ARGUMENT 1
*Between myself and a co-worker*
Alright…..let's have some
fun!
Since you chose to have a field day with YOUR interpretation of the bible (which in itself is quite subjective), I'll humor you by responding.
: )
Now, I'm going to comment on several of your comments, so pardon the choppiness.
<<<<God is all loving and all knowing. you have to read the bible to understand what is going on. it clearly states that god is there for us, but we have to make the first step. once we accept jesus, and the lord, he will be there for us.>>>>
The fact that you put soooooo much into a book
scares me.
The fact that we must FIRST accept means that there are CONDITIONS to this
ALL-LOVE, hence contradicting the concept of the ALL-LOVE.
Ya see, ALL LOVING suggests that there will
be love NO MATTER WHAT. NO conditions.
And truth is, there really CAN'T be conditions placed on it considering that
the good or evil within our actions is based on subjectivesness……its
non-universal or undefined. Yet religions have a tendency to want to define
what is considered good or evil…..and they clash like
crazy.
Now, let's say that you consider a serial killer or rapist an 'evil' person, and you probably believe they're headed for 'hell'. Then I ask you this…….as they walk down that 'Green Mile' to the chair, WHY is there a priest along side them preaching his Jesus stuff? What's the point? The dude sinned like CRAZY…..his soul is doomed for eternity. So, why the priest?
Ok, let's say that the bad guy admits his wrong doing and 'accepts jesus christ' while he's headed for the chair (or gas, or injection)……does that suggest that his soul will now be 'saved'? If so, then in that case, NOTHING is evil enough to send anyone to a hell…..therefore, we're ALL going to heaven REGARDLESS of our actions or heart!
WOOOOOHOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Therefore, what that means is:
1. I didn't have to believe in christ (til the end)
2. I didn't have to go to church ever
3. I didn't have to read the bible
4. I could have committ EVERY possible crime
AND MY SOUL WOULD BE HEADED FOR THEM PEARLY GATES!!!!!!!!!!!
<<<< The bible clearly says that the way to the lord
is through jesus christ. that's the way to heaven. do nonbelievers who are
good go to hell?
I don't know. evil people do. but good people who aren't believers, not sure.
I could find it for you. >>>>
No, actually you couldn't find it for me……because as a general principal it doesn't exist due to the fact that various religions believe in various things.
Then if that's the case…….who's right? Why are they right?
Exactly…..there aren't. And they aren't wrong either. No one is. No one religion (or bible) is…..hence 'faith'…….hence blindness.
<<<<it also clearly states that our pursuit of greatness is never over. and it's not so much a physical thing as it is heart felt, internal pursuit. meaning, you can't just say, " o.k., i believe in god", for a day, and expect to get into heaven. it is a life long goal. and in the process, you better yourself as a person, and in god's eyes. >>>>
First, see above.
Second…..why can't I claim I believe in god 'for a day'? I didn't realize there was a time limit/requirement. Again, what if I'm walking that Green Mile? That lasts a couple of minutes. Does that mean I'm fucked regardless? Then why in hell is that priest wasting his time?????
: )
Also, who are we to know when we are considered
'a better person in god's eyes'?
Define this 'long process'.
: )
<<<<Yes, there are wackos out there, who take it entirely too far. they give all others a bad name. so you can't judge all christians by a crazy few. and to be quite frank, you are doing that a little bit.>>>>
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
Uh…..do me favor and define 'wackos' & 'crazies'.
LOL!!!!!!!
And what makes you assume that what YOU consider those is ALSO what your god considers??????
(this is becoming funny)
: )
<<<<also, just because sue, or anyone is a christian, doesn't mean that person has all the answers. no one has all the answers. there are very few definate answers to this stuff. meaning, certain things mean different things to different people. is this making sence?>>>>
I was hoping by now that you would have realized that I have never claimed that you or anyone has the 'answers'. All I have been requesting is that your arguments make sense……NOT myth. Thus far, Christianity is based entirely on myth…..and I find that depressing.
<<<<If you have any specific questions, and are willing to hear some answers, ask away. I guarentee i won't have the answers right now, but i will find them the best i can. just ask. and have an open mind. you have tunnel vision that all christians are like the cultish mormons we grew up with. that's wrong.>>>>
Jim, that's just it…..you WON'T find them. But Christians feel this incredible NEED/DESIRE to define them…..and that's what saddens me. They want soooo bad to make sense of it all…….for peace of mind, to aleviate their fears…but it just isn't there.
As for your Mormon suggestion….that is actually (and thankfully) false.
Yes, Mormons do have their own way of thinking and believing, and it may be considered radical compared to the 'general' christian, but in the end, they all are DETERMINED to believe in the same idea or vision.
And that saddens me (as my beliefs most likely sadden you).
<<<<the bible also says do not judge. there is nothing in the bible that will hurt you. it can only help you be a better person. trust me, i am not a thumper by any means. i have just opened my mind and my heart, and am seeing things a little differently. >>>>
Funny how you'd state that first sentence……you may wish to discuss that w/ Sue since she has been arguing w/ me against what you stated. As for becoming a 'better' person….VERY subjective.
As for opening my mind a heart…..are you suggesting that I haven't?
This 'opening' doesn't require that you believe the christian ways…..in fact, some would believe that by adopting the christian ways, you have 'closed' your mind and heart. I happen to believe that sort of thinking….with certain reasons, of course.
I find it to be blind faith, as i do regarding anyone who believes in a god. I wish believers would take the time to look a bit deeper into it all....but they don't for various reasons, the biggest one being fear.
<<<<Hate to say it bro, but you are so in the dark. comparing faith to logic is immposible. apples and oranges dude. so you're saying that everyone who has faith in god is blind? I think you need to open your own eyes. and about fear. affraid of what? again, most of us are not "thumpers". god is to be loved, not feared. he isn't going to turn you into a newt for not believeing. i don't know where you get your ideas on religion and faith, but they're wrong.>>>>
LOL!!!!
I want you to take a moment and look at what you just claimed, because it is a wonderful example of a contradiction regarding 'not fearing god'. You claim that god is to be loved, not feared……yet, if my belief system doesn't coinside with that of god's……I'm fucked. In other words, in order to not be fucked, I must change my way of believing. That sounds pretty scary to me! LOL!!!!!
Ya see, that's why there is a label- "God fearing Christian". Think about that.
Tell ya what…..i'll draw it out for ya………
A. If you believe in god, you're good to go. You're goin' to heaven .
B. If you don't….you're going to HELL!!!!! You'll become a 'newt'!!!!!!!
Sounds rather threatening, doesn't it?
In fact, it truly does resemble the schoolyard bully……
A. If you do what I say; give me your lunch money….I won't hurt you. You can be in my gang.
BUT
B. If you don't do the above…..I'll kick your ass!
Does that make the schoolyard bully ALL-LOVING?
And by the way, you claimed that you "didn't
know where I got my beliefs from, but they were WRONG".
Uh……I thought there was NO right or wrong?
I thought there were NO answers?
Therefore…what makes YOURS any more right than mine?
<<<<First appeared 14th Century
1 : act or an instance of contradicting
2 a : a proposition, statement, or phrase that asserts or implies both the
truth and falsity of something
b : a statement or phrase whose parts contradict each other <a round square is a ~ in terms>
3 a : logical incongruity
b : a situation in which inherent factors, actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary to one another.>>>>
Now, I want you to pay special attention to #'s 2b & 3b.
That's what I have received from you.
Therefore, a god couldn't be ALL LOVING in theory.....its a contradiction.
> > :)
<<<<lov*ing (adjective)
First appeared before 12th Century
1 : AFFECTIONATE
2 : PAINSTAKING
-- lov*ing*ly (adverb)
-- lov*ing*ness (noun)
Where does it say that all loving means *not disciplining>>>>
Now, if I'm not mistaken, you snagged those
from Webster's (or a relative).
I asked you to define 'all-loving'…..and you literally defined it by
Human (Webster's) standards.
But aren't we referring to a 'SUPREME BEING'? Isn't this being supposed to
be undefinable, unconceivable by man?
Then……what are you defining?
: )
By the way......do didn't specify which version.....new testament, old, Koran, Mormon,
<<<<What version? Already you don't know what you're talking about. Now if that was a legit question, then I'm sorry. but if you're being sarcastic... In the Bible, the New and Old Testaments are together. Open one up and see. The Koran is not the Bible. It's the Koran. And the Mormons also read the Bible, but have the Book of Mormon as a supplement. So when I say Bible, I mean the one with the Old and New in it. By the way, the Jews are the only ones who only believe in the Old testament. And it's the same as my Old, but without the New in it. >>>>
If you truly believe your 4th statement…..you have much to learn in regards to the old and new Test.
You're right, the Koran ISN'T the western Christian bible…..does that make it any less or wrong? Have you ever studied the Eastern religions/beliefs? You will find they are quite different than 'ours', but does that make them any less 'correct'?
And WHY did the mormons feel they even needed a 'supplement'?
When you refer to 'the bible' as BOTH the new and old, you must first explain what aspects of both you are relating, because by some interpretations, they are vastly different from one another.
For example, in the Old, god is perceived as a violent, passionless being….unlike the New.
Also…..what makes you assume that the Jews are the ONLY ones who grasp the Old? Did you interview all of them? Did you interview everyone else?
: )
Can you involve in this discussion without a biasness?
>>>>Yes I can! Me of all people can have an open mind. How can anyone have an open "debate" without knowing both sides? If you were to read the Bible, just for info, and not to become a believer, you will know why Sue, and millions of other Christians feel the way they do. By the way, can you involve in this discussion without a biasness? And in order to have a true biasness, one would need to know both sides of a situation, to form a biased opinion. You have one side. You've never read the Bible, so you have no idea where Christians are coming from. >>>>
Jim, you're my brother and I love ya, but that was quite insulting.
You are suggesting that you had knowledge of 'both sides'. You didn't. You were never truly there. Ironic thing is, I will understand the bible more than most whom have read it, because I take it for what it is…..
A BOOK. Its filled w/ opinions, beliefs, politics, etc.
Now, can I discuss w/o biasedness?
As much as expected, yes.
I am not biased towards Atheism, nor am I
anti-Christian.
I have taken what I have learned from both sides, and in b/t, my thought
process, philosophy, logic and sense, and have come to my
theories.
You claim that I 'have one side'.
No, I am very familiar w/ BOTH sides…….but I believe in one of
them, as do you.
You feel I need to read the bible…..have
you read the Atheist bible?
Have you delved into the Atheistic/Agnostic side of things as far as you
feel I must study the Christian side?
I have.
And though you may be insistant on reiterating
that I haven't read the bible, let me ask you this…… why do you
cling to the bible?
Why haven't you put this much energy into Atheism or
Agnosticism?
I believe it's the same as most
Christians……fear.
Please don't claim otherwise because, thus far, all your arguments have pointed
towards it.
Now, if you insist that I explain that with deductive reasoning, so be it.
I have been studying, discussing and debating
these subjects for years now.
In other words......I've heard it most of it all.
>>>>From Jim's wife, Sue: if you have heard it all why do you keep asking? >>>>
Simple…….because I enjoy discussing/debating the Christian answers.