Saturday January 10, 1998 Part 1 19 Messages ====================================== Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:53:40 -0500 From: albobo To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: (Fwd) The Light in the Darkness Award Reply-To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Jim and Everyone, Concatulations on the Award! And well-deserved may I add! Kathy G and the 3 Furries in Daytona Beach =^.^= - Rusty =^.^= - Smokey =^.^= - Money See us at: http://cgi.gambitsys.com/homey/webdoc5.htm The Cat: Mother Nature's Masterpiece! ------------------------------------- From: Newtanator Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:39:32 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Brian& Jennifer Reply-To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Lynn, First, I commend you for taking in so many. I to have 17 of the little furries and I love each and every one of them. It seems every extra $ I have goes to them, food, litter, vet care. Merlin alone has cost a bundle, but watching him toddle across the floor, still wobbley but better every day, makes it all worth it. I agree with you on the not separating. Anyone who has been to my www site has read that I do have one that is in a bedroom because the couple of bullies that I have have "shunned" him and he is so terrified of them that just to see them makes him soil himself. But he is happy in there. If he is happy, so am I. To find another home for him would be impossible. He happens to be one of the positives, (altho it is entirely possible he may be free of it now. He was only tested once, over a year ago and has never shown a single symptom, but I gave him ImmunoRegulin at home) He was also feral and will allow only me to pet him. So he is here to stay. His friends come and visit and he is happy. As to the testing. I took one or two in at a time to keep the cost down and my vet gives me a bit of a break. So, one by one they were tested and thank goodness, only three (I didn't have Merlin yet) were positive. Those three were treated and remain the picture of health and it has been over a year now. When Merlin came along, I didn't test him. He was so little, sick with numerous other things and well, I just didn't do it. He was sickly all the time and I feel pretty stupid that I didn't see it coming. Neither did my vet, but when he was tested, when he couldn't shake a URI like the others did, my vet said, looking back over his record, we both should have seen it coming. He probably had it all along. But I am very hopefully that Merlin can beat this. If he can survive what he has just been thru, he can beat anything. I guess some of us over react some because we have had to watch others that were not lucky. We have had to watch dear ones die, an inch at a time and it is awful. I cannot describe to you how helpless you feel. How guilty you feel that there is nothing you can do. I lost Newton and Kallie before I even knew there were treatments out there. I discovered ImmunoRegulin just a week before Kallie died. But she already had lymphosarcoma and it was to late. We all can say if I had only known then, what I know now.....but looking back instead of forward does no good and serves no purpose, except to learn from it. What I learned, and I hope others will learn from it is the old saying "and ounce of prevention" Talk to your vet, he makes a lot of money off you and hopefully you have a good relationship with him. Tell him that you would like to test your cats, but the expense would kill you. Ask him if he will do two or three at a time at a discount. Most vets are good and kind people and he might cut you a deal. If he won't, well, just do one at a time. There is no hurry. Do the youngest first and work your way up. As Jim has said, we are all here because we love cats. But we all have different circumstances and have to live under certain constraints, like $ income. We all do the best we can. Like you I take in the starving, the abused the unwanted. Every day here is a day they wouldn't have had. I for one, want to give you a pat on the back for your efforts. I know it's not easy, with so many. The way my little pigs eat, I could go broke buying food! This group was formed so we could all share experiences and knowledge. THis is how we all can do more for our babies. Without the support and advice from the group, I don't think Merlin would still be here. For that I am grateful. You just do the best you can do and know that we will be here to help you out. Barb ------------------------------------ From: Newtanator Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:48:29 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Newtanater leukemia testing Reply-To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Lynn, Just read your letter about treating non symptomatic cats. Absolutely! What the treatments do is help the cats own defenses beat the virus, or at least keep it under control. There is NO know cure for FeLV. No human cure anyway, but cats have been able to beat it themselves. Why, we don't know. Some are able to and some aren't. About a third of cats exposed, never get it all. They are immune. Why, we don't know. Another third, do get the virus, but are able to fight it off and kill it. I sure wish we knew how they do that. The other third get it and can't fight it off. Those are the ones we are trying to help. With medicines, nutrition, vitamins and a lot of love, we can keep this group with us a long time, we hope. Barb ---------------------------------------- From: Newtanator Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:58:21 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Brian& Jennifer Reply-To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Lynn, As you can see I am scrolling down the letters and answering as I come to them. You are not doing anything wrong. You are doing the best you can and that is all any of us can do. The important thing is your cats are loved, fed, warm and safe. I have been dealing with this disease for two years now. Have lost 3, the two I mentioned and the original carrier, and two other possibles. One was very old and had been fighting thyroid problems and one was a sudden death. Since I started testing and vacinating, I haven't lost any more, tho Merlin was a close call. Read my other long letter. It pretty much says what I have to say. But I think you are great. We are probably very much alike. Stopping to try and get that bone thin stray in the field. (That one I gave my nephew). No disease will ever stop us from doing that! Barb -------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:55:26 -0500 From: Brian and Jennifer Kleeman To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Separating vs. Not (long) Reply-To: felvtalk@MailingList.net James, I agree that we all have a lot to learn from each other, and debates are best accomplished in a more objective way than my earlier post. I find the separating vs. not separating issue very interesting and would be happy discuss my current (though ever evolving!) reasons for why I chose to keep all three of my cats together. Once again, I can only speak from my experience. Please note, my experience is also a lesson in how testing is not at all foolproof. Here goes: First, some background: I have one female Chartreux, named Yo-yo, who is three years old. She contracted FeLV from a kitten we adopted almost two years ago from a feral mom. The kitten had tested negative at ten weeks old (too early to be meaningful as we later learned). Niether were vaccinated (an entirely different debate we could also pursue!). Yo-yo is third generation my breeding, I knew every cat that she had ever contacted previously had been negative for FeLV. When the kitten was 10 months old he became severly anemic. This is when we learned he was positive for FeLV. With immunoreglin, steroid (yet another debate!) and vitamin treatment, he survived for about 10 days before we looked into his eyes and could tell he no longer wanted to fight. We then put him to sleep (a decision that still keeps me up some nights). At the kitten's death we tested Yo-yo again, still negative. We had also vaccinated her upon learning that the kitten was positive. Six weeks later (as required by the current protocol) she again tested negative. We were told by both of our vets that it would be ok to adopt new kittens (which we were very anxious to do). We found three syblings: two orange boys (we named Nacho and George) and a beautiful tortie (we named Smudge). This time, we tested the mom, twice and tested the kittens three times. The kittens again tested negative at about 12 weeks and received their first FeLV vaccine (to which they all had allergic reactions-- another possible discusion!). That day, our vets assured us it would be okay to let Yo-yo meet them. Until this point, the kittens had stayed in a bedroom by themselves. At thirteen months, Smudge too became anemic and was diagnosed with FeLV. My heart stopped when I heard the news. How on earth could she be positive???? We had everyone else tested and learned that Yo-yo was indeed positive. After receiving two weeks of immunoregulin, vitamins, and treatment in an oxygen tent, sweet Smudge passed away on her own. Now the debate: As it stands we have Yo-yo who is definitely shedding the virus (based on testing and experience) and The Boys who are vaccinated and remain (knock on wood) negative. At the time we learned that Yo-yo was positive, the Boys had been with her constantly for 10 months. This point was absolutely pivotal in our decision to keep all three together. Our other options were to adopt out either Yo-yo or the Boys, OR keep them separate in our own home. We considered all of these options and pray to God each and every night that we have made the best choice out of bad choices. The so-called "bedroom" option was dismissed pretty quickly. Only as a last option to euthanasia can I see having a cat spend its life in one room. We are lucky enough to have friends and family who do not have cats who were more than willing to adopt any or all of our cats. Our first concern was protecting the Boys. The most obvious solution to do this would be to separate them from Yo-yo. This would only be helpful, however, if the boys were _truly_ negative. And after talking with many vets (practically any vet I came across :) ), we learned that there was no guarantee that the boys were really negative. The IFA test is helpful, a bone marrow test which requires anesthesia would be even more reliable. This test, however, would cause the boys great stress. If they did have FeLV, it could trigger the disease to become active. A risk we were too afraid to take given the small amount of additional reliability offered by the bone marrow test. Also, there have been instances of cats exposed to FeLV not testing positive until YEARS later (in one case 7). Long story short, in order to protect the Boys from further exposure we would need to upset their surroundings which potentially could cause them great stress which could cause the disease to become active. We next considered what would be best for Yo-yo. Yo-yo happens to be an extremely easy going and unstressed cat (which is why I have been able to be so aggressive in her treatment). But after the first kitten died, she became very depressed. They had been very close and she missed him greatly. As much as Yo-yo loves humans, she needs the companionship of other cats. Also, upsetting her current situation could cause her stress which could cause her to become ill. As my current vet constantly reminds me, stress in her case can be deadly. Therefore, in order to _possibly_ protect the boys, we would undoubtedly be risking Yo-yo's health. In the end, we decided that our cats were all essentially healthier and happier than they'd ever been. After ten months of exposure, I have to think that either the vaccine or the boys own immunity (Or BOTH) have successfully protected them, and possibly will continue to do so. I should note, however, that had I learned that Yo-yo was positive prior to introducing the Boys and Smudge, I obviously never could have done so. My expereinces and my vet have also persuaded me that once a cat has been exposed to FeLV, REGARDLESS of whether it tests negative, that cat should never be exposed to a new negative cat. In other words, even if Yo-yo does pass away and the boys continue to test negative, we have promised our vet that we will not adopt another FeLV negative cat until the last of the three has left us. This is the ONLY way that we can asure ourselves that this disease will not be spread any further. Had I had this position two years ago, Smudge would likely be a healthy, happy cat today. I hope my exeedingly long post has been helpful in explaining why we have chosen to keep our three together. I believe the decision must be made on an incredibly individual basis. What the personalities of the cats dictate and what allows each of us to sleep a little more soundly at night. Jennifer Kleeman Minoux Chartreux -------------------------------- Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:03:42 -0500 From: Brian and Jennifer Kleeman To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Apology to Lynn Reply-To: felvtalk@MailingList.net I am reposting this message because it didn't appear to post the first time and it is very important to me that this be said. Brian and Jennifer Kleeman wrote: > > Hello Lynn & James, > > I do apologize to the both of you, and the rest of the list for the > emotional tinge of my earlier e-mail concerning testing. I will do my > best to maintain my objectivity in the future. > > I know we are all here because we care so much about our cats and want > to do what is the very best for them. That is what I had hoped to > communicate to Lynn and to the list in my response. We test because we > care. From reading later posts, I understand that Lynn truly didn't > know the benefits from testing. It is my hope that Lynn is able to > forgive how I said what I said and understand what I was trying to urge > her to do: get her cats tested. > > I know you love your cats, Lynn. That is clearly obvious from the many > posts you have offered to the list. Please do not take what I said as a > questioning of this love. > > Hoping to mend fences, Jennifer Kleeman Minoux Chartreux --------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:14:13 -0600 (CST) From: "Nancy A. Schmall" To: felvtalk Subject: re: leukemia testing AZHART Reply-To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Lynn, I just wanted you to know what I do with my kitties. I have 7, 2 of which are FELV+, have/had symptoms, and are being treated with interferon. One is also being treated with immunoregulin and prednisone. I had 3 others who were FELV+ and have died. I put 2 of them down because they were very ill, had tested positive, and interferon was not used at the time. Immunoregulin was too expensive for me at that point in my life. I thought I was doing the right thing. Since then I have decided to of course test any newcomers, also isolate them until beyond their last shots. Then the entire group lives together--sick with nonsick, etc. According to the literature this is not the ideal. To separate positives from negatives would be the best way. Like you, I chose NOT to do that--for reasons of not enough room, isolation of friends, MY PERSONAL UPSET--for me it would not work and therefore, would not work for my kitties. It is not everyone's answer; but it is the best for me. I have a responsibilitiy and a commitment to treat all the kits if they develop ANY lifelong disease, but I will no longer kill my cats because they develop FELV nor will I separate them. All of my original 13 cats were tested and tested negatively. Since then I have learned that the test is not 100% accurate nor is the vaccation 100% effective. My belief is this: we have to do for our cats what we each individually feel is right and what works best for us. Otherwise, if we try what works for others and does not feel right for us will send all kinds of vibes and tension amongst our cats and it won't work. Does that make sense? I hope so. I personally support all your efforts and trust that your your decisions work for YOU and THEREFORE, WORK for youR CATS. Good thoughts--love, Nancy -------------------------------------- From: "Carol Gentry" To: Subject: Bedroom Kitty Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:16:06 -0800 Reply-To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Lynn- I know how you feel about putty the kitty in a bedroom by themselves but at night I put Sasha in my computer room by herself along with her litter box, food and water and her blanket. In the morning she is just like my old Sasha. Standing up, wanting to be petted and held and her sqeeky little meow. I can't explain it but she almost seems to do better in here then out in the family room with the rest of the cats running around. She is never egnored. I'm in here most of the time anyway. But maybe just not having to look at the other cats running around and being normal has helped. I don't know if it makes any sense but think about how you feel when you're sick. I know that I just want to be left alone. Maybe thats it. When she's out in the family room both myself and my husband are always talking to her. In here she just gets more rest. Don't know if this makes sense or not. Carol ----------------------------------- From: "Carol Gentry" To: Subject: Re: felv testing Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:30:18 -0800 Reply-To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Jennifer- I totally agree with you. Had I even known that Sasha could be tested, her and I both would have been ahead of the game. Eventhough I have been told that hers is already in the bone, I still have to try. So far she is holding her own. Carol -------------------------------------------- From: "Carol Gentry" To: Subject: Re: felv testing Date sent: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:30:18 -0800 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Jennifer- I totally agree with you. Had I even known that Sasha could be tested, her and I both would have been ahead of the game. Eventhough I have been told that hers is already in the bone, I still have to try. So far she is holding her own. Carol -------------------------------------------- From: "Carol Gentry" To: Subject: Lynn Date sent: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:57:25 -0800 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net If there is one thing that I have learned from joining this site is the support is out there. I know how confusing this all is and how painful it is. My husband and I had cried for days over Sasha but thanks to ALL the info and the support, we are getting thru this and so is Sasha. Just hang in there and let the good lord do his job. I'm not all that religous but I do believe that the good lord has a hand in some of this and the rest he relys on us to work on. Just hang in there. Much Love Carol -------------------------------------------- From: "Carol Gentry" To: Subject: Barb and all others Date sent: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:15:24 -0800 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hey Barb, Good Morning- I have some questions that maybe you can answer or someone out there. First of all how do you read the lab reports on your kitty? I have Sasha's but I don't know one thing from another. Any help would be appreciated. Secondly, why do they try and eat litter? Not a lot but enough to be noticed. One report I read said that they will lick cement or pottery and eat litter. WHY? Thirdly, what do you think about feeding them baby food if they don't eat? It seems that Sasha has slowed down in her eating and I'm concerned that she isn't getting enough of anything eventhough I'm giving her massive doses of Vitamins, minerals, herbs and other good stuff. What do you think? Fourthly, what about the twitching around the neck. Sasha gets B-12 and a B complex which seems to help but it still doesn't go away. And last, she seems to like to be under things or in a corner, like facing the wall. Is this for security reasons or just because she disoriented? She always slept on top of things before. I know, a lot of questions but I would appreciate any help. Thanks, Carol -------------------------------------------- From: Newtanator Date sent: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:35:04 EST To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Barb and all others Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Carol, Your vet should have gone over the lab results with you and explained them. If he didn't, post them and we will see what we can do with them. I don't know why they eat litter. I noticed Merlin doing that, but none of the others. I always feel they eat strange things because there is something lacking in the diet. What could be in clay litter, I can't imagine. Baby food is ok, but I understand you have to watch for additives like onion salt. I prefer to cook up chicken thighs. Merlin loves his chicken. I save the broth it cooks in to and warm that up and then add dry kitten food and let it soften so he eats that to. He also loves tuna so I toss in some of that and some calves liver. Merlin doesn't twitch around his neck, but he does at the base of his tail. This has to be some kind of nervous system involvement. A hypersensitivity. But the why's I don't know. Normally cats that don't feel good will hide under things. They seem to feel safer that way. You will know if she is confused. She may not know you, or be frightened of something she knows. How did it go at the vets yesterday? Is he being more reasonable? Maybe others can shed some more light on some of these. barb -------------------------------------------- Date sent: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:38:29 -0600 (CST) From: "Nancy A. Schmall" To: felvtalk Subject: re: interfeon (Nancy) Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Thanks Lynn for the info on your interferon protocol. Both my boys are on interferon and one is on immunoregulin. They are doing great. I will ask my vet about the every other week regimen. Up 'til now, they are on it all the time. nancy -------------------------------------------- From: "Lynn Stickels" To: "felvtalk" Subject: re: Barb Date sent: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:41:46 -0800 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hi, Barb I was just wondering how you treat your positive kitties that are not sickly. Do you give them both the interferon and the immunoregulin? How much and how long do you treat them? I will plan on getting my kitties tested. I would also like to apologize to the group for my behavior yesterday..............Lynn(Stinker) -------------------------------------------- From: "phaedrus" To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Date sent: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:57:04 +0000 Subject: Re: Barb and all others Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hey Barb, Carol, et al, > I don't know why they eat litter. I noticed Merlin doing that, but > none of the others. I always feel they eat strange things because there is > something lacking in the diet. What could be in clay litter, I can't > imagine. When Vyvyan became ill, he, too, began to eat the litter. But, then he'd immediately throw it back up- I thought that was why he was eating it, to make himself throw up. I told my vet about this, and he off-handedly mentioned that the other cat he was "treating" was doing the same thing. He also dismissed any notion that the cats were doing this for any particular reason- "they aren't sentient beings, so they can't deliberately do things for a reason." Anyway, if anyone knows of any reports done on this, could they please either post a web address or send a copy of the report to me privately? Thanks. > Baby food is ok, but I understand you have to watch for additives like > onion salt. I prefer to cook up chicken thighs. Merlin loves his > chicken. I save the broth it cooks in to and warm that up and then add > dry kitten food and let it soften so he eats that to. He also loves tuna > so I toss in some of that and some calves liver. Barb, a simple warning if I may. Since Merlin is a male cat, he's more prone to urinary infections caused by "high ash content" foods. Unfortunately, fish and chicken happen to be high in this content. I'm not sure how to remedy this except to give him some food that has a slightly acidic nature to it- it will help keep his urinary tract clean. Take care, and well wishes to all on the list. In loving memory of Vyvyan: March 20, 1988 - August 15, 1997 James G. Wilson phaedrus@ctnet.net , phaedrus69@hotmail.com , phaedrus69@juno.com, felv@angelfire.com http://www.angelfire.com/il/felv/ http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/sterling/20/tribute.html http://www.litchfieldil.com/members/phaedrus/ http://www.fortunecity.com//skyscraper/sterling/20/niu.html http://www.wapd.org/points/jgwilson.html -------------------------------------------- From: "Carol Gentry" To: Subject: Test Date sent: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:11:41 -0800 Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net The vet didn't go over the test with me except to say that it was in her bones already. I will have to wait for my son to post the lab report as I'm fairly new at this computer and not sure how to do this. On her lab results I notices that they give you ranges and on the Lymphocytes the range is 20-55 and her's is at 79. They have it as high. Her other high points are NRBC which is 39, MCHC which is 37.5, WBC which is 33.9, Glucose is 151, high range on that is 150, BUN which is 52 with high range at 35,Direct Bilirubin is 0.3 with high at 0.1, SGOT (AST) is 79 with high at 55, SGPT (ALT) which is 143 with high at 130. On the NRBC it has a zero range, on the MCHC iithe high range is 36 and the WBC high range is 19.5. On her platelets it says they are decreased and on the Absolute Lymphocyte she is 26781 with the high range being 7000. Fiv Antibidy is negative and then at the bottom it has FELV AG (IFA) positive. Does this make any sense? I will try to post this as soon as I hear from my son. Thanks for the other info. Especially about the Baby Food and the chicken. She also loves chicken but as of the last two days she hasn't been eating hardly anything. She does get all those vitamins and herbs though so maybe this making up for it. On the twitches, try the B-12, about 1000 mg cut into about one quarter tablet twice a day. They don't go away but they seem to be better. Haven't gone to the new vet yet. The appointment is Tuesday at 11:00 A.M. Write back and let me know if any of what I have written makes sense. There is other stuff on the report but I just gave you the High stuff. Thanks, Carol -------------------------------------------- Date sent: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:22:25 -0600 (CST) From: "Nancy A. Schmall" To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Barb and all others Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hi Carol and all, I have heard that one reason FELV+ cats eat litter and lick clay pots is because clay is a natural healer and cats instinctively know that. One woman's cat was written up in "Prevention" Magazine a number of years back. The woman rubbed pure green cosmetic clay on her cat's fur so that he would lick it off... amongst other things she gave him . . . he made a "full recovery." Nancy -------------------------------------------- Date sent: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:32:52 -0600 (CST) From: "Nancy A. Schmall" To: felvtalk@MailingList.net Subject: Re: Barb and all others Send reply to: felvtalk@MailingList.net Hi James and Barb and others, James, regarding your comment on the chicken and tuna having a high ash content, affecting urinary tract infections . . . there is a product called "Methio-Form" which acidifies urine. It's sold in many ways==a paste and as a treat. I use the treat on my kitten who is prone to urinary tract infections. She loves them. You use one a day. The price is $5.00 for 50; however, I've seen DL-Methionine sold much cheaper in veterinary supply books and at vet supply stores. Nancy -------------------------------------------- END PART 1: See Part 2 at: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/9801102.txt