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Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive
# 6 |
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From: Feb 13, 1998 |
To: Feb 20, 1998 |
Page: 5 Of: 5 |
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Jim -:- premie
dinner party -:- Fri, Feb 13, 1998 at 23:08:52 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Fri, Feb 13, 1998 at 23:35:01 (EST)
___X -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 00:57:15 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 09:58:11 (EST)
___Jimj -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 14:05:06 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 14:49:35 (EST)
___elena -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 16:13:26 (EST)
___Selena -:- elena
-:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 16:15:11 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 16:23:38 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 17:01:32 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 17:18:46 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 17:24:43 (EST)
___CD -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 18:49:51 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 19:43:52 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 20:28:06 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 20:34:36 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 20:52:57 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 20:59:31 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 21:17:39 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 21:27:58 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 21:34:41 (EST)
___CD -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 21:40:54 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 21:58:27 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 22:16:00 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 22:17:13 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 22:22:13 (EST)
___CD -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 23:01:33 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 01:21:56 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 03:20:22 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 10:14:38 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 11:18:49 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 11:51:18 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 12:16:36 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 12:28:56 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 13:00:36 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 14:16:00 (EST)
___Katie -:- Sorry!
-:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 14:20:28 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 16:05:02 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 21:49:26 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 23:22:53 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 11:35:43 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re:
premie dinner party -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 14:54:56 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 18:31:31 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 19:00:08 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 09:23:03 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 10:09:48 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 11:18:22 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 12:06:02 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 14:28:34 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 14:30:05 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 15:08:20 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 15:16:39 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 15:24:18 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 17:19:24 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 17:44:16 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 17:47:09 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 17:56:26 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 17:56:46 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re:
Chris and Jim -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 18:02:44 (EST)
Brian -:- Paradise
is the pits -:- Fri, Feb 13, 1998 at 14:21:10 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re:
Paradise is the pits -:- Fri, Feb 13, 1998 at 14:35:45 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re:
Paradise is the pits -:- Fri, Feb 13, 1998 at 15:56:52 (EST)
___VP -:- Trouble,
too -:- Fri, Feb 13, 1998 at 16:56:25 (EST)
___Scott T.
-:- Re:
Trouble, too -:- Fri, Feb 13, 1998 at 17:58:37 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re:
Paradise is the pits -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 15:19:41 (EST)
___Katie -:- Thanks
to Brian -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 21:06:34 (EST)
Scott T. -:- A
not-so-little trick -:- Fri, Feb 13, 1998 at 10:46:31 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: A
not-so-little trick -:- Fri, Feb 13, 1998 at 12:28:04 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A
not-so-little trick -:- Fri, Feb 13, 1998 at 14:15:28 (EST)
___oiluesrdtgyuhi -:- A
not-so-little trick -:- Fri, Feb 13, 1998 at 15:09:59 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: A
not-so-little trick -:- Fri, Feb 13, 1998 at 17:28:57 (EST)
___X -:- Re: A
not-so-little trick -:- Fri, Feb 13, 1998 at 17:37:23 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A
not-so-little trick -:- Fri, Feb 13, 1998 at 17:54:17 (EST)
___An Ex with an Axe to grind -:- A
Mango's Taste -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 12:47:19 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: A
Mango's Taste -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 13:15:45 (EST)
___Katie off topic -:- Re: A
not-so-little trick -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 13:31:09 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: A
not-so-little trick -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 14:36:26 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: A
not-so-little trick -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 14:52:33 (EST)
___ex-mug -:- Re: A
Mango's Taste -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 06:19:35 (EST)
Brian -:- Forum
Reset -:- Fri, Feb 13, 1998 at 06:41:01 (EST)
___david -:- Re:
Forum Reset -:- Fri, Feb 13, 1998 at 23:54:28 (EST)
Date: Fri, Feb 13, 1998 at 23:08:52
(EST)
Poster: Jim
Email: [email protected]
To: Everyone
Subject: premie dinner party
Message:
Last night I got together with some old premie friends
that I hadn't seen in years. Kathy Beeson, who I'd bumped into last week, gave
me Paul Gobes' number. He gave me John Bufton's and both of them, along with
John's girlfriend, Joanne (cult member since '78), met Kathy and me at -- where
else? -- an Indian restaurant. It was great. We joked, reminisced, gossiped,
caught up. It'd been years since I'd seen either Paul or John, both of whom,
along with Kathy, were 'big brothers' (or 'sister') to me when I got ensnared in
'73. My last memory of John was of a time he and I were sent to some canyon
north of the city to get a bottle of fresh spring water for Maharaji. He was
visiting Toronto. We shipped it by plane, I think. I recall the crisp, misty
beauty of that canyon, late afternoon. Quiet nature, nothing but the holiest,
secret sound of Maharaji whispering love through my nostrils. At one point I
asked everyone 'how many people here think Maharaji's a fraud?' I was the only
one who put up my hand. 'Okay, how many people think Maharaji's Lord of the
Universe.' No takers. People were confused, not achingly but confused all the
same. I'd told Paul about the web site the night before and he spent a few hours
checking it out. He read Mishler. He DIDN'T read my fake interview with Maharaji
(??). He found it 'interesting.' I felt like I was sewing seeds of doubt. Then,
just before we left for my hotel to hang out further, Leon dropped by. Leon was
another of my 'big brothers' before Millenium. Leon was coming from an
introductory program at the library. Leon, unlike the others, was touchy.
'Wasn't it weird,' I asked him ' that here we were, 25 years later, no world
peace, no realzed souls and no, absolutely no explanation from Maharaji?' 'No'
he said, 'Maharaji's been the one consistent thing in his life.' 'But, Leon' I
insisted 'isn't he really the most inconsistent person you've ever heard of?
Haven't you fallen prey to the biggest 'bait-and-switch' routine of all time?'
'Jim, let's just agree to disagree.' 'Leon, if only I'd known 25 years ago that
you felt so little responsibility for what you said and did. Live and learn,
huh?' Leon's a psychologist.
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Date: Fri, Feb 13, 1998
at 23:35:01 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: [email protected]
To: Jim
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
Cruel of you to upset their little tea party; no one can
have a good pretend around you. You could be very effective at a guru program,
mixing about and disturbing people with provocative ideas but not being
aggressive enough to get ejected.
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Index
Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 00:57:15 (EST)
Poster: X
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
Effective at
disturbing people? So thats how you get your kicks and feel satisfied. But, I
doubt you will do well beyond your cheap secret voyeur chuckle. What provocative
ideas? Oh, your joking again!
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Index -:- Top of
Index
Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 09:58:11 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
[email protected]
To: Jim
Subject: Re: premie dinner
party
Message:
So, Jim, are you going to do all your propagation
face-to-face now (like M), or are you still going to use the Internet (like M
won't) ? We like having you around (well, some of us do). Take care
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Index -:- Top of
Index
Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 14:05:06 (EST)
Poster: Jimj
Email:
To: X
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
Are you
afraid to use your name? Why? Yes, some of the ex's post anonymously. They've
got their reasons. What's yours? Anyway, I'm not at all into disturbing people
per se. But I am into flushing out the truth about our fake fanatical
religion. Naturally, that means butting heads from time to time with people who
avoid or even lie about the past. You got a better idea? Anyway, you read my
little account wrong. I wasn't there for bad vibes and, indeed, it was a great
night. We all laughed and enjoyed the hell out of each other. The only prickly
moment was the one I described with Leon. Can't you see the difference? Some of
the others, while not (yet?) willing to denounce Maharaji, were at least honest
in discussing him. How about you?
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Index -:- Top of
Index
Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 14:49:35 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
Hi Katie, I'm
not sure how much time I'm going to have but I'll definitely be here to some
extent. Jim
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Index -:- Top of
Index
Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 16:13:26 (EST)
Poster: elena
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
'Leon's a
psychologist' Hopefully he is not involved in direct client treatment! Your post
sounds so familiar. Is there any point to talking to them about M? It's sort of
like talking to my more right wing co-workers abou tthe Clinton mess. I have
decided not to bother talking to premies about M. Although, I can understand
wanting to, it's just not worth it to me. Actually, I have very little occasion
to talk to them at all, living in a hick town with a premie community of about 8
hangers-on. Happy V day everybody! Now that we have seen the weirder sides of
love, we are in a better place to experience other, hopefully more human,
aspects.
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Index -:- Top of
Index
Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 16:15:11 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To:
Selena
Subject: elena (Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
That last post was from me. Missed typing in the S elena
is a nice name too, but Selena is much closer to my real name.
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Index -:- Top of
Index
Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 16:23:38 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: elena
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
I must have
done a bad job describing the evening. Really, it was great. And it WAS worth
talking to these guys about Maharaji. I could see the wheels turning a bit and
that felt worthwhile. All this trip is going to be worth to us for the rest of
our lives is a few laughs. And no one better to share them than our fellow vets.
The Leon's of the world offer less satisfaction, of course. Yes, he does have a
clinical practise. You know what's even stranger, though? Apparently Greta Van
Susteran is an Scientologist.
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Index -:- Top of
Index
Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 17:01:32 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: X
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
Chris (in
hiding): In this realm, I get my kicks in discussing Maharaji and my experience
as one of his faithful for several years. I don't think you know what I'm
talking about because I don't think you've ever risked trying it. You've lurked
and offered your inconsequential nothings for almost two years here. Never have
you actually engaged anyone in discussion, however. Will you ever? Who knows?
Who cares? You seem satisfied with your cultivated superficiality. Sad but, as
they say, it's your life. Should I tell them about the time you called me before
New Years? You'd said you'd call seomtime before the end of the year and, sure
enough, you did. The funny thing is you wouldn't stay on the line long enough to
actually talk. It was 'Hi Jim. I said I'd call. Well, here I am. You don't sound
so unfriendly on the phone. Maybe we can talk again sometime.' Remember? Is that
how you interact with everyone? What particularly irks me is your questions.
Like below where you say 'very adept analysis but, tell me, can you describe the
taste of a mango?' What right do you have to ask anyone anything when you refuse
to be engaged? Do you actually expect someone to answer your questions? Why
should they? You rarely answer any posed to you and, when you do, you usually
sidestep the issue. So, really, who are you to ask anyone anything? That is
extremely rude behaviour, Chris. Smarten up.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 17:18:46 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: [email protected]
To: Jim
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
I must have done a bad job describing the
evening. Really, it was great. And it WAS worth talking to these guys about
Maharaji. I could see the wheels turning a bit and that felt worthwhile. All
this trip is going to be worth to us for the rest of our lives is a few laughs.
And no one better to share them than our fellow vets. The Leon's of the world
offer less satisfaction, of course. Yes, he does have a clinical practise. You
know what's even stranger, though? Apparently Greta Van Susteran is an
Scientologist. Your account did sound a little edgy to me, but I
might've read it wrong; I was ribbing you anyway. What's the scoop on Greta
being a Scientologist? It's easy for me to believe.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 17:24:43 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
Just that I
read it in a CNN website article about celebrity Scientologists. You say you're
not surprised. Why? I sure am. I'm always amazed to find someone with obviously
working critical faculties falling for bullshit. Oh I know there are countless
examples. I still find it surprising.
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Index
Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 18:49:51 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
>I don't
think you know what I'm talking about because I don't think you've ever risked
trying it. Jim, What I see is that your method of 'trying' didn't seem to work
so now you have switched to a campaign of blame. >You've lurked and offered
your inconsequential nothings for almost two years here. I don't tow the line of
your BS and slander. Too bad Mr. Lawyer. >Should I tell them about the time
you called me before New Years? You just did. But that is your style. No
suprises here. >Chris. Smarten up. Sure! Glad you had a nice dinner with your
friends besides getting your weak story. Mission accomplished. CD
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 19:43:52 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
Jim,fwiw:I
for one felt that your comments on what cd's posts have consisted of over the
past couple of years were bang on!His responding with a cheap, absolutely and
utterly irrelevant 'lawyer' shot was not unexpected. Sorry cd,but I really think
that you've got jim pegged all wrong,and I generally don't have negative things
to say about anyones posts,but your response to jim actually angered me.Perhaps
anger is not the right word,frustration is more like it. The only question I
have for you after reading your posts for close to two years is: do you
consciously intend to frustrate?I ask because it has often seemed like that's
the case.You know;like it's your m/o or something.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 20:28:06 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
Chris, You
wrote: >What I see is that your method of 'trying' didn't seem to work so now
you have switched to a campaign of blame. What the hell are you talking about?
I've not only tried, I've actually succeeded in having not one, but many, good
converstations about your screwy cult leader. Indeed Chris, we all have.
Moreover, you've actually lurked and chimed in on many of them. No, Chris, my
point was that YOU haven't tried to discuss things, that's all. Come on, you
know that's true. Or do you say otherwise? Would you say that you've ever once
engaged anyone in a real conversation here? I'd be amazed if you thought so.
Chris, the net -- like life -- is full of examples of people of varying
viewpoints talking about things. Why, you can stroll over to talk.origins and
find the creationists duking it out with the evolutionists. Know what I mean?
People have different opinions and they discuss them. That is unless they're
afraid to. In that case, they take cheap little pot shots. See, now you've got
bftb (Croatian?) asking the same question we all ask of you from time to time:
what's your trip?
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 20:34:36 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
Bftb, Your
parents didn't need to do that to you. I'm so sorry. But, anyway, your question
to Chris must make Katie laugh. She tried to ask him the exact same thing six
months ago. She'd seen me really lose it on Chris for provoking that same
frustration and she really wanted to know. Was Chris just playing games? Was he
brain-damaged? Whaddup? So she asked him. If I recall, he answered quite curtly,
telling Katie to 'mind her own business' or or words to that effect. And no, he
never did answer. Best of luck!
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 20:52:57 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: [email protected]
To: Jim
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
Just that I read it in a CNN website article
about celebrity Scientologists. You say you're not surprised. Why? I sure am.
I'm always amazed to find someone with obviously working critical faculties
falling for bullshit. Oh I know there are countless examples. I still find it
surprising. I've found Scientologists are usually clear thinkers
about things other than Scientology, and from what I've understood, they respect
the 'analytic mind'. In contrast to DLM, they don't reach for a drug-like
altered state and participate in education, arts and culture. My distaste has
always been with their emotionlessness and whatever bizarre tricks they do to
attain it. I'm aware of their twisted notions about creation, their ripoff
methods of selling their snake oil, and their vindictiveness and lack of ethics,
but they seem long on success and the attributes that go with it. The
Scientologists I've known and known of, usually don't falter much, just as Greta
doesn't.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 20:59:31 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
[email protected]
To: Jim
Subject: Re: premie dinner
party
Message:
Hi Jim, Just to set the record straight, I don't
think Chris ever told me to mind my own business. (Plus I never asked him if he
was brain-damaged! Come on!) I have to admit that Chris doesn't seem to ever
answer direct questions about Maharaji or knowledge. I'm not sure why, either.
But as far as Chris being on the forum, I have no problem with him being on
here, as you probably already know. Regards from Katie P.S. bftb = bystander
from the beginning (in case you didn't know). The other pseudonym option was Bob
Dobbs, but I prefer bftb. It's kind of like that guy in Little Abner - remember
him? Joe Bftsplk?
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 21:17:39 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
Interesting.
The little I know about Scientology implies a few things. First, a Scientologist
must be someone who could read Dianetics without falling over -- asleep or
laughing. It's the emptiest, most superficial and innacurate book imaginable. So
how could someone like Greta, seemingly sharp and educated, think otherwise?
Here's a Hubbard quote from a website hawking 'Advanced Diantetics': 'A
high-tone individual thinks wholly into the future. He is extroverted toward his
environment. He clearly observes the environment with full perception unclouded
by undistinguished fears about the environment. He thinks very little about
himself but operates automatically in his own interests. He enjoys existence.
His calculations (postulations and evaluations) are swift and accurate.'
Beside being extremely foul writing, it's gobbledygook. For the most part, it
has no meaning and, when it does, it makes no sense. Maybe I'm just not a
'high-tone individual.' On the other hand, maybe Hubbard was just a bad Science
Fiction author turned cult leader. Still, Rick, your point about Scientologists
having more of their minds than we did makes sense. Just a different poisonous
fantasy, I guess. We were little love bears and they are courageous thetans
preparing to take over the earth. My favorite Scientology bogus teaching is
their fomenting warning to never read past a word one doesn't understand. That
prime directive, of course, sends you to the Scientology glossary for drivel
such as this definition of the word 'communication': 'the interchange of
ideas across space. Its fullest definition is the consideration and action of
impelling an impulse or particle from source-point across a distance to
receipt-point, with the intention of bringing into being at the receipt-point a
duplication and understanding of that which emanated from the source-point. The
formula of communication is cause, distance, effect, with intention, attention
and duplication with understanding.' I don't know. If the mind really was no
better than the junky stew Scientologists try to make it, I just might consider
giving mine over, lock, stock and barrel, to some fake cult leader who offers
empty-headedness like, Applewhite, Mr. Rogers or Maharaji.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 21:27:58 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
Sorry, Katie,
you misunderstood. You're right. You didn't ask him if he was
brain-damaged. That was something I'll take responsibilty for wondering about.
You simply asked him if he was actually trying to communicate here or if,
instead, he was trying to be evasive. His answer, though, wasn't much different
than what I've said. First, he didn't answer you. Right? Second, what he did say
was something to the effect of 'Be careful, Katie, you don't want to get into an
argument with me here. We've got enough of those already.' Please correct me if
I'm wrong. I only remember that Chris wouldn't answer and sneered at you for
asking. Well? And I never liked Lil' Abner. I found it too sexist.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 21:34:41 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
[email protected]
To: Jim
Subject: Re: premie dinner
party
Message:
Yeah, you are right, he didn't answer me. I can't
remember what he said, but what he usually says (to me) is something to the
effect of 'We already have one thing to disagree about, let's not have another'.
I don't remember him sneering, but he definitely didn't answer the question.
(Chris, are you out there? What did you say, anyway?) Re: Little Abner - yeah,
how could I have forgotten that you must have been the same incredibly
non-sexist p.c. guy even back then! My apologies, Jim...
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 21:40:54 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
bftb, You are
right I do frustrate people at times. Sometimes by accident and at other times,
but rarely, on purpose. I may have made a mistake by responding to Jim's saying
that I had never really tried anything and I should smarten up. But I had the
impulse to push back in response. If you think Jim's description of his
supremacy at the dinner party is 'bang on', then that is your choice. It would
be interesting to read some responses from a couple other people at the dinner
party to get the complete story. Of course, they might be suprised to find out
how Jim has used them in his post. I used Mr. Lawyer to refer to Jim because Jim
seems to exhibit some of the worst of the classic stereotype of the lawyer who
sues at his leisure and pleasure. I do believe that Jim feels empowered by his
legal training to pursue his crusade. Over the past year I have contributed
something to this spot though it may not have been up your alley. I do have my
friends as does Jim and yourself. My fundamental premise is that ultimate
answers do not lie in the realm of rational thought. This is something that I
suspected when I was young. It has been bolstered by my extensive university
education, by what I have learned listening to M and by the interaction of my
brain, feelings in my life and obvious infinite extent of space and time. I do
work and brush my teeth, but also am amazed by the wonder of the earth existing
in the middle of a space with no end and my own finite but remarkable existence
in a world with incredible diversity, evil, beauty and suprises. Understanding
can occur in the inner experience when the mental process calms and the life
force manifests in its subtle beauty. It may have no explanation but neither
does any form of infinity. The simplistic example of the taste of the mango
ultimately conveys an understanding of what limits our logic and descriptive
capabilities face. A great tree growing from a small seed should be amazing to
all of us but we are dulled by the routine and problems of our daily lives and
blinded by the ignorance of newbie technological expertise. I find math,
science, computer science, economics, history and other myriad topics of thought
very interesting and useful but do not expect them to deliver the ultimate
answers that will provide the most fulfilling experience in life. Yes, of course
the intellectual disciplines have practical value. People should develop their
mental skills and manifest their own unique contributions using those skills. We
are an amazing combination of the physical and mental and the infinite subtle
source of life, love and deepest feelings. It is amazing that we are. My
association with M and his teachings for the last 25 years has been extremely
positive and worthwhile. If a poll were taken at this sight I am sure many would
put me in the yes category and many would put me in the no group. This is a
natural consequence of the diversity of human understanding and expression.
Regards, CD
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 21:58:27 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: [email protected]
To: Jim
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
Interesting. The little I know about
Scientology implies a few things. First, a Scientologist must be someone who
could read Dianetics without falling over -- asleep or laughing. It's the
emptiest, most superficial and innacurate book imaginable. So how could someone
like Greta, seemingly sharp and educated, think otherwise? Here's a Hubbard
quote from a website hawking 'Advanced Diantetics': 'A high-tone individual
thinks wholly into the future. He is extroverted toward his environment. He
clearly observes the environment with full perception unclouded by
undistinguished fears about the environment. He thinks very little about himself
but operates automatically in his own interests. He enjoys existence. His
calculations (postulations and evaluations) are swift and accurate.' Beside
being extremely foul writing, it's gobbledygook. For the most part, it has no
meaning and, when it does, it makes no sense. Maybe I'm just not a 'high-tone
individual.' On the other hand, maybe Hubbard was just a bad Science Fiction
author turned cult leader. Still, Rick, your point about Scientologists having
more of their minds than we did makes sense. Just a different poisonous fantasy,
I guess. We were little love bears and they are courageous thetans preparing to
take over the earth. My favorite Scientology bogus teaching is their fomenting
warning to never read past a word one doesn't understand. That prime directive,
of course, sends you to the Scientology glossary for drivel such as this
definition of the word 'communication': 'the interchange of ideas across
space. Its fullest definition is the consideration and action of impelling an
impulse or particle from source-point across a distance to receipt-point, with
the intention of bringing into being at the receipt-point a duplication and
understanding of that which emanated from the source-point. The formula of
communication is cause, distance, effect, with intention, attention and
duplication with understanding.' I don't know. If the mind really was no
better than the junky stew Scientologists try to make it, I just might consider
giving mine over, lock, stock and barrel, to some fake cult leader who offers
empty-headedness like, Applewhite, Mr. Rogers or Maharaji. Funny you
should mention the directive to never read past a word you don't understand.
When you wrote about how boring Hubbard's writing was, I was jokingly going to
suggest that you must have skipped over a word you didn't understand. I tried to
read 'Dianetics' about ten or fifteen years ago and had the same experience...
it was painful. The quote you inserted about communication was amazing. Greta is
sharp; maybe it gets better in the advanced courses.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 22:16:00 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
CD, First off
I was not referring to the dinner party when I said 'bang on'-I think you
misunderstood.In terms of this dinner party I really have no opinion,nor should
I.And anyway I wasn't there. In terms of this You've got friends,I've got
friends,he's got friends stuff:I have absolutely no hard feelings towards anyone
on this site ever in any way.I don't even feel like I'm on any side,and
basically I find this whole forum to be a very interesting and at times even
enlightening ongoing conversation.Yes,your posts have basically been the only
ones that I've found frustrating in that way;but not all of them,just the ones
where you completely evade and never answer the question.You are obviously far
from dumb, and so when someone who understands what's being asked of them just
acts like they don't it's frustrating.If on the other hand when you didn't want
to answer something you would just say :'I understand exactly what you're asking
but I have no interest in answering,I take the fifth'or something honest like
that I'd never have gotten frustrated.And fwiw certain of your posts may
frustrate me,but I don't dislike you personally.Quite the opposite actually,you
seem like a very nice and friendly person,like a premie Katie or something.I
engage in impassioned debate with people I love all the time and even when I
think they're being ridiculous I never dislike them as people.God,if I had to
agree with everyone all the time I'd go out of my freakin' head. Anyway
cd,thanks for your post here,this one didn't frustrate me at all,I really liked
it actually. Peace
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 22:17:13 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
Well, well,
well! Full sentences! How nice. See, Chris, you play the game that so many
premies try and it stretches your scruples not to mention your mind. You disdain
rationality, yet you continue to talk. That, my friend, is a very difficult
combination. Maybe even untenable. By the way, my friend Kathy asked me if I'd
psoted something about bumping into her last week. I told her that indeed I had
and even tried to paraphrase what I'd said. She was bemused. Like I say, we had
a good time. So, Chris, even though I am a sleazy, slimy lawyer, I'm not always
dishonest. All I can say is, Greta notwithstanding, us lawyers have feelings
too, dude. Boo hoo. Chris, you have a lot to answer for here. You know that
you've wasted the time of so many people who have tried to communicate with you.
Their frustration, like mine, must have been fairly palbable for a Certified
Microsoft Technologist like yourself. Why have you done it? Is it some
punishment you think you can exact on those who don't aver rationality like you
do? Are you trying to teach us something? What I see is a very confused
hypocrite. You can't stay away from all this dismal 'rationality' but you can't
bring yourself to indulge in it either. Yes, Chris, my law school training has
been helfup in my crusade. I credit it, for example, with helping me realize
that the time I got into a dialogue with Raja Ji at a program ('Hey, fella, we
were told you were divine!'), he was simply trying to throw me off when he asked
me if I hadn't been happy in the ashram. Yes, I'm proud of the fact that I knew
that that wasn't the question -- that what mattered was how real it had
all been. I may be wrong but I think law helped me a bit there. But suing at my
'liesure and pleasure'? What nonsense! Why, I even misspelled 'leisure', didn't
I? Shows how silly you are on that one Chris. (By the way, what IS your proper
adress?) As for any poll confirming or rejecting your... your what? You want to
know if people like you? Why don't you ask them if they think you've
communicated fairly here? That's the question. I'd be surprised if any but Mili
would say yes. And he's the guy who's trying to shut the site down! Remember how
even OP couldn't figure out if you were 'playing the fool', as she put it? Her
words, Chris, not mine. It boils down to this: if you're not into rational
discussion, go do something else. Or lurk here. Whatever. Just don't be so rude
as to ask questions of others when you won't answer theirs. Nice talking with
you.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 22:22:13 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
Oh it gets
better all right! As Johnny Carson might have said:'That is some wild wacky
stuff'
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 23:01:33 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
>So,
Chris, even though I am a sleazy, slimy lawyer, I'm not always dishonest. All I
can say is, Greta notwithstanding, us lawyers have feelings too, dude. Boo hoo.
Jim, Get a hold of yourself. The fact that you did get your law degree is
comendable. The fact that you play guitar in public performances is even better.
What is your take on some claims that premie songs in minor keys posess some
extra power? >You disdain rationality, yet you continue to talk This is where
misunderstanding takes its toll. I have no problem with rational logic or the
use of thinking to reach conclusions, as a tool to create man-made physical
realities or even as a tool to win your case in court. I do understand that
there are limits of logic that can not be overcome. > I'd be surprised if any
but Mili would say yes. Yes, you did scare away my other allies - g. Pretty
clever Jim. >Nice talking with you. Now that one is especially clever - g.
Best wishes, CD mailto:[email protected] CD's Infinity and Hobbit Book
List
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 01:21:56 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To:
CD
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
bftb, You are right I do frustrate people at
times. Sometimes by accident and at other times, but rarely, on purpose. I may
have made a mistake by responding to Jim's saying that I had never really tried
anything and I should smarten up. But I had the impulse to push back in
response. If you think Jim's description of his supremacy at the dinner party is
'bang on', then that is your choice. It would be interesting to read some
responses from a couple other people at the dinner party to get the complete
story. Of course, they might be suprised to find out how Jim has used them in
his post. I used Mr. Lawyer to refer to Jim because Jim seems to exhibit some of
the worst of the classic stereotype of the lawyer who sues at his leisure and
pleasure. I do believe that Jim feels empowered by his legal training to pursue
his crusade. Over the past year I have contributed something to this spot though
it may not have been up your alley. I do have my friends as does Jim and
yourself. My fundamental premise is that ultimate answers do not lie in the
realm of rational thought. This is something that I suspected when I was young.
It has been bolstered by my extensive university education, by what I have
learned listening to M and by the interaction of my brain, feelings in my life
and obvious infinite extent of space and time. I do work and brush my teeth, but
also am amazed by the wonder of the earth existing in the middle of a space with
no end and my own finite but remarkable existence in a world with incredible
diversity, evil, beauty and suprises. Understanding can occur in the inner
experience when the mental process calms and the life force manifests in its
subtle beauty. It may have no explanation but neither does any form of infinity.
The simplistic example of the taste of the mango ultimately conveys an
understanding of what limits our logic and descriptive capabilities face. A
great tree growing from a small seed should be amazing to all of us but we are
dulled by the routine and problems of our daily lives and blinded by the
ignorance of newbie technological expertise. I find math, science, computer
science, economics, history and other myriad topics of thought very interesting
and useful but do not expect them to deliver the ultimate answers that will
provide the most fulfilling experience in life. Yes, of course the intellectual
disciplines have practical value. People should develop their mental skills and
manifest their own unique contributions using those skills. We are an amazing
combination of the physical and mental and the infinite subtle source of life,
love and deepest feelings. It is amazing that we are. My association with M and
his teachings for the last 25 years has been extremely positive and worthwhile.
If a poll were taken at this sight I am sure many would put me in the yes
category and many would put me in the no group. This is a natural consequence of
the diversity of human understanding and expression. Regards, CD CD:
This is a big battle in the social sciences. You say you've been
influenced by a University education, so you are probably aware of the
'interpretive turn' in philosophy that began with Kant, and has now graduated to
the radical hermeneutics of Leotard, et al? I find most Americans dismiss that
stuff too lightly, and most Europeans give it too much credibility. One trouble
is that 'non-rational' covers a lot of stuff... the subconscious and the
'trans-rational' (super-conscious). The dilemma you are talking about, which is
real, is not an answer to anything... it's a problem. Rationality, Weber saw,
takes us down a road of 'rationalization' to ultimately leave us in an 'iron
cage.' He saw charisma, as a possible way to break the chain, but we have to be
able to make some sort of determination that differentiates between a George
Washington and an Adolph Hitler. If charismatic leaders gain the license to
completely transcend rationality... then how do we decide. My feeling is that
GMJ is not a problem, and is not a close call. I'm really worried about the next
guy, who is a lot more power-hungry than GMJ and a lot more clever. Let me put
this another way. If GMJ is God, or even good, then we have no way of telling
good from evil. This doesn't settle the issue, it just means that the universe
is much more problematic than even the pessimists think it is. That's the
problem. When virtually all objective evidence suggests that GMJ is not
good then even if he is God I either have to act as though he is not, or I have
to act as though the fate of the human race rests on a coin toss. All of this
was made much clearer by Karl Popper. It is not productive to make
non-falsifiable hypotheses. In the face of all the evidence the hypothesis that
GMJ is God, or is good, is not falsifiable (either now or at any time in
future). It is therefore not a responsible hypothesis to make. Here's an example
of a responsible hypothesis about spirituality. 'If it were impossible to know
God, then it were better not to believe.' The person who made this hypothesis,
and conclusion, then lived his like as though he believed. There
are only two conclusions: either Paul lived a lie, or he knew God (or could at
least realistically hope to know God). We have the testimony of this man's life
which 'fails to falsify the hypothesis that God can be known.' He had 'good
charisma.' -Scott
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 03:20:22 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: [email protected]
To: CD
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
Hey, nice post CD! Jim, just thought I'd comment on some
of your 'points'. You saud that even though you are a slime, sleazy lawyer, even
you were honest sometimes. Were you honest when you said that? With regard to
'rationality' - Freud and Jung discovered and proved that 'rationality' was just
a superficial layer of the mind. We are motivated by base emotions. It really
shows in your crusade - you have your mind set, and you are just rationalizing
your irrational beliefs (intolerance), although the packaging is designed to
appear like logic. That is called 'ratonalization' - a mockery of the real
thing. Here's an example of the kind of 'rationality' you use: a murderer picks
a victim, and then takes elaborate, rational steps in planning and executing the
murder. The Nazis made very elaborate and rational preparations to exterminate
hundreds of thousands of Jews and other non-German peoples in death camps during
WWII. It was supported by a thoroughly 'logical' rationalization, down to the
last detail. Another example is the rational and premeditated policy that is
being imposed on Iraq by the US government - starve the whole people for seven
years, and then bomb the shit out of them. Pax Americana. All that is going to
do is polarize all the Iraqis and other Arabs to cling to Saddam even more.
Leaders just fulfil a role that people provide for them, but that's another
topic altogether. Anyway, I figured out that it's just a waste of time talking
to you. You are unbelieveably close-minded, petrified and inflexible. You are
just feigning a willingness to talk to people who don't share your conjectures
and beliefs, but in reality it's a big pain for you, and you wish that those who
do not share your opinions should not state them at all.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 10:14:38 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
You are
right I do frustrate people at times. Sometimes by accident and at other times,
but rarely, on purpose. You only frustrate those people who still believe
you capable of direct response to specific questions. What you view as
'accident' or 'rarely on purpose' is nothing more than habit. If you
practice evasion on a daily basis, you can hardly claim it as being an
'accident' and have those you disappoint fall for your rationalization. The
simplistic example of the taste of the mango ultimately conveys an understanding
of what limits our logic and descriptive capabilities face. A great tree growing
from a small seed should be amazing to all of us but we are dulled by the
routine and problems of our daily lives and blinded by the ignorance of newbie
technological expertise. Yes, life is wonderous. Somehow in the face of
that, many people still think and communicate directly with each other. Do their
words encompass a great truth? Nope. But they still write books that don't look
like the innards of a fortune cookie. You read them, and throw the titles around
on this forum to reinforce your learnedness. Then you evade the question
asked - offering instead an overview of Life itself. How wonderously insightful.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 11:18:49 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
[email protected]
To: Everyone
Subject: Re: Chris and
Jim (Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
My opinion only - 1. Re:
Chris - I don't think he evades on purpose (except, as he says, rarely, when
he's fooling around). My opinion is that his communication style is different
from most other people on the forum. I hope this isn't insulting, Chris. What do
you think, anyway? (what does Jan think?) By the way, I don't agree with the
argument that Chris is 'wasting people's time' on the forum. That's a matter of
opinion. 2. Re: Jim. I wish people would get off Jim's case for being a lawyer.
Sure, he is a good arguer, but that isn't necessarily because he is a lawyer. I
bet he was persuasive and good at arguments before law school too. I learned how
to argue by emulating my father, who was NOT a lawyer, and by going to
counseling. Insulting Jim for being a lawyer is just beside the point, in my
opinion, since we don't know anything about his law practice. Besides, several
other people on here could be lawyers, too, and we wouldn't know it, right?
There are even PREMIE lawyers!
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 11:51:18 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: [email protected]
To: Brian
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
You are right I do frustrate people at
times. Sometimes by accident and at other times, but rarely, on purpose. You
only frustrate those people who still believe you capable of direct response to
specific questions. What you view as 'accident' or 'rarely on purpose' is
nothing more than habit. If you practice evasion on a daily basis, you
can hardly claim it as being an 'accident' and have those you disappoint fall
for your rationalization. The simplistic example of the taste of the mango
ultimately conveys an understanding of what limits our logic and descriptive
capabilities face. A great tree growing from a small seed should be amazing to
all of us but we are dulled by the routine and problems of our daily lives and
blinded by the ignorance of newbie technological expertise. Yes, life is
wonderous. Somehow in the face of that, many people still think and communicate
directly with each other. Do their words encompass a great truth? Nope. But they
still write books that don't look like the innards of a fortune cookie. You read
them, and throw the titles around on this forum to reinforce your
learnedness. Then you evade the question asked - offering instead an
overview of Life itself. How wonderously insightful. Yes, it can be
frustrating when the answer to your question is not what you expect it to be.
Back To
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 12:16:36 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To:
Mili
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
Yes,
it can be frustrating when the answer to your question is not what you expect it
to be. Mili: Question? Answer? I don't get it... unless you are referring to
something like the fundamental existential question. Most of the people on this
forum seem open there. The frustration probably comes about as the result of the
'broken record' quality of some of the arguments. I (and probably others) have
heard all that stuff ad nauseum. Because the things that are said along these
lines can't be falsified does not mean that they are true. Non-falsifiability is
not a test of Truth... but it is often a test of clever evasion. -Scott
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 12:28:56 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To:
bftb
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
I had
access to some of the advanced teachings as a result of knowing in inner-circle
ex-scientologist. (Someone the movement would prefer were dead.) I recall being
accosted for several hours by a half dozen scientologists in a small room in
Boston. They accused me of 'brow beating' them. Very objective. There are clever
premies, and clever scientologists. It's a mystery. -Scott
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 13:00:36 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: [email protected]
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim (Re: premie dinner
party)
Message:
My opinion only - 1. Re: Chris - I don't
think he evades on purpose (except, as he says, rarely, when he's fooling
around). My opinion is that his communication style is different from most other
people on the forum. I hope this isn't insulting, Chris. What do you think,
anyway? (what does Jan think?) By the way, I don't agree with the argument that
Chris is 'wasting people's time' on the forum. That's a matter of opinion. 2.
Re: Jim. I wish people would get off Jim's case for being a lawyer. Sure, he is
a good arguer, but that isn't necessarily because he is a lawyer. I bet he was
persuasive and good at arguments before law school too. I learned how to argue
by emulating my father, who was NOT a lawyer, and by going to counseling.
Insulting Jim for being a lawyer is just beside the point, in my opinion, since
we don't know anything about his law practice. Besides, several other people on
here could be lawyers, too, and we wouldn't know it, right? There are even
PREMIE lawyers! Katie, The problem with Jim is not that he is a
lawyer, or good at arguing. It's that he brings up irrelevant points to argue.
Also, he is not playing fair. He has no qulams about insulting people, yet he is
very touchy when he gets insulted back. His favorite trick is to pronounce
anyone who doesn't agree with him stupid. Then he gets a reaction to that, and
his ego thrives on that. Provoke and then play the innocent victim, its just the
same idiotic little game he plays all the time. It can really become monotonous
after a while.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 14:16:00 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
[email protected]
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim
(Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
My opinion
only - 1. Re: Chris - I don't think he evades on purpose (except, as he says,
rarely, when he's fooling around). My opinion is that his communication style is
different from most other people on the forum. I hope this isn't insulting,
Chris. What do you think, anyway? (what does Jan think?) By the way, I don't
agree with the argument that Chris is 'wasting people's time' on the forum.
That's a matter of opinion. 2. Re: Jim. I wish people would get off Jim's case
for being a lawyer. Sure, he is a good arguer, but that isn't necessarily
because he is a lawyer. I bet he was persuasive and good at arguments before law
school too. I learned how to argue by emulating my father, who was NOT a lawyer,
and by going to counseling. Insulting Jim for being a lawyer is just beside the
point, in my opinion, since we don't know anything about his law practice.
Besides, several other people on here could be lawyers, too, and we wouldn't
know it, right? There are even PREMIE lawyers! Katie, The problem
with Jim is not that he is a lawyer, or good at arguing. It's that he brings up
irrelevant points to argue. Also, he is not playing fair. He has no qulams about
insulting people, yet he is very touchy when he gets insulted back. His favorite
trick is to pronounce anyone who doesn't agree with him stupid. Then he gets a
reaction to that, and his ego thrives on that. Provoke and then play the
innocent victim, its just the same idiotic little game he plays all the time. It
can really become monotonous after a while. Dear Mili - you didn't
really answer my question, but I'm going to assume that you don't have any
problem with Jim being a lawyer from now forward. IMHO, it's distracting and
silly when anyone on this site insults people because of their
occupation, sex, religion, marital status, national origin, or whatever. (This
is not addressed to you directly, Mili. You just happened to be the one who
answered my question.) As to the way Jim argues, I don't know what to say. I
have had some good arguments with him both on the site and via e-mail, but he's
a lot nicer to me than he is to some other people because I am an ex-premie and
because we (sort of) know each other. Actually, I don't care if people want to
argue with Jim and vice versa, it's just that all the lawyer stuff was starting
to get on my nerves.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 14:20:28 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To:
Katie
Subject: Sorry! (Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
Sorry everyone, I did not put in the right code to end
the bold face type! The only bold word should have been 'anyone'.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 16:05:02 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: [email protected]
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
bftb, You are right I do frustrate
people at times. Sometimes by accident and at other times, but rarely, on
purpose. I may have made a mistake by responding to Jim's saying that I had
never really tried anything and I should smarten up. But I had the impulse to
push back in response. If you think Jim's description of his supremacy at the
dinner party is 'bang on', then that is your choice. It would be interesting to
read some responses from a couple other people at the dinner party to get the
complete story. Of course, they might be suprised to find out how Jim has used
them in his post. I used Mr. Lawyer to refer to Jim because Jim seems to exhibit
some of the worst of the classic stereotype of the lawyer who sues at his
leisure and pleasure. I do believe that Jim feels empowered by his legal
training to pursue his crusade. Over the past year I have contributed something
to this spot though it may not have been up your alley. I do have my friends as
does Jim and yourself. My fundamental premise is that ultimate answers do not
lie in the realm of rational thought. This is something that I suspected when I
was young. It has been bolstered by my extensive university education, by what I
have learned listening to M and by the interaction of my brain, feelings in my
life and obvious infinite extent of space and time. I do work and brush my
teeth, but also am amazed by the wonder of the earth existing in the middle of a
space with no end and my own finite but remarkable existence in a world with
incredible diversity, evil, beauty and suprises. Understanding can occur in the
inner experience when the mental process calms and the life force manifests in
its subtle beauty. It may have no explanation but neither does any form of
infinity. The simplistic example of the taste of the mango ultimately conveys an
understanding of what limits our logic and descriptive capabilities face. A
great tree growing from a small seed should be amazing to all of us but we are
dulled by the routine and problems of our daily lives and blinded by the
ignorance of newbie technological expertise. I find math, science, computer
science, economics, history and other myriad topics of thought very interesting
and useful but do not expect them to deliver the ultimate answers that will
provide the most fulfilling experience in life. Yes, of course the intellectual
disciplines have practical value. People should develop their mental skills and
manifest their own unique contributions using those skills. We are an amazing
combination of the physical and mental and the infinite subtle source of life,
love and deepest feelings. It is amazing that we are. My association with M and
his teachings for the last 25 years has been extremely positive and worthwhile.
If a poll were taken at this sight I am sure many would put me in the yes
category and many would put me in the no group. This is a natural consequence of
the diversity of human understanding and expression. Regards, CD CD:
This is a big battle in the social sciences. You say you've been
influenced by a University education, so you are probably aware of the
'interpretive turn' in philosophy that began with Kant, and has now graduated to
the radical hermeneutics of Leotard, et al? I find most Americans dismiss that
stuff too lightly, and most Europeans give it too much credibility. One trouble
is that 'non-rational' covers a lot of stuff... the subconscious and the
'trans-rational' (super-conscious). The dilemma you are talking about, which is
real, is not an answer to anything... it's a problem. Rationality, Weber saw,
takes us down a road of 'rationalization' to ultimately leave us in an 'iron
cage.' He saw charisma, as a possible way to break the chain, but we have to be
able to make some sort of determination that differentiates between a George
Washington and an Adolph Hitler. If charismatic leaders gain the license to
completely transcend rationality... then how do we decide. My feeling is that
GMJ is not a problem, and is not a close call. I'm really worried about the next
guy, who is a lot more power-hungry than GMJ and a lot more clever. Let me put
this another way. If GMJ is God, or even good, then we have no way of telling
good from evil. This doesn't settle the issue, it just means that the universe
is much more problematic than even the pessimists think it is. That's the
problem. When virtually all objective evidence suggests that GMJ is not
good then even if he is God I either have to act as though he is not, or I have
to act as though the fate of the human race rests on a coin toss. All of this
was made much clearer by Karl Popper. It is not productive to make
non-falsifiable hypotheses. In the face of all the evidence the hypothesis that
GMJ is God, or is good, is not falsifiable (either now or at any time in
future). It is therefore not a responsible hypothesis to make. Here's an example
of a responsible hypothesis about spirituality. 'If it were impossible to know
God, then it were better not to believe.' The person who made this hypothesis,
and conclusion, then lived his like as though he believed. There
are only two conclusions: either Paul lived a lie, or he knew God (or could at
least realistically hope to know God). We have the testimony of this man's life
which 'fails to falsify the hypothesis that God can be known.' He had 'good
charisma.' -Scott I don't waste much time thinking 'is GMJ God?'.
GMJ is just GMJ. I tend to think of an impersonal God, like a fountain of Light
and divine Bliss that is the source of Creation. Also, I am aware that any 'God'
that I can imagine is just my concoction, not the real God, so I'd rather be
open to an undefined 'Nothing, the Great Void, Novelty' than constrain God by my
imagination. In my book Knowledge is 'good' - it is an everpresent source of
clarity and simplicity in a complicated world. It is home base. GMJ talks about
the Knowledge, and I can see that he is being very down to earth and realistic
about it. So, I guess, for me, by association, GMJ is also good. Like I said
many times, I don't think his private life is relevant. I don't look to him to
teach me about flying airplanes, or having kids, or whatever else it is he does
when he is not giving satsang.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 21:49:26 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim (Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
Katie, If you ever see this (can anything be done about
the 50 post cutoff?): Why do you think Chris doesn't evade on purpose? Like when
he didn't answer your question about whether or not he evades on purpose? Why do
you think that wasn't on purpose? And how about now? What if he doesn't answer
your latest question about that? Will that not be on purpose? Are we talking
wishful thinking, Katie?
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 23:22:53 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
[email protected]
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim
(Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
Katie, If you ever
see this (can anything be done about the 50 post cutoff?): Why do you think
Chris doesn't evade on purpose? Like when he didn't answer your question about
whether or not he evades on purpose? Why do you think that wasn't on purpose?
And how about now? What if he doesn't answer your latest question about that?
Will that not be on purpose? Are we talking wishful thinking, Katie?
Dear Jim - to bypass the 50-post cutoff, use the following URL as
your bookmark. It will load the whole forum. I usually use it so I can see newer
posts farther down. The problem lately has been that the forum gets so big so
fast that it takes forever to load after about a week. I am not sure if anything
can be done about the 50 post cutoff - with Paradise, I mean. Shri Brian, master
of the web, is looking for other options. Here's the URL:
http://www.paradise-serve.com/powerforum/pwrforum.exe?who=anything&showall=ok
Regarding Chris - the reason I think he's not being deliberately evasive is
because 1) he said that he isn't deliberately evasive , except for every once in
a while, and 2) I know some other people who communicate sort of like Chris does
and they aren't deliberately evasive either. That's just how they are, in my
opinion. Why does it bother you so much, anyway? Seriously (and I am asking
nicely). Katie
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998
at 11:35:43 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim (Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
Katy, Thanks for the tip. As for: >Regarding Chris -
the reason I think he's not being deliberately evasive is because 1) he said
that he isn't deliberately evasive , except for every once in a while, and 2) I
know some other people who communicate sort of like Chris does and they aren't
deliberately evasive either. That's just how they are, in my opinion. >Why
does it bother you so much, anyway? Seriously (and I am asking nicely). You're
kidding, right? Anyway, I guess I'm just a caring kind of guy.
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998
at 14:54:56 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To:
Mili
Subject: Re: premie dinner party
Message:
Mili:
This is getting pretty far down on the list, so you may not get back to it. I
agree with most of what you say. In my experience Knowledge is 'good,' though I
am open to the possibility that it's a 'trick.' As for 'I don't think his
private life is relevant. ' That sounds very suspicious. Is Paul's private
life relevant to the test of his hypothesis and conclusion? You bet! It is
everything. Without that evidence his statement means absolutely
nothing. -Scott
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998
at 18:31:31 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To:
Jim
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim (Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
Katie, If you ever see this (can anything be
done about the 50 post cutoff?): Why do you think Chris doesn't evade on
purpose? Like when he didn't answer your question about whether or not he evades
on purpose? Why do you think that wasn't on purpose? And how about now? What if
he doesn't answer your latest question about that? Will that not be on purpose?
Are we talking wishful thinking, Katie? Katie and Jim: I used to
have a girlfriend who had a certain pattern with men, which I excused based upon
the notion that it wasn't 'on purpose.' A firend of mine pointed out that it
probably wasn't 'on purpose.' It was probably more like tying her shoes. She
just didn't have to think about it. -Scott
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998
at 19:00:08 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Scott
T.
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim (Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
Exactment, mon frere!
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Date: Tues, Feb 17,
1998 at 09:23:03 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
[email protected]
To: Scott and Jim
Subject: Re: Chris
and Jim (Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
You guys will probably
never see this down here, but here goes. Yeah, but why does someone do something
like evasion? There's usually a reason for it. For example, I am a hesitant
speaker, I have trouble speaking for more than 60 seconds at a time, let
sentences go unfinished, tend to try and tell a story as fast as I can (leading
to confusion on the part of the listener). Why? Cause people in my family always
interrupted me before I was finished speaking, leading me to believe I was
boring them to death. Is this behavior deliberate on my part? Or not? (By the
way, the way I talk really bothers some people, although fortunately not all.)
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Date: Tues, Feb 17,
1998 at 10:09:48 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email:
[email protected]
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim
(Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
Katie, Okay if I join in?
Probably no one can answer this, but at some point one has to wonder if someone
evading doesn't have the intention to do so. You point out that you were
interrupted in your family and tend to hurry your communication. Yet you're
delightfully forthcoming and frank. The woman I live with does the opposite; she
will talk at length for the same reason you talk briefly but won't broach a
delicate subject because of other fears. If I push, she'll eventually 'fess up
to what she really thinks, and she resents being pushed, but won't offer what
she thinks otherwise. Sometimes I think premies are pretty brave for posting on
this site at all. If I was still a premie, I'd never go near this place.
Maharaji always gave that analogy about getting drowned by those you're trying
to save. Not to mention, it's downright confronting in this environment. Also, I
think premies inherently have to be evasive because the reality demands it. If
they weren't evasive, they'd have to leave maharaji. People have to be able to
find culpability at some point. Otherwise, no one's responsible for anything.
It's really hard to know when someone's truly culpable; I think people usually
guess or form an opinion based on how they feel. I'm usually quick to find
someone culpable. You seem like you're slow to find people culpable. It may be
connected to having a tendency to blame yourself versus blaming otheres. Pretty
complicated, but at some point you have to be able to say, 'You're a rotten
louse.' Of course, you can always take it back later if you were wrong.
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Date: Tues, Feb 17,
1998 at 11:18:22 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
[email protected]
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim
(Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
Katie, Okay if I join
in? Probably no one can answer this, but at some point one has to wonder if
someone evading doesn't have the intention to do so. You point out that you were
interrupted in your family and tend to hurry your communication. Yet you're
delightfully forthcoming and frank. The woman I live with does the opposite; she
will talk at length for the same reason you talk briefly but won't broach a
delicate subject because of other fears. If I push, she'll eventually 'fess up
to what she really thinks, and she resents being pushed, but won't offer what
she thinks otherwise. Sometimes I think premies are pretty brave for posting on
this site at all. If I was still a premie, I'd never go near this place.
Maharaji always gave that analogy about getting drowned by those you're trying
to save. Not to mention, it's downright confronting in this environment. Also, I
think premies inherently have to be evasive because the reality demands it. If
they weren't evasive, they'd have to leave maharaji. People have to be able to
find culpability at some point. Otherwise, no one's responsible for anything.
It's really hard to know when someone's truly culpable; I think people usually
guess or form an opinion based on how they feel. I'm usually quick to find
someone culpable. You seem like you're slow to find people culpable. It may be
connected to having a tendency to blame yourself versus blaming otheres. Pretty
complicated, but at some point you have to be able to say, 'You're a rotten
louse.' Of course, you can always take it back later if you were wrong.
Hi Rick - of course it's OK if you join in. Jim and I have beat this
subject to death both on and off the net, have agreed to disagree, and keep
arguing about it. I guess the question if whether Chris is deliberately evasive
or not. Or as you put if, does he have the intention to be evasive? Now much
further up on this thread, Chris said that he was evasive at times, but almost
always not deliberately. To me this is admitting that he is culpable
('responsible for wrong or error'.) I believe him, and think that if he intends
to be evasive, it's unconcious, or programming. EXCEPT for one big thing.
Maharaji/PAM has said that they don't want premies talking about knowledge on
the internet. My guess is that Chris still wants to post on here, but is
inhibited by that (just like I'm inhibited for speaking for more than five
minutes for fear that I'm boring someone). For example, he wouldn't give VP the
Visions phone number, which was very frustrating to VP. I feel like he did this
in an effort to obey M/PAM's agya. (Chris, I am interpreting your actions here
so please speak up if I am wrong. I don't want to speak for you.) Also, some
people have implied that Chris shouldn't be posting on here if he is going to be
evasive. I don't agree with this at all. Brian's basic rules for posting say
that violent threats and assuming other people's identities are strongly
discouraged. Chris doesn't do either of these things. Plus some of his posts are
interesting to me. I agree that people have to be able to find culpability, and
also that people have to assume culpability. You are right that I tend to be
slow to find (most) people culpable. But I do believe that everyone is
responsible for their own actions, wrongs, or errors. The reason I tend to be
slow to find culpability is that I tend to believe things are my fault, while
other people tend to believe that things are other's fault (Maharaji is a prime
example. Do you think he believes that he is responsible for ANY error or
wrong?) By the way, Rick, although you say you are quick to find culpability,
you do seem to take the correct amount of responsiblity for your errors and
wrongs. About evasion (and not Chris in particular): I believe that many people
are brought up in such a way that they won't discuss their feelings (because
they were told that they shouldn't have negative feelings), won't say what they
think (because it's 'negative' or bad), won't ask for what they want (because
it's 'selfish') and won't say no (because it's not OK). Women in particular are
taught these things, and are taught - by example - to get what they want by
indirectness and manipulation, but men can have many of these behaviors too. My
husband has a hard time saying what he wants in personal relationships, for
example, although he doesn't have the same problem at work. I appreciate your
saying that I am 'frank and forthcoming' (thanks), but I had to work really hard
to get that way (years of therapy and so forth). I used to have a really hard
time even knowing what I wanted and what I thought because I was so conditioned
to think and feel the way I 'should'. I was afraid that if I said what I really
wanted or felt or thought, I'd be rejected as a selfish and bad person. So I can
relate to what you said about the woman you live with. But at the same time, I
don't think people that are evasive can get away with saying 'that's just how I
am' if their evasiveness bothers other people. I don't think that's what Chris
was trying to say (but I could be wrong). Anyway, I don't have the impulse to
call anyone on here a rotten louse (yet). Did you have someone particular in
mind? Regards, Katie
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Date: Tues, Feb 17,
1998 at 12:06:02 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email:
[email protected]
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim
(Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
Katie, Clearly maharaji doesn't
take responsibility for causing any pain as a result of guruing. It's hard to
imagine what it's like inside his head; probably some very strange notions that
don't include being wrong or feeling guilty. I agree that we're taught not to
say what we feel (or emote), express negative thoughts, or ask for what we want,
expecially women. Truth be told, I think Mili is a rotten louse. I made up my
mind when I read his attempt to shut down alt.cult.maharaji For me, that was
over the line into 'evil-land'. A straight-up apology would probably rectify my
feelings, though.
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Date: Tues, Feb 17,
1998 at 14:28:34 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To:
Rick
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim (Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
Katie, Your point is that Chris is only evasive to the
extent he says he is. But when you and others now have asked him to explain
himself -- he's evasive. YET, you give him the benefit of the doubt. Why?
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Date: Tues, Feb 17,
1998 at 14:30:05 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim (Re: premie dinner
party)
Message:
Katie, Rick, et al: We're really scraping the
bottom of the barrel down here aren't we? If I go to tie my shoe it's the whole
act that's intentional. Once I start, everything else is automatic. The tying of
knots. The pattern I was talking about, with my female friend, was clearly
created by a familial abuse pattern, but she also got a 'hit' from it. She got
some enjoyment out of the whole knot-tying process, especially the end. (This
isn't as kinky as it sounds.) The point, I guess, is that if she had been
'called out' for it more often it would have been less of a hit, and she might
have sought other patterns. Have you ever seen that scene in the movie
Backdraft where the guy describes the process of fire as a sort of
living thing? A 'beast?' There's a sort in inhuman inevitability to some of
these patterns, once you catch their drift. In my own case I have to remain
vigilant, so that I avoid at least some of my patterns. Some people don't give a
shit. -Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 17,
1998 at 15:08:20 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
[email protected]
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim
(Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
Katie, Your point is
that Chris is only evasive to the extent he says he is. But when you and others
now have asked him to explain himself -- he's evasive. YET, you give him the
benefit of the doubt. Why? Jim, I am not sure that I understand your
question. Give him the benefit of the doubt for what? Do you mean that I am
giving him the benefit of the doubt because I beleive him when he says he's not
being evasive on purpose? The reason I do that is because I believe that he
honestly is trying to communicate with people on the site. You don't believe
this, right? So can we agree to disagree? (There is obviously no way we can
resolve this question between the two or four of us that are here!)
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Date: Tues, Feb 17,
1998 at 15:16:39 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To:
Rick
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim (Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
Katie, Clearly maharaji doesn't take
responsibility for causing any pain as a result of guruing. It's hard to imagine
what it's like inside his head; probably some very strange notions that don't
include being wrong or feeling guilty. I agree that we're taught not to say what
we feel (or emote), express negative thoughts, or ask for what we want,
expecially women. Truth be told, I think Mili is a rotten louse. I made up my
mind when I read his attempt to shut down alt.cult.maharaji For me, that was
over the line into 'evil-land'. A straight-up apology would probably rectify my
feelings, though. Dear Rick, My opinion on Mili is that he's
fighting a war against something, and the ex-premies are the nearest
approximation. He has often in the past compared us to Nazis, white
supremacists, fundamentalist Christians, the KKK, and so forth, which are such
exaggerations that it makes me wonder if he is really mad at us, or if we are
just the symbol for something else. I do think it was really rotten that he
tried to shut down the newsgroup, but I also thought it was strange and a little
silly (I mean: like WHY?).
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Date: Tues, Feb 17,
1998 at 15:24:18 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To:
Scott T.
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim (Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
I understand what you mean about unconscious patterns
(like whatever your ex did). People do weird and even psychopathic things
because of patterns like that. I think you have to draw the line when they start
harming other people or animals or themselves. I'm not sure that Chris's evasive
behavior is really hurting anyone whether it's conscious or unconscious. He has
been 'called out' for it before on the forum, many times, by the way. But if it
bothers you, I think it's good that you say so, so that he can know that it's
not just a few people noticing it.
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Date: Tues, Feb 17,
1998 at 17:19:24 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To:
Katie
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim (Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
Katie, Yes, I mean 'giving him the benefit of the doubt'
by accepting his explanation of when he does and doesn't mean to be evasive.
Yes, I can 'agree to disagree' but I don't find that very satisfying. Katie,
look at what you're saying. When asked why you give him the benefit of the doubt
(i.e. believe him) you say: 'The reason I do that is because I believe that he
honestly is trying to communicate with people on the site.' So all you're saying
is you believe him because you believe him! AND, you don't want to talk about it
(although, I have to say, I never dragged you in this time. You jumped.).
Frankly, I'd have thought Chris had exhausted any such 'benefit of the doubt'
with you when he wouldn't answer your very simple question.
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Date: Tues, Feb 17,
1998 at 17:44:16 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
[email protected]
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim
(Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
Katie, Yes, I mean
'giving him the benefit of the doubt' by accepting his explanation of when he
does and doesn't mean to be evasive. Yes, I can 'agree to disagree' but I don't
find that very satisfying. Katie, look at what you're saying. When asked why you
give him the benefit of the doubt (i.e. believe him) you say: 'The reason I do
that is because I believe that he honestly is trying to communicate with people
on the site.' So all you're saying is you believe him because you believe him!
AND, you don't want to talk about it (although, I have to say, I never dragged
you in this time. You jumped.). Frankly, I'd have thought Chris had exhausted
any such 'benefit of the doubt' with you when he wouldn't answer your very
simple question. Jim - I agree that my argument sucks (or it's a
circular argument or whatever). And I'm sorry it's not very satisfying to you.
But, I am tired of arguing about whether Chris is deliberately or not
deliberately evasive, even though, as you say, I brought it on myself by being
too impulsive. The reason I don't want to talk about it anymore is that I feel
like I am out on a limb already - I can't really say any more about Chris
without either having Chris's participation or being able to read his mind. In
fact, I feel like Chris should take over the argument at this point, although I
can see why he wouldn't want to! Katie P.S. Maybe you can get some satisfaction
by arguing with 'a premie' or 'Miss Y' for a while!
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Date: Tues, Feb 17,
1998 at 17:47:09 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To:
Scott T.
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim (Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
Scott, Good point. Really, Chris' intent is a bit of a
red herring. He's evasive and can and should stop being that way. Period. One
could speculate that maybe he suffers from some kind of mental disorder. There's
no evidence of that, just the sign of someone trying to defend an untenable
position. Here, I give my own common sense the 'benefit of the doubt.'
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Date: Tues, Feb 17,
1998 at 17:56:26 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To:
Katie
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim (Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
Katie, Why in the world would I want to argue with two
anonymous idiots when I have you?
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Date: Tues, Feb 17,
1998 at 17:56:46 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To:
Katie
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim (Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
Katie, Why in the world would I want to argue with two
anonymous idiots when I have you?
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Date: Tues, Feb 17,
1998 at 18:02:44 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To:
Jim
Subject: Re: Chris and Jim (Re: premie dinner party)
Message:
Katie, Why in the world would I want to argue
with two anonymous idiots when I have you? You got me. Maybe we can
get into a real good argument later about something else. Katie P.S. Send me an
e-mail sometime when you get a chance.
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Date: Fri, Feb 13, 1998
at 14:21:10 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: [email protected]
To: Everyone
Subject: Paradise is the pits
Message:
The latest archive is online now. Paradise managed to eat
about 10 posts that were at the bottom of the index. This happened last time,
but I had made an archive earlier in the week to test some software. I'll make
one in mid-week again to prevent any further loss. You people are so darn chatty
here that I have to archive once a week lately. All of the Forum II archives are
currently available to browse online, for anyone having a good book to read
while they load. The 'parts' run between 140K and 532K. That's why I originally
had it set up to download ZIP files to read offline. You can still do that, as
the ZIP files are available, and they include all parts of an archive. I will
probably have to restrict online reading to the most recent archive(s) sometime
in the near future. Disk space above 50 MEG costs extra, and these puppies eat
it up. For these 5 archives as they are, it's running about 8 MEG. So you see
that zipping is the only way that archives can remain available somewhere down
the road (couple of months?). Evantually I hope to find a better alternative to
Paradise. I'm looking into it.
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Date: Fri, Feb 13, 1998
at 14:35:45 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To:
Everyone
Subject: Re: Paradise is the pits
Message:
BTW, I haven't heard anything about the page format for
the Forum II archives. People who have waded through Forum I archives please let
me know if you think it would be worth my time to reformat those archives the
same as Forum II. Yes? No? What-was-the-question?
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Date: Fri, Feb 13, 1998
at 15:56:52 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To:
Brian
Subject: Re: Paradise is the pits
Message:
BTW, I haven't heard anything about the page
format for the Forum II archives. People who have waded through Forum I archives
please let me know if you think it would be worth my time to reformat those
archives the same as Forum II. Yes? No? What-was-the-question?
Brian, I would love to answer your question but I tested the 'view'
links on about half of the new forum archives and none of them work. I know this
will just make your day... Anyway, I hated the format of the Archived Forums I,
so I think whatever you can come up with will have to be better. I liked the
look and feel of the ZIP files I downloaded a lot.
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Date: Fri, Feb 13, 1998
at 16:56:25 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To:
Katie/Brian
Subject: Trouble, too (Re: Paradise is the pits)
Message:
BTW, I haven't heard anything about the page
format for the Forum II archives. People who have waded through Forum I archives
please let me know if you think it would be worth my time to reformat those
archives the same as Forum II. Yes? No? What-was-the-question? Brian, I would
love to answer your question but I tested the 'view' links on about half of the
new forum archives and none of them work. I know this will just make your day...
Anyway, I hated the format of the Archived Forums I, so I think whatever you can
come up with will have to be better. I liked the look and feel of the ZIP files
I downloaded a lot. Brian, I hate to tell you that I had the same
problem that Katie did. I appreciate you letting us view on-line and thank you
again for all of the time and work that you have put and are putting into this.
Sincerely, VP
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Date: Fri, Feb 13, 1998
at 17:58:37 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To:
VP
Subject: Re: Trouble, too (Re: Paradise is the pits)
Message:
BTW, I haven't heard anything about the page
format for the Forum II archives. People who have waded through Forum I archives
please let me know if you think it would be worth my time to reformat those
archives the same as Forum II. Yes? No? What-was-the-question? Brian, I would
love to answer your question but I tested the 'view' links on about half of the
new forum archives and none of them work. I know this will just make your day...
Anyway, I hated the format of the Archived Forums I, so I think whatever you can
come up with will have to be better. I liked the look and feel of the ZIP files
I downloaded a lot. Brian, I hate to tell you that I had the same problem that
Katie did. I appreciate you letting us view on-line and thank you again for all
of the time and work that you have put and are putting into this. Sincerely, VP
Brian: I second the thanks and kudos. Amazing, really. -Scott
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 15:19:41 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: [email protected]
To: Everyone
Subject: Re: Paradise is the pits
Message:
Okay, they work now.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 21:06:34 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To:
Brian
Subject: Thanks to Brian (Re: Paradise is the pits)
Message:
Okay, they work now. Thank you,
Brian. (How do you stand it? No wonder webmasters burn out after 6 months max.)
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Date: Fri, Feb 13, 1998
at 10:46:31 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To:
Everyone
Subject: A not-so-little trick
Message:
Dear
Forum: I apologize again for one of these long, drawn-out posts. I'd like your
feedback as to whether you think this stuff is useful. If not I'll try to
confine myself to more brief comments. I came across this discussion of
the Guru in Max Weber's The Sociology of Religion
(Beacon Press, 1963, 1991: p. 54) translated and compiled from Wirtschaft
und Gesellschaft (J.C.B. Mohr, 1922). I present it here because it
demonstrates that the type of thing Maharaji is doing derives from an ancient
Indian tradition, and that he has attempted to adapt that tradition to a western
form of charismatic leadership without subjecting himself the demands and
obligations imposed upon either a western or an eastern prophet or teacher. He
therefore does not actually fulfill the demands of either tradition.
Essentially, the type of mission involved in the 'Reas Satsang' from which
Maharaji traces his lineage (only part of which he acknowledges) is what Weber
calls a 'mystagogue' tradition. I quote: 'Very frequently dynasties of
mystagogues developed on the basis of a sacramental charisma which was regarded
as hereditary. These dynasties maintained their prestige for centuries,
investing their disciples with great authority and thus developing a kind of
hierarchical position. This was especially true in India, where the title of
guru was also used to designate distributors of salvation and
their plenipotentiaries..... Ethical doctrine was lacking in the mystagogue, who
distributed magical salvation, or at least doctrine played only a very
subordinate role in his work. Instead, his primary gift was hereditarily
transmitted magical art. Moreover, he normally made a living from his art, for
which there was a great demand. Consequently we must exclude him too from the
conception of prophet, even though he sometimes revealed new ways of salvation.'
Maharaji, therefore, deviates from the tradition of prophecy in the fact that he
earns a living (and then some) from what he does. However, even if we ignore
this, he deviates in other perhaps more important ways. Weber goes on to say
that the form of prophecy that can evolve out of the Indian tradition is what he
calls 'exemplary,' rather than 'ethical.' The primary reason for this is the
absence, in India, of a personal, transcendental, and ethical god, which is a
near-eastern concept. The ethical prophet presents himself as one who has
received his commission from god, and 'demands obedience as an ethical duty.'
The exemplary prophet, on the other hand, 'directs his demands for obedience to
the self-interest of those who crave salvation, recommending to them the same
path as he himself has traversed. The only role Maharaji clearly
fulfills is that of the mystagogue, and therefor what he transmits is a magical
art that has a supposed connection with salvation (and legitimated by the
lineage that he mostly denies). He does not fulfill any of the
requirements or obligations of a prophet (either ethical or exemplary), though
he often presents himself as one. This is very important, because one of the
well-worn excuses for M's behavior is that it is an 'Indian' tradition, and that
we should not expect him to conform to a Western standard of conduct. The point
here is that he doesn't even conform to an Eastern standard of conduct, which he
justifies on the basis that he is fulfilling a Westernized role. He and his
followers can make their claims about his mission only if you are compelled to
look at one set of standards at a time, and base your judgements about his
legitimacy on the set of standards about which you are ignorant. I have to say
that this trick is common to academia as well. -Scott
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Date: Fri, Feb 13, 1998
at 12:28:04 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To:
Scott T.
Subject: Re: A not-so-little trick
Message:
Scott, Thanks for the post. I find these useful. Anything
that can shed light on M, that can dispel the mystery, is good for me. What did
you mean that you find this common in academia as well?
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Date: Fri, Feb 13, 1998
at 14:15:28 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To:
Selena
Subject: Re: A not-so-little trick
Message:
Scott, Thanks for the post. I find these
useful. Anything that can shed light on M, that can dispel the mystery, is good
for me. What did you mean that you find this common in academia as well?
Selena: In academia it is sometimes a crossdisciplinary issue. An
assertion is legitimated in one discipline on the basis that it is accepted in
another. In that case it is usually not severly scrutinized in either. Commonly
happens when an assertion is made in a sociology journal on the basis of
economic principles, or in an economic journal on the basis of sociological
principles. One set of readers may be unfamiliar with the standards of the
other, so the assertion sneaks through. -Scott
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Date: Fri, Feb 13, 1998
at 15:09:59 (EST)
Poster: oiluesrdtgyuhi
Email: **
To: Scott T.
Subject: A not-so-little trick (Re: A
not-so-little trick)
Message:
Good Post scott.
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Date: Fri, Feb 13, 1998
at 17:28:57 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To:
Scott T.
Subject: Re: A not-so-little trick
Message:
Scott: Don't have the time for much of a response due to
other things happening in my life, but I wanted to let you know, that I do
appreciate reading your posts. I love serious objective analysis. John
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Date: Fri, Feb 13, 1998
at 17:37:23 (EST)
Poster: X
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: A not-so-little trick
Message:
You seem
adept at analysis. So what does a mango taste like?
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Date: Fri, Feb 13, 1998
at 17:54:17 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: X
Subject: Re: A not-so-little trick
Message:
You seem adept at analysis. So what does a
mango taste like? X: According to Maharaji it tastes like
turpentine... sort of. In order to try it out it's probably enough to know that
it's a fruit. If I was unfamiliar, and someone told me about a fruit that sort
of tasted like turpentine, I'd be curious... and half apprehensive that the guy
who told me might be about to drop dead. -Scott
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 12:47:19 (EST)
Poster: An Ex with an Axe to grind
Email:
To: Mr. X
Subject: A Mango's Taste (Re:
A not-so-little trick)
Message:
Dear Mr. X, - You wrote:
You seem adept at analysis. So what does a mango taste like?
- Here is a bit of what a mango tastes like: 1.) It is sweet. 2.) It
is refreshing. 3.) It is nourishing. 4.) It has no unfortunate or hidden
afteraffects. - Here is what Knowledge is like: 1.) It often seems to fulfill
one's social needs at first. 2.) It often seems to put one's inner turmoils to
rest at first. 3.) It may seem to provide a source of optimism in an otherwise
dismal situation at first. 4.) Eventually all of the above seem to fade and
repeated practice only seem to invoke vague memories of the initial promises.
Sincerely, An Ex with an Axe to grind
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 13:15:45 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: [email protected]
To: An Ex with an Axe to grind
Subject: Re: A Mango's
Taste (Re: A not-so-little trick)
Message:
Dear Mr. X, -
You wrote: You seem adept at analysis. So what does a mango taste
like? - Here is a bit of what a mango tastes like: 1.) It is sweet.
2.) It is refreshing. 3.) It is nourishing. 4.) It has no unfortunate or hidden
afteraffects. - Here is what Knowledge is like: 1.) It often seems to fulfill
one's social needs at first. 2.) It often seems to put one's inner turmoils to
rest at first. 3.) It may seem to provide a source of optimism in an otherwise
dismal situation at first. 4.) Eventually all of the above seem to fade and
repeated practice only seem to invoke vague memories of the initial promises.
Sincerely, An Ex with an Axe to grind Well put. The
argument that descriptions are inadequate and that you must experience something
first-hand is shortsighted. Knowledge is presented as perfection but the
instructions on how to get there are vague and misleading. A premie can't blame
perfection for not being perfect so she/he has to blame themself for not
experiencing it.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 13:31:09 (EST)
Poster: Katie off topic
Email:
[email protected]
To: X (CD)
Subject: Re: A
not-so-little trick
Message:
You seem adept at analysis.
So what does a mango taste like? CD - what is this 'X' stuff,
anyway? Chris X? You have a very distinctive writing style. I cannot believe
that Maharaji said that mangos taste like turpentine, by the way. He must have
had some bad mangoes. They do have a slight taste of pine (which is where he got
the turpentine from), but mostly taste like peach and pineapple mixed together.
The pine taste makes them really good, IMHO.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 14:36:26 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To:
Katie off topic
Subject: Re: A not-so-little trick
Message:
Actually, the mango story that M used to tell, which of
course he must have learned from his Pa, is about as deep and interesting as M
gets. It is a cute story and my children have enjoyed it when I have told it to
them. A basic fact that I have learned by living it and trying it is that
devotion to someone who does not recognize my existence is NOTfulfilling.
Another fact I have learned is that meditation on my breath is a useful
technique but it is hardly the ultimate experience, and it is also not that
fulfilling. But, to look on the bright side,and to end on a 'positive' note, I
do love mangos and hearing that story from M motivated me to find out what they
taste like. So thank you M for introducing me to mangos!
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 14:52:33 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
off topic
Subject: Re: A not-so-little trick
Message:
Is that really you, Chris, hiding at last? How pathetic.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 06:19:35 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug
Email:
To: An
Ex with an Axe to grind
Subject: Re: A Mango's Taste (Re: A
not-so-little trick)
Message:
Dear Mr. X, - You wrote:
You seem adept at analysis. So what does a mango taste like?
- Here is a bit of what a mango tastes like: 1.) It is sweet. 2.) It
is refreshing. 3.) It is nourishing. 4.) It has no unfortunate or hidden
afteraffects. - Here is what Knowledge is like: 1.) It often seems to fulfill
one's social needs at first. 2.) It often seems to put one's inner turmoils to
rest at first. 3.) It may seem to provide a source of optimism in an otherwise
dismal situation at first. 4.) Eventually all of the above seem to fade and
repeated practice only seem to invoke vague memories of the initial promises.
Sincerely, An Ex with an Axe to grind Remember the
claim (in the 70's)that GM's 'Knowledge' is 'The knowledge of all knowledges'?
Does the reflection of this 'super-knowledge' have to take the form of;a) the
crass soap-op. music of 'One Foundation? b) the mind-numbingly boring speeches
of GM (I say GM because I don't buy this revisionist nonsense aka Maharaji the
'humanitarian'- I'll always remember his 'Lord of the Universe' claim of the
early days) c) the clinical/corporate atmosphere of the current Elan Vital
etc... Where is the magic, wonder, awe of the so-called 'Knowledge of all
Knowledges'? The lowest commom denominator by all accounts.
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Date: Fri, Feb 13, 1998
at 06:41:01 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: [email protected]
To: Everyone
Subject: Forum Reset
Message:
Okay, the forum's reset, but ex-premie.org seems to be
down right now so the archives may not be available until I can upload them
after work tonight. Also, since the New Thread form is located on the main site,
you can't use the new form to start a thread. Use the old
one for now until the site comes back up. You may want to bookmark this for
those times when ex-premie.org is down. I should add it to the forum index page,
huh?...
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Date: Fri, Feb 13, 1998
at 23:54:28 (EST)
Poster: david
Email: [email protected]
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Forum Reset
Message:
its great to be here. iwas a practicing premie in the
days of phillys divine light dancers. and ayes ex is the word forme the
experience was just what it was ... life goes on and its what you make it,, i
was very surprised to find this ex group out here . but my truth is i thank you
all and maybe it was supposed to be there for us be well and somehow were all
still first cousins
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