Wednesday May 27, 1998 23 Messages ====================================== From: Paula Lazo To: "'Felv Talk List'" Subject: Felv Virus Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:20:32 -0400 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net As you all know my Lucky is now a bridge kitty, but at my momīs house we still have Garrita, Lucky's grandma. Lucky lived with me at the apartment and when I bought his food we'd shared half of the bag with Garrita, last night my mom called to tell me Garrita is almost out of food, I immediately remembered Luky left his half of the bag almost complete, but when he started to feel bad I would poured the pellets he had left (untouched as I think) back into the bag hoping he'd eat them later, sometimes he'd manage to eat one or two and I'd put the rest back into the bag. Now I'm not sure to give Garrita the rest of the bag, is it possible for the virus to stay alive?, it's not a big deal getting a new bag but I wonder how long can the virus survive out of the kitty? Thanks Paula -------------------------------------- Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:26:52 +0100 To: felvtalk@MailingList.net From: BILL BEAMISH Subject: Re: Felv Virus Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hi Paula, From the latest I've read about the Felv virus and from my vet and from my own personal experience, the Felv virus lives only a few MINUTES outside the cat's body. If it's a wet surface, the virus may live a few hours, but even that's stretching it. It's a very fragile virus and easily destroyed. Just think about it - if it was a hardy virus and easily spread between cats, LOTS more cats than already do would have it! Thank God it's fragile. I wouldn't worry at all about using Lucky's food for Garrita. Garrita was tested negative? How did Lucky and his Mom contract Felv? Were they outdoors? I'm just curious. Judy -------------------------------------- Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:29:16 -0400 To: felvtalk@MailingList.net From: Angela Holderby Subject: Re: Felv Virus Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Well, I faced a very similar situation. As well as Poncho and Lefty who are Felv+, I also have an outdoor kitty who is pretty wild. She will only let me and my daughter pet her and as far as I can tell she is quite healthy. She is about 12 years old and other than having her spayed when she was very young, she has never even been to the vet. She prefers to be left completely alone and we respect her wishes. Until my 2 inside cats were diagnosed as being positive, they all ate food out of the same bag. My son feeds the cats most of the time and I have noticed that he usually dumps the bowl into the bag and then re-fills the bowl. After the positive diagnosis, I purchased separate bags of food for the cats and showed him how to use a clean scoop and never mix the foods. (My son is only 5, but he understands how this disease is spread.) It is my understanding that the virus is very unstable and cannot live long outside the kitty--especially in a dry environment. HOWEVER, I asked myself if it was worth the risk to feed the remainder of the food to Snowball (outside kitty) and risk her health. To me, it wasn't worth even a remote chance of spreading the virus to her. I fed the rest of the food to the positive cats and then bought separate food for the inside and outside kitties. It probably wouldn't hurt--especially if it has been a week or more, but I personally didn't want to risk it. If Snowball caught the virus that way, I would most likely die of guilt--but then I am someone's Mom which makes me an expert at inflicting guilt upon myself in virtually any situation. Just my 2 cents. Angela (with Poncho , Lefty AND Snowball) -------------------------------------- From: Newtanator@aol.com Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 16:55:35 EDT To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Felv Virus Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Paula, It is true that that the FeLV virus is very fragile out of the body. It can live in moisture, like water bowls, wet food, a little longer. I guess my only thought would be if the cat drooled on the food, then the food was put back in tight container. I mean, more than likely the thing is long dead, but why take the chance? Food is fairly cheap, I think if it was me, I'd pitch it. barb -------------------------------------- From: "Steve Lackow" To: "FeLV Talk" Subject: Stuff Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 10:13:33 -0700 Reply-to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hi Jim. It appears that my reply to your last message went to purgatory somewhere. I'll forward the "interferon cocktail" research to you tonight if I can. It's a small study from 1995, but follows the scientific method, and it is quite enlightening, out of Colorado State. I'll bet you anything you like that the eventual cure for these viruses will be a cocktail rather than a single drug or chemical. Preventing people from unknowingly doing harm is at least as important as finding treatments. I can't sit idly by while people harm their cats with Vitamin C and other overdoses of vitamins, minerals and supplements; nor will I stand for people who recommend long injection series that are clinically unproven, and present them as if they were more than that to already stressed owners and cats. There is much research that shows that low dose interferon reduces circulating FeLV virus in cats. The problems are A) Antibodies form against it within a couple of months of weekly use (the premise of the CSU study) and B) Concentrations that are cytotoxic can build up over a long period of time. The "cocktail" approach and the on-again, off-again dosage are ways to address that. There's also other experimental substances I haven't even told you about yet, and other ways to use interferon. BTW, human and simian interferon are preferred for cats and other such therapy because of "host range" or efficacy in a wide variety of hosts; and LDOIA is used not because you can't inject a cat with interferon, but because it is the oral protocol absorbed through the lymph system and not the bloodstream that is effective. There are probably 4 or 5 lesser pieces of misinformation about LDOIA that I've seen on this list. Bottom-line, interferon should not be lumped together with the unproven and the anecdotal. Nor should acemannan, for that matter. I'm tired of people going the "Steve McQueen" route in their desperation for a cure. When it's you who is sick, grasping at straws is your prerogative. When caring for others, it is not -- especially when what's in the straw could contribute to their death. Don't mean to put you in or on a spot, Jim. But that's why they pay you the big $ :-) -- Steve -------------------------------------- Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:56:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "Nancy A. Schmall" To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Positive & Negative Together Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Judy, Where have you read that you shouldn't vaccinate FIV cats for FELV? Jake is FIV+ and I was planning on vaccinating him for FELV since I have a history of the disease in my cat population. Nancy -------------------------------------- Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 13:02:00 -0500 (CDT) From: "Nancy A. Schmall" To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: [Re: Candle Ceremony] Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net I would like to see a non-religious or agnostic ceremony for those of us who do not have specific religious beliefs but rather Universal ones. Nancy -------------------------------------- From: "Steve Lackow" To: "Angela Holderby" Copies to: "FeLV Talk" Subject: Re: Stuff Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:44:14 -0700 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Oh brother. This post was meant for Jim personally. I always discuss research findings with Jim first before I post them. My e-mail client is doing wacky things and I'm terribly sorry. I am concerned with people's feelings -- everyone I know here tries the best they know how and means no harm. Quite the contrary, there are a number of folks who spend long hours trying to help. As always, my concern rests with the cats, and I'm sorry for hurt feelings. As soon as I sort through this with Jim I will let everyone know. Again, I literally cannot apologize enough for this error. Perhaps someone will come up with a suitable thing I can do to make up for this. We're here to support one another, not tear each other down. -- Steve -------------------------------------- From: "Claude Horstmann" To: Subject: stuff Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 14:44:29 -0400 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hey Steve, What's it all mean, Mr. Natural ? .marilyn. -------------------------------------- From: Newtanator@aol.com Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 19:08:04 EDT To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: stuff Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Steve, I do have a few questions. You mention a small study, apparently done at Colorado State, in 1995 that follows scientific method. An "interferon cocktail" of some kind. I am most curious as to why, if it showed such promise, has no further testing been done since 1995? It is now mid-1998. Does research continue? Cocktails of all kinds, including those with interferon, have been tried in AIDS and unfortunately, none have proved successful, yet. Is the magic combination out there? I sure hope so. Research is a wonderful thing, and a necessary thing. But it has it limitations. Many a drug or combination of drugs, once outside the laboratory and find their way to the real world, fall short of desired effects. With our cats, some sick, some not sick, yet, we have to use the few options out there for us. There are no easy answers for us. We can't trust that some new wonderdrug is going to come along like the cavalry in an old western. Many of us have to do something NOW. We can't wait. The ideal time to start treating FeLV is BEFORE the cat gets sick. But nothing about this disease is ideal. I believe that the people who are this list are intelligent and thoughtful. They know their cats and their needs better than anyone in the world. I have been with this list since it began. I have read of no one's cat being killed or injured from receiving long term injections of any medication mentioned on our web site. Do any of the meds mentioned cure FeLV? No, and that is clearly stated. I trust peoples common sense to tell them what their cats needs are and they can take the appropriate action. They need to know what is out there, the pros and the cons, and they can make their own minds up. They don't need us telling them what to do. Vet trips stressful? Yes, for some, but not all. Many actually enjoy the car ride. For them, it is a pleasant outing. But it is not right for all, and the cats Mom or Dad will know that. Let them decide. barb -------------------------------------- From: "Equinox Corp." To: "'felvtalk@MailingList.net'" Subject: RE: Stuff Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:34:58 -0700 Reply-to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hi Steve, When I read the "stuff' I thought to myself that you certainly provide thought provoking/ raising hard questions kind of materials. I was dove-tailing "stuff' to your other post which you had flagged "long" the other day( it was about Imm...Reg...). Speaking for myself, I was not at all offended. then again, I'm a foreigner and have thicker skin that doesn't like sun screen. Oh Well.. One of my profs used to say that "If what you're doing isn't working, then go do something else". Clearly, with Felv+ cats we're all in the same predicament, and "what we're doing" isn't working because our cats keep on dying despite our cares and efforts. Reading your post along these lines, I think it's helpful to take a look at these issues you've brought up in your post. Take Care, Saliha -------------------------------------- Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 20:13:59 +0000 From: LawBet Subject: Re: stuff To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Organization: Home for Wayward Felines Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net These discussions about "scientific" studies kind of brings to my mind the "scientific" studies which concluded that eggs, salt and alcohol were very bad for humans. Then further "scientific" studies concluded that eggs, salt and alcohol, in some divine quantity, were actually conducive to a long life. It's been my experience that "scientific" studies rarely prove anything; if you hang around long enough, there will be "scientific" studies that contradict the previously published "scientific" studies. I know of only one "scientific" study that has continuosly proven it's conclusion and that is: war can kill and is definitely hazardous to your health. Fighting disease, it seems to me, requires the constant trying of something new; new medicines; new protocols; organic; inorganic; herbs; acupuncture; chicken soup; or even cheesecake. Whatever works! Nothing should be ruled out. Kitties are like people. Everyone is different. What works for one, won't work for another. The only sure thing we know about FeLV is that many of our kitties who contract it will die; a few will not. I am reminded of my own personal experience with "scientific" studies. None had been conducted using penicilin to combat meningitis in 1947. They used it on me anyway. Conclusion: it worked, I'm typing this message this very minute. To me, that is the only "scientific" study worth a hoot. If the prognosis for the kitty is death, then look for the FeLV "penicilin" that may be out there. Who knows, maybe one little FeLV kitty will be able to sit on Mama's lap while she types her message to this group, who's only physical problem will be old age. The Lurker -------------------------------------- Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:18:40 +0100 To: felvtalk@MailingList.net From: BILL BEAMISH Subject: Felv vaccine for FIV cats Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Nancy, I have just spent about 2 hours trying to find the site on FIV where the person (I believe it was a holistic vet) said vaccinating FIV positive cats against Felv was very dangerous. My sister's holistic vet also recommends NOT vaccinating FIV positive cats but then he recommends not vaccinating any cats! He doesn't believe in vaccines at all. Now I can't say that I agree with that. My vet told me recently that he hasn't seen a case of distemper in a cat in years and he said it's because the vaccine is so widely used now. I agree with him. In my case, bringing a FIV cat into my household without getting him the Felv vaccine would be ludicrous! I would be giving him a death sentence for sure. I must say I have never had any of my FIV cats have a bad reaction from the Felv vaccine so I don't exactly know what the problem is. And not one of the vaccinated FIV cats have ever gotten Felv so the vaccine has been a success. Any cat, FIV positive or not, who comes under my care will be vaccinated, whether exposed to Felv or not. This disease is too terrible to take any chances. If I were you, I'd most definitely vaccinate Jake! Judy -------------------------------------- From: "James G. Wilson" To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:31:20 +0000 Subject: Re: stuff Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hello all, While I agree that it can be healthy and productive to debate the merits of "scientific" studies vs. "anecdotal" studies vs. personal opinion vs. etc. etc., I don't want this to get out of hand because, to paraphrase Larry, War is a prescription for death. Steve's concerns about the scientific validity of these meds. have been echoed time and again to me by skeptical vets who continue to let cats die rather than giving them a chance for at least few more months of happiness- all in the name of science. I find this mentality completely unacceptable, and combatting that mentality is the very foundation upon which these projects have been based. To build on Larry's notions regarding scientific studies, it has become all too clear that anyone can create a study that conclusively shows just about anything- the tobacco litigation is evidence enough for me. Steve, I have no doubt that you can probably dig up studies that show Immunoregulin is detrimental to cats, but what would it really prove? Too much evidence exists in our archives to show that Immunoregulin DOES work for cats that haven't yet developed lymphosarcomas. You, yourself, have previously concluded from "scientific" studies that Interferon is useless in cats. The fact that you now hold the opposite opinion based on other "scientific" studies shows just how dangerous it can be to rely solely on them. Personally, I tend to rely on the good sense of the folks on this list. In a very short time, we have become quite a tight-knit group, and even the new-comers seem to feel the genuine affection we have for each other and become a part of it. We are intelligent, and we know how to take cues from our cats regarding which treatments may or may not be working for them. There is little more than that that we can do until researchers produce results that are consistently reproducable (the science) and also work consistently outside of the sterile lab (the experience). The reason I work so hard on maintaining the archives and the search engine is to produce data from this list that supports evidence of the experience kind- in my mind, it tends to be more reliable. The truly sad fact about this whole debate, though, is that there is mounting evidence that research with drugs will never "cure" these retroviruses :( The answers will most likely come from the areas of genetics and topology mapping of the viral envelopes. The best any meds will do is slow down the virus for awhile- the reason this group exists is to help folks and their kitties achieve that goal. Eventually, ALL meds will fail to stop the virus :( In sum, I will continue to advocate the use of established meds and treatments for FeLV despite the opinions of a number of vets and such who erroneously think they are a waste of time and money. As long as the meds aren't toxic to cats (excessive doses of Vit. C, AZT, and long-term prednisone therapy just to name a few), it is better to give them these meds to prolong their lives than to defer to "science" and let them die. This is my philosophy, and it has been since the conception of these projects. Some of you will disagree with it, and you are free to do so. In the end, I *know* that we have made a difference in the world- even if science decides to ignore it. PS: I'm glad that science didn't ignore you, Larry. In loving memory of Vyvyan: March 20, 1988 - August 15, 1997 James G. Wilson- phaedrus@npwt.net http://www.angelfire.com/il/felv/ http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/8025/ http://www.fortunecity.com//skyscraper/sterling/20/niu.html -------------------------------------- From: Newtanator@aol.com Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:07:43 EDT To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Felv vaccine for FIV cats Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Nancy, I see no reason to not vaccinate a FIV cat for FeLV. The worry is, that the vaccine will somehow give the cat FeLV. This just isn't possible IF the vaccine is from a KILLED virus. While there are a few live virus vaccines out there I don't think they are used much. Just ask first and make sure it is a killed virus vaccine. All a vaccine does is tweek the immune system to make and store in memory the antibodies for whatever is in the vaccine. Truth is, I would think an FIV cat might be more prone to falling prey to the FeLV virus because his immune system is already in jeapardy. A tough call for you. Good luck. barb -------------------------------------- From: "Steve Lackow" To: Subject: Re: stuff Date sent: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:58:28 -0700 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Excuse me. Literally, I fear. Those who purely choose the anecdotal over the clinical and dismiss EVERYTHING their vets say have been duly cautioned. Experience over science? So that's why we suck at science and math in America. Where I come from we need both of these things. In my consulting practice, we call it qualitative and quantitative. Qualitative explores. Quantitative tests and confirms. Hey Larry, you think Ike just took Monty's word on it, or do you think maybe they looked at reconnaissance before landing? Hey Jim, love 'ya, but don't you think your crummy vet experience is coloring your reactions temporarily? My bad vet experiences surely color mine. Heck, YOUR bad experience colors my own feelings, you know that. But I'm not ready to dismiss my vet(s) or the scientific method. I really admire Dr. Myers too, even though he's not 100% right all the time. The sideline looks pretty good to me right now, too. To correct two last pieces of yet more misinformation, immunococktails have been shown to reduce circulating AIDS virus so that it is not detectable. The problem is that they are so expensive, but I figure if something like this works for a cat it's a small fraction. Would I spend $2,000 a year to save my Chloe? Gee, I did, it seemed to work for a while but then it didn't. Wish there were something more scientific :-) Interferon has not been shown to clear the FeLV from cats because antibodies form and neutralize it. Thus, no clinical proof that it clears FeLV. But cocktails are another story entirely. So many of our very good friends did not live to see them. Here's some of the research, since so many asked for and about it. Here's to cheesecake, y'all. Visit us at http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/6167/ when you feel like it. -- Steve TITLE: Reversal of feline leukemia virus infection by adoptive transfer of activated T lymphocytes, interferon alpha, and zidovudine. AUTHOR: Zeidner NS; Mathiason-DuBard CK; Hoover EA AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Patholo gy, Colorado State University, Fort Collins 80523, USA. SOURCE: Semin Vet Med Surg (Small Anim) 1995 Nov;10(4):256-66 NLM CIT. ID: 96417810 ABSTRACT: Previous experimental studies utilizing human recombinant interferon-alpha-2b (IFNalpha-2b) alone or with zidovudine (AZT) to treat established feline leukemia virus (FeLV) infection resulted in a significant reduction in circulating virus throughout a 49-day treatment period. However, the anti-FeLV effect of IFNalpha was limited by the production of IFNalpha-neutralizing antibodies detected 7 weeks after the start of treatment. AZT without IFNalpha had no effect on circulating virus load. To examine the hypothesis that combination chemoimmunotherapy might induce the clearance of FeLV infection, persistently infected cats were infused with activated lymphocytes, IFNalpha, and AZT 12 weeks after infection with FeLV. Recipient cats received weekly infusions of 1.46 x 10(8) lymphocytes activated in vitro with lectin/IL-2 comprised of 98% T cells and an even distribution of CD4+ and CD8+ lymphocytes. FeLV infection was cleared in 4 of 9 cats receiving combined therapy after four adoptive cell transfers. These cats remained negative for circulating virus during a 63-day treatment period (17 adoptive cell transfers) despite the production of anti-IFNalpha-neutralizing antibodies. Sequential development of virus-neutralizing and virus envelope antibody titers were detected in those cats which cleared retroviremia, an antiviral response that was absent in untreated control animals or nonresponders. Three of four responder cata remained negative for FeLV 95 days after treatment was discontinued. Treatment of cats with lymphocytes without chemotherapy failed to influence the course of FeLV infection. These results suggest that combined treatment using IFNalpha and adoptive lymphocyte transfer served to reconstitute antiviral humoral immunity, counteract immunosuppression, and induce the reversal of retroviremia. -------------------------------------- Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:12:52 -0400 To: felvtalk@MailingList.net From: Angela Holderby Subject: Re: stuff Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net I have to throw my 2 cents in here. If you all get sick of me posting so much, then banish me from posting to the list, but please someone forward all this stuff to me because without it I would be a miserable little housewife sitting here with the memory of 2 kitties. I came into this group TOTALLY IGNORANT. I knew NOTHING. I did research the night before I was to euthanize my Lefty and stumbled (Thank you God!) across this group. I have read all of the information that has passed across this list in the past 6 weeks as well as reading some from the archives. I have to say that James is right when he says that we must take the cues from our cats as to what type of treatment. What is working for my cats may not work for everybodys. BUT, I do appreciate knowing what everybody else is doing. I think the only way to make an informed decision is to expose yourself to every possible treatment. What I am trying to say (and taking forever to say it--I'm sorry) is that whatever decision we choose (holistic, herbal, drug, acupuncture, etc.), WE have to live with that decision. *I* and *I* alone am responsible for the care of Poncho and Lefty. I take that responsiblity very seriously and understand that a bad decision on my part could cost them their lives. That is the responsibility that comes with loving a pet. On the other hand, if I am well informed and make a decision I believe is in their best interest, and it turns out they don't make it anyway, then I have to live with that, too. But, if I do everything I can to make the right decision, there shouldn't be any guilt or remorse if I make a wrong decision. I have to have that attitude or I wouldn't survive the pressure of this disease. It seems to be affecting me mentally as much as it affects the cats physically. I don't know if that made any sense, but I think I can go to sleep now so it must have been what I was meant to say. Love to all, Angela -------------------------------------- Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:30:51 +0000 From: LawBet Subject: Re: stuff To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Organization: Home for Wayward Felines Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Angela, And you said it very well, I might add. The Lurker -------------------------------------- Date sent: Thu, 28 May 1998 00:24:16 +0000 From: LawBet Subject: Re: stuff To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Organization: Home for Wayward Felines Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Ike was smart enough not to take Monty's word on ANYTHING. And if recon was the only thing considered, we would have landed at Calais. Further deponent sayeth not. The Lurker -------------------------------------- Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 15:36:17 -0700 From: Robert Frank Organization: A.R.F., Inc. To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Stuff Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Dear Steve: You work so hard on behalf of all of us-kitties and humans!! All I can say is thanks so much for your diligence. You're one heck of a guy in my book. Arlene and Howling Kitty -------------------------------------- To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 20:27:23 -0400 Subject: Bridge kitties From: naohalloran@juno.com (Naomi J O'Halloran) Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Dear Paula, Kelly, Gina & JoAnn, and Kathleen, I have been very busy lately, and I'm trying to catch up on my mail. I am so sorry to hear that your kitties have gone to the bridge. It's so hard to see so many go all at the same time. I know the pain you are all feeling, and I want you to know that my sympathies and prayers are with you. Lucky, Rubin, Paige, and Kettainya are all exploring the bridge together now, so they're not too lonely. And my Moira, along with all of our other precious kittes, are there to help them out and show them around. They are all feeling perfectly healthy now, and their only pain is that of missing you. They will wait for you there, and I think they look forward to the day we are coming to be with them as much as we do. My thoughts are with you all. Naomi -------------------------------------- From: "RobertCWhite" To: Subject: Kettainya Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:28:10 -0400 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hello . . . this is going to be brief, but I wanted to let you all know that I haven't had much energy to write everyone back yet, but I will. You all have been great support and I have really needed it. Thank you!--Kathleen at robertcwhite@ij.net -------------------------------------- Date sent: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:07:59 -0700 From: Robert Frank Organization: A.R.F., Inc. To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: stuff Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net A lot of wisdom in what you say. I've benefited personally from clinical cancer trials. That's why I'm here today and able to hold my Howling Kitty in my lap and talk to all you wonderful people! If not for trial and error part of medicine, I would have been dead at age 39 from advanced breast cancer. I thank God for giving me an iron will, a hard head, a wonderful family, and great kitties!!! Sometimes, sticking our necks out is the only way to find a cure. Keep up the good work. Arlene and Howling Kitty -------------------------------------- END