process of learning to meditate � which is a never ending process � one is taught techniques that at their surface appear to be dissasociative, escapist even. However these are like any type of learning, they are only tools. The goal is to be time-independent, you are absolutely aware of NOW and nothing else. The path leads through some interesting mental states, but many of these are known as �Pitfalls� on the path and are meant for exploration not fixation. The Taoists recognized the flaws inherent in denying the reality of the body and nature and sought to be completely immersed in NOW. A by-product is that you become omnipotent and omniscient � when you are NOW you are all things. This may appear to be a denial of the flesh but in reality it is a love affair of the true reality. On the scientific side this is demonstrated by the electro-gravitic theories dealing with the �electro-gravitic� cloth. We are all a single EG wave and everything that�s exists is simply a knot tied in the wave a �soliton� � and since we are all not separate but actually one if you are NOW you are all things � God. ------------- -p |
| Pahana |
posted 3/23/01 9:43 PM
Dante, I agree to disagree here then. Nevertheless my main point was to show what Harla has referred to as a Fifth Way (a play on Gurdjeff's Fourth Way). Emotions are very real, no matter what any religion might think of them. Its the attempt to control these emotions into predetermined pathways - the channelling of the astral force and the sexual libido into predetermined pathways - that is the primary cause of the often ineffective systems of thought control that have arisen as a result of religion. A Fifth Way, rather than suppressing these emotions, would put thought to use in satisfying the urge in some manner, assuming it did not degrade the organism in any way. If I seem overly scientific or bland in saying this its only because I believe people are not used to mixing scientific objectivism and religion. John Ernst Worrell Keeley had similar ideas to what I'm evolving as to 'centers of force', but I think perhaps Keeley could not shake his society created arbitrarily value system of morality or extricate it from his physics. In evolving a system that works for any purpose we choose we must examine things objectively. Otherwise we get what hundreds of others have come up with over the years - 'it only works if you are in service of the highest good of the light eternal'. Such a system is not practical, but moral. Practical scientific system and moral value system each have their own merits and should be dealt with separately imho. |
| rhythmage |
posted 3/23/01 10:16 PM
I wouldn't say that emotions are simply chemical or that they are by definition a realistic expression of who/what we are. I consider existence in any guise as an expression of the true nature of what we are (call it god, buddha nature, microcosm or whatever you like). The problem seems to arise in perceptual abstraction and the extreme malleability of the human brain. It's a sad reality that human emotion doesn't necessarily represent the true nature of an individual. Our emotions relate to our abstract interpretations of things. So we can experience emotions that are contrary to our true will or innate nature due to that fact that 'reality' is being experienced through a filter of our genetic/memetic evolution and education (there's alot more to it but I think we all recognize that). So, if you grew up in a TV culture (or were integrated to it, it's a very hungry abstraction) then your notions of humor and beauty would be very tied into it, even though it isn't REALLY who you are. And someone in western civ (not a history class) would be expected to bless you if you sneezed to keep demons from getting you and you would be very upset if you weren't blessed because it's just not polite. That's not the emotional reality (which might be our need for social acceptance/belonging or maybe it's just too abstracted to speculate on) but it's what's experienced. Looking through our history, it seems that to escape this we need to stop the emotional response to abstracted perception before we can eliminate the abstraction and get to the real essence of of emotions. I've got more to say but I have to run, until later then. |
| dante |
posted 3/24/01 1:24 AM
Ahh, ok I agree with you on the problems associated with religious based mind control through denying or guiding emotions. Sublimating the sexual urge for example, which judging by the latest events with Catholic priests has been an abject failure and coverup for years. ---------- However, in my experience, it is a misconception to apply these to Taoism. (I am not versed enough in the observances and differences between Buddhism and Taoism to speak intelligently about Buddhism) During meditation practices, for example, the goal is not to fight emotions that arise but to observe them in a detached way. To see your internal chaos as you would observe it in someone else � impassively. Instead of being controlled by them you acknowledge them for what they are and let them pass as the wind passes. You are not �channeling� or directing your emotions you are letting them come and go as they please but observing instead of reacting. --------- In �Tao of Physics�, Kapra deals with the issues associated with diverging or converging views from science and spirituality and makes the point that these exhibit a unnecessary tension on each others development. Only when both are sufficiently advanced will one realize that they actually have the exact same goal and eventually will also have the exact same methods. However, in the interim, how does one resolve the conflicts that are exhibited by flawed incomplete Belief systems and insufficiently advanced science? Is the solution as Pahana believes to separate them? Or is the solution to integrate them more wholly? ---------- I agree with you Pahana, they are no longer mutually exclusive as we are beginning to realize through the recent advances in PQM, however neither are they advanced enough to realize that they share the same goals and vision. ---------- Like two squabbling toddlers they need to sit in their respective sides of the sandbox and build their castles, once they have spent enough time building and occasionally throwing sand at each other maybe they will realize that although their castles may look different they are both made of the same substance. -p |
| Pahana |
posted 3/24/01 1:40 AM
In response to rhythmage's views on the Boddhisattva, see Chapter 7 of David Hedsel's "The Zelator" for a contemporary Western outlook on this. The part about the sulphur, on pages 412-418 of the paperback edition, is especially poignant, although not without its own attachments. 142=7 |
| Pahana |
posted 3/30/01 11:24 AM
PART 4 (CONCLUSION) What can we learn by studying the Incunabula documents? Most importantly perhaps, what do they insinuate for us and what possibilities do they open to us for action? As a result of looking at the documents in the light of some aspects of the older Mystery Traditions we have developed themes and lines of thought that diverge towards a conclusion, one which is continuously evolving. In sort it goes something like this:
These principles are applied in the light of some other facts - first, the teachings of the traditions on refining the attention faculty and modifying the effects of the Will or perception via various methods. Secondly, our desire to reach a specific goal - whether it be a Siddha or simply good health. But there is more to it than this. Concepts such as 'desire demands the other', sex as a tool to higher consciousness rather than a degradation of it, and so on. In a way the authors of these documents, whether they wanted to or not, opened up a Pandora's box when they wove the many counter-culture elements together within it. In the vast world of routers, switches and hubs it has developed a life of its own. What I see in it may differ from yours, mileage may vary. What I see is an invitation to a unification of science, religion, culture and such. Unification into a new 'uncommon sense' where Truth and truth are wed. Our science has a lot it could teach spiritualism, and vice versa, spiritualism has a lot it could teach materialism. All that is required is an unbiased outlook and a desire to learn what tangible phenomena we are talking of when we say 'energy' or 'aura' or 'vibe' (for example). I'm sure all of you have noticed the weird energies going around lately, as a result of disruption in the grounding of Malkuth. Combine this with the political hotcakes we are experiencing and its a wonder theres not more New Age Yuppy Franchisers talking about End Times, Earth Changes and Transformations. Something is certainly afoot, whether we phrase it in the buy and sell manner of the New Agers, or couch it in more cautious terms such as a 'Nexus Point' or hiatus in the development of man. In these conditions it can be equally foolish to act as not to act. And yet we must act, wisely, if we are to get the best effect out of the strange things going on at the moment. To me the need for practical application has never been so obvious as it has recently become. Whether this yet needs to be a group effort, or whether individuals are required to put their own practices to work first, is something for us to think about. But I certainly think (with my Sun and Mercury only 15 degrees apart in Sagittarius) that proper communication and elaboration of one anothers practical methods is important. And often these forums can be too restrictive for full elaboration of these ideas, despite the freedom they give one to put ones point across. In summary, I think its become clear what the goal of Incunabula is and now its time to implement and live it. Whether or not this is merely a reflection of my own inner state I don't know, but it certainly feels to be correct. The need is to unify science, religion and culture and redefine the way we interact to become more liberating rather than restricting, according to our own tastes. Liberation has been a continuous theme in the mysteries, and perhaps the Masons can be forgiven by us for helping the Luciferian forces, for co-creation with the all powerful Fire is exactly our goal. Nosce te Ipsum - Sic Itur Ad Astra. AD ASTRA! 142=7 |
| dante |
posted 3/30/01 6:32 PM
Is (a study of conjugations) ----------- ----------- The world is changed, the individual learns while tending his own garden. ----------- All those who choose to lead and choose to teach are missing the importance of their own lessons. ----------- Perceptions are not, yet am I Truth ? To see one must be able to see. ----------- Faith by any other name but that which we have assigned it. Is, is the secret to the state change. ----------- -p |
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Harla Quinn (Moderator) |
posted 3/30/01 7:05 PM
Well said, Pahana. Your observations about the possible opening of the Pandora's box by interweaving counterculture and *other* elements wthin seems to be a recurring theme among many of late. Not wishing to sound the alarmist, I will not comment until assessing these factors more fully. Yes, attempts at "unification" is a prevalent theme captured from the days of Dee and Bruno, the Rosicrusians, through Leary, et al and, now, in the guise of post quantum mechanics. As to your comments about implementing practical applications - it has weighed heavily on me. The internet serves an initial useful purpose of bringing these ideas and thoughts to the surface, kinda like a "basin for strange attractors" in chaos parlance. How to accomplish an interface spanning physical space? Though I've recently been examining various applications of VR and cyberspace toward achieving this end, the "human factor" remains a necessary and integral missing component of the equation. If my prognosis regarding the swiftly advancing event horizon were more optimistic, I would simply state that future visionaries and "seekers" may well develop these solutions utilizing the groundwork laid here. It is a frustrating dilemna without the requisite "tools" needed to develop empirical results. After attending the play "Flowers for Algernon" last night (doncha love synchronicity!), it gave me pause once again to consider the ramifications of accelerating consciousness while taking for granted that our psychological-emotional conditioning will also "come along quietly". Studies in mind and consciousness expanding techniques, including the use of psychotropic drugs and entheogens, don't adequately address the accompanying adverse impacts or seem to "bootstrap" emotions with enhancing consciousness. It's not my intent to disregard Leary and Alpert's work in this field, only that their methodology and observations seem more in line with those of neurologists and behaviorists. I'd certainly appreciate other views on this. |
| Pahana |
posted 3/30/01 9:50 PM
Harla, I've spoken with a friend only last night (yeah I love synchronicity ;}) regarding exactly this subject. I was speaking with him of my earlier experiments with cannibus, and correlations with states acheived without drugs by both of us. His opinion was that drugs had occasionally formed the basis of an 'initiation', such that the psychonaut gets a taste of the higher realms and makes it easier to re-experience this state via natural means. Not only Leary experimented with this, but also Alexander Shulgin and co, the famous chemist. His PIHKAL and TIHKAL books are interesting, and yet it is obvious that in both the drug method and the 'natural' method, there needs to be an extra element. We've also experienced this element in modern science as well, in the New Age idea of our science being too far ahead of our spirituality, emotional development, etc. In the process of learning about oneself though, the emotional development is exactly what happens. Nosce te Ipsum, the process of self discovery, happens in both cases. One has to find ones own pace here, because the processes of gathering knowledge and learning about oneself are somewhat mutually independent, and complement one another. Or at least, thats how I see it. 142=7. |
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Harla Quinn (Moderator) |
posted 3/30/01 10:02 PM
Agreed. Simply opening the perceptual "doorways" isn't enough. You can address this much better than I, but Eastern traditions and philosophy seem much better suited to gaining a foothold on emotional equilibrium, though I never discount Jung's warnings in this regard. |
| Pahana |
posted 4/1/01 0:10 AM
While we're on the subject of Mystery Traditions and Incunabula, the 'Freemasonry and Catholicism' link in the Rosicrucian library mentions great things about iron. And yet iron is known to be one of the substances extremely important in the great work. 'Black Dragon covered with scales' seems wholey appropriate for oxidised iron with the sparks that fly forth from within. Interesting that iron is one of the most magnetic elements known to man. Hmmmmm :) 142=7. http://rosanista.tripod.com/library01.htm |
| dr wu |
posted 4/1/01 1:40 AM
I am a man of few words so I quote Bruno: ------------------------------------ "Mind at the center of All containing within itself All that it is the center of." |
| dante |
posted 4/1/01 5:27 AM
I would like to hear more from Bruno - I am not familiar with this author. That is a very Taoist statement and very appropriate to the discussions at hand, nice post thank you -p |
| dr wu |
posted 4/1/01 9:43 PM
Namaste dante, ---------------------------------------- Harla has written about Giordano Bruno in an earlier thread and knows more than I of his work but he believed that if man was the great 'miracle' mentioned by Hermes then the discovery of his own inner powers would turn him into a god. This is the theme of his major work, The Art Of Memory where he states that if man can grasp this 'universal plan', by means of a magical art of memory, then he will be able to tap the power of the cosmos. One must understand the 'seals', the images of the stars, to be able then to open 'the black diamond doors' in the psyche. Such a man would bring salvation to the human race. Bruno's ideal was Egyptian hermeticism and he was openly hostile to Christianity which unfortunately was his undoing. --------------------------------------- Harla and others have stated that the aim of IOH was unification of science, religion and culture. This could be so even if it was just an exercise in self-transformation and not a 'real' event. My knowledge of IOH is far less than harla and others here so I do no feel I am qualified to comment on it. But, I am by no means certain that a 'unification'of these three 'paradigms', science ,religion, and culture is or should be the ultimate goal of our personal quests or that of the himan race. As dante has pointed out the 'aim' of eastern traditions is transcendence of maya(illusion in vedanta)to discover the 'true self'. They 'believe' that all aspects of daily reality, science and culture included, are illusions in form and are being 'seen' wrong by us. While I understand the similarities to the western occult traditions( hermeticism, magick, kabbalah) I do think there are some areas of contradiction between the two approaches to self-realization. The 'hermetic magicians' like Agrippa, Paracelsus, Dee, Bruno, and more recently Crowley and Regardie bacame attached to their paths and to the initiatory rites and tools they employed. I do not believe they were free in form nor had they discovered true freedom from the known. While I have always been fond of western hermetic ideas I see a clearer path in Tao, zen, or Vedanta which tells us to not become attached to the fruits of our labors and remember to leave our boats behind after we cross 'the river of transformation'. Nevertheless I will continue to read and learn here from my peers and fellow seekers. 'Seek your own salvation through diligence.' Buddha's parting words |
| Pahana |
posted 4/1/01 9:53 PM
dr wu... people misunderstand what the Eastern philosophers meant when they say 'illusion'. And I certainly don't think we can apply all of the tenets of Eastern culture to our own development. After all, some of them were designed specifically for people living in the type of environment they lived in. Dante - I haven't heard much from you in the Travel Tech thread. I would have thought you would have had a whole heap to say about that sort of thing ;-). Whether as a Knight or a 'Night'. I'd like to hear your thoughts in the practical area. Peace, and remember the words of Yoda ;}. 142=7. |
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Harla Quinn (Moderator) |
posted 4/2/01 1:55 AM
[dr wu] ..if man can grasp this 'universal plan', by means of a magical art of memory, then he will be able to tap the power of the cosmos. [HQ] Well said and thanks for noting the Bruno info on "Menu". Where the "Travel Tech" trail seems to be headed right now is in the direction of developing mneumonic devices (like Bruno and Burroughs/Gysin) which can "entrain the brain" to enable us to "tap into" those non-local realms. However, we must understand those processes if we want to progress this further toward being able to store and recall those experiences. If, as noted by Marshall McLuhan, we have reached the praecipe of our physical limits (the speed of light) by the use of this medium, we have to find ways and means of "folding" space-time in much the same way as the spice-users did in Frank Herbert's Dune. Can we do that without injesting entheogens? I truly don't know. [dr wu] While I understand the similarities to the western occult traditions...there are some areas of contradiction between the two approaches to self-realization. [HQ] I totally agree and we continue to make these assertions that it is up to us to either resolve the contradictions or find the best in the underlying foundations of both East and West without fully embracing one as opposed to the other. Though I disagree with a lot of it, there is much to be found regarding this in Dr. Ralph Abraham's theories on the pre-patriarchial "Orphic Tradition". (see below) In this same regard, I am greatly surprised that no one has yet mentioned Mark Pesce, the VR guru (whom I greatly admire) who has been instrumental in bringing Gibson's vision of Cyberspace into fruition. For an excellent discussion of holosthesia and his "Telepresence" experiments and his discussion of connectivity and interface and the boundaries separating Psi - Psychology, the mental state, the human world view, or mind abilities and Fx ("Fecks") - the human biology, the raw organs of perception, read "Pathogenic Ontology in Cyberspace". http://www.hyperreal.org/~mpesce/fa.html Taking this a step further, I have been keenly exploring a workable interface between Vernor Vinge's "intelligence amplified" or IA theories and what David Chalmers calls the "binding problem" in neuroscience - the problem of how the brain integrates different pieces of information about the same object. "But every time our ability to access information and to communicate it to others is improved, in some sense we have achieved an increase over natural intelligence." Vernor Vinge I will interject here something I didn't mention in the Bruno thread, which is quite relevant. You mentioned Bruno's interest in Egyptian hermeticism. In fact, Bruno was given the privilege of studying the Corpus Hermeticum allegedly from 4000 b.c.e. which is believed contained ancient knowledge of the Goddess partnership society which preceded the patriarchal *takeover* (the partiarchial myths being the foundation of Western thought for the past four thousand years). Many, like Dr. Ralph Abraham, believe that the rise of the patriarchy began a "process" which suppressed this ancient knowledge and he calls these remnants the "Orphic tradition". This tradition is relevant in that it also represents the foundation of chaos theory, heavily embedded within I&OH. I am particularly biased toward Bruno, being one of the first to openly identify, discuss and seek an understanding of the phenomena of synesthestia. "From the variety of all things a singularity emerges in the form of synesthesia: The order of the cosmos is rational, as it is in the likeness of the natural, of which it is the shadow, as it is the image of the divine, of which it is the vestige". Giordano Bruno For any of those wondering why Bruno was led to the bonfire, the Church's accusations against Bruno included: teaching the existence of a boundless universe filled with a countless number of solar systems; that the earth was not the center of the universe, but a mere planet revolving around the sun; teaching the doctrine of reincarnation; denying the actual transubstantiation of bread into the flesh of Christ; refusing to accept the three persons of the Trinity; and of rejecting the virgin birth of Christ. http://www.hyperreal.org/~mpesce/fa.html |
| dr wu |
posted 4/2/01 3:24 AM
Pahana... people do misunderstand the eastern mystics(I would not call them philosophers) but I 'believe' their dharma is relevant to all humans and transcends cultures. Truth and wisdom are timeless. --------------------------------------- Harla... I do think we can 'fold time and space' without the aid of substances. Have you read Autobiography Of A Yogi or Ram Dass book about his guru Neem Karoli baba or heard of Saitha Sai Baba? They could manipulate reality as we know it for they had reached the place where All is one as Paul had in Dune. Perhaps science and mysticism can be united...I suppose it depends on how we define them, does it not? I do not know whether this coming 'cyber age' is a good thing for us. I fear it could take us farther from Truth. Time will tell. Have you read The Holographic Universe by Talbot? How about The Implicate Order by Bohm? These tie into IOH and it's unification paradigms. Do you personally feel IOH was just an exercise in what ifs? Or just a game? -------------------------------------- 'After all of our exploring we will return to the place we started and know it for the first time'. T S Eliot --------------------------------------- 'Anything more than the truth would be too much'. Robert Frost --------------------------------------- namaste, |
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Harla Quinn (Moderator) |
posted 4/2/01 5:24 AM
I'm very glad you brought up the holographic paradigm theories. It is something we haven't discussed in great detail on the boards. Your insights are welcomed! Yes, I am very familiar with Michael Talbot and David Bohm, but especially Karl Pibram's work on holograms, approaching it all through the "back door" from reading Karl Pibram's theories on "translating" the signals while looking for my own "codex" to the structure of language and how we perceive/receive the interaction of language and matter. (I have been working on a very long post for over a month in my attempts to set these ideas out clearly.) As to your questions regarding I&OH - at this *time* I won't comment because the "answers" are infinitely more complex than one or the other - hey, it's all "fluid". (smile) Instead, I'll offer this quote: "Although current scientific understanding is incapable of explaining [paranormal] events, experiences like this become more tenable if "hard" reality is only a holographic projection. Perhaps we agree on what is "there" or "not there" because what we call consensus reality is formulated and ratified at the level of the human unconscious at which all minds are infinitely interconnected." Michael Talbot http://www.hyperreal.org/~mpesce/fa.html |
| M. Nasruddin |
posted 4/2/01 8:01 PM
This infinite interconnectivity of course being a perfect breeding ground for emergent properties, rather like a highly complex AI system, some might say. Speaking of which, could not one, theoretically, given the proper access to certain cutting-edge developments in said technologies, be able to cultivate the development of certain emergent properties in such an enviroment akin to the ways in which an alchemist of old may have prepared various miraculous sustances in an alembic? The similarities just struck me as rather interesting, perhaps a good metaphor for certain aspects of this "mystery". |
| Pahana |
posted 4/3/01 9:33 PM
dr wu - the problem as I see it with applying the eastern ideas to a western mindset is that much of eastern yoga is misunderstood. A personal understanding of what one thinks it is does not cut it, you have to read and research until you find a full understanding of the system. Symbols like the lotus and the names for the chakras, etc, are bound up in the culture of that period in history when the yoga was created, and the language of their scriptures is the same type of language as our alchemists - an initiatory language, so not all of their documents are in clear light of day language. Some require understanding of the Twillight Language, only attained after some practice of dharana (something I have not bothered taking the time to do yet). For the Western individual we have a rich cultural heritage stemming mainly from Egypt and Arabia which is rarely used in its fullest capacity these days. It is said that our way is the way of individuation rather than group mind. I'd suggest while some eastern materials may be useful as a tool, our primary focus should not be the eastern one. The need to continue the tradition of Fire towards co-creation with the YHVH is important, and this means learning how to do this. |
| Klyph |
posted 4/4/01 1:38 AM
[Edited by HQ] [This message has been edited on 04/04/2001] |
| Pahana |
posted 4/4/01 2:29 AM
Appearances can be deceiving Klyph. Remember that... with the current situation regarding Incunabula its pretty important. 142=7. |
| Klyph |
posted 4/4/01 3:31 AM
. http://www.gnosis.org/ecclesia/homily_Lent1.htm |
| rhythmage |
posted 4/4/01 6:32 PM
What's the difference between ain soph aur buddhamind true will kundalini kaballah ... If the difference is any more than sociocultural apparent difference due to language and environment, then I'm Papa Legba! "didn't mean to take up all your sweet time |
| Pahana |
posted 4/5/01 1:11 AM
Simple. Ain Soph Aur is a concept, kaballah is a Christianised spelling of Qabalah, which is an English translation of QBLH with vowel marks. Kaballa and Qabalah are in many cases completely different sciences, one (the K) originating from the other (the Q). Kundalini is a concept regarding vital energy and certain physiological concepts, totally unrelated to the Ain Soph Aur. True Will relates to a Westernised concept of the Ego, or the reflection of the desire body on the plane of 'spirit' (a concept difficult to explain as yet outside of certain circles). All these concepts have their own meanings and to trivialise them all into a single belief system would be criminal. Use them for purposes other than the original design for sure, but never trivialise them or we lose proper understanding. Cheers. 142=7. |
| rhythmage |
posted 4/5/01 2:28 AM
stare at one spot for long enough and the individual digresses into infinitude. stare at two spots simultaneously for long enough and individual and infinity digress into each other. Dont make more OR less of anything, all paths lead to the same way. Get too wrapped up in the semantics of a given path and you trivialise what's beyond the path and start spinning around in loops of your own creation. PS The western vs. eastern concepts of the ego are interesting. East says ego is the delusion of individuality, monkey mind, etc. West says it's getting carried away with individuality. Is that really so different minus their socioculturareligioeconolinguistic anomalies? |
| Pahana |
posted 4/5/01 8:34 AM
rhythm, The east has no concept of 'ego' spoken of in the scriptures originally. The term ego is a Western term, Latin in fact for 'I'. The eastern concept of maya more relates to the fact that the mental conceptions appreciated as a result of our senses are dependent on the scope of our sense organs and interpretation of our sensory input data, and as such are arbitrary. West realises this but says 'so what?' Western Ego (with a capital E) is not solely about individuation. The Ego in the West is the term for the reflection of the Desire Body in the realm of spirit. The best way to explain this is that the body and the spirit have different requirements for life or happiness, and so the Ego is the reflection of the animal Desire body. This concept has absolutely NOTHING to do with any Eastern concepts, except perhaps the Kama rupa and other such concepts. More later on. http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2694878,00.html |
| Pahana |
posted 4/5/01 12:24 AM
Continuing... Eastern schools of thought speak of detachment, of the arbitrary nature of the sensory experience, etc, and even speak of their own version of the Path of Return. But they do not speak of Ego or ego. These are terms invented by Westerners or mistranslations/misunderstandings of western and eastern terms in an attempt to present Eastern philosophy in a Western light. This does not work. Some concepts in Eastern philosophy are in fact so abstract and intellectual that one would have to study with an Eastern yogi, and at that one from a true initiatory line, in order to have any possibility of understanding them. As to how all this relates to Incunabula, it's important to have a solid theoretical background just as the practical background is also important. If we don't understand our past history in the Wisdom Traditions in its proper historical and practical contexts, make progress in the methods of meditation and psychic development become difficult. Understand that I am not trying to split hairs or be a nitpicker here, nor to criticise what in some cases are very interesting comments. I am trying to ensure that we do not get lost in 'modern' definitions of these traditions which have evolved through misunderstanding. I also think that scientific backups would be useful, eg related to blood's function in the vital body and how that relates to Fred Bell's research. Respectfully, |
| Pahana |
posted 4/5/01 12:29 AM
The concept that comes closest to the Western Ego is the ahamkara, or I-maker. This still is not monkey mind though :) it is however the force that motivates mind, desire body, etc. Once this thread is closed (next 4 posts) we can start in Mystery Traditions and Incunabula II. |
| rhythmage |
posted 4/5/01 6:16 PM
just to round off here, I agree that ego doesn't really make sense in eastern context (the hindu brahman/atman thing can tie in, if that's what you're looking for, doesn't have to, but then again it's very possible that the indra religion came from further west and just ended up in india) and that some form of acquiring understanding is necessary, which in our modern world is generally through interpreted and translated writings. I've studied lots of these sources, from kaballah and qabalah to various buddhist traditions to taoism (well, this was more intuitive evolution from childhood on but I have read taoist writings) to different yogas to music, art, science, magic, many guises of many things. The essence of what I've gathered from all this is that the essence of the origin of the source is key to developing understanding. I think i'm lucky in that i've maintained some connection with those raw intuitions of who and what we are, but it can make acceptance of the modern world damn hard. So I am speaking from a particular viewpoint, where all the info sources have become excessive and reflection beyond them (still keeping their essence, just not all the linguistic eccentricities) is the key. In general this is the goal of meditation, no? PS the various concepts and practices i threw out in my last few posts were random, not specifically grouped to best show the commonalities between all spiritual paths. |
| Klyph |
posted 4/5/01 7:07 PM
From 'Tales of Power' pgs 272-278 The Nagual is the unspeakable. All the possible feelings and beings and selves float in it like barges, peaceful, unaltered, forever. Then the glue of life binds some of them together and a being is created. That being loses the sense of its true nature and becomes blinded by the glare and clamor of the Tonal, where all unified organizations exist. That cluster is called the bubble of perception. The secret of the double is in the bubble of perception. Through the Nagual, the cluster of feelings can be rearranged to any form and made to assemble instantly anywhere. In other words, one can perceive the here and the there at once. The Nagual is witnessed by "will", and the Tonal by "reason". |
| Pahana |
posted 4/8/01 9:00 PM
mage, To some extent the 'essence of source' seems to be a factor, but its not the only one for sure. The extra stuff that makes the writings seem 'confused' or conflicting can't be ignored... just look whats happened by the New Agers doing cursory readings of old religious texts - we have so many people saying 'its all relative man!', 'peace love and harmony are all we need', 'i am a nature lover' (while packing away a couple of packets of nacho corn chips and 2 litres of Coca Cola), and so on. The fact is, its not all relative (there are certain things you can do that will lead you away from a particular goal), we don't need peace love and harmony alone (hate, anger and other emotions still exist - we need to develop proper foresight and rational skills, emotional maturity etc), and we need to learn proper usage of natural resources and health for our physical and vital bodies. My next article, in Mystery Traditions and Incunabula II', should be about the Sufis and Incunabula. This avenue does relate to the 'source essence', which you speak of. I, like Harla, am not going to be posting as much soon. I've found a need to begin applying what I've learned in order to find Hurqalya, and maybe eventually conversation with the Qutub. I've now found the major link between West and East however, and I think that this is the main thing I've had to do. The rest can wait. Peace, |
| Pahana |
posted 4/8/01 9:01 PM
Just closing this thread... lets continue in Part II. http://www.suspensionofdisbelief.com/matrix/faq.html |
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