There has been a turbulent few months for Prime Minister Meles Zenawi of Ethiopia and the country has been going on through a period of political uncertainty.� A police crackdown at what referred as peaceful student protest left over 30 dead.� Many of the opposition activists were detained.
This has been an acrimonious spilt within the Prime Minister's own party raising doubts about the security of his position and ominously there have been rumors of discontent within Ethiopia's armed forces.

When I met Mr. Meles at his office in the capital. He began by talking about the past. It has been ten years since the EPRDF forces toppled the regime of Mengisut H.Mariam, bringing to an end a long and bitter civil war.� I ask the Prime Minister what has been going through his mind when the rebels finally march into the capital on that day.

PM Meles:- Fear was almost in the minds of most of us.� The fear that Ethiopia would simply disintegrate. There were too many economic problems, a lot of political problems and so the hope was could have wait (word indistinct) integration.� But we could restart the process of building the nation again on the basis of embracing divergent ethnic groups, opinions.

BBC:- Because, of course, there are some eighty ethnic groups in Ethiopia?

PM Meles:- Yes, about eighty ethnic groups in this country. So our hope was to build the nation on new basis, one of unity based on diversity and embracing diversity under democratic disposition faster economic growth, more economic and more equitable development, building institutions of government and most of these I believe have been achieved.

BBC:- If you have to single out a couple of things you are particularly proud of what would these be?

PM Meles:- The fact that, we have transformed the economy from command economy to market driven without total dislocation as happened in many other places.� In fact, we have done so well at the same time achieving significant growth.� We have learned what works and what doesn't work and there fore we are now in a much better position to speed up the process of economic development in this country.� The fact that this country didn't run away that we kept it intact together.

BBC:- Why is that so significant?

PM Meles:- You remember this was the year 1991, we had all sorts of multi-ethnic states disintegrating, Yugoslavia, the former Soviet Union, even� the so called wiliness states like Somalia.� States were disintegrating left and right.� In that sense we were a better candidate than any other and that was a real fear amongst many Ethiopians and even foreigner observers that what awaits us was the same.� We have avoided that.� We have built the unity of this country on a new basis- with a democratic basis that is again a major achievement.

BBC:- If somebody visited Addis now who hadn't been for ten years, what kind of visible changes would he/she notice?

PM Meles:-� There will be quite a lot of physical changes to see, quiet a big construction activity has been going on for ten years, very different form 1991. There were queues of bread, fuel etc.� there are no those queues.� The presses of freedom are built.� People speak freely.� It was not in 1991.� Fear was in the air.� It is no longer now that people would see a lot of poverty and therefore notice although that there is a lot needs to be done and quickly.

BBC:- Some people would say that one of the big blows on your leadership has happened really within the last few months.� The crackdown on the students where you have students demanding certain rights and at the end of the few days that rather thirty people killed, hundreds of people have been arrested, there has been significant damages done in the city.� How do you respond to the allegation that you were heavy handed out, you weren't tolerating freedom of speech and you weren't particularly upholding the constitution, which demands freedom of expression?

PM Meles:- I think people are mixing up two things, the riots in town and the disturbances in the university.� The students' demand and the activities of the students in that regard have been going for months.� There was no crack down.� The issues they were raising in my view are particularly legitimate issues.� I understand they had eleven demands.� Ten of them were addressed to the satisfaction of the students themselves.� The eleventh one, they were told to be addressed over the summer.� And so, as far as the issues of the students had raised is concerned we had addressed all of these questions.
In the mean time, because rather that the time there was this split within the movement, some people and some opposition began to feel that this was a beginning of the end.� And they felt that a little push here a little show there would do the job.� They want to bank on these disturbances.� When that didn't happen, they were able to use the long term unemployed youth in the town to carry hazards.� We didn't recognize the seriousness of the problem until in the day at which time when there was wide damages in town, we have to cut down.

BBC:- You say crackdown but thirty people killed, perhaps more in that crackdown.� Are you satisfied that your police were using live ammunition to deal with the situation?

PM Meles:- The situation had got out of hand very quickly.� I am not happy that there were so many deaths.� No body can be happy about that. one death is one to many.� But at that time we had to restore law and order.

BBC:- Would the same happen again?

PM Meles:- It won't because this time around we will not be caught unaware.
BBC:- I spoke to a student yesterday who told me he was afraid to speak openly.� He was afraid that if he spoke openly and demanded his right he would be arrested.� Now, that student didn't seem to particularly feel that his grievances had been heard and he certainly felt that he was confronting a repressive regime.
PM Meles:- Well, he is entitled to his opinion. Perhaps in more direct approach to gauge such fear would be to pick up any newspaper in town and see how fearful they are�

BBC:- We have situations where students are now fleeing to neighboring Kenya and then they were afraid to stay in Ethiopia.� They are afraid to be arrested and detained. Surely, it can't be a situation you are happy with.

PM Meles:- I would ask one question before I come to conclusion.� Is there any student who has been detained?� If there is then, perhaps there is a problem.� If there isn't anyone arrested, and these people are fleeing supposedly fearing arrest probably is misreading of the situation. All I know is no student has been arrested, not a single one.

BBC:- Students should not been afraid.� They should feel like they can stand up and say if they are not happy with your government if they are not happy with the rest they should feel that they are able to stand up openly and say so.� They should feel like they are going to be arrested to be arrested as they do so.

PM Meles:- We don't arrest anybody for expressing his view.

BBC:- What about the situation with the opposition activists who were picked up at the time disturbance? Some of whom were in detention camp, some of who have been held for some forty days without charge and unreleased.� Is that a satisfactory situation?

PM Meles:- No.� The point is that these people were detained under the law of this country perhaps this happened after the riots.� We picked up people who had mountains of criminal records in the past and who have involved in the riot.� It is so happened some of these unemployed youths were members of certain opposition parities.� These people were arrested on the basis of court order in the Oromiya region and the first instance court in Addis Ababa and released some of them.� My own view is that this court had no right to over right the court order of another court in the Oromiya region.� In that case it is being appealed by the prosecutor.

BBC:- Some of the people that had been up at that time have simply vanished and not detect where they are.� Where are these people?� Are they in detention?
PM Meles:- The courts in Oromiya do know who is where and the detention camps.

BBC:- But why should there be cases secrecy about where opposition activists have been detained?

PM Meles:-� There is no secrecy you can have a secret court order.

BBC:- But even the problem here is that people would look this and say the opposition activists who have been picked up, who have been detained without charge in some cases and not denote where they are.� That is not the sign of government, which is tolerant of political oppositions?

PM Meles:- What I am trying to tell you is that we picked up dangerous vagrant who were involved in the riot.� People who had lots of criminal records unfortunately.

BBC:- Do you convince they have criminal records, all of them? And the issue here isn't that they were involved in opposition movement?

PM Meles:- The issue has nothing to do with the membership in some party. The issue has to do with the fact that these people were involved in the riot.� We picked around 5,000 may be four or five happen to be a member of some opposition parties somewhere.

BBC:- A bit more than that.� Don't you know?

PM Meles:- I am not sure.� I don't have the exact numbers.� And when we picked these people at we took them to police in the Oromiya region where we have large detention camp.� And we took the case to a court in that region.� The court in that region is dealing with the matter.� Some of the opposition parities laud a compliant in a court and the court in Addis Ababa felt that it had the right to over-right the decision of another court.� I don't believe it has as such right.� And that is why the prosecutor is appealing the case in a high court.

BBC:- There is a perception about these things.� And the perception will be that you're intolerant to political opposition groups?

PM Meles:- If we are intolerant of political opposition in the country, why should we imprison some complete members in some opposition party, not imprision the leaders.

BBC:- Your tactics trying to scare the opposition?

PM Meles:- How do you scare the opposition by taking up two or three unemployed youths who have gone in riots?
BBC:- Well, it will scare ordinary people away from being rank and file members of an opposition party, for example.�������

PM Meles:- It doesn't seem to have done that and it was not intended to do that.

BBC: -There has been a great deal of speculation about what is actually going inside the TPLF. Could you just tell us what is the nature of the division within the party? ���

PM Meles: -The division was within the leadership of the party. It doesn't involve the rank and file of the party. The divisions had to do with the way forward for this nation, as to whether we have done enough in terms of institutionalizing democratic government in this country or not; as to whether we have done enough to promote economic growth and reform in this country or not; as to whether there was consistency and clarity in our views on both these fundamental items; as to whether our relations with the rest of the world have been dealt with properly or not and as to whether relations with Eritrea were handled properly or not. What happened but contrary to our tradition was those with different view those views who were rejected by the majority of the leadership chose to walk away from the meeting. In this case their position in the leadership was suspended. ��
BBC: -So, there is a significant number of people within the leadership who were saying that the economic situation in the country wasn't good, the structural adjustment was only doing nowhere than was a kind of form of neo-colonialism and you (word indistinct) in too much over the war in Eritrea? �������

PM Meles: -Yes that is the case. �����

BBC: -How do you respond then to the fact that some of these people were your very closest allies ? The people that you fought together, this must be a huge blow to you. ��
PM Meles: -Well, divergences in views are natural thing.

BBC: -This division is seen as having weakened you personally. Do you agree with that?

PM Meles:- I don't agree with that. It has strengthened the TPLF as TPLF. But we have a clearer idea as to what we need to do. We have now a clearer idea that we haven't done enough in terms of institutionalizing democracy in this country. We have now a clearer idea that the external world is not made up of hyenas who are to devour us. We have now a clearer idea as to what economic reform entails and what have done well and what needs to be done to promote growth in this country, which is driven by the market. �������
BBC: -But do you think, you yourself has been strengthened by this and less more vulnerable because after all some of these people are some of your very closest allies? ��
PM Meles: -I don't think this is a personal issue. My views happen to be consistent with the views of the majority in the TPLF and different from those who walked out. At that particular moment, our views differed. It so happens as with the majority. ������

BBC: -You are sure about that. How much you know that in particular?
PM Meles: -Well, we have been doing a lot of grass roots discussions over the past few months. I have been personally involved in some of them and I see full support and commitment.

BBC: -Some people would say that actually the grass roots are a lot more ambivalent about than your suggesting and that the dissident group may be, some perceive to be maintaining the spirit of the party there is a kind of Marxist Leninist tradition that you passed for so long. ��
PM Meles:-Well again the proof of the pudding is in the eating. ���

BBC:-What has happened to the people that left the central committee?

PM Meles:-I think most of them are here in Addis. Two have recently been imprisoned. They have corruption cases to answer to.����

BBC:- I want to ask about what is going on within the armed forces. You recently sacked two chiefs of staffs. The man who is widely credits of delivering your victory on the Ethiopian- Eritrean war, also a commander of the air force as well. What is happening exactly?

PM Meles:- Your assessment as to how victory was delivered hinges on this or that particular individual at some extent trivialize the victory itself. We have an army. The army is an institution. It is bigger than individuals. That is the first point. Secondly, like every other institution in government and the party, how we need to clean up if there is any and therefore what we did with regards to the army is consistent with what we were doing in the movement and in government. �
BBC:- As you say Gen. Tsadkan was corrupt? ������

PM Meles:- I am saying to clean up the system. �������

BBC:- What had he not been doing perhaps he should have been doing?

PM Meles:-Quiet a lot. ��
BBC:- For example. ������

PM Meles:- Many of us are not satisfied with the way he conducted himself during the crisis? ����

BBC:- The war? �

PM Meles:- Not the war, but the crisis after the war. ���������

BBC:- Can you be more specific about? ��������

PM Meles: -We are not happy with the way he conducted himself during the split and before the split in the movement. ���

BBC: -But I felt that you with the government that said the army should not be involved in politics. �������

PM Meles: -That is right.�
BBC: -You think he was trying to influence what was going on within the party?

PM Meles: -I can't be more specific than what I have� just told you what I am saying is that constitutionally We have an army that is completely independent from the parties. As an army it has, I believe (words indistinct that to me is source of "back that we did in deed succeed in building an army as institution that is loyal to the constitution. And sticks to its duties whatever the personal sympathies of individuals might be. Having said that there are some problems in that regard and we felt that we need to remove these problems. �����

BBC:- And you are army and the chief of staff but there is still strong rumors of discontent in the rank and file in the army, that must be an extremely worrying situation for you. ��

PM Meles:- None was particularly worrying.�� ���

BBC: -Why not? ��

PM Meles:-Because I believe these are wild rumors and I know better. BBC:-You are convinced your forces are behind you? �
PM Meles:- Absolutely. They are doing the constitutional process. ������
BBC:- Do you think there wasn't any point a time one people will actively plotting your overthrow ? �
PM Meles:- It depends on what you mean by plotting an overthrow. There is a democratic process within the movement. There was a debate within the movement. Had the minority gained the upper hand, they were not have had to plot against because I would have resigned. I can't see how they would have continued with the other leader, having a completely different view as to where we should go.

BBC:- But the fact that there was also as you were suggesting some involvement in the army, that might suggest that the armed forces themselves may have seen it as a possibility to military takeover you. ���������
PM Meles:-Well, I think there was no any movement of the army. I said the army kept well, aware as institution, an army has individuals here and there who were not so consistent, that is the real threat because the army as an institution that is intact and solid behind the constitution.

BBC:- Are you convinced your own position as secure? �������
PM Meles:- I am convinced that the ideas I support are very secure.

BBC: -That is not the question. I am asking you, you personally for Prime Minister are you convinced that your position is secure and you will not be ejected from the forces by extra constitutional means?��������
PM Meles:- Oh,. there is no possibility of my being ejected by extra constitutional means, none what so ever. I never said earlier on happen to expose the ideas of the majority of the leadership. Now, it is not just the majority because the minority had left. So, I can tell you that there is more or less unanimity.�����

BBC:-Do you see the issue of the events we come to a whole series of events from the students through to the split within the ruling party through to the army. It all about to give an impression of government which is really rather on shaky ground at the moment. ������

PM Meles:- That is what the opposition felt. And I think they have miscalculated it. I think what has happened is that a bit of dust had been gathered in the movement in particularly during the conflict with Eritrea and that in the process of shaking up this dust there was quiet a lot of what is mystically called collateral damage and at now the movement has dust off its dust and ready is to go. ���
BBC:- The issue of the war against Eritrea, there seems to be a deep resentment that you actually didn't push for more even though you won the war. Do you think that fairer criticism? �����
PM Meles:- When people are entitled to their own opinion I felt that like many others it was in the best interest of our country to kill ourselves to resist an aggression. ��
BBC:- Some people say that you are actually too far ahead of your party as well you are too progressive in your views in economic management, where Ethiopia stands within the international community, what do you respond to that?
PM Meles:- I don't agree with that. These things have been discussed in great detail over the past few months within the movement. There may have been lack of clarity here and there and that the large extent has to blame on us the leaders and not explaining these issues in time and detail, so there has been any gap between the leadership and the rank and file. It is not that the rank and file is not able or willing to move alone. It is up to the leadership didn't fulfill its obligation towards that the rank and file in terms of explaining these issues in detail. ������
BBC:- Talking to people here in Addis, what they are saying is they want more, they want more democracy they want the real access to the benefit to the market economy, they feel that although it is written on paper these things the realization is somewhat imperfect. Would you agree with that? �
PM Meles:- They have desire for more? I would say welcome to the party. We need more. We need more in the sense of institutionalizing democracy, we need more in terms of making democracy relevant not only to the capital city but also to the villages of these country where 85% of the population live. We need more effective implementation of our economic reform in development strategies, so if people want more I think they have a right to demand more and I would all simply join them in wanting more. ���������
BBC:- Was greater democracy? You may actually find yourself in a situation one of these days where the people say we don't want you. Would you accept that? �

PM Meles:- Absolutely. That would be a bilateral achievement.

BBC:- �democratically?�������

PM Meles:- In a proper democratic process. That would signify that this democracy has been achieved.�����
BBC:- Prime Minister Meles Zenawi, thank you very much in deed. �