Monday February 2, 1998 Part 4 18 Messages ====================================== From: Newtanator@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:11:36 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Immunity/Titre/Vaccination Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Dr, You're right again, I thought it had been taken off the market. My vet and my brothers vet, both from different states (mich and Illinois) won't even have it in the building and won't give it. I have heard this from several people, that their vets will not give it because they think it actually gives the cat that may be prone to getting it, the disease. barb -------------------------------------- From: Newtanator@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:18:15 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: nausea and vomiting Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Lynn, You mean Zantac? I didn't know you could give that to cats. Some cats are just more prone to throwing up. I have a siamese that if he eats one grain of dry cat food that is anything other than Iams, he throws it up within 30 secs. Needless to say, I don't buy the other kind. Canned however, and dry Iams Lamb and Rice, doesn't bother him. I wondered if it was the dyes they put in some of those foods. barb -------------------------------------- From: Newtanator@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:22:15 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Russian Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Linda, No thanks necessary. This group got me thru a crisis with Merlin over Christmas. That's what we are all about. Helping each other. barb -------------------------------------- From: Newtanator@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:13:48 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: nausea and vomiting......... Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Lynn, Are we talking dry heaves here? I would think withholding food and water for a while to give the stomach time to settle down, might help. (We are talking about your cat aren't we?) If it's you, I would have a couple more suggestions. Barb -------------------------------------- Date sent: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 20:28:32 -0500 From: Tookie Myers To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: nausea and vomiting Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net He can be allergic to any number of things in the foods. Supplementing with digestive enzymes, either Infinity2's Digest A Meal or Prozyme, is helpful in many cases. M. W. Myers, D.V.M. -------------------------------------- From: Newtanator@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:26:14 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: nausea and vomiting Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net I think it would be a great idea for someone to put out a book that tells us what meds we can use on cats and which ones we shouldn't. I know we shouldn't use ANY without checking with the vet first, but many people don't. They think if it works for them it will work for the cat to. barb -------------------------------------- From: Newtanator@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:34:45 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Sick Cat-reply to Barb. Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Linda, What we usually tell folks is if your present vet won't even TRY some of the new treatments, find a new vet. Fortunately, there are more good vets than bad. Just like MD's. You have to remember, many of these treatments have just come about in the last year or two and if they don't keep up, they won't have a clue as what you are talking about. But then, a lot of these treatments don't seem to get much journal space. Mine reads all the journals and he asks me to research this or that that I come in with so he can read because it's not mentioned in the vet journals much. He had heard of ImmunoRegulin for dermatitis in dogs but had no idea it was being used for felv cats. Now he knows. And interferon. Acemannan is one we haven't gotten into yet. I have taken in research papers off the net for him, but I haven't used it yet. But at least he's reading about it! Barb -------------------------------------- From: Newtanator@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:42:16 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Immunity/Titre/Vaccination Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Dr. Myers, This is an off the wall question, but why not. Stats show that about one third of cats that are exposed to felv, don't get it, one third that are exposed, get it and beat it. Now if you could find one that you KNOW had the disease, and you know now it was one that beat the disease, would there be any benefit in giving a positive cat a transfusion from that cat? I mean the now free cat had something in it's body that was able to fend off the disease. Obviously, we don't know what that is, if we did we would all be rich. What is it they have that the ones that get sick and die from it , don't have? They even suspect that their are people who get AIDS and beat it and may not even know they ever had it. A very similar disease. the always curious barb -------------------------------------- Date sent: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 21:18:51 -0500 From: Tookie Myers To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Immunity/Titre/Vaccination Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net This is a very plausible idea. The only trick is would the recipient get enough of this factor to be of benefit? We do a similar procedure in foals when they do not recieve sufficient transfer of immunoglobulins from their dams. A donor horse has plasma transfused from it to the foal. This takes a pretty large volume. M. W. Myers, D.V.M. -------------------------------------- From: AskforArt@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:18:47 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Immunity/Titre/Vaccination Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Barb-- Interesting theory. It works for AIDS, too. Researchers know that one in ten people exposed to the virus can fight it off with their own immune sytems. They also have been able to mark the gene that this immunity originates from. However, because it is genetic, and there is a current worldwide ban on human genetic engineering, no "aapproved" research is being done. I would guess that somewhere there is a clandestine study going on....... Linda P in Sacramento (actually, in very close to flooding in Sacramento) -------------------------------------- From: DLMLLM@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:05:44 EST To: Felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Cats Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net I wish I knew as much about this disease as all of you, I guess I'll have to learn more. I just feel for the people who are loosing their animals and have no idea of the benefits to help them. The vet told me it is not like leukemia in people, where you could do bone marrow transplants. But you could try the blood transfers. Why would not bone marrow do the same job and maybe better. And some one tell me about the nutrients and vitamins to benefit Russian when she gets back home. I will follow what the new doctor says, but was just wandering. Have a recipe for the goats milk, honey and enzyme stored in here for future reference if needed. Linda -------------------------------------- Date sent: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 22:42:44 -0500 From: Tookie Myers To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Cats Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Bone marrow transplants don't work because the virus infects them with the same end result. Human leukemia is not virus related. M. W. Myers, D.V.M. -------------------------------------- Date sent: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 22:46:12 -0500 From: Tookie Myers To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Immunity/Titre/Vaccination Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net It won't do that. It's a shame they don't lok a little further into how some of these things work before making such decisions. Are they aware that aspirin will actually exacerbate the osteophyte (bone spur) formation in osteoarthritis? M. W. Myers, D.V.M. -------------------------------------- From: Newtanator@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:06:52 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Immunity/Titre/Vaccination Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Linda, YIKES! Flooding?? Been there done that. I live on Lake Erie. Nasty little lake when it gets upset. Be careful. Barb -------------------------------------- From: Newtanator@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:22:50 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Immunity/Titre/Vaccination Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Dr. If all that is used is the plasma, which is the "left over" after the blood is spun down, can't the RBC's be reinfused back into the donor? We do that with people. Of course, the one I am thinking of is Merlin. A mere 5 lbs. I have three that were positive a year ago. One retested a weak positive on the ELISA. The other two have not been retested. All have been the picture of health for a year. In fact, the URI that raged thru the house, they didn't even get it! While several of the negatives did. One is at least 11 or 12 lbs. Which leads me to another question. I have heard it both ways. Once a positive ELISA always a positive? Like a TB test? or will they test negative again if they beat the disease? I have also heard a lot of bad things about the ELISA. To many false postives. Maybe the IFA would be the best test to do to be sure. Anyway, this is something I sure would like to try, IF one of my cats is now negative. If not, I would have to search for one, then be sure it had the disease and beat it or it would be pointless. I also have two, who were exposed to my original carrier, and thus far, are negative. While I know they could convert at any time, they also may never get it. Would there be any benefit from using them? But I would rather use one that I know had the disease at one time and somehow, mustered the right antibodies to kill it off. They would have more antibodies I think. Wait til my vet hears this idea. But he has become accustomed to me having new and strange ideas. He doesn't even do transfusions. Said he doesn't have any call for them. But there is a vet in a nearby town that does, if he isn't interested in trying something like this. But my gut feeling is Merlin is not going to beat this on his own, he is going to need something drastic to get him over the hump. Thanks for the information. THis is an idea I have had for a long time, but I thought it was so simple, surely it's been done and proved useless. This is exciting! Barb. -------------------------------------- From: Newtanator@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:34:47 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Immunity/Titre/Vaccination Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Dr. About the ASA. I doubt it. THey are shoving it down peoples throat for everything these days. The new, old, wonder drug. barb -------------------------------------- From: DLMLLM@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:45:07 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: ReBarb from Linda Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net You live on Lake Erie, I'm outside Akron, small world. Linda -------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Immunity/Titre/Vaccination Date sent: Tue, 3 Feb 98 00:26:10 -0500 From: George Molnar To: Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net I do not want to seem ungrateful for the responses to date, but --- there have been quite a few responses under the header of "Immunity/Titre/Vaccination" that have nothing to do with the topic I presented. My question revolved around the interpretation and diagnosis of the titre test for, specifically FIP - Feline Infectious Peritonitis - an idiopathic (idiopathic - we don't know what it means, and we feel like idiots), multifocal (multifocal- it seems to appear in a lot of places in your cat), inflammatory (inflammatory - something isn't right and it might need treatment) disease (disease - that's the best name we have for it). A few facts, not to be condescending, but to point out what some people may not know: Around late 1992 early 1993 there was a FIP vaccine (Primucell), administered nasally, over a series of three vaccinations, spaced 2-3 weeks apart, that were advocated by veterinarians. It was a nasal vaccine - a squirt up the nose - reason being that, that was where current thought felt that the virus entered the system. Now, the same vets who vaccinated our cats four years ago, who swore by it, who promoted it on their little "notices" every time we received a bill, or received a postcard advising us of the vaccination schedule, or went in for a "check-up" are abdicating their previous position. Without any explanation nor justification. No vet wants to talk about FIP or the vaccine. I am not interested in criticizing them, I simply want to know - what do these titres mean. >It would be wonderful if someone could shed light on this, but, to date >there is no definitive test for FIP. If the cat has clinical signs and >fluid can be obtained from the chest or abdomen, some test may indicate >whether FIP is present and active. FIP carriers and exposed cats that >have cleared themselves of the disease are a diagnostic dilemma. i agree that there is no "definitive test for FIP"; but I also do not understand how veterinarians can say that "your cat has FIP" without substantive, medical and statistical support for their non-biopsy diagnosis. There is a chance, a probability, a likelihood, associated with every event. What I want is for the vet med profession to tell me what their best estimates are of the accuracy of these tests - to say that "our tests are not accurate" is not acceptable, they are YOUR tests, make them accurate. I am asking why there is no definitive test for FIP, why the veterinary profession promoted this particular vaccine, why they so quickly abandoned the vaccine, and how they are now prepared to interpret the results of "titre" tests. And most importantly, how are they equipped to deal with the very same cats that THEY vaccinated 3 or 4 years ago that are now presenting (I love that word - vets use it all the time, presenting, as if it were a show for them) signs of FIP. I know about FIP, Fecv, PCR and reverse-pcr tests for FIP. I know about clinical signs, biopsies, and corona viruses- what I want to know is how is the veterinary medical profession going to treat the animnals that they vaccinated and that are now coming down with the diseases that they were vaccinated against? i am simply asking - how does one interpret these tests, and if the answer is we can't - then why was the vaccine promoted as it was and why were we left "dangling in the wind" regarding both the short term and long term effects of this procedure. Be seeing you George Molnar for pachy mailto:pachy@earthlink.net Pachy's Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~pachy -------------------------------------- END