Thursday August 13, 1998 Part 2 15 Messages ======================================== From: WORKPARK@aol.com Date sent: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:19:51 EDT To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Molly Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Cary, We also had had a severe drop in wbc's with Rissa-Tai, and once we cleared up her Hemobart, just like you have with Molly, they started improving as well - right back up into good normal ranges. However, to our knolwledge, she does still have FELV. I just always try to remember that everything in our bodies is interconnected one way or another - so maybe the rbc and wbc production do have something to do with one another? Pam ---------------------------------------- From: WORKPARK@aol.com Date sent: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:54:02 EDT To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Stressful Visits Better Be Worth It Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Steve, I totally agree with the point that if the treatments aren't helpful, that you have to make some choices as to whether to continue treatment. But, I look at Rissa-Tai's situation. I'm going to update you here on her progress. Before you left the list she wasn't doing so well. Without getting into everything we've done again here in this post (If anyone wants to know, email me privately at WORKPARK@AOL.com), her pcv at it's worst was 11%. We were also going to the vet's office 3, sometimes 4 times a week. That was about in April-May. We did a lot of stuff to her to help her, spent lots of money that we didn't have, and guess what? Her pcv is now in the high normal ranges - a whopping 46%. Her weight last time was 8 lbs 14 oz, up 3 pounds from her worst. We don't give her the meds at the same amounts anymore, although she does still get them, along with other supplements (again, please email me if you want more info). And, we only go to the vet once every three weeks now, and if she continues to do so well, will try only once a month. Only the owner and the pet can decide what is the best course of action. Our vets and us thought we'd lose her by May. Here it is mid-August and she is doing so much better than most of the animals they see at the vet office on a daily basis. What turned her around? Lots of love, faith in her will to stay with us, wonderful vets, and the medications and supplements. Never mind this list. It ranks up there in the top of all of this, and gave us the strength not to give up on her. What can I say? Chuck and I agree that each of us has to make the choice as to what we can individually do. Does Rissa-Tai like going to the vet? Not really, but after you see the improvement in this now slightly chubby very lovey creature, how could we not have done what we have done? When you look into her eyes now, and hear her purr, you can see that she is a much happier cat now than when she was listless and hid under a skirted chair. However, at that time she didn't tell us to let her go just yet, and we are so glad that we didn't. I just feel that we shouldn't give up hope until it really is time. I think that most of us do just that, and that we know when to stop. Pam ---------------------------------------- From: WORKPARK@aol.com Date sent: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:08:28 EDT To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Interferon & Foaming Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Cary, Rissa-Tai loves the taste of the interferon. She never foams, and we have to pull the syringe away from her to get her to not eat it! This is the only med, other than the DMG that she is like this with. How is your vet mixing the Interferon? If you could, post what they have given you, and those of us who have had success can see if it's the same thing we're getting. If not, we can give you our mixture recipe and maybe you could try that? Pam ---------------------------------------- From: WORKPARK@aol.com Date sent: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:09:51 EDT To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Ninja - long Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Barb, what kind of supplements/vitamins are you giving Ninja? High doses of certain vitamins can cause constipation. Pam ---------------------------------------- From: WORKPARK@aol.com Date sent: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:15:56 EDT To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Maxwell and his eyes Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Melanie, The only experience I have with corneal problems is with my own. When extended wear contac lenses first came out, I used them the 30 day period without taking them out, and had problems with corneal abrasions. I then went to once every 3 weeks, then once every two, every week, twice a week, then daily. I now only wear extended wear lenses but clean and take them out like daily wear. So, what has this to do with Mwxwell's situation? The one thing I learned from going to the eye doctor so many times is that at least, the human cornea is an incredible thing. It can be 90% destroyed and completely rebuild itself in 7 days. Hopefully cats' corneas can regenerate themselves in the same way. I wish you the best of luck. Keep us posted. Pam ---------------------------------------- Date sent: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:42:03 -0700 (PDT) From: diana@wetware.com (CatWoman ) To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Stressful Visits Better Be Worth It Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Steve - this is something that I've wrestled with many times over the last 30 years. Some things are worth it, some are not. I disagree with the way a person I actually like a lot kept her cat alive until *it* died - holding a towel under its rear to let it move around, etc. I admit to anthropomorphising a lot - but a lot is also based on some knowlege of the cat in question. I had no questions about bringing Ghost & Ishtar in and giving them the best life I could. I equally knew that I had no facilities for Wolfie - he was a true feral, and would have killed Ghost & Princess if I'd tried to bring him in - *IF* he had even survived neutering - which as a feral tomcat would have been a major requirement. If I'd been rich, with a large home and room to isolate him - I might have tried treating him, but even then I don't think it would have been fair to him. I grieve that his last night on earth was in a trap. Biscuit was in obvious pain when I had her euthanized. Ishtar was in obvious distress. Ghost just gently faded away, and died while I was at work. Sassy is arthritic, and we are stuffing still yet another type of medication down her. Each one we try perks her up for a while - but because she *does* perk up, and comes for food and pets - we keep medicating her. She doesn't care for the pilling, or doctor visits, but they are few enough that the rest of her life still has some quality. I probably would not do something that required leavng a cat in an isolated hospital cage for the rest of its life - but for a few days, yes - if s/he would then have some quality. All I can say is - it depends on the cat in question. If Motley gets sick - she's easy to pill, but would not be treatable if it required canned food. FUS, she's treatable; mouth cancer - she would not be. My idea is the best quality of life i can give them, within the restrictions that I have imposed on them in forcing them to live inside. Diana ---------------------------------------- Date sent: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:06:05 -0700 From: Cary Zeitlin Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Stressful Visits Better Be Worth It Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net A sick kitty with FeLV is going to be held down and have stuff shoved down his or her throat on a daily basis, maybe twice daily, so they certainly have to get used to that part. As for the rest: in my experience, most cats are only mildly stressed by vet trips. Maybe we've been lucky, but out of maybe 20 cats taken to the vet over the years, only 1 has shown symptoms of extreme stress, and tranq's helped make it bearable for him. You initally raised a (hypothetical?) question whether the stress on a FeLV+ kitty outweighs the benefit of aggressive treatment. If the treatment significantly extends the lifespan and improves the quality of life, as you strongly implied, it's an easy call (provided that one can handle the expense). You might argue that stress from the vet trips decreases quality of life, but for how many hours per week? One? Two? The other 166-167 hours, the cat benefits, and gets to live longer as well. >Who do you love anyway -- me, or you? Why the gratuitous insult? ---------------------------------------- From: "Steve Lackow" To: Subject: Re: Stressful Visits Better Be Worth It Date sent: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:38:04 -0700 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Diana, you are way cool. And indeed, it depends on the cat. -- Steve ---------------------------------------- From: "Steve Lackow" To: Subject: Re: Stressful Visits Better Be Worth It Date sent: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:40:21 -0700 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Sorry Cary, that wasn't meant as an insult, and most certainly not directed to you! Thanks for weighing in. -- Steve ---------------------------------------- From: "Steve Lackow" To: Subject: Re: Stressful Visits Better Be Worth It Date sent: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:43:30 -0700 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hi Larry. Missed you. Each cat an individual, to be sure. Remember the one who liked to ride in the truck, I believe it was Linda in Ohio who was on this list until her hubby got very sick? Still, I find these to be the exceptions. -- Steve ---------------------------------------- Date sent: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:49:09 -0700 From: Cary Zeitlin Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Stressful Visits Better Be Worth It Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net No offense taken. We're all in this thing together. Cary ---------------------------------------- Date sent: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:10:09 -0700 From: Cary Zeitlin Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Stressful Visits Better Be Worth It Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Newtanator@aol.com wrote: > > Ariel has had several trips to the vet. She pops out of the carrier, down on > the counter to greet the girls, purr and coo and walk on their keyboards, like > she does mine. Head butts the vet. LOL! Now *there's* a cool customer. Cary ---------------------------------------- From: katseven@pcsia.com Date sent: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:04:44 -0600 Subject: Re: Maxwell and his eyes To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net It's FE>my understanding, after what I've read about indolent ulcers and after FE>talking with my regular vet, that these types of ulcers are extremely FE>difficult to heal. Yes, that's what I read too, Melanie. Here are instructions for Aconite 30c. (30c is the correct potency--there are different potencies available over-the-counter, but Pitcairn recommends this strength.) You buy the pellets in the health food store. Be sure not to touch the pellets w/ your bare hands or fingers (not because they are toxic, but because it disturbs the composition of the remedy in some way and can render it inert). "Give only one treatment of 2 whole pellets or 3 crushed pellets placed on the tongue. Withhold food for 60 minutes before and after treatment, and withhold water for 10 minutes before and after. Wait a full month before further treatment; do not repeat the remedy. If there is no improvement, select a different remedy. If the animal shows improvement, no further treatment is necessary." _Encyclopedia of Natural Pet Care_pp203 & 204 (for ref to corneal ulcers). For Ledum and Silicea no specific dosage schedule is outlined explicitly, but many vets who practice homeopathy are available for phone consultation. I can find a website w/ a list probably, but I think Linda P. just posted one. Anyway, let me know if I can help at all. I have been reading some exciting things about homeopathy for pets, but haven't tried it for my guys yet. I'm focusing on herbs, vitamins, and nutrition right now, but I couldn't find any herbal etc. treatments for corneal ulcers. Best of luck with Maxwell. Stay strong, Susan katseven@pcsia.com ---------------------------------------- Date sent: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:37:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Kat To: FeLV Talk Subject: Welcome Ba-ack... Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hi Steve, Welcome back from the "Jersey Girl"!! Hope you stick around for a while. Kat (New Jersey) ---------------------------------------- From: "James G. Wilson" To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Date sent: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:54:56 +0000 Subject: Re: Stressful Visits Better Be Worth It Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Steve, Aside from setting up these straw man arguments regarding FeLV treatments, what is it you are hoping to accomplish with these theoretical "what if's?" Many months ago, I brought up the subject of AZT and other such drugs (and the need for "high maintenance") to you privately, and you dismissed all arguments based on being too stressful. Why do you now bring up those same approaches I was studying way back when as some new way of treating FeLV??? In any event, it does none of us any good to talk of treatments that are *not* yet in the grasp of veterinarians. Nor is it beneficial to berate treatments based on their correlation to vet visits- as you did regarding Immunoregulin before you left the first time. As will be said a billion times over before this disease is conquered, "not every treatment will work for every cat, and some cats will not respond to any treatments." In that vein, I will continue to pursue ALL methods of treatment that are in the grasp of vets, and we, as a group, will continue to explore the caveats surrounding these treatments (vit. C leading the way). With that said, I hope we can get back to the focus of our mission here- discussing viable treatments for FeLV and supporting one another throughout this viral siege. Anything else would be a distraction. Take care, and best wishes. In loving memory of Vyvyan: March 20, 1988 - August 15, 1997 James G. Wilson- phaedrus@npwt.net http://www.angelfire.com/il/felv/ http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/8025/ http://www.fortunecity.com//skyscraper/sterling/20/niu.html ---------------------------------------- END