Forum II: Archive 5 Page 1 of 5

Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 20:20:34 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: [email protected]
To: CD
Subject: Re: the Visions International phone number
Message:
>(sorry, still don't know how to make it a link!) Katie and Brians stuff Thanks for the link, Chris! Actually, to be honest, the ex-premie web page is "Brian's stuff." The reason I say that is because I am sort of like Brian's secretary here. If my name is on anything it ought to come second. He has done 95% of the work, including ALL the design work, and he gets all the e-mail and other associated responsibilities, like archiving the forum. Since he is the webmaster, he has control and approval over everything. Plus, CD (and I know you will be disgusted by this), I don't even have Windows 95 on my computer because I am still using a 486-33 and it doesn't have enough memory to run Windows 95, let alone the web page software.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 23:28:51 (EST)
Poster: A premie
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Reprise - Why do people like devotion
Message:
This is a repost in response to Anon asking: >> What point?? >> You speak very confidently albeit a little too briefly, but please carry on. What is it is exactly about the love between a master and a student that is so pure? >> I don't mind at all Anon. Maharaji offers something. What is it? It's not meditation. It's not abdication of responsibility for your actions. It's not a set of beliefs and explanations. It's not a religious power trip. What it IS is explained in one word... DEVOTION. The devotion I am talking about is a bond between two PEOPLE. Within that bond is a relationship that is intimate, and is known by none outside of the two. It is special because it is based upon undying and uncompromising love. In true devotion there is no demand that the bond makes upon the two except to love. And in that one demand a union is made and the two are freed. That is the gift the master gives. (Now I know someone may say, "just some more pretty sounding words". This is however real for me.)
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 00:46:11 (EST)
Poster: 70's premie
Email:
To: A premie
Subject: Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion
Message:
This is a repost in response to Anon asking: >> What point?? >> You speak very confidently albeit a little too briefly, but please carry on. What is it is exactly about the love between a master and a student that is so pure? >> I don't mind at all Anon. Maharaji offers something. What is it? It's not meditation. It's not abdication of responsibility for your actions. It's not a set of beliefs and explanations. It's not a religious power trip. What it IS is explained in one word... DEVOTION. The devotion I am talking about is a bond between two PEOPLE. Within that bond is a relationship that is intimate, and is known by none outside of the two. It is special because it is based upon undying and uncompromising love. In true devotion there is no demand that the bond makes upon the two except to love. And in that one demand a union is made and the two are freed. That is the gift the master gives. (Now I know someone may say, 'just some more pretty sounding words'. This is however real for me.) Devotion. Been there, done that, bought a T-shirt. Actually, there was only one person involved in my devotional relationship and that was me. Maharaji didn't even know who in the hell I was.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 01:20:11 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: A premie
Subject: Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion
Message:
This is a repost in response to Anon asking: >> What point?? >> You speak very confidently albeit a little too briefly, but please carry on. What is it is exactly about the love between a master and a student that is so pure? >> I don't mind at all Anon. Maharaji offers something. What is it? It's not meditation. It's not abdication of responsibility for your actions. It's not a set of beliefs and explanations. It's not a religious power trip. What it IS is explained in one word... DEVOTION. The devotion I am talking about is a bond between two PEOPLE. Within that bond is a relationship that is intimate, and is known by none outside of the two. It is special because it is based upon undying and uncompromising love. In true devotion there is no demand that the bond makes upon the two except to love. And in that one demand a union is made and the two are freed. That is the gift the master gives. (Now I know someone may say, 'just some more pretty sounding words'. This is however real for me.) I agree that you can't really have a true relationship with anyone you don't know personally. With Maharaji, he is so removed from 99.9% of the premies that they can be devoted to an absolute fantasy. I thought I experienced devotion, and it felt good, but it wasn't anything more than a one-way, very sick obsession on my part. As 70s premie said, M didn't even know I was alive. But moreover, I would ask "a premie" why, if devotion is the true thing M's trip is about, that aspirants are so carefully NOT told about it before they get involved, and why M doesn't even mention the word anymore? Why is he hiding it if, like you said, it's so great?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 02:05:56 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: A premie
Subject: Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion
Message:
I would like to thank "A Premie" for saying what the other premies who have posted here, and apparently Maharaji himself, won't say anymore. That really, what Maharaji's trip is all about is devotion of the premies to Maharaji, "The Master." It's refreshing to actually hear that stated out loud.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 02:52:06 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: [email protected]
To: A premie
Subject: Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion
Message:
Devotion is based on the practice of Knowledge. Some people do feel something deep and real from it, you know! For me it was/is something entirely unexpected, but totally familiar at the same time. Paradoxical? You betcha. Not a fantasy, but a real stirring in the heart and a gush of unique, blissful experience. Definitely beyond a mood, or emotion. The world appears luminous. There is a soothing, healing feeling of peace. It feels completely natural and right. For me, to be devoted to Maharaji means to be devoted to the practice of Knowledge, and heed what the Master has to say about it. He actually said once, 'If Maharaji were precious to you, then his KNOWLEDGE would be precious to you.' In that connection here's a story some of you probably remember well: There was a farmer in the desert who saw what appeared to be a piece of glass shining, so he picked it up. He said, "Oh, this is not precious," and threw it away and went on. After some time a jeweller came, picked it up, and said, "Oh, it is a diamond, how lucky I am!" So he put it in his pocket. They both came; they both picked up that diamond, but one was clever enough to know its value, and the other was ignorant and left it.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 06:19:28 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: [email protected]
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion
Message:
Ah, yes. Maharaji's stories. What better way to fill time, while dancing around the need to address anything directly. The nice part about them is that, while saying nothing, they represent anything that listeners want to be told. What story were you told, Mili, that caused you to take down the Guestbook at premie.com? Please share.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 07:05:59 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: A premie
Subject: Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion
Message:
I don't mind at all Anon. Maharaji offers something. What is it? It's not meditation. It's not abdication of responsibility for your actions. It's not a set of beliefs and explanations. It's not a religious power trip. What it IS is explained in one word... DEVOTION. The devotion I am talking about is a bond between two PEOPLE. Within that bond is a relationship that is intimate, and is known by none outside of the two. It is special because it is based upon undying and uncompromising love. In true devotion there is no demand that the bond makes upon the two except to love. And in that one demand a union is made and the two are freed. That is the gift the master gives. (Now I know someone may say, 'just some more pretty sounding words'. This is however real for me.) Thank you very much for the frank response. Well, I was a devotee once and I could have said the same words as you. As you may gather I have undergone some change of heart. I am a little tired of defending the depth/sincerity of my former devotion to MJ to current premies who naively and cowardishly assert that I didn't have what it took.. I have just finished talking with a premie (who was a once a good friend) who now is so opinionated that I cannot speak to him without soliciting an aggressive and blustering response.(we ended up arguing.. he walked out in a shaking rage of emotion, all after a righteous and condescending lecture on devotion) This guy tells me (very pompously and bizarrely) that I was. in his opinion, just going through the motions of devotion and never really surrendered my ego etc.and that (of course) he did to a greater extent and that is why he has the great experience and recognises Maharaji as the great Master and I don't. He is now, in my opinion deluded and insensitive to a psychotic degree. I guess I feel that the devotion that I had to Maharaji had very considerable demands which ultimately led to me becoming miserable and disillusioned. I also feel that the 'love' was pretty one-sided. (I concur with JW on this) I haven't met anyone yet who really seems free and full of love and understanding who is a devotee of Maharaji. I have met plenty in the twenty three years I have had with Knowledgee.. We will have to beg to differ. The thing that would be nice to achieve is a sense of mutual respect enough to enable some healing conversation between those involved. It really saddens me that some once good friends who used to discuss life rationally and with honest passion, have become seemingly committed hypocrites who not only cannot talk reasonably but who bear all the worrying and aggressive hallmarks of bombastic and often aggressively defensive zealots. In other words they have sadly lost the ability to consider things impartially and thereby in balance.(if they ever had it) Their bias is usually extraordinary and unhealthy. Anyway I am glad that I challenged what I thought was such a precious and sacrosanct bond, because doing so enabled me to see that I was being deluded by an uncaring power that has little to do with love or truth and more to do with conditioning people with suggestion and not an inconsiderable dose of fear when it suits.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 08:19:12 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: [email protected]
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion
Message:
Ah, yes. Maharaji's stories. What better way to fill time, while dancing around the need to address anything directly. The nice part about them is that, while saying nothing, they represent anything that listeners want to be told. What story were you told, Mili, that caused you to take down the Guestbook at premie.com? Please share. Gosh Brian, I am tempted to think that you might be a little irritated that I am posting in your 'Forum'. Nah, you couldn't be - this is the place where utter freedom of speech and thought reigns, right?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 08:32:05 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: [email protected]
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion
Message:
I don't mind at all Anon. Maharaji offers something. What is it? It's not meditation. It's not abdication of responsibility for your actions. It's not a set of beliefs and explanations. It's not a religious power trip. What it IS is explained in one word... DEVOTION. The devotion I am talking about is a bond between two PEOPLE. Within that bond is a relationship that is intimate, and is known by none outside of the two. It is special because it is based upon undying and uncompromising love. In true devotion there is no demand that the bond makes upon the two except to love. And in that one demand a union is made and the two are freed. That is the gift the master gives. (Now I know someone may say, 'just some more pretty sounding words'. This is however real for me.) Thank you very much for the frank response. Well, I was a devotee once and I could have said the same words as you. As you may gather I have undergone some change of heart. I am a little tired of defending the depth/sincerity of my former devotion to MJ to current premies who naively and cowardishly assert that I didn't have what it took.. I have just finished talking with a premie (who was a once a good friend) who now is so opinionated that I cannot speak to him without soliciting an aggressive and blustering response.(we ended up arguing.. he walked out in a shaking rage of emotion, all after a righteous and condescending lecture on devotion) This guy tells me (very pompously and bizarrely) that I was. in his opinion, just going through the motions of devotion and never really surrendered my ego etc.and that (of course) he did to a greater extent and that is why he has the great experience and recognises Maharaji as the great Master and I don't. He is now, in my opinion deluded and insensitive to a psychotic degree. I guess I feel that the devotion that I had to Maharaji had very considerable demands which ultimately led to me becoming miserable and disillusioned. I also feel that the 'love' was pretty one-sided. (I concur with JW on this) I haven't met anyone yet who really seems free and full of love and understanding who is a devotee of Maharaji. I have met plenty in the twenty three years I have had with Knowledgee.. We will have to beg to differ. The thing that would be nice to achieve is a sense of mutual respect enough to enable some healing conversation between those involved. It really saddens me that some once good friends who used to discuss life rationally and with honest passion, have become seemingly committed hypocrites who not only cannot talk reasonably but who bear all the worrying and aggressive hallmarks of bombastic and often aggressively defensive zealots. In other words they have sadly lost the ability to consider things impartially and thereby in balance.(if they ever had it) Their bias is usually extraordinary and unhealthy. Anyway I am glad that I challenged what I thought was such a precious and sacrosanct bond, because doing so enabled me to see that I was being deluded by an uncaring power that has little to do with love or truth and more to do with conditioning people with suggestion and not an inconsiderable dose of fear when it suits. Come on, Anon, (actually we all know by now that your name is Jerome, so why do you keep throwing that little cheap mystique at us) - it's time to be a little honest here. You are just being coy - of course your friend got upset if you purposely insulted his Master. Just a normal human reaction. Why don't you admit that whatever you feel towards Maharaji is directly correlated to your practice of Knowledge? The more you practice, the more sense it makes what he is talking about, and the more important he becomes in your life. When you stop practicing Knowledge, after a while you forget what it was you were getting out of it and begin wondering what it was that attracted you to Maharaji in the first place. That's just a simple dynamics of this thing. There is no devotion without the practice of Knowledge, and its really easy to forget all about the Knowledge when you lose sight of Maharaji. When you practice Knowledge, devotion flows to the Master of its own accord.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 09:28:09 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion
Message:
Come on, Anon, (actually we all know by now that your name is Jerome, so why do you keep throwing that little cheap mystique at us) - it's time to be a little honest here. You are just being coy - of course your friend got upset if you purposely insulted his Master. Just a normal human reaction. Why don't you admit that whatever you feel towards Maharaji is directly correlated to your practice of Knowledge? The more you practice, the more sense it makes what he is talking about, and the more important he becomes in your life. When you stop practicing Knowledge, after a while you forget what it was you were getting out of it and begin wondering what it was that attracted you to Maharaji in the first place. That's just a simple dynamics of this thing. There is no devotion without the practice of Knowledge, and its really easy to forget all about the Knowledge when you lose sight of Maharaji. When you practice Knowledge, devotion flows to the Master of its own accord. Mili: To quote the words from a really lovely old song: "It Ain't Necessarily So." The practice of what you refer to as "Knowledge," (which is only one legitimate name for it) is not under the sole proprietorship of Maharaji, and never has been. The generic name for the practice is "Shabd Yoga," and has been taught by a variety of masters. Maharaji is not even a very big player in that lineage. It's also quite clear from the history and research that nearly all of those masters were flawed in some personal and critical way. Which raises the question of why a "perfect" knowledge is propagated by a series of flawed Gurus. I don't make light of this issue. It is truly mysterious, like a number of things in life. More information on gurus and Shabd Yoga at The Neural Surfer at: http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dlane/
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 09:48:45 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: [email protected]
To: Scott T. & all
Subject: Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion
Message:
Devotion, love. whatever you call it, is a beautiful thing. Some people are devoted to a cause, a person, a group of people, their family and some people are devoted to a guru. The mistake is thinking that if you experience devotion for a person that other people should feel it too. I am sure that God, who is love, can manifest Himself as anything and anyone at any time. Some people love the Pope. That is real for them. Some people love Jesus. That is real for them. Some people love Maharaji. That is real for them. I think devotion is in the eye of the beholder. God, who is all love will accept our love for Him in any way we give it. My stepfather is 84 and spends his time caring for my infirm stepmother. His love and devotion to her is wonderful. He is just as close to God as the premie or the Christian. Because he is acting out of love. Surely nobody could disagree...
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 10:12:08 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Why do people leave devotion? (Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion)
Message:
>It really saddens me that some once good friends who used to discuss life rationally >and with honest passion, have become seemingly committed hypocrites who not only >cannot talk reasonably but who bear all the worrying and aggressive hallmarks of >bombastic and often aggressively defensive zealots. In other words they have sadly >lost the ability to consider things impartially and thereby in balance.(if they ever had it) >Their bias is usually extraordinary and unhealthy. >Which raises the question of why a 'perfect' knowledge is propagated by a series of >flawed Gurus. I don't make light of this issue. It is truly mysterious, like a number of >things in life. More information on gurus and Shabd Yoga at The Neural Surfer at: >http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dlane/ The only logical explanation for this is that practice of meditation and a devotion bond with a guru of that type makes you psychotic. The guru’s personality is the perfect example of that issue. I’m glad to be out of this crazyness. If you enjoy meditation, no need to abandon it. You’ll keep feeling the same thing. It’s YOUR life, it’s YOUR heart, it’s Your God if you want one. Mr Rawat doesn’t own anything, except all you’ve paid for him with your money. Claim it back. It’s not that difficult to leave the cult. Many painful events that can occur in life. Leaving a cult you’ve been lured in is a painful but healthy action. It’s healthy to recognize you’re wrong and do something about it.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 10:17:29 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion
Message:
Devotion is based on the practice of Knowledge. Some people do feel something deep and real from it, you know! For me it was/is something entirely unexpected, but totally familiar at the same time. Paradoxical? You betcha. Not a fantasy, but a real stirring in the heart and a gush of unique, blissful experience. Definitely beyond a mood, or emotion. The world appears luminous. There is a soothing, healing feeling of peace. It feels completely natural and right. For me, to be devoted to Maharaji means to be devoted to the practice of Knowledge, and heed what the Master has to say about it. He actually said once, 'If Maharaji were precious to you, then his KNOWLEDGE would be precious to you.' In that connection here's a story some of you probably remember well: There was a farmer in the desert who saw what appeared to be a piece of glass shining, so he picked it up. He said, 'Oh, this is not precious,' and threw it away and went on. After some time a jeweller came, picked it up, and said, 'Oh, it is a diamond, how lucky I am!' So he put it in his pocket. They both came; they both picked up that diamond, but one was clever enough to know its value, and the other was ignorant and left it. Maybe the farmer wasn't ignorant. Maybe there were other things that he considered precious - a good rain, a good crop, health, the earth, love for his family, or something else entirely. Maybe when he saw the diamond he said, "Oh, that's just about money." and went on to what really mattered for him. Maybe he didn't overlook or miss something. Maybe he rejected it based on his values. Maybe the jeweler is the one who is ignorant. Just another way to look at things.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 10:57:16 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Why do people leave devotion? (Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion)
Message:
>It really saddens me that some once good friends who used to discuss life rationally >and with honest passion, have become seemingly committed hypocrites who not only >cannot talk reasonably but who bear all the worrying and aggressive hallmarks of >bombastic and often aggressively defensive zealots. In other words they have sadly >lost the ability to consider things impartially and thereby in balance.(if they ever had it) >Their bias is usually extraordinary and unhealthy. >Which raises the question of why a 'perfect' knowledge is propagated by a series of >flawed Gurus. I don't make light of this issue. It is truly mysterious, like a number of >things in life. More information on gurus and Shabd Yoga at The Neural Surfer at: >http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dlane/ The only logical explanation for this is that practice of meditation and a devotion bond with a guru of that type makes you psychotic. The guru’s personality is the perfect example of that issue. I’m glad to be out of this crazyness. If you enjoy meditation, no need to abandon it. You’ll keep feeling the same thing. It’s YOUR life, it’s YOUR heart, it’s Your God if you want one. Mr Rawat doesn’t own anything, except all you’ve paid for him with your money. Claim it back. It’s not that difficult to leave the cult. Many painful events that can occur in life. Leaving a cult you’ve been lured in is a painful but healthy action. It’s healthy to recognize you’re wrong and do something about it. Mr. Ex: The conclusion that I think you made, that Knowledge only seems perfect if you're psychotic, is just a bit too glib. For instance, there are other verifications of the rather specialized perceptions involved in Knowledge-: Hear/Speak/Discourse (Word), Visual Beauty (Light), Taste (both kinds-nector), and Rythm, Music (Music) are supported by empirical evidence. In other words, judgments about what is beautiful are not completely "in the eye of the beholder," but there is a universal set of standards to which all humans seem to adhere. (See Frederick Turner.) All of this raises the question of whether or not Knowledge is a "magic trick" that plays off of the human pre-programmed neuron package of perceptual capacities. Even if that is true, however, one is left with the problem of explaining the universality of standards of percetption and affinities. Is it "designed" or did it "evolve?" That determination is up to you...
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 11:48:42 (EST)
Poster: Katie off topic
Email: [email protected]
To: Mili
Subject: To Mili (Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion)
Message:
Dear Mili - FYI and to avoid future confusion, Jerome Scribener is an alias made up by Scott P. St. Jerome is the patron saint of librarians, and Scribener comes from scribe. Very literary. BTW, someone was asking about you, so could you put the link to your home page up again when you get a chance? Thanks, Katie
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 13:49:00 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: [email protected]
To: Katie
Subject: Katie off topic (Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion)
Message:
Dear Mili - FYI and to avoid future confusion, Jerome Scribener is an alias made up by Scott P. St. Jerome is the patron saint of librarians, and Scribener comes from scribe. Very literary. BTW, someone was asking about you, so could you put the link to your home page up again when you get a chance? Thanks, Katie Yeah, Katie, sure - here's the URL: Mili's Homepage I hope you'll notice that it's just a simple ol' homepage. I tried to make it in such a way that it reflects the real me. I am not proselytizing or laying a trip on anyone there. Are you saying that the 'Anon' that I've been talking so far is Jerome Scribner and in fact, Scott Perry? That's really strange! One thing is certain, I think - if we really knew what we actually look like and who we really are, there wouldn't be so many flames happening around here. Desmond Morris says a similar thing about the aggressive behavior of 'naked apes' (humans as he refers to them in his books). Humans have a natural reluctance to kill each other - if they can see and hear their opponent. It's called conscience. If, on the other hand, the weapons of destruction function at a distance, such as with bombs, artillery and nukes, it's much easier on your conscience because you cannot really see or hear the people you are killing screaming and suffering. Also, that's why it's easier for the taxman to rip you off. He doesn't really see the people he is taxing and landing in jail if they do not pay their taxes!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 14:07:08 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Katie off topic (Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion)
Message:
Dear Mili - FYI and to avoid future confusion, Jerome Scribener is an alias made up by Scott P. St. Jerome is the patron saint of librarians, and Scribener comes from scribe. Very literary. BTW, someone was asking about you, so could you put the link to your home page up again when you get a chance? Thanks, Katie Yeah, Katie, sure - here's the URL: Mili's Homepage I hope you'll notice that it's just a simple ol' homepage. I tried to make it in such a way that it reflects the real me. I am not proselytizing or laying a trip on anyone there. Are you saying that the 'Anon' that I've been talking so far is Jerome Scribner and in fact, Scott Perry? That's really strange! One thing is certain, I think - if we really knew what we actually look like and who we really are, there wouldn't be so many flames happening around here. Desmond Morris says a similar thing about the aggressive behavior of 'naked apes' (humans as he refers to them in his books). Humans have a natural reluctance to kill each other - if they can see and hear their opponent. It's called conscience. If, on the other hand, the weapons of destruction function at a distance, such as with bombs, artillery and nukes, it's much easier on your conscience because you cannot really see or hear the people you are killing screaming and suffering. Also, that's why it's easier for the taxman to rip you off. He doesn't really see the people he is taxing and landing in jail if they do not pay their taxes! Dear Mili - Before rumors get started... No, Anon is not Scott Perry! Scott Perry just made up the name Jerome Scribener for someone else. I agree about the fact that there would be less flames if we knew what other people looked like and who they were. In almost all cases, that is, since there's always someone who wants to flame someone because of how they look or who they are!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 14:17:49 (EST)
Poster: eb
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Why do people leave devotion? (Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion)
Message:
I agree, Mr. Ex. I look back and remember the dilemma I had whenever I'd return home from a festival--"If I was really devoted," I thought, "I should leave my kids and move into the ashram." I'm grateful that I never did leave them. But I sure felt like a yo-yo at the time, very crazy and guilt-ridden. eb
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 17:47:11 (EST)
Poster: A premie
Email:
To: 70's premie
Subject: Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion
Message:
This is a repost in response to Anon asking: >> What point?? >> You speak very confidently albeit a little too briefly, but please carry on. What is it is exactly about the love between a master and a student that is so pure? >> I don't mind at all Anon. Maharaji offers something. What is it? It's not meditation. It's not abdication of responsibility for your actions. It's not a set of beliefs and explanations. It's not a religious power trip. What it IS is explained in one word... DEVOTION. The devotion I am talking about is a bond between two PEOPLE. Within that bond is a relationship that is intimate, and is known by none outside of the two. It is special because it is based upon undying and uncompromising love. In true devotion there is no demand that the bond makes upon the two except to love. And in that one demand a union is made and the two are freed. That is the gift the master gives. (Now I know someone may say, 'just some more pretty sounding words'. This is however real for me.) Devotion. Been there, done that, bought a T-shirt. Actually, there was only one person involved in my devotional relationship and that was me. Maharaji didn't even know who in the hell I was. Devotion is true love, and true love never ends. As such it is the one window to eternity that we mortal humans have. So if it ended, it wasn't devotion - sorry Charlie. And it wasn't one way. He was talking to you but you weren't hearing. That's too bad. For those who have real devotion, they DO know eternity. For them there is *NOTHING* to compare, and it could never be dispuited in their heart of hearts. It is the Master who gives the gift of devotion, because his heart is strong enough to give never ending love without conditions. Look at his personality, his actions, or the people around him and you will be fooled. Look at his heart and you will see a love you can trust enough to give yours in return. In that act there is complete liberation.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 17:48:34 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Katie off topic (Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion)
Message:
Dear Mili - FYI and to avoid future confusion, Jerome Scribener is an alias made up by Scott P. St. Jerome is the patron saint of librarians, and Scribener comes from scribe. Very literary. BTW, someone was asking about you, so could you put the link to your home page up again when you get a chance? Thanks, Katie Yeah, Katie, sure - here's the URL: Mili's Homepage I hope you'll notice that it's just a simple ol' homepage. I tried to make it in such a way that it reflects the real me. I am not proselytizing or laying a trip on anyone there. Are you saying that the 'Anon' that I've been talking so far is Jerome Scribner and in fact, Scott Perry? That's really strange! One thing is certain, I think - if we really knew what we actually look like and who we really are, there wouldn't be so many flames happening around here. Desmond Morris says a similar thing about the aggressive behavior of 'naked apes' (humans as he refers to them in his books). Humans have a natural reluctance to kill each other - if they can see and hear their opponent. It's called conscience. If, on the other hand, the weapons of destruction function at a distance, such as with bombs, artillery and nukes, it's much easier on your conscience because you cannot really see or hear the people you are killing screaming and suffering. Also, that's why it's easier for the taxman to rip you off. He doesn't really see the people he is taxing and landing in jail if they do not pay their taxes! mili dude,this is NOT meant as a flame so please don't take it that way. I agree with what you say and I think it shows that you're making progress in that to these eyes, your post read like you had seen the light and will stop insulting people from now on.cool! And I wouldn't be at all surprised if you've evolved to the point where you no longer want to ban free speech.Ultra cool! I knew you had it in you to be reasonable and I no longer feel silly for having defended you in the past.I said all along that you were actually allright underneath the nonsense,glad to see my hunch was right.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 17:54:24 (EST)
Poster: A premie
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Why do people leave devotion? (Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion)
Message:
>It really saddens me that some once good friends who used to discuss life rationally >and with honest passion, have become seemingly committed hypocrites who not only >cannot talk reasonably but who bear all the worrying and aggressive hallmarks of >bombastic and often aggressively defensive zealots. In other words they have sadly >lost the ability to consider things impartially and thereby in balance.(if they ever had it) >Their bias is usually extraordinary and unhealthy. >Which raises the question of why a 'perfect' knowledge is propagated by a series of >flawed Gurus. I don't make light of this issue. It is truly mysterious, like a number of >things in life. More information on gurus and Shabd Yoga at The Neural Surfer at: >http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dlane/ The only logical explanation for this is that practice of meditation and a devotion bond with a guru of that type makes you psychotic. The guru’s personality is the perfect example of that issue. I’m glad to be out of this crazyness. If you enjoy meditation, no need to abandon it. You’ll keep feeling the same thing. It’s YOUR life, it’s YOUR heart, it’s Your God if you want one. Mr Rawat doesn’t own anything, except all you’ve paid for him with your money. Claim it back. It’s not that difficult to leave the cult. Many painful events that can occur in life. Leaving a cult you’ve been lured in is a painful but healthy action. It’s healthy to recognize you’re wrong and do something about it. If you get the same experience from meditation after leaving Maharaji as you did before then you clearly were not experiencing much. I know cause I've tried that route too. If that's all you had, then no loss; you made the right move. If you had devotion, then you could never leave because you'd never be able to replace it by merely meditating. The pain resulting from the ensuing emptiness would haunt you. Such are the hard facts of life my friend. If you once knew devotion, you will never forget its sweet taste.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 18:08:18 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: [email protected]
To: bftb
Subject: to bro bftb (Re: Reprise - Why do people like devotion)
Message:
Dear Mili - FYI and to avoid future confusion, Jerome Scribener is an alias made up by Scott P. St. Jerome is the patron saint of librarians, and Scribener comes from scribe. Very literary. BTW, someone was asking about you, so could you put the link to your home page up again when you get a chance? Thanks, Katie Yeah, Katie, sure - here's the URL: Mili's Homepage I hope you'll notice that it's just a simple ol' homepage. I tried to make it in such a way that it reflects the real me. I am not proselytizing or laying a trip on anyone there. Are you saying that the 'Anon' that I've been talking so far is Jerome Scribner and in fact, Scott Perry? That's really strange! One thing is certain, I think - if we really knew what we actually look like and who we really are, there wouldn't be so many flames happening around here. Desmond Morris says a similar thing about the aggressive behavior of 'naked apes' (humans as he refers to them in his books). Humans have a natural reluctance to kill each other - if they can see and hear their opponent. It's called conscience. If, on the other hand, the weapons of destruction function at a distance, such as with bombs, artillery and nukes, it's much easier on your conscience because you cannot really see or hear the people you are killing screaming and suffering. Also, that's why it's easier for the taxman to rip you off. He doesn't really see the people he is taxing and landing in jail if they do not pay their taxes! mili dude,this is NOT meant as a flame so please don't take it that way. I agree with what you say and I think it shows that you're making progress in that to these eyes, your post read like you had seen the light and will stop insulting people from now on.cool! And I wouldn't be at all surprised if you've evolved to the point where you no longer want to ban free speech.Ultra cool! I knew you had it in you to be reasonable and I no longer feel silly for having defended you in the past.I said all along that you were actually allright underneath the nonsense,glad to see my hunch was right. "I too have looked long for enlightenment, and in many places - trying to make it so much more complicated than I believe it is. The times in which I've felt the strongest connection to the world around me have been the few instances in which I too have been able to muster the courage to let go of my attachment to what comes next.... What amazes me even more though is that even after experiencing such freedom, it is still very difficult and frightening when I'm faced with the opportunity to release that 'wanting' again. Even when I know what beauty and emotion waits on the other side, most of the time I turn away - and turn back to the false security of treating life as if it was a problem to be solved, rather than an experience to be enjoyed."
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