******************HOBBIT**************************************

Session Start: Thu Sep 11 00:16:46 1997
*** Now talking in #TheWizardsWay
*** hobbit (~wavedata@mountain.magna.com.au) has joined
<hobbit> hi
<GrayMind> Hey there!
<hobbit> Perhaps u noticed the Topic in Ancients ... I am to
   give a talk tomorrow evening (CST)
<GrayMind> What will your talk be about?
<hobbit> The elements of nature
<GrayMind> Sounds interesting, may I have a preview?
<hobbit> or would u rather I discuss?
<hobbit>How about our relation to the ancient elements of nature
<GrayMind> What's that?
<GrayMind> Of course, hobbit was just talking about earth,
  water, air and fire.
<Shane> hello hobbit nice to meet you
<hobbit> Where were we .... OK .... the problem that the
   ancients had was their cosmology ... it was geocentric
<hobbit> hi shane
<hobbit> u understand "geocentric"?
<Shane> not actually
<hobbit> it means - shane - that they thought thew earth was at
   the very center of the cosmos
<Shane> aha
<Shane> no the center of the cosmos is the crystal city of light
<hobbit> That all thinks - sun, planets, star, etc ... all
   revolved about the earth
<hobbit> this was found NOT to be true - but only a few
   centuries ago
<Shane> I am Christian is that bad?
<hobbit> no - tis OK :)
<hobbit> What has this to do with the elements of nature you may
   ask?
<GrayMind> All spiritual paths are "ok"
<hobbit> Well ....
<^alex^> ;)
<Shane> no not all graymind I got on a bad path can't get off
<GrayMind> Oh?
<^alex^> shane we've discussed this before...it is your choice...
<GrayMind> Well, perhaps you may learn something tonight that
  may help.
<hobbit> The element WATER - is naturally occurring and all know
   this
<Shane> yeah I am/and/or was messing with stuff I shouldn't have
   tread where I treaded
<hobbit> So is the element AIR
<GrayMind> Are other elements not natural?
<Shane> yes but fire is unnatural
<hobbit> EARTH is everthing here in the terrestrial environment
   other than water and air .....
<Shane> very unnatural
<hobbit> this leaves (thanks Shane:) - the FIRE
<^alex^> fire is natural...because it naturally occurs...by
   nature creating it...
<hobbit> Now in ancient times, fire was things like the forrest
   fire, the campfire, etc
<Shane> no alex not the fire we are talking of is unnatural
<hobbit> but it was also the light of the sun and the moon
<Shane> cept the white fire
<hobbit> however- as i have already explained - the ancients had
   a geocentric cosmology (all except a few)
<Shane> no alex not the fire we are talking of is unnatural
<Shane> hugs hobbit
<^alex^> hobbit would you explain what you mean by geocentric?
<Shane> hobbit I have a question, can things be changed?
<GrayMind> I'm interested to learn your different definitions
  for natural & unnatural fire.
<hobbit> yes shane
<hobbit> of course
<Shane> good
<hobbit> sorry about delays - I am at work at the moment
<hobbit> Back 2 it  then ....
<Shane> that's okay hobbit
<hobbit> FIRE
<hobbit> There is terrestrial fire and there is the cosmic fire
<hobbit> Question for you ...
<Shane> I saw it hobbit weird sparkly fire like that off a
   grinding stone all around us
<hobbit> Do you understand the difference between the
   terrestrial and the cosmic environments?
<Shane> yes hobbit
<hobbit> tell me then
<Shane> cosmic aka space is like water things are different many
   planes
<^alex^> terrestrial would be those that are more material in
   nature...the cosmic would be more of the etheral realms...
* hobbit congratulates shane and alex - essentially correct
<Shane> terrestrial space like humans think, earth also physical
   part
<hobbit> but simpler ...
<hobbit> we can say the following
   nature...the cosmic would be more of the etheral realms...
<hobbit> the sky is the cosmic
<hobbit> simple
<hobbit> Above/below
<hobbit> the ancients separated .... the land and the sky
<Shane> right hobbit also dreams are cosmic, and physical is
   terrestrial
<^alex^> spirit/physical
<hobbit> then it bacame the earth and the heaven
<hobbit> and now 0 according to ecological science - the
   terrestrial and the cosmic environments
<hobbit> yes alex - you have gone ahead
<hobbit> let us first keep to the specification of the "Outer
   Nature"
<^alex^> hehehehe...sorta familiar territory...
<Shane> okay
<hobbit> in the world upon which we live we have the terrestrial
   environmnet - the land, oceans, atmosphere, etc
<hobbit> above this is the cosmic environs - space (The final
   frontier :)
<hobbit> Now what is the essential element of life in this outer
   world and where does it come from????
<Shane> hobbit light
<hobbit> correct!!
<hobbit> SUNSHINE
<Shane> hobbit crystal city aka God
<hobbit> SUNSHINE is the cosmis fire
<hobbit> cosmic fire even
<Shane> hmmm okay
<hobbit> Shane: Again u go ahead - we first look at the outer
   world, then the inner world
<hobbit> So ...
<hobbit> The elements of nature are the same as they were in
   ancient days but
<hobbit> we now know they have a different
<hobbit> cosmology - for the FIRE is at the center
<hobbit> The sun - or the solar system - is that about which the
   terresteirtal environment orbits
<hobbit> So ...
<hobbit> Also .... the sunshine is the ecological source of
   energy
<^alex^> hmm...I'd have to disagree to a slight degree...
<hobbit> alex?
<Shane> what is the black fire then?
<hobbit> u tell me :)
<Shane> I don't know but it hurts
<^alex^> I feel that source of beginning is that which is pure
   energy and we call that energy love...god...etc...
<hobbit> OK sure ...
<hobbit> This I can appreciate
<hobbit> however I am only (first) examining the OUTER WORLD
<hobbit> The INNER WORLD will be discussed 2nd
<Shane> okay
<hobbit> We must start somewhere and develop this
<^alex^> the outer world is energy which is vibrating at a lower
   resonance...
<Shane> hobbit are we all lightbeings whom helped make the
   cosmos with our feet?
<hobbit> I have chosen to start from the OUTER
<^alex^> therefore that which is "physical"...
<hobbit> in time we will know shane
<hobbit> alex: Yes - physical as in the subject matter of the
   sciences
<Shane> hobbit okay I remember some before here, but not much
<hobbit> Howevee the nature of LIGHT or SUNSHINE or EMR is still
   perplexing to science
<GrayMind> True
<hobbit> Is LIGHT a wave or a particle, etc
<Shane> energy a force same as sound
<hobbit> There the edges of "physical" break down
<^alex^> it is the absence of dark...
<Shane> can use light to make ships go lightspeed it is a simple
   process
<hobbit> Yes - indeed - the cosmos is an ocean of light
<hobbit> To now summarise .....
<hobbit> The elements of nature are as follows .....
<hobbit> EARTH, WATER and AIR are the elements found in the
   terrestrial environment
<hobbit> FIRE too is found in the terrestrial environment, for
   sunhsine permeates the entire earth, however it is SOURCED
   from the cosmic enbvironment
<hobbit> This "structure"according to environments must be
   recalled again
<^alex^> and without which it would die and become barren...
<hobbit> when we look at the INNER environments
<Shane> is throughly confused now
<hobbit> yes alex - the sun is the source of light and heat -
   and without it the water cycles would cease, the winds would
   cease, the planets would not graow and all things would perish
<hobbit> plants
<Shane> is that why heaven is returning to the earth hobbit?
<hobbit> heaven was never separated from earth shane .....
<hobbit> have you not heard the saying .....
<hobbit> Sunshine on earth
<Shane> yes
<Shane> but I saw the crystal city land in a vision I had
<hobbit> sunshine = starshine = the nature of the greater
   universe
<Shane> a spaceship big, but bigger inside than out and
   everything that was, was indie of it
<Shane> I mean inside of it sorry
<hobbit> perhaps u see the nature of the inner world ...
<hobbit> Will I relate how the above can be seen to also
   describe the INNER WORLD?
<Shane> hmmm
<^alex^> sure...
<hobbit> We have our senses ......
<Shane> sure go for it
<^alex^> the microcosm
<hobbit> Our senses stand at the interface/boundary between the
   inner and the outer
<hobbit> TOUCH
<hobbit> TOUCH is based on earth
<Shane> okay
<hobbit> internally the Inner touch is the need for FOOD and is
   expressed as HUNGER
<hobbit> all living beings have this need
<Shane> okay
<hobbit> it is ancient
<hobbit> TASTE ....
<hobbit> TASTE  is based on water.
<hobbit> internally the Inner taste is the need for WATER and is
   expressed as THIRST
<Watcher> Is hunger a need for physical food, or the energies
   within the substance?
<hobbit> it is probably the latter watcher .....
<^alex^> remember...you are what you eat!
<hobbit> One cannot live without either water or food(EARTH)
   for too long
<hobbit> precisely alex
<hobbit> SMELL ...
<hobbit> AIR is required - internally this is the breath of life
<hobbit> These 3 senses - and their inner expressions - are the
   terrestrial aspects of life
<hobbit> The elements EARTH, WATER and AIR are thus very much
   the elements of life and of survival
<hobbit> So were does FIRE fit in?????
<hobbit> Anyone?
<hobbit> ?
<^alex^> yes...and to draw the analogy within the spiritual
   realm...
<hobbit> :)
<hobbit> ok
<^alex^> Fire is that which fuels it all...it the sustenance of
   life...it is the energy...
<hobbit> yes - alex
<^alex^> behind that which is all..
<hobbit> FIRE is concsciousness
<hobbit> The flame of consciousness
<^alex^> yes...
* Watcher likes that comparison.
<^alex^> you have said touch...the basic self...
<hobbit> Consciousness is thus not a terrestrially sourced thing
   - it is a cosmic thing
<hobbit> There are a further 2 senses of man ....
<hobbit> HEARING
<hobbit> Hearing is based on vibration
<hobbit> The ear inclineth :)
<hobbit> The INNER need to generate sound is known as forming
   WORDS and SPEACH
<hobbit> At the other end of this vibrartory spectrum is the
   sense of SIGHT
<hobbit> SIGHT is based on light
<hobbit> Light and heat/sound are the higher and lower aspects
   of fire
<hobbit> Thus the elements of nature are in the INNER nd the
   OUTER environments of life
<^alex^> I also think that hearing and sight are the only ones
   that truly blend the two environments as well...
<Watcher> So, when we see, we are seeing consciousness.
<hobbit> Inn the FIRE of hearing and sight (WORDS and ACTIONS)
   is the nature of our consciousness
<^alex^> it is thru these senses that we use most to interpret
   our perceptions...inner and outer...into the conscious mind...
<^alex^> and from the conscious mind
* hobbit must go
<^alex^> Water in many philosophies also tends to represent the
   unconscious...that which is always flowing and that which can
   alter the course and shape of nature...
<^alex^> we often compare things to water because of this...the
   flow of life...the flow of events...
<^alex^> awww...must you?
<hobbit> At work and now have a problem
<hobbit> will be back in 10 mins or so
<^alex^> gees...ok...I'm trully enjoying this!
* hobbit AFK
* Watcher thinks, come back soon hobbit.
********************************************
<hobbit> Anyway, I had just about completed the notes on the
   elements of nature
<hobbit> Expept to say that "nature" is a continuum which
   extends from the outer world to the inner world (and vice
   verse)
<^alex^> did you mean self-aware?
<hobbit> yep-  self-aware :)
<GrayMind> so what we can share is how we arrived at the
  godconsciousness, it is like a map.  The problem is, though it
  leads to the same place - each person must start from a
  different location.
<dragonsng> imho, a enlightened one can "push" a devotee into
   it, but then the devotee becomes as he/she was before
<^alex^> and what exactly is maya...never had that one
   explained...
<hobbit> Graymind: Very apt .... we are at different localities
   in the environment and the journey is different for each
   living being and each person
<hobbit> One teaching might be very appropriate for one but
   entirely inappropriate for another
<hobbit> Anyway folks ---- I must go now ..... bound to catch up
   with each of you again somewhere down the track  :)
<dragonsng> bye-namaste
<GrayMind> Hobbit, I am so glad I ran into you.