Friday March 27, 1998 Part 2 20 Messages ====================================== Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:05:42 +0000 From: LawBet Organization: Home for Wayward Felines To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: shots Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Judy, I totally disagree with your vet and my vet totally disagrees with your vet. ALL of our 13 kitties are inside cats. They never go outside and they ALL get their FeLV vacinations. Fortunately for us, we have never had a felv+ cat. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Larry (The Lurker) -------------------------------------- From: Newtanator Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:42:19 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: shots Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Judy, I was going to take the dog for a walk on this beautiful day before settling in to answer email, but I have to tell you I agree with my MUCH OLDER brother, Larry the lurker. I to had several inside only cats, but brought the disease in to my unvaccinated cats. Even testing a cat or kitten is no absolute assurance that the animal doesn't have the disease. Some in the group have had to have bone marrow studies done to find it. All the conventional tests came back negative! AND this is such an insidious disease, your cat can actually harbor the virus in a dormant state for years before it breaks lose. I think a perfect example of that is Jim's own Vyvyan. He was nine years old, seemed perfectly healthy, had some stress and bam, there is was. He was an inside, only, cat I think. Jim can add or correct me. In short, the waste that was laid in my home is something I don't anyone to have to go thru when a simple shot can help prevent it. To me the small risk of a sarcoma is well worth it and my cats will never be without it again. barb -------------------------------------- From: WORKPARK Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:22:03 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: shots Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net I agree with Larry - there's still a risk that a cat could have been born with FeLV and not show up positive until later in life. I'd rather take the risk and get the shot - this is a horrible disease and not worth taking a chance with. Pam -------------------------------------- From: WORKPARK Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:38:06 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.Net Subject: Rissa-Tai is not doing well Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hi, I took Rissa-Tai to the vet again today for her Immunoregulin and to get another cbc. I knew that although she had started eating again that she was still losing weight. Unfortunately, she is now down to 6.6 lbs. She's getting bony, and that's just in the last week. Although she doesn't seem to be scratching as much, her scabs aren't healing that well, but at least her favorite vet tech, Mike, said they look better than they did on Tuesday. They also said that she is obviously depressed, but that maybe since today is her last on the Tetracycline that that may help her (being off of it). Lastly, the vet said that her blood didn't look good at all, probably the worst it's looked so far, that the consistancy was like "cherry Kool-aid". We've all been trying so hard, and now this. So, we gave her an Epogen injection since she responded so well to the Neupogen. I'm waiting to hear what the cbc comes back like. Barb, I guess we'll find out about both of these meds through me. Please send a thought our way, I'm doing everything I can to try to get her to eat. I'm also trying not to get really upset about this around her, because I know she can sense what I'm feeling, but it's so hard. I've put more food and water by where she's sitting, and she at least seems to snack a little, even when I'm not right by her. I'll write again once I have those cbc results. Pam Does anyone have any suggestions? We're willing to try just about anything. -------------------------------------- From: "James G. Wilson" To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:39:45 +0000 Subject: Re: shots Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hey all, Let's review some numbers here as we make any decisions about whether or not to vaccinate. Larry, when your vet disagreed with Judy's vet's assessment, did s/he explain to you about the risks associated with Injection Site Sarcoma (ISS)? Has anyone else's vet explained these problems *before* administering the FeLV and/or rabies vaccines? Does anyone's vet use the new protocols for administering these vaccines? The risk for ISS is currently estimated to be that one (1) in every 1000 cats will develop some kind of ISS. The new protocol calls for these vaccines to be given in the hind legs (FeLV / left leg and rabies / right leg) rather than the neck (traditional method) since the sarcoma can be contained in the leg and kept from spreading. If these administrations and observations are done correctly, there is little risk for the cats. Now, although the vaccine is only (at most) 85% effective, it is an added defense against a disease that is inevitably fatal. No one can guarantee that their cats won't, at some point, escape to the outside world. I, personally, am tickled pink that neither of my kitties has even the vaguest interest in going outside- they get scared and run away when I open the door. It still doesn't guarantee that they won't someday get outside accidently. Also, we know that the "tests" for FeLV are sometimes horribly inaccurate leading to false negatives as well as false positives. Imagine bringing a cat that has falsely tested negative into your home with your unprotected kitties? The point I'm making through all of this rambling is: Do your homework before you make such crucial decisions about your cat's health. Be sure that you can trust the word of your vet and that s/he has kept up with modern practical techniques to ensure your cat is getting the best care possible. If your vet is following the new protocols established last year for administration of vaccines, then you are MUCH safer in getting your precious babies vaccinated than you are to leave them unprotected. I was contacted via email this morning by "Doctor, Dianne" (NBC affiliate in New York) about this very subject, and all of this wass basically what I told her, as well. I hope this info helps folks with their ability to make these tough decisions. Take care, and I wish you and yours all the best. In loving memory of Vyvyan: March 20, 1988 - August 15, 1997 James G. Wilson phaedrus@ctnet.net, phaedrus69@hotmail.com, felv@angelfire.com http://www.angelfire.com/il/felv/ http://www.litchfieldil.com/members/phaedrus/ http://www.fortunecity.com//skyscraper/sterling/20/niu.html -------------------------------------- Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:48:39 -0500 (EST) From: Kat To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: shots Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Very well said, Jim! I found a site on the net that explains the sarcomas in "Lay-person Language" and found it to be *very* helpful. Not only does it explain *what* happens, but *why* the Rabies and FeLV vaccines seem to be 'singled out' more often than the 4-in-1 'distemper' shots. It's at: http://www.allpets.com/allcats/archive/arc/vaccination.html Hope it helps. Kat (New Jersey) -------------------------------------- From: "James G. Wilson" To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:13:21 +0000 Subject: Kat & Pam's Rissa-Tai Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hi all, Thanks Kat for passing along the link to that incredibly informative page on Injection Site Sarcomas. I've looked it over, and I added a link to it from our FeLV project web page. I sure hope folks (and vets) make use of that info. Pam, I'm so sorry to hear that Rissa-Tai isn't doing so well. I'm racking my brain trying to think of things that might be contributing to these problems. You say that she's eating OK, but she's still losing weight? Is she having normal bowel movements and urinations? Do they have unusual odors? What Rissa-Tai is going through is the most frustrating part of trying to treat FeLV. Since FeLV compromises the immune system in so many possible ways (some of them quite subtle), the combinations of potential problems is just overwhelming. If you think she is depressed, you might try catnip if she likes it. I'd rather not get into debates about catnip being "kitty LSD" or some kind of cruel narcotic on the list- it won't serve our purposes. Also, I think someone (Linda P.?) gave us a web address for holistic herbs that evoke certain responses in cats. Could someone repost that address? I know you are doing your best for her, and we are keeping our fingers and paws crossed for you and Rissa-Tai. If you can think of any other "out of the ordinary" aspects of her behaviour, please pass them along- it may shed light in ways that aren't readily obvious. Take care, and please keep us updated on how y'all are doing. In loving memory of Vyvyan: March 20, 1988 - August 15, 1997 James G. Wilson phaedrus@ctnet.net, phaedrus69@hotmail.com, felv@angelfire.com http://www.angelfire.com/il/felv/ http://www.litchfieldil.com/members/phaedrus/ http://www.fortunecity.com//skyscraper/sterling/20/niu.html -------------------------------------- Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:43:04 +0000 To: felvtalk@MailingList.net From: BILL BEAMISH Subject: Re: shots Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net I know, Larry. I, of course, always get the Felv shots. I was just telling her what my vet is saying. I always tell everyone who adopts a cat from us to get Felv boosters. You never know. On the other hand, my sister won't get the Felv boosters for her cats and since she has been seeing a holistic vet, she is thinking about not getting boosters for distemper, either. Rabies shots are the law, so that is a must. But her holistic vet doesn't believe in vaccines at all. I honestly can't agree with that. Judy Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:59:10 +0000 To: felvtalk@MailingList.net From: BILL BEAMISH Subject: Re: shots Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Jim, My vet does follow the protocol for giving the vaccines to my cats. I'm sure she does the same for anyone else who wants the vaccine for their cat. She just doesn't recommend it for EVERY cat. Judy -------------------------------------- From: katseven@pcsia.com Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:36:06 -0600 Subject: re: Rissa-Tai is not doing well To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Pam: I am thinking of you during this hard time. I'm praying for your baby. Susan -------------------------------------- Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:14:40 +0000 To: felvtalk@MailingList.net From: BILL BEAMISH Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Thank you, Kat, for the site about vaccination site sarcomas. I printed it up and I'm going to show it to my vet. Judy -------------------------------------- From: PUFFERINO Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:18:34 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Jim's computer Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Count me in too! Regards, Joan -------------------------------------- Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:12:25 -0500 From: topcat@cstone.net (Ronald Herfurth) To: felvtalk Subject: Survivors Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net March is survived by 15 other cats from a variety of cicumstances. 3 years ago this month March was LOPed (left on porch) at the Charlottesville / Albemarle Virginia SPCA. I adopted her in May and she tested Positive for Felv in June 1995. She died 2 weeks ago. I discovered this group the next day. I had several other cats at the time and since they were all vacinated against Felv the vet said I could chance it and keep March. I've rescued several since then and all but Pooh are vacinated. I got Pooh last summer and he has FIV. The vet and I decided I'd keep Pooh but wouldn't vacinate him since the vacine might make him sick. Whenever I bring a new one home they stay in the nursery (an unused bedroom) until 3 weeks after their second Felv shot so I hope they're safe but time will tell. So far all the others have tested negative. After Pooh's time has come I'll (reluctantly) test some of the others and keep my fingers crossed. -------------------------------------- Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:53:33 +0000 To: felvtalk@MailingList.net From: BILL BEAMISH Subject: Re: shots Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Barb, As I just said to your MUCH OLDER brother - I have gotten shots for all my cats since I brought home Felv with Chester 14 years ago. Actually, there was no vaccine in 1984 when I found Chester. Ironically, one month after 5 out of my 6 cats were diagnosed with Felv, the vaccine became available. I advise everyone to get the vaccine even with the risk of sarcoma. With all the cats we have taken in and had vaccinated, we have never had a sarcoma - that's a lot of cats. I'm really kind of surprised we never have had one. I guess it is kind of rare. My sister's holistic vet believes that after the kitten shots and one booster, the cat is protected for life. As I said, I don't think I agree with that. Judy -------------------------------------- From: DLMLLM Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:43:59 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Rissa-Tai is not doing well Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Pam I hope your kitty gets better. It's only been a month for me with Russian. I don't have much to contribute anymore but it helps to be at least here and read how the kitties are doing. And all of you. You do all you can for Rissa-Tai. I to tried to stay calm, and that would be a great feat for me. It is not easy. But your strength helps the kitty more then we realize. I will keep you both in my thoughts. Linda In memory of Russian -------------------------------------- From: "Claude Horstmann" To: Subject: Vaccination Website & Rissa-Tai Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:19:12 -0500 Reply-to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Thanks for the information, I've printed the 7 pages and will drop them off at my Vet's office tomorrow while shopping for A/D food and more vitamins. I am so sorry to hear about Rissa-Tai and am at a loss as to suggestions. You say she was eating ? Is she still on Prednisone ? We are all holding our collective breath with you on this one, my heart sank when I logged on and saw your message. Try the catnip.. it's as holistic as you can get and might lighten her despair. For YOUR despair, may I suggest something a little stronger, and preferably ICED. keep posting to us, ..marilyn.. -------------------------------------- From: Newtanator Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:38:10 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Rissa-Tai is not doing well Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Pam, When Merlin was so bad over Christmas, I thought he was going to die. I was ready for him to die, sure that he would die. But then, he slowly got better. The day he walked we all celebrated. I called my Mom and told her, I told the list, the entire free world knew Merlin had taken some steps. I thought the worst was over. When he suddenly got sick again, it was such a shock, he was gone so fast. I had let myself think and believe that he was going to make it. That was my big mistake. With this damnable disease it does that to you. It lets you think you have the upper hand and then it bites you. This is probably not what you want to read, I know that, but take each day, each hour, and be thankful for them. Give Rissa a kiss everytime you pass her, tell her you love her. Always hope the the best, but expect the worst. I have lost three now, four counting Socrates the original carrier. Each was such an individual, a little treasure in my life and as painful as it has been, I would not give up knowing one of them. I still think of Merlin everyday. I gave the cats some catnip today and I actually, without thinking glanced around for him because he loved catnip so. Rissa has helped us all so much. We know that Neupogen works, hopefully, we will find out that Epogen does too. I wish I could tell you she will be fine, but that would be foolish and we just don't know what will happen. Know that I am thinking of you and her because I surely know how you feel right now. And we must find strength and resolve to hunt this virus down and without mercy, destroy the thing. It can be done. It will be done, somehow. barb -------------------------------------- From: Newtanator Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:41:41 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: shots Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Jim, Perhaps to make sure your vets know the proper protocal, print it out and take it in to them. We can only hope they will follow it on others, but can stand over them and insist they follow it with ours. Barb -------------------------------------- From: Newtanator Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:53:38 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: shots Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Judy, While many of the holistic meds are very good, I am truly frightened by those that take it to the extreme. We have them in Human medicine as well and they are causing a disaster in the making. They talk parents out of giving antibiotics, vaccinations and sometimes even insulin to their children. Some even die if not made wards of the state in time. Modern medicine and holistic and homeopathic medicine can work together very well, but to discard the advances made in the last 50 years is insane to me. Polio is practically unheard of, but 50 years ago it killed and crippled tens of thousands. Holistic medicine had nothing to do with it, the vaccine did. Try digging up some stats on the upswing of disease where parents do NOT vaccinate their children. In countries that don't have them. We don't keep records on our animals for the most part, except maybe rabies so the human route may be the way to go. But if she chooses to stop vaccinating her pets, I can only hope her luck holds up because it could be tragedy waiting to happen. barb -------------------------------------- From: Newtanator Date sent: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:00:59 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: shots Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Judy, As my brother can attest to, I inquired, it seems a lifetime ago, to the younger vet in the office about vaccinations for my cats. He asked me if I let them outside, I told him no, and he said they weren't needed then. Since I almost always saw the vet that owns the clinic, the older one, this one didn't know my habits of bringing in NEW ones all the time. Dr. Black would have known that and prob told me to get them. Looking back, had I just asked the right vet, all the pain and misery could have been avoided. Luck of the draw and I lost. I know you vaccinate your cats but after my experience, to me there is no reason, except if it is found the cat is allergic to the shot, not to give them. barb -------------------------------------- END