"Thoughts from
Friends"
Following my e-mailing my review to loved ones, I received several passionate
responses.
(pissed off, offended, defensive, agreement)
Here are some of the highlites:
MAUREEN:
"I'm gonna have to say I think to some people religion is just a comfort
thing...like denial. 'Oh I can deal with my loved one passing away because
now I know they are up in Heaven' or 'I'm not afraid to die cause I'll be
with god'. Or maybe it was made up like the whole santa claus thing to make
your kids behave. 'If you're not good you'll go to Hell' . I know my brother
used to use that one on me when I was little and it would scare me to shit.
(til I got a mind of my own)"
"Either way I think religion causes more problems than it solves. We've had wars over religion and if religion is about love and tolerance and doing the right thing then why do they have to go kill people just for challenging their theory or having a different belief. And why have I heard so many stories about priests molesting children. I could just go on and on. I totally agree with your point of view."
"Who knows. All I have to say is: The world is fucked up. God or no God."
"I'm just one big fucking ray of sunshine."
****
This next one is a
friend's response
followed by
my
reaction....
MY FRIEND'S TITLE:
Bargain in non-beleiving?
Funny thing is, I could give my entire outlook on this opinion based on this title alone because it suggests a 'bargaining table' over whether or not you believe, and that has nothing to do with the non-believer's stance. That makes it sound like non-believers have 'chosen' to be that way.No. Think about it......when you consider the 'typical' believer's description/concept of a 'heaven', it sounds pretty damn awesome, yes? Depending on who's view you follow, heaven seems to involve everything from golden arches to eternal peace and love.
And who wouldn't want that?
Therefore, non-believing isn't about 'not wanting/choosing' what is supposedly offered in heaven.......its about what we believe to be a reality...or a possibility...or something that makes sense.And heaven simply doesn't to a non-believer.
It's funny, after reading that, I realize how much I believe in God and how upset I get when people belittle God.
Well, I'm not completely sure what it is that you read,
but it was anything I personally wrote, then you're claim about 'belittlement'
is innacurate. Kindof difficult to 'belittle' something you don't believe
in.
I was in termoil last time I spoke of God, I even went as far as saying that
I really didn't believe in God! I do. Termoil or confusion,
perhaps.....
.......but not believing in a god isn't a matter of 'distance' "I even went
as far".......that suggests that non-believing is SO FAR OFF. Not at all.
Its an opinion or belief just like believing.
I would have no right to live if I denied my maker. Like a child denying
that he has a father or mother, just saying that he/she was just born out
of thin air. That's what most other people try to say, that we are just born
from mixtures of gas, matter and whatever else. Or that we were put here
by aliens??!!!
....and sperm, and an egg.....but if your parents didn't 'make' you....then perhaps you WERE put here by aliens.:P
Anyway, you're comparing god to your parents......in other words, you're
comparing a subjective faith you have to something tangible.No can do. As
for what 'most other people say'.....I can honestly say that I have never
taken a
world wide poll, but its my understanding that 90% of the population is a
believer. Then again, why is the theory of 'gas, matter & whatever else'
anymore unbelievable than a 'supreme being/creator of all'????? And keep
this in mind.....though you seem to find the alien theory probably
silly.....could that posibly be due to the fact that you have never seen
any? (then why believe in a god?) :)
Am I the only one who can just feel it inside?? Feel that there is more to us than that?? I don't think so, I think everyone feels there soul telling them that there is in-fact a God.
You're comparing biscuits and chickens here. 'Feeling more than that' and
believing there is a god are 2 different things. Hell, I believe there is
'more to that', but my feeling has nothing to do w/ a god. And in my opinion,
those who feel that 'everyone feels there soul telling them that there is
in-fact a God'.....is very close minded.
I still hold firm to not agreeing with everything in the Bible, I'm not calling
any of it a lie. Just don't agree with it. For a very good reason, the edition
I read, was not written by God himself. Why should I believe something someone
else wrote?? Many times in going over the Bible I sense an opinion. That's
no good.
Then you may first wish to deal with those issues w/ the 'prophets' and people
who DO believe in the bible.......its your cornerstone.
More over, I feel that people think too much. Everytime I try to make sense of everything I just get confused and start questioning myself.
You feel that people think too much? I haven't heard that one in a long time.
Is that even possible????
If we were supposed to have 'boundaries' to our thinking process, wouldn't
this god establish them??????
As for your second sentence....I believe that spoke bigger volumes than you
realize.
I'm not stupid, neither are most people. But we aren't smart enough to figure everything out. If we were then we would of found a cure for everything, There would be no Wars, no poverty, no prejudiceness, and a million other no indifferences.
(Again, I haven't taken a poll on most people, but I also don't feel that
believing is stupid)
And we aren't trying to figure everything out. Impossible, but it isn't the
point. Then again, you have displayed my point in that I feel that since
we DON'T have the answers to everything, we make them up. Humans just HATE
not having answers or labels. But never forget that we ARE human, and with
that comes all of those areas you mentioned. We will ALWAYS have wars, poverty,
prejudice, etc. Its inevitable.
I came to the world acknowledging God even before I
was given knowledge of his exsistance, I wasn't brainwashed with his ideas,
or forced to believe, I just did, like how I just get up every morning, God
is as easy as Getting up in the morning, he's not as difficult as
Calculus.
Too many ways to go on this one, but I'll ask this: If a god is so easy,
then do many feel we as humans could never comprehend 'his ways'? But as
I stated earlier, a god is the easy answer or way out of things that are
unanswerable.
Many people accknowledge God, but say he doesn't exsist!! How can you aknowledge
something, and disregard it at the same time, esepecially when you Have no
proof that God doesn't exsist??
Actually, non-believers don't 'acknowledge a god'. We ackowledge people's
beliefs that a god may exist, and we disagree. As for proof......non-believers
don't have that burden....believers do.
I feel that that is a waste of intulect. It's simple why give up on something that essentially has no penalties?? A lot of people say why believe?? Well I say why not?? What's hurting you to just give it a try?? It's the old Human way to give everything a try. Why not god? Give God atry.
I believe I answered this above.
The hardest thing is people need immediate results, or they need things to go right, right away, or else their not satisfied, thus they question,then start to not believe anymore, I know, I've already done this. I won't do it again.
Well, if people needed what you've claimed here, then you're suggesting people
are, for the most part 'stupid'...and that contradicts your earlier statement.
I feel that 'most people' realize that things won't go right, yet they may
still find satisfaction. Also, if people are always so ready to 'question'
or 'not believe anymore'.....think about that. Perhaps there is some validity
in that.
God helps those who help themselves. I believe in this now. Sayyour Father set you out to another country and told you to become someone without his help, only his guidance and his love, if for some reason you just couldn't make it and you father wouldn't help you, would you stop loving your father?? Stop believing in him?? They why stop believing in God??
First, are you suggesting that those who 'don't help themselves' or are not in a position to, will not get help from a god? In that case, how is god helping:
1. Murder victims
2. Rape victims
3. Disease victims
4. Starving Countries
5. etc ?
As for your anecdote......yes, you may stop loving him. As for stopping your
belief in him and comparing it to a god...again, tangibles to non. On the
other hand, you seem to forget that non-believing is NOT about 'stopping
your belief in a god' over being pissed at the hand you were dealt. And that's
my main concern w/ believers.....they simply don't understand the stance
behind a non-believer.
Just because things don't go your way, doesn't mean
their Is no God. That would be too easy, everyone knows life isn't easy.
Why not just be happy to be alive? To see the sun shine or hear a bird sing,
a baby cry? Why not glorify God for this.
First sentence: apples and oranges.
2nd: You have that backwards.
3rd: Agreed. Why the need for a god to achieve this?
4th and last: WHY
glorify a god? Why not
Thyself? Why not my parents for
giving birth to me so that I am able to appreciate those moments? Why 'glorify'
at all?
Not curse him, for losing your job, not winning the lottery, or yes even losing a loved one which is always the hardest to cope with. How about during these times try embracing him,seek guidance and support. Much like you would from any other loved one. Why is this so hard to accept?? Why do people run from this idea, or try so hard to prove it wrong??
Well, the cursing you're referring to comes from believers:
"Damn you god! why did I lose my job????!!!!" etc...
Non-believers don't have issues with that, because again...they don't believe
a god has any bearing on it.
As for 'running from the idea'.....perhaps believers do that when pissed.
Life isn't always a problem that you can correct, not everything relys on an answer or proof of existance. Many confuse God with their everyday life and situations, they feel that they should fall into one, I can see the tree, why can't I see God? I can hear myself, why can't I hear God? God doesn't work that way, so just accept it like I do.
You are rather determined to believe that the non-believer's stance is about
'problems'. Not at all.
If you don't need any evidence for your god, than I'll assume you believe
in aliens, ghosts, etc. As for 'just accepting it like you do'......
No, I will not 'accept' something that makes no logical or philosophical
sense; something I truly believe to be a myth/a story. And how would YOU
know how a god 'works'? Do you realize the amount of religions that would
disagree with YOUR view on that?
:)
Finally to all those "non-believers" out there, someone said to me that everyone
who doesn't believe in God is just mad at him. I believe in this, I think
eveyone knows inside like I do that there is in fact a God, but things go
wrong and the person blames God. So the best way they can cope with it is
just to stop believing, or say they never beleived. So tipical of a
Human.
That someone knows very little (if anything) about the views, beliefs and
stance of a non-believer. Had they understood non-beliving, they would realize
that it means that we realize that the idea or concpet of a god is impossible.
If anything, its that believer who is mad at non-believers.....and THAT is
typical.
But one day for everyone who doesn't believe, the day
will come to comfront God directly, I wonder if they will believe then??
If it is still a bargain??
LOL! You will believe as you will.
As for 'confronting a god'....bare in mind, 'he' is supposedly
ALL-LOVING.....therefore, by that theory, even non-believers have nothing
to worry about. Unless your ALL-LOVING GOD has conditions.....hmmmmm, then
I believe that wouldn't be 'ALL-LOVING'.Now its my turn for a little story......
Believers like to believe that a non-believer will suddenly pray to god when
they're in a life-threatening situation.
In my case, I was held at gunpoint years ago.
Guess what ran through my head.........God? Jesus? Heaven? Forgiveness?
Actually, all I could repeat over and over was the following sentence:
"I love you, Honey "
That was referring to my wife.:)
****
This next one is also a
friend's response
followed by
my
reaction....
Matt wrote: This movie could have easily limited itself
to the ABC Monday Night of the Week, but they instead chose to put it on
Video for all to see, over and over again.Therefore, so shall I. Matt, the
intentions of Cloud 10 Prod have been fulfilled…..they
stimulated thought, conversation, debate, and uh-ohhhh, even anger (but not
from me)
(Looks like the video idea worked)
Absolutely.
I (perhaps we all) knew that and had every intention of writing a review.
My above statements were also a way of getting the mesage across: "Believers
have a message they wish to share with EVERYONE.....so do
I".
Matt wrote: I'll begin with a few words that I feel
sum up the message within this film:
1. Fear
2. Threat
3. Selfishness & Patronization
4. Cruel
5. Punishment (from an 'all-loving God')
6. Contradictions
My interpretation of the film
1. Motivation
2. Forewarning
3. Selflessness and Invitational
4. Inconvenient (for conscious non- believers)
5. How can it be Punishment if all the believers went to a place that doesn't
"exist"?
6. Misinterpretations (on part of either the producer or the viewer)
My turn.....
1. 'Motivation' derived from FEAR. If you tell someone that if they choose
'A' they will be given great rewards BUT if they don't, its not a big deal...they
just won't receive the rewards, that can a motivation for those who wish
to have those rewards. BUT, if you tell someone that if they don't choose
'A' they'll burn in hell, be damned for eternity, etc.....
that's causing FEAR. "Do it or else".
2. 'Forewarning'? I said 'Threat'...now we're getting into semantics. Notice
that part of your word contains 'warning'.
If someone says to you "You better do what I say, or else"....isn't that
a threat?
3. See #2.....same concept. Its not an 'invite'...its a
proposition.
Again..."Do this, OR ELSE"
4. Actually, I believe you have that backwards. If anything, its CONVENIENT for BELIEVERS. believing in a god can be a very convenient 'crutch'.
5. How can an ALL-LOVING GOD send (or allow the 'devil' to take) non-believers to a hell? That is conditional love, and its a contradiction.
6. Mis-interpretation?
A contradiction is just that. Its there. But if you don't agree.....show
me how the contradictions I point out are innacurate.
Matt wrote: "Apparently (some) of those who believe the bible agree that 'believers' or non-sinners(?) will be 'saved' while the others will be punished or 'left behind'."
I see the question mark behind non-sinners, just thought I'd set it straight. Non-sinner doesn't equal 'believer'. We are all sinners with the option to be forgiven. As for being "left behind", I got one word for ya: FREEWILL.
It cracks me up how believers just love using that phrase.
Since when is it 'free'? If I give you something for 'free', there are no
consequences or conditions....its yours. However, in the religious sense,
if I 'choose' to not accept god....I am damned to hell. Again, sounds like
a very threatening proposition to me.
The question mark behing 'non-sinners' refers to the fact that a 'sinner'
or 'non-sinner' cannot be defined absolutely. Therefore, if the planet has
various religions and beliefs on what is considered 'sinning'........how
the hell would anyone know when they need 'foregiveness'??????
"Well, my Mormon church feels my beer drinking is a sin, but my Catholic church is cool with it.....uh.......what do I do????? Who's right? In one church, I'm hellbound...but not in the other church."
Perhaps the various religions may want to agree on some common ground before
they start labeling what is a 'sin'.
Now, obviously this film is very fictional, but in the event that it happens, most people (using logic) would conclude that these happenings possibly came from a disease, epidemic, freak accident….hell even aliens.
Well, I have a feeling that the folks who made this film felt pretty strongly
about the content. And considering that they purposely make many of these
films, I don't think they find it so 'fictional'.
Actually, (logic) would be the precise reason that I would never conclude disease or an epidemic because there has never been any recorded event in which a disease causing agent just made people "disappear".
Like you said.....its 'fictional'. But if you choose to live your life in
fear that it may happen.....I feel you're wasting your time. There are more
tangible things to 'fear'.
The aliens bit I could actually buy, but if one could believe in aliens without
proof, why not God????
Apples and oranges.
You're comparing another form of life to a 'supreme being'...'creator of
all'.
Matt wrote: "I'm a different person now. I should have
listened to my (VERY religious) wife."
"Its not about us. Its something bigger."
(uh, if it wasn't about 'us', then why are 'us' disappearing? A contradiction?)
That is not a contradiction founded in the ideologies
of religion. That was merely a poor use of semantics,but since we are exploring
the theme of "contradictions" I found it interesting that in the movie review
it was written "my intentions of this review are NOT to bash Christianity"
(something I appreciate), yet I felt it was riddled with sarcasm and was,
in my opinion, just a passive-aggressive form of Christian bashing hidden
behind a veil of movie criticism.
Come on, I've known you for 10 years Mattie.
Actually, look harder......why is it that my pointing out the contradictions
of this movie (or christianity) considered 'bashing'?
If you were to view a film based in Atheism, and then pick it apart, I would
not consider that 'bashing'......especially if your pickins' made sense.
Yes Aar Bro, you have known me for 10 years, therefore you should know that
I don't believe in 'bashing' religion, but if I find contradictions, I'm
going to point them out. Subjects as important and intricate as 'where did
we come from', 'the meaning of life', 'is there a god', etc....deserve and
demand a detailed, fine-toothed comb search.
Next, what does the term "VERY Christian" mean exactly?
Is there a spectrum of Christianity? Actually, I have to agree with that
point of sarcasm because self-righteous people do give Christians a bad name.
This is where logic comes in. I know that people aren't perfect (like that
fraudulent Reverend) and so if my interpretation of God is based on 'imperfect'
Christians then I will be disappointed in
God……suggestion: start with the New
Testament.<<<< :)
>>>>Amy believes in the soul. I believe it's a possibility. So
do Agnostics. Atheists do not.
MATT BELIEF POINT: Agnosticism
I'm curious.....How can one believe in the possibility of the existence of
souls, but adamantly disregard the possibility of God??
I don't believe a 'soul' has anything to do w/ a god. Since when do you need
a god in order to have a soul? If I did, I believe I'd be very
closeminded.
I think Amy believes in life outside of our planet
(aliens perhaps).So do I. Agnostics consider it but prefer evidence.Atheists
do not.
MATT BELIEF POINT: Agno
I agree with the whole concept of needing evidence.
I have been saturated with the study of physical and biological sciences
for the past ten years and wouldn't have it any other way, therefore, I pose
this:
With the universally accepted scientific theories in mind:
"Energy cannot be created or destroyed" and
"Matter doesn't just spontaneously appear, though it can change forms" (I
obviously paraphrased that one)
Where then, did the atomic materials necessary for the "big bang" come from?
Common sense points me in the direction of some type of creator. I am not
claiming that the "big bang" didn't happen, in fact as a person well studied
in the physical sciences I believe it very probable did happen, but I cannot
accept the fact that there was NOT a mastermind behind the formation of the
universe.
Absolutely. It makes sense that something CAUSED all that to happen.
In fact, we could use your comment on aliens....you
asked:
"The aliens bit I could actually buy, but if one could
believe in aliens without proof, why not God????"
In that case, if you expect me to consider a god, then why won't you consider
something CREATED god?
Also......why does this creator have to be 'supreme'.....or ALL-LOVING, OMNISCIENT OR OMNIPOTENT? A LAKERS FAN? OR A 'MASTERMIND'?
Now, I want you take a close look at the word 'mastermind'. Those are HUMAN
made words.....we have what we call 'masters' and what we call 'minds'. Perhaps
there is life outside earth that doesn't have that. Maybe they have something
else......something humans couldn't comprehend...YET.
What if there is a civilization out there that is the complete opposite of
us. Perhaps they are comprised of a majority of 'Atheistic' believers.
Seem far fetched? Are we not limited to what WE know or think we know?
You believe in an all-loving, omnipotent, omniscient, creator of all, god.
I believe its a myth.And we may both live the lives we yearn for. Yet, you
feel I am going to a hell based on my beliefs?
Someone replied to a 'believer': "You have just proven
my point about how your type assume you are right and that everyone else
wants to hear about it."
I am not bashing this person, but in another context that phrase "your type"
could be considered racist, xenophobic or chauvinistic. These are among the
most ignorant ideas people have. I won't be a hypocrite because I've fallen
into that train of thought in my life, but making a conscious effort not
to think that way has been relieving.
I agree....that opinion was perhaps as you described it. I certainly don't
care to follow that way of thinking.
However (knew that was comin'), is
"I've fallen into that train of thought in my life, making a conscious effort
not to think that way"
any different?
Also, realize that the 'your type' statement is something I hear from believers
MUCH MORE than I hear from non.
One final comment on God bashing:
If one were to believe that God were not real, that would constitute a
"non-believer".
If one were to adamantly resist the idea of God and perhaps even go so far
as to bash that concept and/or the people who believe in the idea that might
constitute hatred.
I once heard it said that the opposite of Love is Indifference, not hatred.
I think the more appropriate response for a non-believer is indifference,
like my non- belief in the Easter bunny or Santa Claus. I don't believe that
either exist, but they don't invoke a passionate denial on my part. If they
did, however, I would probably admit that there might be some other issues
that would need to be explored.
A few things.....lets get rid of the word 'bashing'. Its not accurate.
As for the word 'indifference', that could be used to describe the Agnostic
point of view. They are indifferent on these subjects.
An Atheist (and in my case, Agnatheist) simply believes the concept of a
supreme, omniscient, omnipotent, all-loving, all creator being to be impossible.
As for your word 'indiference', here's the definition:
'neutral'.
Your above statement suggests that you are 'neutral' in the belief of an
Easter bunny or Santa. That suggests that you leave room for the possibility
that they do exist.
DAMN, I HOPE YOU'RE RIGHT!
:)
Atheists, however, do not 'leave room' because they completely believe it
isn't possible.
And that would also describe me.
****
BRANDY:
Her first response:
Ok, while you're all patting yourselves on the back comparing your god to
the easter bunny & santa claus.... (do you HEAR yourselves?) save your
tooth fairy business for sunday.
In the meantime, take me off this foolish email. I am sorry. (sit on my knee
& I will let you in on a little secret of >mine that few people
accept...)
There is not a POOF!!magic "Wizard" mad scientist ~creator~ whipping up potions
to create the earth & its creatures (especially one that resembles a
human--how rude are you to assume that life, or the creation of the >world
& unexplained planet system((what's your "god" given answer to that....you
dont hear about that in the bible do ya??)) is about, & created by
>"people" in the human race) (that is just one evident self serving purpose
to >your money market idears)....
> > You have been forced to go along with *routine theories* that >unfortunately
> > your *parents* shoved down your throats all your life.
> > The world was not here for humans & human resemblances from billions of
> > years before. I never doubt valid existense of jesus & his crew..but I >also
> > dont doubt that people were BROKE back then & wrote dreamy stories & >what
> > not...> > I'm sorry, I know thats not what ya wanna hear....
> > Dont forget that in also in old times people believed chicks were always
> > witches & that the world was flat. (people will believe anything until
> > proven different) so dont get your hopes up.
> > Don't ASS-U-ME you have the answer basing your life & your offspring's >life
> > on it, that is not fair or open minded. Nature is science & reaction, >not
> > "myth" or magic.
> > I was fortunate to have been raised by those who say "You do NOT prove >you
> > are a good person by worshiping "ideas" or going to church. You make >your
> > own decisions & accept the consequence".
> > Anyways- I didnt mean to blab about nothin.
> > I just hate it when people act like puppets because they were forced to
>pray> > at the dinner table.> > Fuck that shit.
> > I am the deepest sentmental person you will ever meet & I make my own
> > decisions.
> > I dont drag from the bandwaggon for someone elses passed down idea that
> > cannot be proven. I know its with good intensions but you need to leave
>kids> > out of it.
> > I also think that children are an easy target for brain wash, so if you
>drag> > your kids into any forced beliefs tht makes you* a shitty person.
> > My mom told me i had to wait til i was 18 beofre i could join any of my
> > pal's churches.
> > She thought it would be stupid for me to play along with someone elses >way
> > of life just because it seemed fun or "IN" like most followers.
> > I am no follower.> > So enough of this
crap.
MY RESPONSE:
>>WOW!!!!!!!>>I completely dig what you wrote!
>A bit blunt and to a few more people than needed (or wished) to read it,
>but very cool.
HER FINAL RESPONSE:
ha ha! thankyou.
I did not mean to attack anyone** or sound rude at all. Infact, I felt
really bad after sending that email to people i do not know.
I felt like i made a hypocrate (however u spell that) out of myself by being
blunt on what the *facts* are. (least i am sticking to facts & not
condescending opinionated fairy tale take it or leave it attitude)
Im not the one living by the rule of "follow me with ..and give me 10%your
tithing or you wont get to heaven, or die peacefully, trying to frighten
people into buying my shit.
I didnt say anything that was not true and i especially didnt "butter" or
candy coat anything up to sound inviting....(like christians & mormans do)
Life is NOT and will NEVER be fair or deserving, it is however rewarding
depending on the paths we take INDIVIDUALLY and mentally. Thats why people
get it easily confused that to be mentally stable with hope, they must get
that from a formed union (cult of any religion) of others with desperate
need for guidance (puppeteer to pull their strings FOR them) makes it seem
like that is why they are made to feel happy- and charitable. It is just a
guise for hope for the wrong intensions. I mean, because if they ever stop
to think about it, what is the REAL point to delving into religion for
(psychotic in my opinion personally)....is it really ALL THAT just to "get
to a heaven"??? when they die??????? WHAT ABOUT THE 100 YEARS YOU MAY BE
LIVING FOR? so
I didnt mean to be acusatory, but to express the obvious facts that should
play into one's common sense.