ARGUMENT FIVE
(A view from a preacher, and my comments)

1. God is spirit. Spirit is neither male or female.

Then we need not refer to god as a he.

USE ANY TERM YOU LIKE, AS LONG IT IS A TERM OF RESPECT

A. I consider using the term 'he' to be disrespectful to females. Plus, it is a contradiction to the
above statement you made.

B. As for a term of 'respect', that's only applicable in the event one believes in a god.

2. God is the Creator of all things, spirit and physical. The ultimate origin of everything. He created all things perfect, God's vision of perfection includes free will. It is wrong use of free will, not God, which has led to imperfection. If all things were created perfect, it would be impossible for imperfection to exist.

RE-READ STATEMENT #2 STATEMENT, CATEFKULLY.

Actually, I did.

If god is a supreme being, then god's 'vision' of perfection is the ONLY choice of perfection. Therefore, it wouldn't be a vision, it simply would 'BE'.

3. In creating humans He gave us free will, and is now giving us humans the opportunity to show our character by the choices we make. God's purpose is for mankind to choose to accept Him for who He is, and choose to accept His leadership.

In essence, and as I stated previously, god is the schoolyard bully....Choose MY way, or suffer the consequences.

IT IS UP TO YOU, YOU HAVE FREE WILL. LIKE IS GOD'S BALL GAME...EITHOR PLAY BY HIS RULES OR YOU ARE FREE TO GO SOMEWHERE ELSE

A. So, my analogy was accurate.

B. No, you're not free to go somewhere else. Apparently god sends you to hell when not playing by HIS rules. Its comparable to the bully saying "You have a choice, give me your tweenkies and live. Don't give me your tweenkies and I beat you up."

Some choice. LOL

The first step for us is to understand that our character flaws are offensive to God and to accept
Jesus Christ as our Lord (boss) and Savior (The One who reconcilled us with the perfect God).>>>

So much for being perfect.
I would think that character flaws would matter little to a SUPREME BEING.

THEY MATTER A LOT, BECAUKSE HE WILL HAVE A PERFECT UNIVERSE, IMPERFECTION IS ONLY A TEMPORARY BY-PRODUCT OF CREATION.

Define 'perfect'.

Those among us who do not accept that fact, will not be included in God's future plans, thus eliminating imperfection. When we learn to use free will perfectly, God's creation will be perfect, just as He planned from the beginning.

Perfect is subjective. God should know this, thus being gentle on us considering that perfection varies
amongst the various religions and views throughout the world.
And since ?he? IS a supreme being, he needs not to plan anything based on circumstance.

PERFECT IS ABSOLUTE, BECAUSE GOD DEFINES IT, NOT MAN. WE FIND PERFECTION IN THE APISTOLIC GOSPELS... AND HOW FAR MAN HAS MISSED THE WHOLE POINT. IF YOU DO NOT READ THEM, YOUR OPINION IF THEM CANNOT BE VALID.

So, the validity of my arguments is based solely on my reading of the bible??????
The fact that I have been involved in hundreds of discussions with believers which created discussions and opinions from me is INVALID?????
That's like stating that until I have an abortion MYSELF, I can't have an opinion.

(if my opinions are not valid, then why discuss them with me?)

<wink>

Also, earlier, you stated that perfection was based on how god invisions it. Yet here, you state that god 'defines' perfection. Those are contradictions.

Now, if god is supreme and perfect, yet he creates a being (MAN) that is imperfect, then god has NO RIGHT to judge man. If anything, GOD screwed up.

God reveals Himself in the Bible, and since He has not chosen to reveal everything, there are many things about God we mortals cannot understand, because we think like mortals!

Yes, according to MAN, god reveals himself via the bible if we choose to believe that.

NO, ACCORDING TO GOD, AGAIN YOU ARE RELYING ON MAN'S "WISDON" NOT GOD'S REAVEALED KNOWLEDGE.

ALL we HAVE is MAN'S wisdom and interpretation of "god's knowledge". Afterall, it is MAN who wrote the bible and it is MAN reading that bible.
You, Phil, are a man and you choose to believe that the god reveals himself in the bible.

The question is, WHY do we choose to believe that?

YOU CAN'T BELIEVE HIM IF YOU NEVER LISTEN TO HIM. YOU'LL NEVER KNOW WHAT IT IS HE HAS SAID UNLESS YOU READ IT FOR YURSELF.

See above.

And if we mortals can only understand the mortal writings, then how are we to know that there are immortal writings? Because the bible says so?

Very silly.

HOW DO YOU KNOW? HAVE YOU EVER READ IT YOURSELF, OR JUST LISTENED TO OTHERS?
GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE FROM THE BIBLE OF YOUR ACCUSATION.

There is no accusation. It's simply stating sense.

GOD'S REAVEALED KNOWLEDGE IS IN THE WRITINGS OF THE ORIGINAL AUTHORS.

And you know this how?

Because they wrote so?

Why do you choose to take their word for it?

MATT...
WHY DO YOU REFUSE TO READ GOD'S WORD?, are you afraid of what you might find?
It is far easier to point up man's mistakes that to investige what God has to say Himself about Himself.

First, and again, I don't believe in a god. A god simply doesn't exist. Same goes for a devil.
There is no book in this world that will change that. If I fear anything, it's the blindness within believers.
I know exactly what I will find in the bible…..mythology. I may as well read a book on Greek mythology.
But here's what I'll do for you (and various others)…….I will read the bible from front to back, and I will highlight the various contradictions and hypocracies. I will then send them to you for your responses.

Now, here's what I ask from YOU…..read the "Atheist bible".

If you are sincere in your quest for truth, then go to the Source. Other wise, you are wasting our time.

No, I am not in a quest for 'truth'. There is no truth.
As for wasting our time, I don't feel this is a waste of time whatsoever.
Perhaps it is to the believer who becomes frustrated at the non-believer for not agreeing w/ them
or pointing out discrepancies and contradictions within belief.

No "philosopher" would try to express an informed opinion on somethig he has never read.

Have you ever read the Atheist bible? The words of Socrates and Plato?

Many of my views are based on those, so if you haven't read them, then by your deduction, you are unable to express an informed opinion on MY views.

I'll be glad to continue this discussion when you have done some reading on the subject. Again I suggest you start with the book of John. The first sentence goes to the heart of your questions.

Likewise. I'll send you the Atheist Bible.

And Phil, with all due respect, it does somewhat offend me that you would assume I haven't done any reading research. Like I stated before, I didn't become a non-believer overnight anymore than you became a believer.

With that said, if you truly wish to go 'deeper' into this subject with me, be prepared to jot down everything that is said b/t us, because its rather complex and not something you'll want to lose direction or focus with.

If not, I understand.

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