Friday August 12, 1998 Part 1 20 Messages ======================================== From: "Steve Lackow" To: Subject: Re: Stressful Visits Better Be Worth It Date sent: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:27:36 -0700 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Boy, you sure are pissed off just because the Mets went past the Cubs! Not too long ago, a desperate dad here in L.A. banged on internet resources until he found drugs in clinical studies, that his crack doctors never heard of, that allowed his son to walk again -- when the experts said he had no chance, ever. Too bad nobody heard about it, because Phil Hartman's wife went berserk that day. I simply maintain that the elements of a cure are already there, and it is up to people like us to help find them, surface them, get vets to work with us and try things from clinical studies, educate them as well as listen to them. Doctors (and nurses) who treat patients are too busy. We lay people, especially if we work in the health field or are practitioners and have net access, should help. Do you assume that everything has been tried and rejected? Much is being overlooked in the short term in the mad rush to cure HIV -- a gold rush. There's no money to fund anything that diverges from the human model. Virtually every strand of research that might help our cats, but is irrelevant to people, is being ignored. And I am not even willing to say that this is not how it should be. Jim, we've been around the block on this before and not just on FeLV. Don't lose your dreams, vision, hope and courage, and never let anyone or anything take those things from you. No university, no government, no bank, no anything. What the hell do you think you're supposed to do with that computer we got you anyway? Just manage the list? How about the rest of the time? Why do you think I show you all of these medical search engines and databases? FIND A FREAKIN' CURE. I NEED HELP OVER HERE Want to hear what I have to say before I'm ready? Fine. I am thinking that alternating the antiretroviral pepstatin A and LDOIA (oral recombinant human interferon) just might get us a whole lot of quality time with our cats, and there is research to back me up. But it would be a lot better if we could find a third and a fourth retroviral agent. It's mathematics, we need more combinations so we can keep switching them before they become toxic or ineffective. Also, the therapy will work for more cats. As for Vitamin C, overdoses are probably one of the most common mistakes well-intentioned people make with their cats. It causes esophagus problems and stomachitis in cats in large doses. My vet says it is a fairly common problem he sees in his practice. Ascorbic ACID. Even in ascorrbate. I want New Methods. Not same old shit dead cat. Don't you? A lot of vets here in L.A. don't want to try interferon or immunoregulin anymore, or keep giving transfusions, because IT DOESN'T FREAKIN' WORK FOR VERY LONG. Not because they have not tried, or because they're ignorant, or won't be bothered. -- Your friend, Steve ---------------------------------------- From: "James G. Wilson" To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Date sent: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:12:46 +0000 Subject: Re: Stressful Visits Better Be Worth It Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net > Boy, you sure are pissed off just because the Mets went past the Cubs! I hope your "research" is less flawed than the above statement. But, this list is not about Baseball. As to the rest of your disingenuous, vulgar, and insulting diatribe, you're sporting nothing more than a will to argue, and I have no intention of addressing it further beyond this note. Make all the accusations you want, but I work very hard on these FeLV projects, and, considering how much of my work appears at your web site, I guess you'd agree. Had it not been for the lemon of a computer you suggested we buy, I'd still have all of my research to reference my continuing work. Furthermore, unlike you, I have no interest in announcing "cures" and such before they're even off of the drawing table- what you're doing is just dammed irresponsible. If you want to play that kind of game, make your announcements on your web site and provide links to the research done to show that these methods work on cats- THEN announce it to the list. Vigilance is one thing, but your militant attitude is inappropriate here. Either act responsibly, or take it somewhere else. That's the last I'm going to say about it unless you persist in disrupting the list- and, I certainly hope you don't. In loving memory of Vyvyan: March 20, 1988 - August 15, 1997 James G. Wilson- phaedrus@npwt.net http://www.angelfire.com/il/felv/ http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/8025/ http://thor.prohosting.com/felvinfo/ http://www.fortunecity.com//skyscraper/sterling/20/niu.html ---------------------------------------- From: CatzNStuff@aol.com Date sent: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 02:03:48 EDT To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Stressful Visits Better Be Worth It Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hi All, Most of my cats would go into "panic mode" at the mere sight of the carrier. Hoover always seemed like he might have a heart attack. He panted, drooled, and yowled all the way to the vet and back. I know to some of you this sounds like a broken record, but *if* you give your cat 1 drop of Rescue Remedy 20-30 minutes before you get out the carrier you and your cat will have a much more pleasant ride. Hoover now rides in the front seat with a small doggie harness made especially to attach to the seat belt. And, believe me, he acts like he's having fun looking out the window, watching the world fly by! Our alliopathic vet now keeps RR in the exam room for panicky animals. Trips are kept to a minimum, but do-able. That's my 10 cents' worth. Linda P ---------------------------------------- From: CatzNStuff@aol.com Date sent: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 03:42:06 EDT To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Research Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net To Steve and his alter-ego DeNiro voice, I strongly suggest you find the packet I mailed to you, pull out the viral-load test results and read them. It's obvious you haven't. Or, meet me in Woodland Hills next Friday night (the 21st) to learn about the science behind Mannatech. I'll buy your ticket. Linda P ---------------------------------------- From: Newtanator@aol.com Date sent: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:37:41 EDT To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Research Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Open letter, Research is just that, research. It is done, usually for years, decades. A group may start out with 40 new drugs or combination of drugs and end up with one at the end that MIGHT be worthwhile and have a remote possibility of reaching the market. Most fall by the wayside after some not before noticed complication comes to the fore, like liver failure or psychotic behavior. My printer chose last night to run out of ink, but I think something was mentioned about some dad finding a cure so that his son could walk again on the net and somehow got his Drs. to use it (what was IT, anyway) to save the boy. Sorry, it didn't make the news because what probably happened was, yes, the experts were wrong (it happens a lot) about the injury and the pressure on the childs spinal cord probably receeded and he was then able to walk, which is what usually happens. Do you really think a cure for spinal cord injuries would remain hidden just because someone was murdered? Cris Reeves would be on every channel around the world with the discoverers of this wonderful thing. As well he should be. Finding a paper, posted on the web, and I don't care who wrote it or where they are from, does nothing for us. My God, there are people who's children are dying from diseases, adults who still suffer the ravages of Parkinsons or MS and do you think they would not love quick answers to cure them? Unless you carry a fully equipped and staffed lab in your back room, that you can supervise, you have only someone else's ideas to work with. Ideas so complicated you can't possibly imagine. Hurried research is careless research. I refuse to jump on any bandwagon based on *A* paper, written somewhere on the net, never to be heard of again. That's what happens to them, because they find it doesn't work. No one would love a cure more than I. I have lost 5 to this disease but I don't need a reality check on how the cure is out there. All we have to do is pressure labs to risk their licences, grants, their very livelihoods to dole out untested medications to our vets, who won't give them because they are total unknowns and cost thousands of dollars and run a very high risk of killing them outright. Or how about they cure the disease but two weeks later they die of liver failure? Gee, what a success story that is. I want the new folks esp. to know that research is being done, every day, but it is just not available to us yet and for good reason. We need to be aware of what is going on and check on it's progress, yes. Meanwhile, we must work with what we have. Is it perfect? No. Are we impatient? Yes. But at this point there is little else we can do. There are things out there that might be available in the near future such as Feline Interferon. Things will come. Right now all we can do, is the best we can do. barb ---------------------------------------- Date sent: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:52:07 +0100 From: "Sonja Lnders" To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Weekly blood work Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Cary, What about the constant loss of blood to a cat already aneamic or threatened to be?My vet refused on these grounds (among others), and I also read on one of the cat health websites, that it takes a long time for a sick cat to make up for the loss again?? > .Sonja ---------------------------------------- From: Newtanator@aol.com Date sent: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:40:32 EDT To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Weekly blood work Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Sonja, A very small amount of blood is used to test. Even in a sick cat, that little bit is not missed and the knowledge gained from it helps you make decisions on what to do next. barb ---------------------------------------- Date sent: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:32:12 +0100 From: "Sonja Lnders" To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Weekly blood work Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Barb, Thanks, I suppose he just doesn't want to. One of the other reasons he gave, were ethical!!!! Here in this country, where most people don't bother to spend any money on their cats at all, (dogs are a little better off!), not even on the ordinary panleuc/cold vaccination, he thinks it is wrong to spend so much money trying to save any O N E cat, saying, so many healthy cats ( or even children!!) could be saved with that money! Has he got a point? I suppose it all adds up to the question whether we have the freedom to spend our money as we think fit!!?? (After all, if I had bought myself a nice, big car in place of my tiny runner, he would probably have congratulated me!) But if no one makes a start, as we on this list all do, to spend money on our cats, they will n e v e r bother to find a cure, for if you look around, its the profit that counts every time!!! What do you think? Sonja ---------------------------------------- From: "Moermond, Barbara" To: "'felvtalk@MailingList.net'" Subject: RE: Ninja - long Date sent: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:33:39 -0500 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Pam, I'm not giving her any vitamins (shame on me, I know). She eats ProPlan dry food and doesn't eat wet cat food. I give her either tuna or chicken as post-pilling treats (about 1 teaspoon 2x day). I just started sprinkling Pet-Aloe Crumbles on her dry food. I get her kitty grass at the Farmer's Market (she likes her salad). She's on prednisone and phenobarbital as well as interferon. I bought some DMG, but on reading the label, it has too many other things in it (minerals etc) so I'll just take that myself. I had tried to give her some of that when I first got it, but it was all foamy and didn't go down well and I think it tasted funny because she gave me the strangest look. Linda is sending me some Ambrotose and a few tabs of Mannacleanse. The weird thing about poor Ninja's constipation is that nothing in her diet or medication changed. But so far this week, her plumbing is just fine. Hopefully, she won't have any more problems of that nature. Here's hoping!! Barb+Ninja ---------------------------------------- From: katseven@pcsia.com Date sent: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:36:30 -0600 Subject: Re: Maxwell and his eyes To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Melanie, Here's more info on corneal ulcers. This comes from Anitra Frazier's _The New Natural Cat_, pp. 318-19: Recommendations ...-Give a capsule that contaisn 10,000units vitamina A and 400 units vitamin D twice a week until healed; then reduce dosage to once a week. Puncture caopsule and empty contents into fodd. -Increase vitamin E to 100 units a day until healed -Place one drop cod liver oil into eye or inside lower lid four times a day. -Wash eyes three or four times a day with an herbal eye wash solution. (According to Frazier, you can buy unpreserved unbuffered saline solution for contact lens wearers. (Be sure the saline solution reads "unpreserved and "unbuffered" on the label.) Or you can make your own saline solution, p. 213: I. Normal Saline Solution Use this to shrink tissue and open tear ducts: 1/2 cup boiling water 1/8 teaspoon salt (sodium chloride or sea salt) -Dissolve salt in water; *cool* and store in covered container in refrigerator. Keeps for a week or so. before using, heat to warm bath temperature by standing the container of solution in a bowl or pan of hot water. III. Herbal Solutions To shrink swollen tissue and disinfect: -Add 1 drop golden seal extract to 1 tablespoon Normal Saline solution. Hope this helps little Max. Take care, Susan katseven@pcsia.com ---------------------------------------- From: Newtanator@aol.com Date sent: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:43:46 EDT To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Stressful Visits Better Be Worth It Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Steve, I was not aware of your science background. It is my understanding you are a computer programer. What science training do you have? Your background? "We in the science fields..." Just curious. barb ---------------------------------------- From: CatzNStuff@aol.com Date sent: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:49:45 EDT To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Stressful Visits Better Be Worth It Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Barb, Would the reseacrch from the Chief of Immunology at UC Irvine carry any weight with you? Linda P ---------------------------------------- Date sent: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:14:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Kat To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Maxwell and his eyes Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Melanie, You might also try putting a drop of colloidal silver on the ulcer. Kat (New Jersey) ---------------------------------------- Date sent: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:48:46 -0700 From: Cary Zeitlin Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Weekly blood work Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Good question, and I don't have a definitive answer. I think if the kitty's blood is clotting normally, the amount of blood lost is very small. Our vets have never had any qualms about this, even when Molly's PCV was 10 and dropping, and I trust them. That's not much of an answer, I know. Cary ---------------------------------------- From: "Steve Lackow" To: Subject: Re: Weekly blood work Date sent: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:56:34 -0700 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Along these lines, know what the real enemy is? Fleas. Every FeLV cat should be on Frontline or Advantage, especially in multcat households. And keep the house very well vacuumed, and if you use insecticied use the kind with insect growth regulator. -- Steve ---------------------------------------- From: "zimmerman" To: "felvtalk" Subject: Re: Weekly blood work Date sent: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:06:40 -0400 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Thanks Steve, That's the kind of info we need. We know you can be a real asset. (I know what some of you are thinking) Help us with what's available (confusing enough) on the list & keep those of us interested in research updated on your site. Remember the main goal for the list....... to help cats now. Beth ---------------------------------------- Date sent: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:07:13 -0700 From: Cary Zeitlin Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Research Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Well said, Barb. I work around people doing basic reasearch in molecular biology, and from what little of it I'm able to understand, it is obviously a tremendously complicated field. Advances are incremental. And all science rests on the basic principle of reproducibility, which means that if Researcher A achieves a certain result, we don't necessarily believe it until Researcher B and maybe also C, D, and E get the same result. That part alone means that cures -- if they're discovered -- don't find their way from the lab to the rest of us very quickly. We all have strong hopes and desires to find cures for horrible ailments like cancer, AIDs, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, FeLV, etc. It is this desire that also makes us vulnerable to quackery, or, perhaps just well-intentioned people offering cures but who don't understand the scientific method. And I am here to say that our best hope for curing disease comes from that method. Be very, very wary about any "cure" or treatment that does not have clinical research to back it up. Cary ---------------------------------------- Date sent: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:11:20 -0700 From: Cary Zeitlin Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Interferon & Foaming Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net WORKPARK@aol.com wrote: > > Cary, > > Rissa-Tai loves the taste of the interferon. She never foams, and we have to > pull the syringe away from her to get her to not eat it! This is the only > med, other than the DMG that she is like this with. That's amazing, Pam. Molly just hated the interferon worse than anything else we've done to her, and I for one found the foaming to be very distressing. > How is your vet mixing the Interferon? If you could, post what they have > given you, and those of us who have had success can see if it's the same thing > we're getting. If not, we can give you our mixture recipe and maybe you could > try that? I'll check it out when I get home. We are not giving it now because it was depressing her and because her bone marrow seems to be working again. But I do want to know how to give this med, just in case we have to go back to it. Thanks. Cary ---------------------------------------- Date sent: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:16:05 -0500 From: Gabriela Mendez Perez Organization: Southwestern Bell Internet Services To: "felvtalk@MailingList.net" Subject: Re: research and etc. Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hi, all-- I normally don't think I have much to contribute, especially after considering the many struggles and battles you've all overcome and continue to face with your catfriends. I must, however, say that I find this thread about stressful visits very disturbing because it seems we are straying off-topic with alarming consistency. Also, I think it is very much inappropriate for any of us to be aiming derogatory comments at each other. If we have something that might be considered a personal criticism aimed at a specific individual or individuals, could we please email each other privately? The purpose of this list is to share information, not to trade insults or disparaging comments. It's very disheartening to see that people who should know the meaning of teamwork are instead addressing their own personal agendas in the way I've seen recently. Gabby and los gatos fregados (the darn cats!) ---------------------------------------- From: "Moermond, Barbara" To: "'felvtalk@MailingList.net'" Subject: RE: research and etc. Date sent: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:22:33 -0500 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net What she said. In spades. Barb+Ninja ---------------------------------------- END