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Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive
# 6 |
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From: Feb 13, 1998 |
To: Feb 20, 1998 |
Page: 4 Of: 5 |
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Nigel -:- A very
English incident -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 06:26:11 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A
very English incident -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 09:34:28 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: A
very English incident -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 11:54:55 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: A
very English incident -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 12:21:02 (EST)
___ex-mug -:- Re: A
very English incident -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 04:16:59 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: A
very English incident -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 08:38:17 (EST)
Sir David -:- Talking
of suicide -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 22:03:18 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re:
Talking of suicide -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 23:25:27 (EST)
___former lovers can be a -:- problem
sometimes -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 01:07:24 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re:
problem sometimes -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 01:28:12 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re:
Talking of suicide -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 02:02:52 (EST)
___CD -:- Re:
problem sometimes -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 02:35:39 (EST)
___I am -:- the god
you have been praying to -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 08:13:51 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re:
problem sometimes -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 13:54:23 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re:
problem sometimes -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 14:29:50 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: the
god you have been praying to -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 18:38:53 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: the
god you have been praying to -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 19:06:18 (EST)
___CD -:- Re:
problem sometimes -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 19:17:47 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: the
god you have been praying to -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 19:19:52 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: the
god you have been praying to -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 19:26:53 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re:
problem sometimes -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 21:11:57 (EST)
___thier logic ties me up -:- and
rapes me. a do do do, a da da da -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 22:26:02
(EST)
___VP -:- Re:
problem sometimes -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 23:40:07 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re:
problem sometimes -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 01:32:32 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: the
god you have been praying to -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 01:37:50 (EST)
___JW -:- Re:
Talking of suicide -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 02:18:04 (EST)
___ex-mug -:- Re: the
god you have been praying to -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 04:58:28 (EST)
___VP -:- Re:
Talking of suicide -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 08:15:00 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re:
Talking of suicide -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 05:29:31 (EST)
Anon -:- Radhasoami
connection -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 19:55:35 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re:
Radhasoami connection -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 10:32:41 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re:
Radhasoami connection -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 13:19:36 (EST)
___succession -:- confession
-:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 14:48:59 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re:
Radhasoami connection -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 23:35:51 (EST)
Anon -:- Search
Engines -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 19:28:50 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re:
Search Engines -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 12:08:43 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re:
Search Engines -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 22:47:41 (EST)
Jim -:- A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 16:31:07 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 17:32:09 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 17:39:47 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 18:36:45 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 18:47:05 (EST)
___lg -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 19:15:00 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 21:09:26 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 21:27:13 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 21:31:07 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 21:39:40 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 22:19:54 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 23:50:53 (EST)
___elena -:- Selena
-:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 00:32:47 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 01:48:38 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 13:51:42 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 14:40:11 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 16:15:35 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 17:03:47 (EST)
___david -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 21:05:14 (EST)
___david -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 21:05:29 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 02:43:34 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 15:16:04 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 15:28:16 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 16:21:34 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 16:39:35 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 16:46:25 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A
Valentine to My Lord -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 18:18:51 (EST)
Mr Ex -:- Maharaji's
long expected book! -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 04:18:39 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re:
Maharaji's long expected book! -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 03:35:05 (EST)
___ex-mug -:- Re:
Maharaji's long expected book! -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 05:39:15
(EST)
Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 06:26:11
(EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: [email protected]
To: Everyone
Subject: A very English incident
Message:
It was a full house in satsang one night with about
fifteen people crowded into an average sized living room. All were premies
except one - a girl who had been brought along by her premie friend, possibly a
work-colleague. It was her very first satsang but she sat attentively
throughout, and -who knows? - may have been having some sort of 'experience'.
But then it was time for Arti. Normally it would be unthinkable to sing our
devotional anthem if strangers were present, but for some inexplicable reason,
we sang it that night - the long version. To make matters worse this newcomer
happened to be sitting right in front of the altar, and one of the veteran
premies, who certainly should have known better, took the Arti tray and handed
it to her. Note for newer premies: an Arti tray was a decorated plate, or
sometimes metal dish (Indian brass designs were very popular, I remember). In
the middle of the plate, surrounded by flower petals, would be a small lighted
candle. The girl took the Arti tray with a look of bafflement, and sat there
confused as we launched into the song. Seeing the poor girl's confusion this
veteran premie (let's call him 'Kevin' to spare any blushes) leaned over and
hissed in her ear. 'Waft it, waft it...' he urged, helpfully, miming the
appropriate wafting technique with his hands. So the girl wafted... I was sat on
the other side of her and could see her face clearly. It was a picture of abject
misery and distress as she waved this wretched brass plate from side to side for
the duration of the song. I seem to remember Arti had about nine or ten verses,
and if you sang it slowly it seemed to last for an eternity. The premie girl who
had brought this friend along just sat head down, looking away, writhing in
embarrassment. Of course the unfortunate first-timer should have just said 'no',
point blank - and as soon as the situation became personally embarrassing should
have blown out the candle and walked out. They say that 'not causing a scene' is
supposed to be a typically British characteristic, but I'm not so sure. I think
there is something very powerful in our desire to comply with the requirements
of whatever social situation we find ourselves in. It is like when you see a
stage hypnotist achieving 100% compliance from his unfortunate volunteers when
they are required to make fools of themselves in front of an audience of
strangers. Very often the hypnotist doesn't even go through the charade of
putting his volunteers 'into a trance'. They'll obey his instructions to the
letter for the simple reason that they would feel even greater discomfort in not
complying. Social influence can be a very powerful thing, and I wonder whether
it might even be part of the glue that holds M's operation together. But
securing a life commitment from somebody is not the same as embarrassing them on
stage for five minutes, and the social conformity pressure has to operate at a
more subtle level. The person has to be eased in gently. No doubt had the
situation been handled differently the girl would in time - maybe only a few
weeks, even - have welcomed the opportunity to develop a perfect devotional
wafting technique further, would have regarded the task as a privilege, even.
But thanks to Kevin's misguided burst of enthuisasm, the visitor was never seen
again - so in a way you could say that that story has a happy ending, at least.
Back To
Index -:- Top of
Index
Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 09:34:28 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To:
Nigel
Subject: Re: A very English incident
Message:
It's fortunate that they didn't sing the Hindi version.
She might have concluded that they were singing to her, launching a new
religious movement. -Scott
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Index -:- Top of
Index
Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 11:54:55 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email:
[email protected]
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: A
very English incident
Message:
I admit that the holy water thing
seemed utterly ridiculious and incomprehensible to me. That and the passing of
one's hands through the candle flames of the arti tray. And yet I used to
practise these rituals every night because everybody else did and it would be
unseemly not to do so. How did you take your divine, holy water? Did you
eargerly drink it down or politely dab it on your forehead. There were some
premies who used to rub it into their hair, possibly as an insurance against
future balding.
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Index -:- Top of
Index
Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 12:21:02 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: [email protected]
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: A very English incident
Message:
I remember my first Arti. I was an aspirant at the time
(1971) and was invited to stay. I would have thought they were making up all the
verses, except that they all knew the words. It took forever for the
whole thing to pass. Slow learner, I got involved in the cult. Sheeeesh...
Back To
Index -:- Top of
Index
Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998
at 04:16:59 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug
Email:
To:
Nigel
Subject: Re: A very English incident
Message:
It was a full house in satsang one night with
about fifteen people crowded into an average sized living room. All were premies
except one - a girl who had been brought along by her premie friend, possibly a
work-colleague. It was her very first satsang but she sat attentively
throughout, and -who knows? - may have been having some sort of 'experience'.
But then it was time for Arti. Normally it would be unthinkable to sing our
devotional anthem if strangers were present, but for some inexplicable reason,
we sang it that night - the long version. To make matters worse this newcomer
happened to be sitting right in front of the altar, and one of the veteran
premies, who certainly should have known better, took the Arti tray and handed
it to her. Note for newer premies: an Arti tray was a decorated plate, or
sometimes metal dish (Indian brass designs were very popular, I remember). In
the middle of the plate, surrounded by flower petals, would be a small lighted
candle. The girl took the Arti tray with a look of bafflement, and sat there
confused as we launched into the song. Seeing the poor girl's confusion this
veteran premie (let's call him 'Kevin' to spare any blushes) leaned over and
hissed in her ear. 'Waft it, waft it...' he urged, helpfully, miming the
appropriate wafting technique with his hands. So the girl wafted... I was sat on
the other side of her and could see her face clearly. It was a picture of abject
misery and distress as she waved this wretched brass plate from side to side for
the duration of the song. I seem to remember Arti had about nine or ten verses,
and if you sang it slowly it seemed to last for an eternity. The premie girl who
had brought this friend along just sat head down, looking away, writhing in
embarrassment. Of course the unfortunate first-timer should have just said 'no',
point blank - and as soon as the situation became personally embarrassing should
have blown out the candle and walked out. They say that 'not causing a scene' is
supposed to be a typically British characteristic, but I'm not so sure. I think
there is something very powerful in our desire to comply with the requirements
of whatever social situation we find ourselves in. It is like when you see a
stage hypnotist achieving 100% compliance from his unfortunate volunteers when
they are required to make fools of themselves in front of an audience of
strangers. Very often the hypnotist doesn't even go through the charade of
putting his volunteers 'into a trance'. They'll obey his instructions to the
letter for the simple reason that they would feel even greater discomfort in not
complying. Social influence can be a very powerful thing, and I wonder whether
it might even be part of the glue that holds M's operation together. But
securing a life commitment from somebody is not the same as embarrassing them on
stage for five minutes, and the social conformity pressure has to operate at a
more subtle level. The person has to be eased in gently. No doubt had the
situation been handled differently the girl would in time - maybe only a few
weeks, even - have welcomed the opportunity to develop a perfect devotional
wafting technique further, would have regarded the task as a privilege, even.
But thanks to Kevin's misguided burst of enthuisasm, the visitor was never seen
again - so in a way you could say that that story has a happy ending, at least.
Hi all In 1974 I moved into a lunatic asylam called Luton Ashram.
Talk about from light to darkness! This had to be the craziest place on the
planet. One morning a guy called Bob woke us up at 5am for Arti, with a carving
knife at one of the resident's throat; it took four of us to subdue him. all the
best ex-mug
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Index -:- Top of
Index
Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998
at 08:38:17 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email:
[email protected]
To: ex-mug
Subject: Re: A very
English incident
Message:
I'd heard bad stories about Luton which
was why I thought I was lucky to be sent to Stoke on Trent ashram. However, I
soon realised I was out of luck when I woke one morning feeling ill. The nice
kind ashram secretary told me I was in my mind and proceeded to kick me out of
my sleeping bag. Oh the gentleness and love of Maharaji's world. The forced
singing of arti was standard. One day I flipped out and went down to London to
tell head office that I could stand it no more. Those shining lights of DLM in
head office at London gave me a thorough pasting and then sent me to see Mahatma
Ashokanand. He was some heavy dude, I found out. He called me irresponsible and
told me to go back to Stoke ashram and get up at 4 am each morning to meditate.
This was his own personal agya for me. Needless to say, I didn't keep that up
for long.
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Index
Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 22:03:18 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email:
[email protected]
To: Everyone
Subject: Talking
of suicide
Message:
I commited suicide in the seventies. This was
not a cry for help but a serious attempt to end it all. I did not blame Maharaji
for my committing suicide but I do think that the constant attempt to practise
and realise the knowledge, the endless satsang and mind numbing closetted
lifestyle did cause me to become severely depressed. When I committed suicide I
had a near death experience. I left my body and found myself in a place with
some nice people in it. They spent ages explaining to me that I had made a
mistake. They made no mention of Maharaji or the knowledge. It wasn't even
considered in my life's purpose. To kill myself I had taken a massive overdose.
There is no doubt that it was a miracle that I did not leave my body forever. I
took the overdose back in 1976. I'd come home from the evening satsang and was
completely depressed and dangeriously low. The balance of my mind was disturbed
and all that. I took about 30 paracetomol tablets, 10 sleeping tablets and about
5 tranquilisers, just for good measure. Put the Pink Floyd, 'Wish You Were Here'
album on and settled down to die quietly. Three days later I found myself lying
on the living room floor. I couldn't stand up and was so weak I could only
crawl. But I was alive. I remembered having been in a place somewhere, sitting
and listening to some people talking to me. They were very nice and
understanding people and they were telling me that this was not the way it had
to be, that I did not have to kill myself and that I could go back and live
again. They totally reassured me that I was supposed to be alive and there was a
purpose for it. There was no judgement there from these people, only love and
compassion. So when I found myself alive and lying on my living room floor, I
was very grateful and happy to be back here again. I had been given a second
chance. Later that day I was taken to the hospital and when I told a doctor how
many tablets I'd taken he exclaimed, 'You should be dead!'
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 23:25:27 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To:
Sir David
Subject: Re: Talking of suicide
Message:
Sir
David: I had not even thought about it much but I attempted suicide in 1979. It
was after I had left M. Got a gas mask and hooked it up directly to the gas
stove, and put it over my face. Like you, I then settled down. About two hours
later I woke up with a gawdawful headache, and a feeling that what I intended
was a mistake. Never considered suicide again after that. At the time, I had
still not actually given up on Maharaji (though I had left the mission, and no
longer attended satsang), but was very disappointed that he apparently had done
nothing about 'bringing peace to the world.' Shortly after that I decided that
R. Buckminster Fuller had a better chance with a new housing design. Still a bit
disappointed that the 'fly's eye' dome didn't catch on, but feel R.B.F. took a
real shot at it, and left a lasting legacy. Robert Bly says that many people
consider, and even try, suicide. He feels that as long as you don't actually do
it... it reflects a stage in achieving maturity. The key is to share the
experience with others so you can put it in its proper context, and you don't
have to keep returning to the same lesson. Again, at the time I did not connect
this with M at all. Even now, I'm not sure that attributing it to him wouldn't
rob me of a stage in my own growth. What ends well... -Scott
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 01:07:24 (EST)
Poster: former lovers can be a
Email: **
To: Scott T.
Subject: problem sometimes (Re: Talking of
suicide)
Message:
Hell, it's understandable. After having the
easter bunny, santa,tooth fairy, monsters, ghosts, witches, turn out to be
false, and seeing all the hallowed adults you look up to as a child turn out to
be what they are, and the cops and politicians and priests show thier
corruption, then the lord comes to bring the millenium and even he turns out to
be false, suicide would come to mind. I know 3 for sure dead premies. Girls. All
former ashram victims. maharaji's trip was WAY to heavy. If the jewish king
david had his vile deeds aired for all the world to see, why not maharaji? The
difference of course is that david was crushed by the design features of
embarrassment and guilt and regret and turned himself around by asking the
amazing creativity for some clarity and whatever else. maharaji will not be
doing anything like that. HE is the god so he will continue to be doomed and
like a black hole for peoples devotion and money. We all killed ourselves for
years. That was exactly what his reccomendation- oh excuse me, that was exactly
what the lord demanded. 100% lose of yourself. If you don't remember, real
sevice to him entailed NOTHING for you. You might remember when he put the
squeeze on the residence premies, he was walking by where they would have a
short break during the day and he heard laughter and he spoke about it in a
program and said ' sorry guys,' that had to stop and that was chit chat. Goodbye
any fun talk. He played the lord god thing to the maximum possible hilt. He has
chosen to continue. I wish I could just walk away but he has to be crushed. I
cant make it happen but I will do my part. Sorry to be so heavy on valentines
day but REALLY. We kissed his god damn feet.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 01:28:12 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To:
former lovers can be a
Subject: Re: problem sometimes (Re: Talking of
suicide)
Message:
OK, but as I said in a post below, I'm less
worried about MJ than about what comes later... He is conservative, and won't
play it to the hilt. As far as I'm concerned he's still an eight-year-old
without a father. -Scott
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 02:02:52 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email:
[email protected]
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re:
Talking of suicide
Message:
Perhaps not attribute the suicide to
Maharaji. I wouldn't in my case or perhaps in ANY case. The reason being that
Maharaji was completely and blissfully unaware of the bad effects of trying to
practise the knowledge with constant and very serious satsang, service and
meditation. Let's face it - he never tried that dicipline day in, day out for
months and years on end. I genuinely think that Maharaji did not know what a
devastating effect this was having on some western people. At best, people soon
become fed up of the discipline. At worst they can become severely depressed and
isolated, always thinking that they are being troubled by their mind when in
reality they are trying to achieve an impossible standard.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 02:35:39 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: former
lovers can be a
Subject: Re: problem sometimes (Re: Talking of
suicide)
Message:
> I wish I could just walk away but he has to
be crushed. I cant make it happen but I will do my part. Sorry to be so heavy on
valentines day but REALLY. We kissed his god damn feet. Burke, You are helping
pay for the gulf fleet fuel and $30-40 million for the Star Clinton
investigation among a host of other worthwhile projects being undertaken by
rational adults who were not subjected to your ashram training period. At the
moment we will ingnore the atrocities in Algeria and the fake drugs being sold
to poor people around the world which do not help with their diseases. Are you
sure M is the root of the problem? Do you prefer Republicans, Democrats or Jerry
Springer? Yes, the wonders of clear rational dialog and sitcoms! Your analysis
on the roots of suicide may have some serious flaws. Make sure you know the
correct facts. Many conclusions being presented on this site are dubious because
of weak detective work. See if you can figure out the EV tax story first before
you fool around with a witchhunt on the more dangerous subjects. Who killed
Jesus and Socrates?
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 08:13:51 (EST)
Poster: I am
Email: **
To: CD
Subject: the god you have been praying to (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
Well as you know I am back and forth on this. Even on the
same night. Socrates was a suicide as he was given a choice of leaving. Jesus
walked headlong into death knowing in advance that he was. Again he had an
option also. Whatever thier reasons they chose thier end. I am not involved in
his tax story. Education is what I was thinking. And only his own words with
some commentary. In a way I prefer maharaji over all the people you mentioned
because after all these years he is like family. But since he is a regular
person but has decided to spread the message to 50 countries that he is god
(wink wink) I find myself on the side of his mom on this subject. Face it, his
message is getting more honed all the time and if it wasn't for people with
memories or people that read his occasional revealing sentences what hope for
honesty would simple folk have in those 50 counries? Fine if he wants to reveal
the breath or whatever but he is plainly trying to strongly imply to the new
people that he is the one that knows them and should be adored and carried on
thier shoulders as the savior of mankind. That is not fair. His video footage of
his life has so many moments of godhood from his early years that it LOOKS like
it must be true. I mena the early years with us. And his whole effort looks so
humanitarian but it is insidious falsehood of the largest scale. Can thier be a
more dishonorable thing then to boldly pretend to be god? Not if you don't
believe in a concious god. Look at the dilemma of countess people. They have to
discerne wether maharaji is the one god sent and they only have the videos. That
is not fair to say the least. So the comparison with tv people, actually I find
most of the dem. and republicans to be honorable people who are as awake to
thier lives as they can be. Maybe way more than us. Flawed yes, but you can
forget about getting out of that condition. You fix one thing and you are still
caught in the nature of being human. Certainly maharaji has not avoided so many
of the so- called 7 or 8 or whatever deadly sins.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 13:54:23 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: problem sometimes (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
When you open up a bit, Chris, you sound incredibly
pompous. Leaving little detective clues, as if you're waiting for the right
moment to finally explain all. Can you see that?
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 14:29:50 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
[email protected]
To: CD
Subject: Re: problem sometimes
(Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
Dear Chris, Of course there are
many many things in the world worse than Maharaji and his organization. And of
course Maharaji is not the root of all evil. Maharaji is insignificant, really.
There are issues that worry me a whole lot more than Maharaji does. That's why I
don't care if people follow him, as long as they are happy doing it. I figure
that they could be doing worse things. BUT, a lot of people who post on this
site were hurt deeply and personally by being part of Maharaji's organization.
It's sort of like child abuse. You have to get past it before you can do
anything else. I don't agree with Burke that Maharaji needs to be 'crushed'. I
really don't care one way or another, to be honest. But I do think that Burke
and others are hurt and angry and this needs to be acknowledged and talked about
so he and all of us can get on with our lives. And to me that's the purpose of
this forum and web site.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 18:38:53 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Burke
Subject: Re: the god you have been praying to (Re: Talking of
suicide)
Message:
>Fine if he wants to reveal the breath or
whatever but he is plainly trying to strongly imply to the new people that he is
the one that knows them and should be adored and carried on thier shoulders as
the savior of mankind. That is not fair. Burke, He is doing something to wake
people up to another level of awareness with some success and you are a couch
potato. >His video footage of his life has so many moments of godhood from
his early years that it LOOKS like it must be true. I mena the early years with
us. And his whole effort looks so humanitarian but it is insidious falsehood of
the largest scale. Maharaji has publicly attributed the success of spreading the
Knowledge to the efforts of the premies. He promotes the understanding that
human beings are equal regardless of their physical or social attributes. He
does this by a solid experience not by theory. M is quite successful at what he
does. You can be jealous of him or use him as a mentor and role model for your
own personal success. >Look at the dilemma of countess people. They have to
discerne wether maharaji is the one god sent and they only have the videos. That
is not fair to say the least. Many people do not worry about the 'god' issue but
find new found common sense and understanding in what M teaches. CD
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 19:06:18 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: the god you have been praying to (Re: Talking of
suicide)
Message:
Chris, Now that we've got you talking you're
really kind of funny. When you say: >M is quite successful at what he does.
are you referring to M's stated purpose for 'coming into this world', namely
saving it? Or do you just mean ripping people off?
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 19:17:47 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: problem sometimes (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
> That's why I don't care if people follow him, as
long as they are happy doing it. I figure that they could be doing worse things.
How nice of you! >But I do think that Burke and others are hurt and angry and
this needs to be acknowledged and talked about so he and all of us can get on
with our lives. And to me that's the purpose of this forum and web site. There
are many other agendas on this site. For example, Burke has his anger AND enjoys
writing an intriguing article. Mr. Ex wants to find some tax problem with Elan
Vital. Some people want to know what M is up to these days. I enjoy and learn
from discussion and also refute the claims that life being part of M's
organization is akin to child abuse. Other people discuss wether there might be
some validity to Knowledge and wether the notion of a heart is a dangerous idea.
Rumour spreading is also popular. These examples are just the tip of the
iceburg. Regards, CD
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 19:19:52 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: the god you have been praying to (Re: Talking of
suicide)
Message:
>are you referring to M's stated purpose for
'coming into this world', namely saving it? Or do you just mean ripping people
off? Both, one for you and one for me.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 19:26:53 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: the god you have been praying to (Re: Talking of
suicide)
Message:
Assuming I'll take the latter, how do you keep a
straight face and say he's successful at saving the world?
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 21:11:57 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
[email protected]
To: CD
Subject: Re: problem sometimes
(Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
> That's why I
don't care if people follow him, as long as they are happy doing it. I figure
that they could be doing worse things. How nice of you! Oh Chris, it
was a joke! You knew that, I hope! Seriously, I know there are a lot of agendas
on this site and I was just trying to state mind. I realize that life within
Maharaji's organization was not akin to abuse for everyone, but I think it's
important to acknowledge that it was for some people. Even premies can
acknowledge that without invalidating their OWN experience. Regards from Katie
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 22:26:02 (EST)
Poster: thier logic ties me up
Email: bb
To: CD
Subject: and rapes me. a do do do, a da da da (Re:
Talking of suicide)
Message:
Hi there CD. Actually I hardly ever
sit on the couches and it's because I hardly ever watch tv. Everyone here knows
that the only time I watch was to see his videos. I've seen some of the latest
amaroo and read december scripts. Chris, there IS no other 'level' that he is
trying to wake me up too. Just devotion to himas the master and I have certainly
done that plenty. He doesn't respond and his words show that he does not recieve
anything that was felt or thought in his direction. Chris ol bean I have not
heard him talk much about that other subject. You are free to view him as you
can. You know what I object to and I am not trying to pound you with it.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 23:40:07 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: problem sometimes (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
CD- I am so glad you brought up Jesus. At least he had
the guts, while proclaiming to be a perfect master, to stick to his story. He
didn't hide in some expensive house in the hills. He was willing to die rather
than change his claims. I guess M doesn't like the idea of a cross... Regards,
VP
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998
at 01:32:32 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To:
VP
Subject: Re: problem sometimes (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
CD- I am so glad you brought up Jesus. At least
he had the guts, while proclaiming to be a perfect master, to stick to his
story. He didn't hide in some expensive house in the hills. He was willing to
die rather than change his claims. I guess M doesn't like the idea of a cross...
Regards, VP I had this thought about Jesus returning from Gethsemene
to tell everyone that he had talked things over with the Father... and had
decided to raise money from the Romans to build a villa. So what did this idiot
John, who ate bugs, lose his head over? -Scott
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998
at 01:37:50 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: the god you have been praying to (Re: Talking of
suicide)
Message:
CD states: <> I can't think of anyone I'd be LESS likely to use as a
role model than Maharaji. In what manner do you consider him a success? The only
thing he is successful at is accumulating wealth and material possessions, which
is, by today's society's standards, considered a success, I guess, but the
methods he uses to get these I think are despicable. This is most certainly not
my aim in life, to rip people off and get them to give me all their money. In
that respect, yes, I guess, Maharaji is a great success, but certainly not one I
look up to.
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998
at 02:18:04 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: [email protected]
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Talking of suicide
Message:
I commited suicide in the seventies. This was
not a cry for help but a serious attempt to end it all. I did not blame Maharaji
for my committing suicide but I do think that the constant attempt to practise
and realise the knowledge, the endless satsang and mind numbing closetted
lifestyle did cause me to become severely depressed. When I committed suicide I
had a near death experience. I left my body and found myself in a place with
some nice people in it. They spent ages explaining to me that I had made a
mistake. They made no mention of Maharaji or the knowledge. It wasn't even
considered in my life's purpose. To kill myself I had taken a massive overdose.
There is no doubt that it was a miracle that I did not leave my body forever. I
took the overdose back in 1976. I'd come home from the evening satsang and was
completely depressed and dangeriously low. The balance of my mind was disturbed
and all that. I took about 30 paracetomol tablets, 10 sleeping tablets and about
5 tranquilisers, just for good measure. Put the Pink Floyd, 'Wish You Were Here'
album on and settled down to die quietly. Three days later I found myself lying
on the living room floor. I couldn't stand up and was so weak I could only
crawl. But I was alive. I remembered having been in a place somewhere, sitting
and listening to some people talking to me. They were very nice and
understanding people and they were telling me that this was not the way it had
to be, that I did not have to kill myself and that I could go back and live
again. They totally reassured me that I was supposed to be alive and there was a
purpose for it. There was no judgement there from these people, only love and
compassion. So when I found myself alive and lying on my living room floor, I
was very grateful and happy to be back here again. I had been given a second
chance. Later that day I was taken to the hospital and when I told a doctor how
many tablets I'd taken he exclaimed, 'You should be dead!' David, I
wanted to thank you for sharing this experience. I know it probably isn't the
easiest thing to talk about. I never tried to commit suicide, but I recall a
couple of periods when I was a premie that I seriously considered it. On time in
particular was in late 1980, when I was sent to San Francisco to be the
community coordinator for DLM after being in Miami for almost two years. In
Miami, I had seen first had the abuse that was being inflicted on a lot of
premies, and how Maharaji didn't care one wit what happened to the premies who
were trying to dedicate to him, and I also saw the monumental material greed
that Maharaji had. I also saw that he really had given up the idea of bringing
either peace or knowledge to the world, like he had promised he would. He was
just becomming a megalomaniac wanting more and more stuff, under the guise of
being the perfect master. I also saw a lot of the illegal fundraising and how M
was lying to the premies that he wasn't raising money for a big Boeing 707 jet,
but was raising the money for a world tour. A big lie. And as a honcho in DLM, I
helped foster the lie, and to some extent the abuse. It really challeneged the
values I had been raised to consider important, like honesty and caring for
other people. Anyway, I pulled all the strings I could to get out of SF because
I had little faith left in M. I thought if I went to some community somewhere, I
could get the feeling of faith and devotion back. But I never really could. In
San Francisco, I can recall sitting in Golden Gate Park in the middle of the day
considering killing myself. I prayed, I practiced knowledge, but the feeling
didn't go away. That lasted for a few months. The incredibly insensitive actions
of some of the DLM leadership, like David Smith especially, confirmed what I had
already seen in Miami. I don't know why the suicidal feelings went away. I think
it was because I got a job and started making non-premie friends who I began
spending more time with (surruptitiously) and I felt a lot of support from some
of them. But the faith never really came back. It was really gone by then. It
took awhile, but I finally left for good, because at some time I stopped blaming
myself and realized it was Maharaji that was the problem.
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998
at 04:58:28 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: the god you have been praying to (Re: Talking of
suicide)
Message:
>Fine if he wants to reveal the
breath or whatever but he is plainly trying to strongly imply to the new people
that he is the one that knows them and should be adored and carried on thier
shoulders as the savior of mankind. That is not fair. Burke, He is doing
something to wake people up to another level of awareness with some success and
you are a couch potato. >His video footage of his life has so many moments of
godhood from his early years that it LOOKS like it must be true. I mena the
early years with us. And his whole effort looks so humanitarian but it is
insidious falsehood of the largest scale. Maharaji has publicly attributed the
success of spreading the Knowledge to the efforts of the premies. He promotes
the understanding that human beings are equal regardless of their physical or
social attributes. He does this by a solid experience not by theory. M is quite
successful at what he does. You can be jealous of him or use him as a mentor and
role model for your own personal success. >Look at the dilemma of countess
people. They have to discerne wether maharaji is the one god sent and they only
have the videos. That is not fair to say the least. Many people do not worry
about the 'god' issue but find new found common sense and understanding in what
M teaches. CD Dear CD You said that M has publicly attributed the
success of spreading his knowledge to the effort of the premies. Words are
cheap. Of course he is going to humour the people who work for him without pay.
He more likely pays lip-service to the understanding that human beings are equal
regardless of their physical or social attributes. His is an organisation that
by it's very nature does not pomote equality. Look at the track record dating
back to the early seventies. There are the honchos and the plebs. What's equal
about that? all the best ex-mug
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998
at 08:15:00 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Sir
David
Subject: Re: Talking of suicide
Message:
Sir
David, Thank you very much for this suicide post. (And thanks to JIm for the
'Valentine ' post, too.) I lost a premie who I loved very much to suicide, as I
have said before. This person was diagnosed with severe depression. It had begun
to manifest physically. I know that part of it was disillusion with M, but I had
never considered that it could actually be connected to the rigorous
requirements of the meditation, service, satsang, programs, etc. I believe this
was also true for this person. I also think my friend had a lot of guilt because
he couldn't serve M fully (move into an ashram, etc.) because he had kids. I
think that was a huge burden on his heart. I thank Selena for sharing that
insight as well. Thanks so very much for all of the honesty here, everyone. It's
hard opening yourself up but I, for one, really appreciate hearing these posts.
Love, VP
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Date: Tues, Feb 17,
1998 at 05:29:31 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email:
[email protected]
To: VP
Subject: Re: Talking of
suicide
Message:
Both JW and VP comments read and noted with
thanks.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 19:55:35 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To:
Everyone
Subject: Radhasoami connection
Message:
In the
'Background' section of this site it states: Maharaji's father's personal
guru is said to have been Grand Master Anand Swarup.Swarup fought a succession
battle in 1914 against friends and family of the previous Master. He created a
large township called Dayalbagh and started a number of industries staffed by
his followers. I am sure that this 'Anand Swarup' is an entirely different
man than the 'Sarupanand' who was actually Shri Hans' guru. This is a reasonably
important point to clear up in as much as the Radhasoami influence (which is
much cited here) is possibly only by virtue of the reputed connection between
Shri Hans and Sawan Singh who was indeed a well-known Radhasoami Guru. (Prof.
David Lane says that Shri Hans was initiated by Sawan Singh but that Sarupanand
of Guna was his eventual Guru) It would seem sensible to get the facts straight
here if possible. Not much seems to be known about this Sarupanand fellow
though. David Lane writes further that there is a book available from UCLA
called 'Advait Sant Mat' (or something like that) which tells of Sarupanand and
his lineage. Worth following up anyone?
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 10:32:41 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To:
Anon
Subject: Re: Radhasoami connection
Message:
In the 'Background' section of this site it
states: Maharaji's father's personal guru is said to have been Grand Master
Anand Swarup.Swarup fought a succession battle in 1914 against friends and
family of the previous Master. He created a large township called Dayalbagh and
started a number of industries staffed by his followers. I am sure that this
'Anand Swarup' is an entirely different man than the 'Sarupanand' who was
actually Shri Hans' guru. This is a reasonably important point to clear up in as
much as the Radhasoami influence (which is much cited here) is possibly only by
virtue of the reputed connection between Shri Hans and Sawan Singh who was
indeed a well-known Radhasoami Guru. (Prof. David Lane says that Shri Hans was
initiated by Sawan Singh but that Sarupanand of Guna was his eventual Guru) It
would seem sensible to get the facts straight here if possible. Not much seems
to be known about this Sarupanand fellow though. David Lane writes further that
there is a book available from UCLA called 'Advait Sant Mat' (or something like
that) which tells of Sarupanand and his lineage. Worth following up anyone?
Anon: I noticed no one has followed up on this. Anand Swarup sounds
a great deal like Sarupanand. What, besides the slight change in nomenclature,
makes you think they are different? -Scott
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 13:19:36 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Scott
T.
Subject: Re: Radhasoami connection
Message:
I
noticed no one has followed up on this. Anand Swarup sounds a great deal like
Sarupanand. What, besides the slight change in nomenclature, makes you think
they are different? -Scott Scott, For some time I too mistook this
'AnandSwarup' for the Sarupanand that I had heard was Shri Hans' guru. I bought
and read the book by Mark Jurgensmeyer called 'Radhasoami Reality' which is
somewhat of a thorough study of that lineage and which speaks of him at length.
I am quite familiar therefore with the history of Anand Swarup who was
widely-known as a Radhasoami Guru and whose life is well documented. David Lane
(who has made a considerable study of the Radhasoami Tradition as you probably
know) bought to my attention in an email that the Guru of ShriHans was another
guru called Sarupanand from Guna. (Anand Swarup was from Dayalbagh). As did some
current premies who were interested coincidentally. Given that there are
probably dozens of gurus with similar sounding names and that Sarupanand (with
that particular spelling) has been written and spoken of for years by premies
(notably the older Indian Mahatmas) as being Shri Hansji's guru, it would not
seem unlikely that he is the guy in question and not the more famous one whose
name is spelled differently anyway. I agree no-one seems particularly interested
in this. I personally found that studying the whole past lineage thing helped me
to understand the prosaic mechanisms that are at play in this whole business.
Another thing is that Anand Swarup very distinctly did not pass on the mantle of
Guruship to Shri Hansji.It was to someone else. I know that these Indian Gurus
spawn dozens of pretending successors but even so, if Shri Hans had been a
notable disciple of Anand Swarup then it would have been documented in Mark
Jurgensmeyers book for a start. I feel slightly responsible for the error on the
background page of this site. The former author of this site, David, asked me if
I knew anything of Sarupanand. I was then under the impression that AnandSwarup
was the man and said so. Thus I may have contributed, inadvertently, to what I
feel is an incorrect version of the history of DLM. I thought it worth
mentioning as the credibility of this website is obviously tied up, to some
extent, with the accuracy of its reporting. Possibly Brian may make this
correction when he has the time.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 14:48:59 (EST)
Poster: succession
Email: bb
To: Anon
Subject: confession (Re: Radhasoami connection)
Message:
I for one would like to let you know that the issue is
interesting but I didn't know what to ask. It helps to know the history because
it helps debunk the line of godhead idea. I'm sure others found it interesting
also.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 23:35:51 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
[email protected]
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Radhasoami
connection
Message:
I definitely think this is worth following up.
I think it was the phrasing of your question 'Worth following up anyone?' that
may have stopped people from responding. It sounds as if you want someone else
to follow it up, and it's something I don't have the expertise to research. On
the other hand, if you were asking if it was worthwhile for you (or someone else
knowledgeable) to follow up, I think yes. I'm not sure if Maharaji is still
promoting the succession idea like he did in the seventies (anyone know?) but it
was certainly prevalent then (I always wondered about the lineage, too. Premies
always said that Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, etc., etc. were in the lineage. This
sounds a little far-fetched now, doesn't it?). I know that I lost a lot of
respect for the sanctity of the four meditation techniques when Mike Addison
said that one of Maharaji's mahatmas showed him nine techniques in India. I
think that investigating the lineage might have a similar effect.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 19:28:50 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To:
Everyone
Subject: Search Engines
Message:
I just did a
search (using Alta Vista) on 'Maharaji'. What came up was a crop of outdated
URL's from the old version of this site. It occured to me that it must be
confusing for people to see all these old defunct links. Can anything be done to
remove them from search engines and to replace them with the new URL's? (I
believe that you can put connecting pages at all the old addresses which
automatically send you to the new address)
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 12:08:43 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: [email protected]
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Search Engines
Message:
While I was making the changes to the site, I was being
re-directed to the homepage whenever requesting a missing page. I've been under
the impression that this was still happening. A check today shows that this
isn't true. I sent email to the server today asking for clarification on this.
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Date: Tues, Feb 17,
1998 at 22:47:41 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
[email protected]
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Search Engines
Message:
I heard back from the site server today. They are no
longer redirecting 404's (Page Not Found errors) to the homepage. I'm not about
to upload a mess of redirect pages to the site. I have found hits on the new
pages in searches, so the spiders are active. The search spiders will weed out
the dead pages when they receive 404's back.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 16:31:07 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email: [email protected]
To: Everyone
Subject: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Actually, Maharaji, I used to sign Valentine Day cards to
you all the time. This year, I've got a question: do you know who I am? I think
you might now because I was one of the earlier, more vocal ex's. Maybe you've
seen the page. But how about before then? Back when I thougth you wee constantly
there, universal and caring. Did you even know I existed? Obviously, the
answer's 'no.' Here's one, Maharaji: who was Elaine in Vancouver? Can't answer
that? She was this really sweet premie who used to hang around the ashram a lot
in 72 and 73 but who couldn't move in because of her kids. She killed herself in
'75. You were everything to her. Hopefully, it didn't take you too long to
recover from the shock of her death.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 17:32:09 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To:
Jim
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
I
received Knowledge in San Francisco on Feb. 14, 1974. There was a time when I
thought that had some significance. -Scott
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 17:39:47 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Jim That
info about Elaine was so disturbing. I came very very close to that. The only
thing that kept me from it was my love for my children. Still, I spent most of
the seventies depressed and confused because I was a parent and didn't know how
to serve M, and truely give the way he seemed to want. Premies can justify that
me and my stupid concepts all they want, but as far as I am concerned, I missed
10+ years of enjoying my childrem growing up. I am still trying to deal with
that. At least I didn't kill myself, but I wanted to, many times. Now I see how
lucky I was to have those kies, they are the anchors that kept me from being
swept away into blisstonia.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 18:36:45 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Selena
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Yeah, some
will say that Elaine, bless her heart, was always a little nervous (suggesting
that she'd have killed herself anyway). Who knows? I only know that Maharaji's
mind-fuck destabalized all of us as we tried to stuff our minds and identities
down the garbage disposal of his love. By the way, what are kies and how can I
get one?
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 18:47:05 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Yeah, some will say that Elaine, bless her
heart, was always a little nervous (suggesting that she'd have killed herself
anyway). Who knows? I only know that Maharaji's mind-fuck destabalized all of us
as we tried to stuff our minds and identities down the garbage disposal of his
love. By the way, what are kies and how can I get one? If you want
kies, get a CS degree. Kies are the result of 14 years of programming/computing.
I am a fast touch-typist, who, on my days off, has an aversion to proof-reading.
Hence we have kies, and all kinds of creative writing. Sorry. I really should be
more careful The whole argument of what might have been seems to be popular with
the premies I know. They argue that my life may have been worse without M. Who
knows? Since I don't have that data I see no reason to use that set of ideas to
help me in my recovery.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 19:15:00 (EST)
Poster: lg
Email:
To: Selena
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Yeah, some will say that Elaine, bless her
heart, was always a little nervous (suggesting that she'd have killed herself
anyway). Who knows? I only know that Maharaji's mind-fuck destabalized all of us
as we tried to stuff our minds and identities down the garbage disposal of his
love. By the way, what are kies and how can I get one? If you want kies, get a
CS degree. Kies are the result of 14 years of programming/computing. I am a fast
touch-typist, who, on my days off, has an aversion to proof-reading. Hence we
have kies, and all kinds of creative writing. Sorry. I really should be more
careful The whole argument of what might have been seems to be popular with the
premies I know. They argue that my life may have been worse without M. Who
knows? Since I don't have that data I see no reason to use that set of ideas to
help me in my recovery. They argue that my life may have been
worse without M. Who knows? Since I don't have that data I see no reason to use
that set of ideas to help me in my recovery. Selena. Once at a knowledge
session, I recall M said that knowledge wouldn't change our lives. I don't
remember the year, perhaps in 86 or 87. I remember because at that time I was
questioning myself about the validity of the whole thing. I quit going to all
programs from mid 87.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 21:09:26 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
[email protected]
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A Valentine
to My Lord
Message:
Yeah, some will say that Elaine,
bless her heart, was always a little nervous (suggesting that she'd have killed
herself anyway). Who knows? I only know that Maharaji's mind-fuck destabalized
all of us as we tried to stuff our minds and identities down the garbage
disposal of his love. By the way, what are kies and how can I get one?
{Hi Jim, great to see you posting, when, like me, you told everyone
you were taking a break} Of course the girl might have killed herself anyway.
She was nervous, right? Unhappy, even. I think you'll find knowledge works best
for folk who are pretty well socially-adjusted already. The 'weary and the weak'
have a tougher time all round. I work amongst unhappy people. The clients are
heroin addicts. Heroin addicts are deeply unhappy uncool people, whether ot not
this is apparent from Lou Reed albums or the 'Trainspotting' film. (Am I the
only person in the whole of the middle-class-but-cool-used-to-be-a-pop-festival-
attending-drug-abusing-hippy-but-then-had-to-come-back-to-reality-when-
the-poverty-got-too-much world to hate that movie?) The counsellors, outreach
workers, 'therapists' (as some staff prefer to be known), are ALSO unhappy
people - what with the stress of hearing, day in, day out, accounts of child
abuse, battling with the habit, doing rehab for the 'n'th time, the struggles of
having to renounce old friendships d get back into mainstream life, whilst
knowing that in the present industrial and economic climate these people, for
all their best intentions, are NOT going to find work, are NOT going to get
access to their estranged children who, perhaps, might have beeen luckier never
to have been born, and are simply NOT going to get very far in life. What these
agency workers offer isn't even therapy in any orthodox psycho-dynamic sense,
because, as anybody who studied the area will know, psychotherapy is crap; the
best you can offer is better described as 'social support', ie., just listening,
chatting and being on the client's side. Twenty years ago the solution would
have been so simple: just tell them all (clients and counsellors) about Guru
Maharaj ji, bring them along to satsang. It would be so beautiful to see that
change within, that connecting to the source of everything, that divine spark...
[Excuse me a small digression - but I don't remember anybody ever having been
brought along to satsang who hadn't already been, maybe unofficially, vetted in
some way as to whether they were mentally stable, socially acceptable, and not
likely to start arguing in the middle and wreck everybody else's experience of
the truth. Modern day premies, I understand do not have daily satsang in the way
that us oldies used to, so will not know about that nightly experience, the
three-song sandwich with Arti for dessert which, when I come to think of it, was
probably the most powerful item in M's toolkit (foolkit?). No wonder so many
premies deserted in the early eighties when satsang was abolished. Listening to
other premies share satsang was, for me at least, ALWAYS so much more enjoyable
than watching M himself, live or on video). But I am digressing even within my
digression now, the main point being: middle class premies are so much nicer,
and tend to have disposable incomes available for donation to community funds.
Whatever they claim, M's followers are NOT a cross-section of society, and never
will be.] There are many spurious escapes from difficult life experiences, and
'knowledge' is just one of them - no better, and probably worse than, say,
hypnosis or relaxation tapes. Maharaj ji provided temporary sedation for me at
an extremely painful time in my life, but only by making me look away from the
real world rather than develop the skills to cope with that world - just as
junkies look to the needle rather than the causes of their unhappiness, and I'm
not sure I can entirely blame them for doing so. But now I'm damned if I'll ever
again recommend to anybody that they follow Maharaj ji or follow anybody.
Following is folly, and simple answers are exactly that: simple. It is simple to
be foolish and foolish to be simple. best wishes
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 21:27:13 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
[email protected]
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: A Valentine to
My Lord
Message:
Dear Nigel (glad you are back, whether
temporarily or permanently), We've had a couple of talks about premie suicides
while you and Jim were gone - not sure if you guys read them. I find it scary
and disturbing is that a lot of the ex-premies who post on here know at least
one other premie who committed suicide. You wrote that knowledge didn't work
very well for the 'weary and the weak'. I agree. But, at the time I received
knowledge (1972), it was supposed to be a remedy for all unhappiness, etc., etc.
If this wasn't true for you, then you just weren't doing enough meditation,
service, and satsang or you weren't devoted enough to Guru Maharaji. Plus there
was all these other people that knowledge was apparently working for who you
could hear talking about their blissful experiences every night. This resulted
in a lot of guilt for people who didn't experience much through knowledge - like
me. I always felt like it was my fault because I wasn't doing enough. (I've
since found out that a lot of people who gave 'blissful' satsang were pretty
unhappy. In fact, I used to give satsang and I KNOW I was unhappy!) Anyway, I
can see why this would drive someone to suicide - especially if they really
believed that it was their fault that they weren't experiencing anything. I
guess the only reason that I never felt like killing myself was that deep in my
heart, I didn't believe that Maharaji was god (and boy did I feel guilty about
that! But not enough to kill myself, thank god.)
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 21:31:07 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Katie,
What if you're wrong? What if Maharaji really is God after all? I know, cuase
I've done it before, that I could grovel and pranam before him (and his
daughter, too, if it so pleases him). But what about you? Is there a place in
this world for a chronic salt ant? Not trying to freak you out or anything.
Happy Valentine's day!
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 21:39:40 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
[email protected]
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A Valentine to
My Lord
Message:
Katie, What if you're wrong? What if
Maharaji really is God after all? I know, cuase I've done it before, that I
could grovel and pranam before him (and his daughter, too, if it so pleases
him). But what about you? Is there a place in this world for a chronic salt ant?
Not trying to freak you out or anything. Happy Valentine's day!
Happy Valentine's Day, Jim! I know I've said this before, but I was
so miserable when I decided to leave Maharaji that I decided I'd rather go to
hell (like he said we would if we didn't practice knowledge) than follow him any
more. That's why I like that song 'Friend of the Devil', by that band...you
know. By the way, I'm not saying I was smarter than anyone else here. I did
pranam to Maharaji (and his picture) a whole bunch of times. I really WANTED to
believe he was god, I just couldn't. P.S. What is a chronic salt ant?
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 22:19:54 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Sugar ant?
Salt ant? No? Nothing? Really?
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 23:50:53 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
[email protected]
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A
Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Katie: I feel obliged to say
something positive here, for the sake of balance. My experience in the 1960s was
MUCH more disappointing and destructive than anything I went through with MJ. In
fact, I had a sort of 'relapse' to that psychotic state shortly after receiving
Knowledge, while living in Spokane. During the time I was hospitalized I
received numerous visits from local premies, and those visit were very important
in helping me battle those psychoses that had predated Knowledge. Furthermore,
meditation seemed to 'snap be out of' the whole funk, in pretty short order. By
that time I was pretty familiar with psychoses, and Knowledge it wasn't.
Meditation was like a powerful medicine that gave me a reason to recover, and a
handle out of the mental mess. I've meant to write that little testimony for
some time. I do not thing the relapse was 'caused' by Knowledge except in the
most innocuous sense, and I did not experience the kind of intense mental
confusion I had been accustomed to from about 1969 to 1971 or 72. Meditation
actually seemed to take the sting out of all that. I have to say that another
friend of mine in the LA community succumbed to schizophrenia after receiving
Knowledge. If anyone remembers him it was Valentine Vargas. Don't know what
became of Val. Knowledge and meditation seemed to deepen his confusion, rather
than help it. -Scott
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 00:32:47 (EST)
Poster: elena
Email: **
To:
Selena
Subject: Selena (Re: A Valentine to My Lord)
Message:
In the vidoe I saw a couple weeks ago, youknow who saaid
some guy kept coming to see him and all he would talk about was 'I could have
been this I could have been that' 'I could have done this I could have done
that.' then he said he finally said 'dont let that guy in anymore.' Now you may
not know how he speaks so let me help. There is no way maharji is going to let
ANYONE come and complain about that stuff to him over and over. He was talking
about himself. As part of his midlife crisis, (worsened by this website), He was
bothered by the 'if only's'. Hindsight ect. Well he told the impulse to do
analysis to go away and that dooms him to the course he choose instead of
getting free of his own delusions. Or rather, he has put aside any hope anyone
might have of him waking up and chosen to give in totally to the hindu
master/god business. He had his mothers death and other lifelong misbehaviors to
prod him to wake up out of the alarm bells of regret. But he told his consience
'don't come in anymore' and so he has decided to get an 'F' on his midlife
crisis grade. More delusion, misunderstanding, and public relations. Certainly
we can understand your lost 10 years with your children. MANY people gave up
thier children and spouses because of his words. I know many. He really doesn't
deserve to wake up. And obviously by his own words we can see he has decided to
clutch the treasure chest in the quicksand. I have no idea what to say to your
regret except that I bet you were better to them then you remember. I would
probabaly sort of adopt (part time) some child in your enviroment. There are
certainly many that are available. Just a regular involvement with a young one
that is missing one or both parents can really heal a lot. I have done that with
two girls and one boy. They don't live with me, I already have 4 here of my own.
But those three sure appreciate the involvement. I think this is a viable
theraputic route you can consider.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 01:48:38 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
[email protected]
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: A Valentine
to My Lord
Message:
Dear Scott - Sorry to be so 'N'! I didn't mean
to imply that I didn't get anything out of the experience with Maharaji's
organization. I think I wrote about this in the last forum. I was in a really
bad place when I started going to satsang and got knowledge - drugs, weird
people, bizzare spiritual stuff, hurtful relationships, etc. Plus I was only 16,
so a lot of this stuff was hard for me to handle because I was so young. I
really liked the structure of the premie world, and even though I didn't
experience that much through meditation, being a premie was helpful to me for a
couple of years - it was sort of a sheltered community where I could grow up
without all these other weird threats. Then, as I did grow up, I started to feel
confined, and then guilty, and then trapped, as I related above. But I can
definitely relate to the experience that you describe above. (By the way, I give
a lot of credit to the local premies that I knew in the 70's for being so kind
and accepting of me. I never knew or came in contact with Maharaji so I can't
give much credit to him. It sounds like you got a lot of help from premies as
well.) I didn't mean to imply that just receiving or practicing knowledge would
cause someone to commit suicide - what I meant was that the pressure and guilt
to practice knowledge (satsang, service, meditation, AND devotion) 'perfectly'
was really hard on some people. I understand that there is not as much pressure
on premies now - I hope not, anyway. Re: my experience with the knowledge
meditation. I never got that much out of it, and I did try to practice
diligently for years. I know people who have really experienced great things by
practicing it. At this point, I 've come to the conclusion that there is not one
correct way to meditate, or one spiritual practice that is the 'right way' for
all people. Not sure what other people think about this. Katie
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 13:51:42 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Scott
T.
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Scott,
Any of a number of cults could have bandaged you up and 'protected' you from
life. Prison has also saved a lot of people from self-destruction. The
'negativity' is irrefutable if you maintain 'truth' in the equation and don't
over-emphasize 'safety.'
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 14:40:11 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To:
Jim
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Scott, Any of a number of cults could have
bandaged you up and 'protected' you from life. Prison has also saved a lot of
people from self-destruction. The 'negativity' is irrefutable if you maintain
'truth' in the equation and don't over-emphasize 'safety.' Jim: Fair
enough. But the fact is that they didn't. Anyway, my kudos went to the premie
community, and to Knowledge, not to him. My feeling about this is that GMJ does
not pass muster on any particular issue, but he is sometimes fairly close. For
instance, as far as I know he has never taken sexual advantage of the myriad of
young premie women around him, and has (apparently) remained faithful to a woman
considerably older than he. This distinguishes him from people like Saih Baba,
for instance. It always impressed me that he remained faithful to Marolyn.
Perhaps it is the influence of the Catholic nuns in his youth? One thing that
the Theosophists did for Krishnamurti was to educate him. After his repudiation
of the 'world teacher' role he was able to support himself through books and
lectures. GMJ is all but illiterate. What skills does he possess? It seems
possible that every time he came to the point of confronting himself, he also
had to confront the hard fact that he had only a dismal alternative. I think Bob
Mishler talks about this. My contention is that GMJ is basically conservative.
The fact that he is not obviously over the line on any particular issue induces
people who have slightly blurred vision to think he is good. If they sharpen
their focus a bit they will see that he is close to a score of zero on the 'good
charisma' test. -Scott
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 16:15:35 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Scott
T.
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Scott,
Haven't you read the steamy gossip about Maharaji's longtime mistress? My
understanding is that Maharaji has indeed dipped his pen in the company ink
(which must be hard to avoid when you're in charge of the whole known universe).
I think Mr. Ex can confirm this. I'm not sure what point you're making vis-a-vis
Krishnamurti. Hopefully not that Maharaji deserves some sympathy for
perpetuating his cult because he lacked an honest means of self-support. Hey,
the guy could have kept just a fraction of his loot and still have been set for
life. Besides, I've seen way too many premies struggle to piece together lives
and careers to have any sympathy at all for the efforts Maharaji never made
anyway. You must be right about Maharaji being conservative. Yet how different
he seemed 25 years ago, huh? Then he seemed like a blast of fresh air and
no-bullshit flexibility.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 17:03:47 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To:
Jim
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Scott, Haven't you read the steamy gossip about
Maharaji's longtime mistress? My understanding is that Maharaji has indeed
dipped his pen in the company ink (which must be hard to avoid when you're in
charge of the whole known universe). I think Mr. Ex can confirm this. I'm not
sure what point you're making vis-a-vis Krishnamurti. Hopefully not that
Maharaji deserves some sympathy for perpetuating his cult because he lacked an
honest means of self-support. Hey, the guy could have kept just a fraction of
his loot and still have been set for life. Besides, I've seen way too many
premies struggle to piece together lives and careers to have any sympathy at all
for the efforts Maharaji never made anyway. You must be right about Maharaji
being conservative. Yet how different he seemed 25 years ago, huh? Then he
seemed like a blast of fresh air and no-bullshit flexibility. Jim: I
was not aware of the rumors. I suppose that you're right about the fact that he
could have retired long ago. I just recalled that Cat Stevens retired to the
life of an obscure Muslim clergyman. Fame and fortune are not irresistable for
everyone, and Cat was a much better singer that MJ is a guru. -Scott
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 21:05:14 (EST)
Poster: david
Email:
To:
Scott T.
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
it did it was very meaningful and it was what it
was.....that aint so bad it was an experience now its over let it go and live
your life
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 21:05:29 (EST)
Poster: david
Email:
To:
Scott T.
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
I received Knowledge in San Francisco on Feb.
14, 1974. There was a time when I thought that had some significance. -Scott
it did it was very meaningful and it was what it was.....that aint
so bad it was an experience now its over let it go and live your life
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998
at 02:43:34 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Scott
T.
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Scott, Haven't you read the steamy gossip about
Maharaji's longtime mistress? My understanding is that Maharaji has indeed
dipped his pen in the company ink (which must be hard to avoid when you're in
charge of the whole known universe). I think Mr. Ex can confirm this. I'm not
sure what point you're making vis-a-vis Krishnamurti. Hopefully not that
Maharaji deserves some sympathy for perpetuating his cult because he lacked an
honest means of self-support. Hey, the guy could have kept just a fraction of
his loot and still have been set for life. Besides, I've seen way too many
premies struggle to piece together lives and careers to have any sympathy at all
for the efforts Maharaji never made anyway. You must be right about Maharaji
being conservative. Yet how different he seemed 25 years ago, huh? Then he
seemed like a blast of fresh air and no-bullshit flexibility. Jim: I was not
aware of the rumors. I suppose that you're right about the fact that he could
have retired long ago. I just recalled that Cat Stevens retired to the life of
an obscure Muslim clergyman. Fame and fortune are not irresistable for everyone,
and Cat was a much better singer that MJ is a guru. -Scott Fame and
fortune are probably 'irresistable' to Maharaji, mostly because I think they
have become so much a part of how he defines himself. They have become a
psychological need. And 'fortune' he has already got. 'Fame,' except among an
ever-dwindling group of 'devotees,' was probably limited to that unique cultural
time in the early 70s, when the media and the society was open to the
'counter-culture' that was supposedly floating in from India and M arrived at
the same time. I think he has given up on 'fame' as part of the higher goal of
retaining 'fortune.' BTW -- Besides the mistress (if she really exists) M, in
the 80s, according to people high up on M's staff, had affairs with a number of
different women, all premies. Consensual? Somehow the power relationship seems a
bit skewed. But regardless, to say that M deserves some credit because he wasn't
a sexual predator is damning by faint praise. We could also say he wasn't a
child molestor, toxic polluter, torturer of small animals, or that he sold
weapons of mass destruction to Iraq. Does he deserve credit for those things
too?
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998
at 15:16:04 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To:
JW
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
But
regardless, to say that M deserves some credit because he wasn't a sexual
predator is damning by faint praise. We could also say he wasn't a child
molestor, toxic polluter, torturer of small animals, or that he sold weapons of
mass destruction to Iraq. Does he deserve credit for those things too? JW:
It's not exactly that I'm into giving him credit. Those 'virtues' (if they are
true) simply make him less negative than, say, Sai Baba (who IS a child molester
according to reports) or Paul Twitchell (who was a sexual predator).. The fact
that he is less negative is still not a credit. I'm certianly not interested in
following someone who is clearly not even as good a person as I am... -Scott
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998
at 15:28:16 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Scott
T.
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Scott,
you really open the door on that one. Care to repost?
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998
at 16:21:34 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Scott
T.
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
But regardless, to say that M deserves some
credit because he wasn't a sexual predator is damning by faint praise. We could
also say he wasn't a child molestor, toxic polluter, torturer of small animals,
or that he sold weapons of mass destruction to Iraq. Does he deserve credit for
those things too? JW: It's not exactly that I'm into giving him credit. Those
'virtues' (if they are true) simply make him less negative than, say, Sai Baba
(who IS a child molester according to reports) or Paul Twitchell (who was a
sexual predator).. The fact that he is less negative is still not a credit. I'm
certianly not interested in following someone who is clearly not even as good a
person as I am... -Scott Scott, from the little I have heard about
you, you are so much a better person than M probably could ever be. You see, M,
won't even engage in open dialogue, won't allow the possibility that he has
committed an error, and blames others for his own, serious, deficiencies. Maybe
he hasn't been quite as destructive as some other 'spiritual' leaders. But give
him time. He's only 40. So much time, and so many gullible, sincere people to
take advantage of.
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998
at 16:39:35 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
[email protected]
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A Valentine
to My Lord
Message:
Scott, you really open the door on
that one. Care to repost? Jim: How do you mean 'open the door?' I do
not think M is consummately evil. As a critic one is better off with an honest
and unbiased account than with an harangue. If I attempted to build a case that
M was as bad as, say, Saih Baba or (more extreme) Saddam Hussein I might be in
danger of de-legitimating myself as a critic. (I think this is what the
feminists have done with some of their biased studies.) If you've got a case
you're better off not trying to embellish it. How is the door open? I have a guy
who wants me to devote my life to him and an unbiased estimation says that he is
no good. It's not a close call. Besides, if my honest assessment did>
leave the door open, then the door is open. I don't have an axe to grind here.
Just trying to get at the truth. -Scott PS - Sometimes I worry that skepticism
or cynicism becomes an end it itself. I don't see any affinity between GMJ and
the great spiritual or political leaders. That's my point.
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998
at 16:46:25 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Scott
T.
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Scott,
I was just trying to be funny. I was talking about opening the door re
you (i.e. by talking about your own character). Just a lame joke. Nothing
to even talk about.
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998
at 18:18:51 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To:
Jim
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Scott, I was just trying to be funny. I was
talking about opening the door re you (i.e. by talking about your own
character). Just a lame joke. Nothing to even talk about. Jim: Now
that you mention it, I'd make a fairly good guru. I don't eat bugs (on purpose)
and I dan't mind contributing 10% of my income to myself. -Scott
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998
at 04:18:39 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To:
Everyone
Subject: Maharaji's long expected book!
Message:
I Was Wrong: The Untold Story of the Shocking Journey
from EVI to Prison and Beyond By Prem Rawat Now with honesty and frankness, the
42-year-old man sentenced to 45 years in prison on charges related to his EVI
ministry shares the intimate details of his incarceration, his divorce, and the
mistakes he made along the way. The book also contains candid and hard-hitting
insights on his new perspective on the dangers of prosperity theology and the
seductive nature of power. More than just another celebrity biography, this is
an important book for anyone struggling with lust, money, power, greed, divorce
and brokenness. Includes a 16-page photo insert. 224 pp. 'As the true impact of
Kabirs' words regarding money impacted my heart and mind, I became physically
nauseated. I was wrong. I was wrong! Wrong in my lifestyle, certainly, but even
more fundamentally, wrong in my understanding of the Gita's true message. Not
only was I wrong, but I was teaching the opposite of what Krisha had said.' An
airconditioned doghouse. Marolyn crying on camera. David Smith. Padarthanand.
Charnanand. Belkis Shah. The media circus gleefully trumpeted every detail of
Prempal’s dizzying descent from the pinnacle of the multimillion-dollar Malibu
residence and Elan Vital’s Knowledge Centers to ignominy, impoverishment--and in
Prempal's case--imprisonment. Yet the loss of his empire, his money, his home,
and his reputation in the two years leading up to his imprisonment in 2000 was
only the beginning. In prison, he was to lose even more--his freedom, his
sanity, his dignity, his conficence in his faith, and eventually even his wife.
Inmate 07407-058, one-time confidant to presidents, had hit bottom. In the
humiliation, loneliness, and abject despair of prison, Rawat gradually began to
realize that he had to dig deep and face things about himself that as a free man
he had been too busy to face. What were those issues? How did he face them? How
was he changed? Now for the very first time, Prempal Rawat tells his own
story--the glory days as The Lord of the Universe, the hostile takeover, the
emotional breakdown. How he got to prison, his experiences behind bars, and what
he learned. Prem Rawat was wrong about many things. Exactly what they were and
how he came to confess them will surprise you and inspire you. This is his story
http://www.worship.com/books/iwaswrong.htm for more details (In case you haven’t
understood this small fiction, change Prem Rawat’s name to Jim Baker, and you’ll
understand how our ex-beloved could finally realize something and share some
truth about himself)
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 03:35:05 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: [email protected]
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Maharaji's long expected book!
Message:
I don't think this kind of sick garbage even deserves a
comment.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998
at 05:39:15 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug
Email:
To:
Mili
Subject: Re: Maharaji's long expected book!
Message:
I don't think this kind of sick garbage even
deserves a comment. so why did you comment?
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