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Online discussion with Fred Glaysher on talk.religion.bahaiFrom: ***** Bahai Faith *****
Subject: Re: Ideas for working with marginalized people
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai, talk.religion.bahai
Date: 2003-09-27 07:03:16 PST
If you're serious, start there.....
"The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of
differing opinions."
- Selections from the Writings of Abduu'l-Baha, p. 87
Quite a subject line.... especially the adjective and all
it's hiding and suppressing....
--
Frederick Glaysher
The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/
From: ***** Bahai Faith *****
Subject: Re: Coffee Research
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai, talk.religion.bahai
Date: 2003-09-29 07:42:13 PST
Jim,
If you're serious about dialogue, which I highly doubt, here's a real idea:
"The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing
opinions." --Abdu'l-Baha
Don't only think about it but let's hear you say something about it....
--
Frederick Glaysher
The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/
--
Frederick Glaysher
The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/
----
"Swiss Heritage" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jerry <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> > On the topic of coffee, here's an interesting company that has "a
> > commitment to improve the environment."
> >
> > http://www.greenmountaincoffee.com/
> >
> > They're in a partnership with another great cause:
> >
> > http://www.heifer.org/
>
> That's very timely for me. I'm been wanting to raise the level of my
> conversations with people in my everyday life, and one of my ideas is
> to collect topics of conversation about community life, and what
> people are doing to improve it, at all levels, from local to global.
> I'm looking at local newspapers and bulletins, and searching the Web
> for examples of international cooperation. I'll add these two to my
> list. Thanks!
>
> Jim
From: Swiss Heritage ([email protected])
Subject: Re: Ideas for working with marginalized people
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai, talk.religion.bahai
Date: 2003-09-29 14:27:56 PST
***** Bahai Faith ***** wrote in article
<[email protected]>...
> Jim,
>
> If you're serious about dialogue, which I highly doubt, here's a real idea:
>
> "The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing
> opinions." --Abdu'l-Baha
>
> Don't only think about it but let's hear you say something about it....
A lot of my work with marginalized people has to do with making room
for discussion of divergent ideas. I'm letting people know about my
own divergent ideas, online and offline, helping people with divergent
ideas learn not to be bullied, and supporting them and encouraging
them in promoting their ideas.
When I saw that the unmoderated Baha'i Yahoo! group had been shut
down, I started another one of my own, in case anyone needs it. Let
me say here for whatever it's worth, that you and Nima are perfectly
welcome to join. And to post, of course.
Last year at the unit convention I spoke to the group about my work
with gay Baha'is and Talisman liberals.
Jim
From: Swiss Heritage ([email protected])
Subject: Re: Ideas for working with marginalized people
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai, talk.religion.bahai
Date: 2003-09-29 16:17:06 PST
Fred, another thing I'm doing about the clash of differing opinions, is
that whenever someone's ideas are alarming to me, I do everything I can
think of to try to see the truth in them, to see things her way, and to
sympathize with what she says.
Jim
From: ***** Bahai Faith *****
Subject: Re: Ideas for working with marginalized people
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai, talk.religion.bahai
Date: 2003-09-29 17:52:37 PST
"Swiss Heritage" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:01c387a8$fc351aa0$15dec797@geotalk...
> Fred, another thing I'm doing about the clash of differing opinions, is
> that whenever someone's ideas are alarming to me, I do everything I can
> think of to try to see the truth in them, to see things her way, and to
> sympathize with what she says.
>
> Jim
"Alarming" implies condemnation. Is that Abdu'l-'Baha's attitude in this
quotation:
When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech
prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own idealization
may give expression to his beliefs--development and growth are inevitable.
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/AbdulB1.htm
"Try to see" is equally ambiguous.... As your statements have always
been....
What is your response to Abdu'l-Baha's Teaching above?
Frederick Glaysher
The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/
From: Swiss Heritage ([email protected])
Subject: Re: Ideas for working with marginalized people
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai, talk.religion.bahai
Date: 2003-09-29 18:37:32 PST
***** Bahai Faith ***** wrote in article
<[email protected]>...
> "Swiss Heritage" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:01c387a8$fc351aa0$15dec797@geotalk...
> > Fred, another thing I'm doing about the clash of differing opinions, is
> > that whenever someone's ideas are alarming to me, I do everything I can
> > think of to try to see the truth in them, to see things her way, and to
> > sympathize with what she says.
> >
> > Jim
>
> "Alarming" implies condemnation. Is that Abdu'l-'Baha's attitude in this
> quotation:
>
> When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech
> prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own idealization
> may give expression to his beliefs--development and growth are inevitable.
> http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/AbdulB1.htm
>
> "Try to see" is equally ambiguous.... As your statements have always
> been....
>
> What is your response to Abdu'l-Baha's Teaching above?
I've already told you everything that comes to mind for now. I'll think
about what else I'm doing, and let you know.
Jim
From: Swiss Heritage ([email protected])
Subject: Re: Ideas for working with marginalized people
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai, talk.religion.bahai
Date: 2003-09-30 04:04:51 PST
Fred, I've been thinking about some things you've said:
"If you're serious about dialogue, which I highly doubt . . ."
"Don't only think about it but let's hear you say something about it . . ."
"Quite a subject line . . . especially the adjective and all
it's hiding and suppressing . . ."
". . . ambiguous.... As your statements have always been . . ."
"Don't bother."
I can understand your frustration. You might think I'm equivocating,
straddling the fence, trying to play both sides, trying to please everyone,
evading what you consider vital issues, refusing to engage, making real
dialogue with me impossible, and helping to perpetuate injustice by failing
to speak out.
If so, you're not the only one who feels that way, I'm sure. I don't blame
you for giving up, but I'm glad you went as far as you did. I do think I
should try to say what I think about your vital issues, such as censorship
and repression in the Baha'i Faith and on Baha'i lists, pre-publication
review, the disenrollments, the investigations, the culture of denial, the
turning away, infallibility, corruption of Baha'i institutions, and other
issues of concern to you and other dissidents.
I'll be working on that. Meanwhile, here's my response so far to what you
quoted from Abdu'l-Baha:
1. I'll include it in part A of my ideas for working with marginalized
people. It's exactly what I was looking for to fill in a gap.
2. I'm looking for words of Baha'u'llah that correspond to what Abdu'l-Baha
said, which I will memorize.
3. I'll fantasize a community that practices those principles, look at what
I'm doing in that picture, and work on learning to do whatever I'm not
already doing. I'll explain more about that in another thread.
Is there something you think I could be doing about it, besides what I'm
already doing?
Jim
From: Swiss Heritage ([email protected])
Subject: Re: Ideas for working with marginalized people
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai, talk.religion.bahai
Date: 2003-10-01 15:45:14 PST
Fred, thank you. Your responses to Rod told me exactly what I wanted
to know. Rod, you're a godsend! I'm not a hugger, but I would love
to give both of you a big hug. You made my day!
Not that it doesn't grieve me, Hank, to think of you feeling that way
about me . . .
mournfully yours,
Francisco
"***** Bahai Faith *****" wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Rod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Jim wrote-
> > "A lot of my work with marginalised people has to do with making room
> > for discussion of divergent ideas."
> >
> > Dear Jim
> >
> > I have long supported your sentiments....alas your best efforts appear to me
> > too little to late.
>
> Rod,
>
> It's doubtful what his "efforts" really amount to....
From: Swiss Heritage ([email protected])
Subject: Re: Ideas for working with marginalized people
View this article only
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai, talk.religion.bahai
Date: 2003-10-01 15:54:40 PST
Fred, giving it some more thought, it struck me that you were far from
categorical in your statements about me. I almost missed the
significance of that.
In any case, there are always the letters . . .
wistfully yours,
Jim
From: Swiss Heritage ([email protected])
Subject: Re: Ideas for working with marginalized people
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai, talk.religion.bahai
Date: 2003-10-04 05:32:28 PST
Fred, I'm still working on my response to the quote from Abdu'l-Baha,
but I'll tell you what I've been doing so far.
First I want to tell you some ideas I've had about what you're getting
at.
Maybe you were looking for some kind of statement about
pre-publication review. From the consideration I've given it so far,
I would not agree to abolish it now. I would have to see substantive
responses to what the House of Justice wrote about it, in its letters
of 10 December 1992 and 5 October 1993, before I could go any farther.
I can understand very well what you've said about me. That's exactly
the way TheMadOne at Beliefnet looks to me. Toadying, evasive, all of
it. Part of the machine, all the more dangerous because of his mask
of sympathy and reasonableness. The more I think about it, the more I
see how hard it would be for someone in your circumstances to see any
more in me than that. I really don't have any better idea for you,
for now, than to ignore me. In the beginning I wasn't expecting you
to pay any attention to me anyway. It's still an honor and a
privilege for me to have received the attention I have from you.
There was another person like that in the Bridges Across the Divide
Forums, for dialogue between gay rights activists and ex-gays. There
was one person who seemed so, so reasonable and compassionate towards
gays, and so, so sincere and open and real, but she stood her ground
against civil marriage for gay couples, giving reasons that were
clearly not her bottom line. It was impossible to get to the bottom
of it, to find out what her real issue was, to dialogue about it. Her
views combined with her appearance of character provided credibility
and moral support to anti-gay crusading, while her refusal to show all
her cards made truly meaningful dialogue with her impossible. It was
frustrating, and for some gays in the forums much more demoralizing
than undisguised bigotry.
One thing that has come out of all this is that I think I should come
out farther than I have, about the injustices I see in the Baha'i
Faith. I'm working on two lines of action for that, that I'll explain
later.
----
"When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech
prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own
idealization may give expression to his beliefs--development and
growth are inevitable."
My first impulse is to look for the corresponding parts of
Baha'u'llah's writings. What is Abdu'l-Baha interpreting, what is he
explaining here, from the words of Baha'u'llah?
To do that, I first thought about what Abdu'l-Baha's words mean to me,
why they resonate so deeply and strongly with me. It's important to
me for every person to be unconstrained in her search for the truth,
so I need to look for writings of Baha'u'llah about independent
investigation of the truth. Next, I want a free flow of ideas. I
don't want anything to interfere with people learning what they can
from each other. I'm not sure where to look in Baha'u'llah's words
for that. Finally, for me, "freedom of conscience" without any
possibility of putting our beliefs into practice, is not freedom of
conscience. That has to do with the importance of deeds and actions,
the futility and even harmfulness of words without corresponding
action. I know where to look for that.
I'm planning to study that whole section of the Traveller's Narrative,
to get more ideas about where to look in the writings of Baha'u'llah.
Once I've found the writings of Baha'u'llah that correspond to what
Abdu'l-Baha said, then, with Abdu'l-Baha's help I'll see what more I
can do to practice and promote those principles and prescriptions.
Jim
From: Swiss Heritage ([email protected])
Subject: Re: Ideas for working with marginalized people
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai, talk.religion.bahai
Date: 2003-10-17 02:05:24 PST
Fred, I have some things to say to you. Since you've informed me that
my address has been blocked in your email, I'll post them here. There
may be someone whom you have not yet killfiled, who for the sake of
justice will deliver this message to you. I'm working on some Web
pages about responding to defamatory statements, and when they're
ready, I'll post our conversations, and my messages to you, on those
pages, along with a link to your defamatory statements about me on
your Web site.
1. Nothing has changed in my admiration for your labors, in my
sympathy for what they have cost you, or in the value I place on your
collection of personal accounts of abuse and corruption. Nothing has
changed in my love for the person I see on your personal Web site, in
your labors, and in Letters from the American Desert.
2. I did not initiate the conversation between us on TRB. Before you
posted your messages there addressed to me, none of my posts there
were addressed to you, or intended for you. I understood one of your
posts to me as an invitation to dialogue.
3. I responded to that invitation with complete honesty and sincerity,
in accordance with my conscience and my honest search for truth, with
trust in your sincerity, and not only with words but with actions.
When people ask me questions, I do not respond with prefabricated
answers. The way I apply the words of Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi,
and the Universal House of Justice to my life is to search for
corresponding words of Baha'u'llah, and use the words of Abdu'l-Baha,
Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice, to help me
understand what they mean and how to apply them. That's where my
conscience and my independent investigation of the truth have led me.
4. I'm still responding to your question. I'm still thinking about
the words of Baha'u'llah, corresponding to the words of Abdu'l-Baha
that you quoted, and how to apply them. They are very much a part of
my life, and always have been.
5. One result of trying to respond to your questions, has been that
I'm doing more now about openly and systematically addressing social
problems in the Baha'i Faith, and about counteracting defamation
campaigns against Baha'i liberals and other people. I'm really
excited about blazing some new trails, and it has already borne fruit
in my offline work.
Now I have a question for you.
Here are the words of Abdu'l-Baha that you quoted to me:
"When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech
prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own
idealization may give expression to his beliefs--development and
growth are inevitable."
Abdu'l-Baha used his authority to try to prohibit Baha'is from
publishing any books or articles about the Faith, that were not
approved by Baha'i institutions. Do you think he was acting contrary
to what he said about freedom of conscience?
Jim
