Monday February 23, 1998 Part 3 15 Messages ====================================== Date sent: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:43:01 -0600 To: :@mail.bradmark.com From: Cheryl DeSantis Subject: OFF TOPIC: declawing Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net I have heard many things about declawing, but thought this group would be the best to ask. I actually hate the thought myself, but other than feeling like I'm going against nature can anyone give me some pros and cons of declawing a cat almost 2 years old. All methods of stamping out scratching furniture has been attempted: keeping nails trimmed scratching posts using sprays covering furniture using aluminum foil using citrus peels using little bags filled with spices cats hate water gun ( I'm not very good with this one) etc, etc. etc. Thank you. - Cheryl DeSantis Bradmark, Inc. 4265 San Felipe Suite 800 Houston, TX 77027 800-621-2808 http://www.bradmark.com -------------------------------------- From: Newtanator@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:13:58 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: declawing Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Cheryl, Have you tried the little plastic things they put on the cats nails? I hear people have had good luck with those. It's not that it does some kind of long lasting mental problems, but it's just so painful for them. Declawing is like if we cut off all our fingers at the first joint. Not a pleasant thought. Maybe having one chair they are allowed to tear up. Or just give up having expensive furniture like I have. Barb -------------------------------------- From: "Steve Lackow" To: Subject: Re: Michele about Timmy & Boots Date sent: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:42:07 -0800 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hi Michele. To me, it seems your mom's cat is the one in danger. Most of the numbers I see quoted say that if cats have lived together, wrestled, groomed etc. and only 1 got sick with FeLV, the odds of the other ever getting it are only 10 to 15%. Besides, for these guys, their quality of life seems tied to being together, and that makes it a no-brainer. But your Mom's cat... it seems more than possible that Boots, let alone Timmy, could infect her. Lucky Boots seems to have built up immunity, but that doesn't mean the FeLV is not in his system(s). -- steve -------------------------------------- Date sent: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:03:22 -0500 From: "albobo@worldnet.att.net" To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Kathy Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net > Hey Barb and all! > Has anyone heard from Kathy in Daytona???? Yes, I'm here and fine. There was a tornado in Daytona but not near us, thankfully! Thanks for thinking of us - it's been a rather bad day here in central Florida - such horrible devestation - mostly between here and Orlando. Thanks for thinking of us. Purrs, Kathy G and the 3 Furries in Daytona Beach =^.^= - Rusty =^.^= - Smokey =^.^= - Money See us at: http://cgi.gambitsys.com/homey/webdoc5.htm The Cat: Mother Nature's Masterpiece! -------------------------------------- From: "Cheri Gardiner" To: Subject: Re: Michele about Timmy & Boots Date sent: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:09:27 -0600 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Michele, I agree with Steve. I asked my vet what would happen if one of mine came up negative at the next test. I was afraid I would have to separate them. She said no, that the negative one probably would have an immunity to the disease. Besides with my two they enjoy each other so much, their quality of life would definitely go down. These two have been together for months now. Hope everything is going better for you. You are going through some major changes right now. I know how you feel. I just did the same thing myself. Let me know if you want to talk. Cheri G., Kitty & Chaz In memory of ym little boy Mickey -------------------------------------- From: "RDC" To: Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: declawing Date sent: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 02:21:27 +0100 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Down here in Germany vets are forbidden to declaw cats, as it is lawfully marked as cruelty to animals. My advice: Take decor blankets, wall carpets or gobelins to cover upholsteries (look good to picky visitors and can get replaced when shred to pieces), and ignore the wood. If you can't ignore the wood, get yourself a mixture of stain and bee wax for woods (in any restauration or antic shop), and polish the wood with it. It's a bit work, but it makes scratches almost invisible, a neat trick when selling antics. Cats don't like the smell, maybe you're lucky and it will keep the little criminal from scratching later on - but just maybe.. Don't put the mixture on too thick, or you can polish for ages - better do it twice. And don't take too much stain, your woods might have a new color afterwards (bright stain for bright woods, dark stain for dark woods). Always start at a hidden place to see how the surface reacts - some sorts of lac layers might take it ill from you. Ask in a restauration shop when you have doubts. And take good original bee wax for woods, all the household furniture polishing stuff is crap and often even poisonous for the cat. Apart from that, relax and be glad the scratchy monster is still there to ruin your habits. My Charlie passed away last year - I would give my right arm to have him here, going on with his destructive job on my most beloved antic leather armchair.. RDC -------------------------------------- Date sent: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:52:20 +0000 From: LawBet Organization: Home for Wayward Felines To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: declawing Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Cheryl, We have one of 13 who has been declawed. Her name is Sasha. We have my MUCH YOUNGER sister to thank for her presence in our house. She was a neighborhood stray in my sister's neighborhood one time when we went to visit. Sasha was terrified of coming into my sister's house because of her dogs. So naturally my MUCH YOUNGER sister batted her MUCH YOUNGER big brown eyes and my wife and I had a new cat in the family. She has done that a couple of times now. So before we visit her each year, we make sure she has no stray cats in the vicinity. Sasha is a lovely cat. BUT had she been ours from a kitten, she would still have all her claws. I am adamently opposed to declawing. God created these little creatures WITH claws. I do not think he erred in his design. I can think of four very important reasons cats have claws: 1. To help catch food; 2. To defend themselves; 3. To escape up trees when they are outclassed by their opponent; and 4. To shred all your furniture, all the scratching posts notwithstanding. All 13 of our cats are indoor cats. They are never permitted outside. (It's a jungle out there). However, we have had a couple who've made mad dashes for the door whenever it was opened. They don't do that much anymore. My unit of water bottle artillery has shown them the light. Put yourself in their position. There you are on an African safari. Your husband, your guide, and all the attendents are asleep in their warm sleeping bags. It's the middle of the night and you get a hankerin for a cup of tea. You go outside the tent and when closing the tent flap, the zipper jams. All your weapons are still inside the tent and you can't get to them. A lion decides to have you for his early morning cup of tea. How do you defend yourself? You have now become the lion's breakfast. Declawing puts your cat in the same position. By doing so, you have removed the only weapon (other than teeth; which require much closer combat than claws) the cat has to defend itself. The cat now becomes easy prey for just about any animal that sees it as a meal or a plaything. Have any of our cats escaped, you ask? Yes, I answer, once. Fortunately, we rescued him before the much large wild tom got to him. He had his claws but was no match for the big tom that zeroed in on him. Do our cats claw on our furniture? Yep, they sure do. Have we broken them of it? Nope, we sure haven't. Do we have cat-clawed furniture? Yep. And my wife tells me I still snore too, after almost 35 years (but she kept me anyway and refuses to cut off my nose). What I'm saying here is that when we love somebody or we love our pet, we take them as they are. We overlook the faults we cannot change (assuming, of course that the faults are not criminal ones). I strongly recommend that you let your pets keep their claws as the Good Lord intended. Just think about it, they can't catch any dust bunnies without their claws and then you're the one who's going to have to do the vacuuming under the bed. Larry (The Lurker) -------------------------------------- From: "Cheri Gardiner" To: Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: declawing Date sent: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:04:52 -0600 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Larry, Loved the answer about declawing. You're quite the writer. It is so neat to read your comments. At the shelter, I see many cats who have their front claws removed. I also see some of the scars they have. They are very sensitive about people touching their feet too. The latest is a 5 year old who was declawed as an adult. He is extremely senstivie about anyone getting near his feet. Can't say I blame him. I saw a cat at the vet right after being declawed. Its poor little feet were swollen twice their normal size. I can't understand valuing furniture that much. I won't cut off my grandson's feet if he put them on the coffee table. Neither of my kittens scratch the sofa. Guess I'm lucky. They are terrors on one piece of woodwork though. It can always be sanded. Just my two cents. Cheri G., Kitty & Chaz In memory of my little boy Mickey -------------------------------------- From: "Cheri Gardiner" To: Subject: Re: where can I buy Ambrotose?? Date sent: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:13:13 -0600 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Barb, I've given both mine enchincea for the past two mornings. I just put a drop on their baby meat. Neither seem to mind it> I gave them some raw stew beef tonight. Chaz went crazy. Kitty ignored it. And she was the one who used to bring me all the birds, mice and squirrels. Gues she's more refined now that she a totally indoor cat. I need to get to Target or KMart for the B12 and C. What ginko do you use? Do you use a full pill of each of the three? Neither are to thrilled with the sryinge. I have to start their 7 days on of interferon tomorrow. That's a treat. How is Merlin? I hope he's doing okay. He looks like a real sweetheart. I was so sorry to hear about Russian. I hope her parents are doing okay. It's so hard being a kitty's mom or dad. But also so very rewarding. Nothing beats the love they can give. Cheri G., Kitty & Chaz In memory of my little boy Mickey -------------------------------------- From: "James G. Wilson" To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Date sent: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:33:41 +0000 Subject: Re: Wuzzy Copies to: Brad Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hi Kelly, The ELISA does have a history of producing false readings- both positive and negative, so don't go by that one. The IFA test will be much more accurate, but, as Steve will testify, even this test is not foolproof. Still, if both tests show positive, then it is likely that Wuzzy is positive :( Did your vet also draw blood for the IFA test after giving the vaccination? If so, this test too is contanimated. He should've drawn the blood *first* and waited for the results of the ELISA before he gave the vaccine. If I were you, I'd demand that he redo the tests (at his expense) on Thursday or Friday (if not at least a week later) to get a more accurate reading. The ELISA he performed has definitely been contaminated, so it is useless. I have sent your message to Dr. Myers, so we should hear something soon. Take care, and I'll send his message just as soon as it comes in. In loving memory of Vyvyan: March 20, 1988 - August 15, 1997 James G. Wilson phaedrus@ctnet.net, phaedrus69@hotmail.com, felv@angelfire.com http://www.angelfire.com/il/felv/ http://www.litchfieldil.com/members/phaedrus/ http://www.fortunecity.com//skyscraper/sterling/20/niu.html -------------------------------------- From: "James G. Wilson" To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Date sent: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:44:09 +0000 Subject: (Fwd) Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hi everyone, Olivia (Lovejoy's meowmy) has had to leave the list because of the volume of mail is interfering with her other work. She explains it all below, so please send her your thoughts privately. Thanks. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:57:10 -0500 To: phaedrus@ctnet.net From: olivia gostanian Subject: leaving Cc: felvtalk@MailingList.net Dear Jim and all our Felvtalk Friends: Thank you so much for allowing me to subscribe and interact with you all over these past few months. It has been very helpful to me in learning information that has been and will be helpful to Lovejoy's quality of life over the (hopefully) very long road we've yet to walk together. Unfortunately, I am finding that all the list messages are taking up huge chunks of my email time, which I really need to allot more of to my job. I direct continuing ed classes and get 50 + requests for information a day. When I add these to the list messages (i.e. I was out this past Friday and returned to over 250 messages, of which 200 approx. were from our list friends), it has become overwhelming. Thus, because my email address and support are provided to me through my work and I do not have a home computer set-up, I find I must excuse myself from the list to keep up with my workload. Nonetheless, please let me say once again how deeply I've appreciated 1) Jim's hard work and dedication in providing this service to us all, and 2) everyone's courage in the face of our Felv struggles, especially this past month when there have been so many losses. My heart goes out to you all -- most recently for the losses of Sasha, Benny, Storm, Beast, Copeley, and Russian. (If I missed any one, I apologize). Again, I am sorry to take leave of you and wish each and every one a life of quality & happiness with your beloved critters for as long as possible; we will think of you often and always with love and support. Take good care all! Olivia & Lovejoy personal email address: ogostan@sph.emory.edu -------------------------------------- From: "Steve Lackow" To: "FeLV Talk" Subject: OFF TOPIC: Heaven & The Bridge Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:55:28 -0800 Reply-to: felvtalk@MailingList.net First of all, this is the last of this kind of stuff you'll hear from me. I just hope I don't make it worse. The one sure sign of a modern poem is, nobody understands it, including the poet. I was hurt to learn that I upset some folks who lost kitties last week by inferring that there is no Rainbow Bridge with the lines "Don't look for me in heaven, dear, my heaven was with you" in my own poem. (This poem is not to be confused with the Lurker's clear and heartfelt gift). To those who took it that way, I'm terribly sorry. I didn't realize that it sounds like our little ones won't be in heaven or that there is no heaven or that we won't be reunited with them. I am sorry. I loved these animals enough to cry myself sick on Friday night, asking why they could not be saved like Chloe was. The result was "For Those We Lost Last Week." Why do we lose those we love so dearly, who are so close to us, who give so much to us and us to them? Especially, why should the innocent die? Here's my answer. Because it shows us in the most powerful way how beautiful life is, and teaches us to treasure it, to preserve it, to savor our moments together, to treat life like a gift, to go forth and do good with it. Our work here on Earth is far, far from done -------------------------------------- Date sent: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:04:41 -0800 From: Dana Crow Organization: Magical Moments Preschool To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: How to be humbled quickly Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Well as if to bring me back to reality, my Meeko (negative I think) is at the local vet's now fighting to survive some mystery illness. Everyday I think how lucky I am to have positive Healthy kitties never thinking of my other 2 becoming sick. I am hoping that he did not eat a poisoned rat ( he threw up a lot of grey hairs). He is very dehydrated, lethargic & has a high fever. Now on IV antibiotics & fluid as well as undergoing xrays & major blood work. I was lucky to find him. He escaped outdoors yesterday after I noticed him sick. Stayed up most of the night trying to call him in. At noon today I noticed him walking into the woods but he wouldn"t look at me or come when called. He was very cold & weak. Was hoping to hear back from vet tonight but not yet. I would loved to have brought him home as she says he is depressed. I hope for tomorrow. Perhaps we will test for FelV. Keeping fingers crossed tonight. Dana -------------------------------------- From: "James G. Wilson" To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Date sent: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:29:12 +0000 Subject: Things around here Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hey all, Sorry to be so obscure lately, but there's been alot on my mind. The events on the list recently have made me sit back and reflect on what it is that we are doing here. As some of you know, I've been accused of doing nothing but providing false hope with this work by some vets, so I had to take that very seriously during the past few weeks. We've lost so many cats lately to this dreadful disease that I was almost at a standstill with sorrow and helplessness. You must remember that, since I do the "behind the scenes" work, I see more of this than people are aware of. I keep a close eye on all those that subscribe and unsubscribe, and one thing stands out. Some folks come on and ask a few questions, then go silent and people forget they are there. Then, days or weeks later they quietly unsub, and I know the reason is obvious. So, even though folks know about Sasha, Chloe, Benny, Storm, Topaz, Beast, Copley, and now Russian, they don't know about the others (perhaps as many as four others). Thankfully, people have reminded me well that their cats are alive and well because of the work we do. This is very important to me because I'd hate to think that I was guilty of "giving false hope" to people- that would be a cruel thing to do. After much soul-searching this weekend and many kind words from everyone on the list, I now believe this accusation to be unfair and false. I apologize to everyone for dropping the ball in my moments of doubt, so I extend my most heartfelt condolences to each and every person that has lost a precious loved one here. I've shared your grief, but I leave it up to others that have the words of strength and courage that I could not muster. There is another reason why I have been distracted from the list during the past few days. I don't know if it's appropriate to announce it here (especially with all the losses we've had), but I went and let another precious little life adopt me last Friday. He is a 6 month old DMH calico male kitten that I'm still trying to think of a name for. I've been calling him "little guy" since I brought him home, but he needs a name. I've been thinking of "Rocky" because of his colors and markings, but he's gotten attached to the "little guy" idea. Anybody have any thoughts?- privately please, though. He hasn't let me out of his sight since he got here- he spends most of his time in my lap, so it's kinda hard to do the computer stuff (I can't lean in as close as I need to ). Moxy still isn't too happy with him yet, but she does occasionally try to play with him. She was the main reason I brought him home- so she'd have someone to play with while I worked here. Anyway, I'll try to get a picture up of him soon so everyone can see him. Right now, both he and Moxy test negative for FeLV and neither have any inclination (yet) to go outside, so we'll keep our fingers and paws crossed. I'm still a little behind with projects, so I'll try to get them going again as soon as possible. Again, I apologize to those that have written me privately that I haven't gotten back to yet, but I get a number of other requests and such from folks that aren't on the list- they need my more immediate attention first. I've sent out the "control" message to set up the newsgroup (and I've received one negative response from an admin in British Columbia, Canada so if anyone's on "intouch.bc.ca", you're out of luck), but it will take awhile for the internet to catch up with it. I'll be sending out a message tomorrow with the necessary info that I hope people will redistribute to all relevant cat lists and newsgroups- Kathy's been my sidekick so far for sending out messages to those lists and groups, but we'll need more help. I still haven't found a proper template for the newsletter yet, so it isn't ready to start. But, we'll get it all going soon. No word yet on my computer situation yet, either- I'll call them tomorrow to see if I can find out anything, and I'll let y'all know. Well, I've wasted enough of everyone's time with this off-topic stuff, so I'll quit now :) Take care, and know that you are all in my thoughts, and I thank each and every one of you for having the courage and strength to be here. Talk to y'all soon. In loving memory of Vyvyan: March 20, 1988 - August 15, 1997 James G. Wilson phaedrus@ctnet.net, phaedrus69@hotmail.com, felv@angelfire.com http://www.angelfire.com/il/felv/ http://www.litchfieldil.com/members/phaedrus/ http://www.fortunecity.com//skyscraper/sterling/20/niu.html -------------------------------------- Date sent: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:36:57 -0600 From: Cheryl and Michael To: "felvtalk@MailingList.net" Subject: declawing responses Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Thanks to all for your responses. I feel guilty about asking this now.... My cats have never been declawed as I have always felt the same way as the responses. However, I have run into more than a fair share of people that do declaw and claim it is "no big deal". I brought this question to this group because of the care and affection I know lives here. Any cat brought into this home will always have top priority for their health, comfort and utter happiness. They all will have ample opportunity and built in natural tools in which to assist me in cleaning under the beds and anywhere else they see fit. Thanks for sewing up any doubts I may have exhibited...:) Cheryl -------------------------------------- END