Remarks of Vice President Cheney and Senator Edwards In Vice Presidential Debate
October 5, 2004
Text of the debate is provided by the White House
MODERATOR: Good evening from Case Western Reserve University's Veale
Center, here in Cleveland, Ohio. I'm Gwen Ifill of the NewsHour and Washington
Week on PBS. And I welcome you to the first and the only vice presidential
debate between Vice President Dick Cheney, the Republican nominee, and Senate
John Edwards, the Democratic nominee. These debates are sponsored by the
Commission on Presidential Debates. Tonight's will last 90 minutes following
detailed rules of engagement worked out by representatives of the candidates.
I have agreed to enforce the rules they have devised for themselves to the
best of my ability. The questions tonight will be divided between foreign and
domestic policy, but the specific topics were chosen by me. The candidates have
not been told what they are.
The rules: For each question there can be only a two-minute response; a
90-second rebuttal, and at my discretion, a discussion extension of one minute.
A green light will come on when 30 seconds remain in any given answer, yellow at
15, red at five seconds, and then flashing red means time is up. There is also
a back-up buzzer system if needed. Candidates may not direct questions to one
another. There will be two-minute closing statements, but no opening
statements. There is an audience here in the hall. But they have been
instructed to remain silent throughout. The order of the first question was
determined by the candidates in advance. And the first one goes to Vice
President Cheney.
Vice President Cheney, there have been new developments in Iraq, especially
having to do with the administration's handling. Paul Bremer, the former head
of the Coalition Provisional Authority, gave a speech in which he said, we have
never had enough troops on the ground -- or "we never had enough troops on the
ground." Donald Rumsfeld said he has not seen any hard evidence of a link
between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein. Was this the fruit of a report that you
requested, that you received a week ago that showed there was no connection
between Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Saddam Hussein?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Gwen, I want to thank you and I want to thank the
folks here at Case Western Reserve for hosting us tonight. It's a very
important event, and they've done a superb job of putting it together.
It's important to look at all of our developments in Iraq within the
broader context of the global war on terror. And after 9/11, it became clear
that we had to do several things to have a successful strategy to win the global
war on terror, specifically that we had to go after the terrorists wherever we
might find them, that we also had to go after state sponsors of terror -- those
who might provide sanctuary or safe harbor for terror. And we also then,
finally, had to stand up democracies in their stead afterwards because that was
the only way to guarantee that these states would not again become safe harbors
for terror, for the development of deadly weapons.
Concern about Iraq specifically focused on the fact that Saddam Hussein had
been for years listed on the state sponsor of terror, that he had established
relationships with Abu Nidal, who operated out of Baghdad. He paid $25,000 to
the families of suicide bombers. And he had an established relationship with al
Qaeda, specifically look at George Tenet, the CIA Director's, testimony before
the Committee on Foreign Relations two years ago when he talked about the
10-year relationship.
The effort that we've mounted with respect to Iraq focused specifically on
the possibility that this was the most likely nexus between the terrorists and
weapons of mass destruction. The biggest threat we face today is the
possibility of terrorists smuggling a nuclear weapon or a biological agent into
one of our own cities and threatening the lives of hundreds of thousands of
Americans. What we did in Iraq was exactly the right thing to do. If I had it
to recommend all over again, I would recommend exactly the right -- same course
of action. The world is far safer today because Saddam Hussein is in jail. His
government is no longer in power. And we did exactly the right thing.
MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, you have 90 seconds to respond.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Thank you, Gwen, for moderating this debate. Thank you
to the folks of Case Western, and all the people in Ohio for having us here.
Mr. Vice President, you are still not being straight with the American
people. I mean, the reality you and George Bush continue to tell people, first,
that things are going well in Iraq. The American people don't need us to
explain this to them. They see it on their television every single day. We
lost more troops in September than we lost in August; lost more in August than
we lost in July; lost more in July than we lost in June.
The truth is our men and women in uniform have been heroic; our military
has done everything they've been asked to do. And it's not just me that sees
the mess in Iraq. There are Republican leaders like John McCain, like Richard
Lugar, like Chuck Hagel, who've said Iraq is a mess and it's getting worse. And
when they were asked why, Richard Lugar said, because of the incompetence of the
administration.
What Paul Bremer said yesterday is they didn't have enough troops to secure
the country. They also didn't have a plan to win the peace. They also didn't
put the alliances together to make this successful.
We need a fresh start. We need a President who will speed up the training
of the Iraqis, get more staff in for doing that. We need to speed up the
reconstruction so the Iraqis see some tangible benefit. We need a new President
who has the credibility, which John Kerry has, to bring others into this effort.
MODERATOR: Would you like 30 seconds to respond, Mr. Vice President?
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: I would. We've made significant progress in Iraq.
We've stood up a new government that's been in power now only 90 days. The
notion of additional troops is talked about frequently. But the point of
success in Iraq will be reached when we have turned governance over to the Iraqi
people, they've been able to establish a democratic government. They're well on
their way on their way to doing that. They'll have free elections next January
for the first time in history.
We also are actively rapidly training Iraqis to take on the security
responsibility. Those two steps are crucial to success in Iraq. They're well
in hand, well under way, and I'm confident that, in fact, we'll get the job
done.
MODERATOR: You have 30 seconds.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Yes. Mr. Vice President, there is no connection between
the attacks of September 11th and Saddam Hussein. The 9/11 Commission has said
it, your own Secretary of State has said it. And you've gone around the country
suggesting that there is some connection. There's not. And, in fact, the CIA
is now about to report that the connection between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein
is tenuous, at best. And, in fact, the Secretary of Defense said yesterday that
he knows of no hard evidence of the connection. We need to be straight with the
American people.
MODERATOR: Time for a new question, but the same topic, at this time, to
you, Senator Edwards. You and Senator Kerry have said that the war in Iraq was
the wrong war at the wrong time. Does that mean that if you had been President
and Vice President, that Saddam Hussein would still be in power?
SENATOR EDWARDS: Here's what it means, it means that Saddam Hussein needed
to be confronted. John Kerry and I have consistently said that. It's why we
voted for the resolution. But it also means it needed to be done the right way.
And doing it the right way meant that we were prepared, that we gave the weapons
inspectors time to find out what we now know, that, in fact, there were no
weapons of mass destruction. That we didn't take our eye off the ball, which
are al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, the people who attacked us on September the 11th.
Now, remember, we went into Afghanistan -- which, by the way, was the right
thing to do; that was the right decision. And our military preformed
terrifically there. But we had Osama bin Laden cornered at Tora Bora. We had
the 10th Mountain Division up in Uzbekistan available. We had the finest
military in the world on the ground, and what did we do? We turned -- this is
the man who masterminded the greatest mass murder and terrorist attack in
American history. And what did the administration decide to do? They gave the
responsibility of capturing and/or killing Saddam -- I mean, Osama bin Laden to
Afghan warlords who just a few weeks before had been working with Osama bin
Laden.
Our point in this is not complicated. We were attacked by al Qaeda and
Osama bin Laden. We went into Afghanistan and very quickly the administration
made a decision to divert attention from that, and instead began to plan for the
invasion of Iraq. And these connections -- and I want the American people to
hear this very clearly -- listen carefully to what the Vice President is saying,
because there is no connection between Saddam Hussein and the attacks of
September 11th, period. The 9/11 Commission has said that's true, Colin Powell
has said it's true, but the Vice President keeps suggesting that there is.
There is not, and in fact any connection with al Qaeda is tenuous at best.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, you have 90 seconds to respond.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: The Senator has got his facts wrong. I have not
suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11. But there's clearly an
established Iraqi track record with terror. And the point is that that's the
place where you're most likely to see the terrorists come together with weapons
of mass destruction, the deadly technologies that Saddam Hussein had developed
and used over the years.
Now, the fact of the matter is, the big difference here, Gwen, is that they
are not prepared to deal with states that sponsor terror. They've got a very
limited view about how to use U.S. military force to defend America. We heard
Senator Kerry say the other night that there ought to be some kind of a global
test before U.S. troops are deployed preemptively to protect the United States.
That's part of a track record that goes back to the 1970s when he ran for
Congress the first time and said troops should not be deployed without U.N.
approval; then in the mid-'80s he ran on the basis of cutting most of our major
defense programs. In 1991, he voted against Desert Storm. It's a consistent
pattern over time of always being on the wrong side of defense issues.
A little tough talk in the midst of a campaign, or as part of a
presidential debate, cannot obscure a record of 30 years of being on the wrong
side of defense issues, and they give absolutely no indication, based on that
record, of being willing to go forward and aggressively pursue the war on terror
with the kind of strategy that will work, that will defeat our enemies, and will
guarantee that the United States doesn't again get attacked by the likes of al
Qaeda.
MODERATOR: We will return to that topic, but first I want to ask you, for
two minutes, Senator -- Vice President Cheney, tonight we mentioned Afghanistan.
We believe that Osama bin Laden is hiding, perhaps, in a cave somewhere along
the Afghan-Pakistan border. If you get a second term, what is your plan to
capture him, and then to neutralize those who have sprung up to replace him?
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Gwen, we have -- we've never let up on Osama bin
Laden from day one. We've actively and aggressively pursued him. We've
captured or killed thousands of al Qaeda, various places around the world and
especially in Afghanistan. We'll continue to very aggressively pursue him and
I'm confident eventually we'll get him.
The key to success in Afghanistan has been, again, to go in and go after
the terrorists, which we've done, and also take down the Taliban regime, which
had allowed them to function there, in effect, sponsors, if you will, of the al
Qaeda organization.
John Edwards, two-and-a-half years ago, six months after we went into
Afghanistan, announced that it was chaotic, the situation was deteriorating, the
warlords were about to take over. Here we are two-and-a-half years later.
We're four days away from the democratic election, first one in history in
Afghanistan. We've got 10 million voters who've registered to vote, nearly half
of them women. That election will put in place a democratically elected
government that will take over next December. There's been enormous progress in
Afghanistan in exactly the right direction, in spite of what John Edwards said
two-and-a-half years ago. He just got it wrong.
Now, the fact is, as we go forward in Afghanistan, we will pursue Osama bin
Laden and the terrorists as long as necessary. We're standing up Afghan
security forces so they can take on responsibility for their own security.
We'll keep U.S. forces there -- we have about 16,000 there today -- as long as
necessary to assist the Afghans in terms of dealing with their security
situation. But they're making significant progress. We've got -- President
Karzai is in power. They have done wonders -- writing their own constitution
for the first time ever. Schools are open. Young girls are going to school.
Women are going to vote. Women are even eligible to run for office. This is
major, major progress. There will be democracy in Afghanistan. Make no doubt
about it, freedom is the best antidote to terror.
MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, you have 90 seconds to respond.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Someone did get it wrong, but it wasn't John Kerry and
John Edwards. They got it wrong. When we had Osama bin Laden cornered, they
left the job to the Afghan warlords. They then diverted their attention from
the very people who attacked us, who were at the center of the war on terror,
and so Osama bin Laden is still at large.
Now, I want to go back to something the Vice President said just a minute
ago, because these distortions are continuing. He said that -- made mention of
this global test. What John Kerry said is just as clear as day to anybody who
was listening. He said, we will -- we will find terrorists where they are and
kill them before they ever do harm to the American people, first. We will keep
this country safe. He defended this country as a young man. He will defend
this country as President of the United States.
He also said, very clearly, that he will never give any country veto power
over the security of the United States of America. Now, I know the Vice
President would like to pretend that wasn't said, and the President would, too.
But the reality is -- reality is, it was said.
Here's what's actually happened in Afghanistan, regardless of this rosy
scenario that they paint on Afghanistan, just like they do Iraq. What's
actually happened is, they're -- they're now providing 75 percent of the world's
opium. Not only are they providing 75 percent of the world's opium, large parts
of the country are under the control of drug lords and war lords. Big parts of
the country are still insecure. And the reality is, the part of Afghanistan,
Eastern Afghanistan where Osama bin Laden is, is one of the hardest places to
control, and the most insecure.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, 30 seconds.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: All right, Gwen. Twenty years ago we had a similar
situation in El Salvador. We had -- a guerrilla insurgency controlled roughly a
third of the country, 75,000 people dead, and we held free elections. I was
there as an observer, on behalf of the Congress. The human drive for freedom,
the determination of these people to vote was unbelievable. And as the
terrorists would come in and shoot up polling places, as soon as they left, the
voters would come back and get in line and would not be denied their right to
vote. And today El Salvador is a whale of a lot better because we held free
elections. The power of that concept is enormous, and it will apply in
Afghanistan and it will apply, as well, in Iraq.
SENATOR EDWARDS: The Vice President just said that we should focus on
state sponsors of terrorism. Iran has moved forward with its nuclear weapons
program. They are more dangerous today than they were four years ago. North
Korea has moved forward with their nuclear weapons program, gone from one to two
nuclear weapons to six to eight nuclear weapons. This Vice President has been
an advocate for over a decade for lifting sanctions against Iran, the largest
state sponsor of terrorism on the planet. It's a mistake. We should not only
not lift them, we should strengthen those sanctions.
MODERATOR: New question to you, Senator Edwards, but I don't want to let
go of the "global test" question first, because I want people to understand
exactly what it is, as you said, that Senator Kerry did say.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Yes, ma'am.
MODERATOR: He said, "You've got to do -- he was asked about preemptive
action at the last debate. He said, "You've got to do it in a way that passes
the test, that passes the global test, where your countrymen, your people
understand fully why you're doing what you're doing, and can prove to the world
that you did it for legitimate reasons." What is a global test if it's not a
global veto?
SENATOR EDWARDS: Well, let me say first, he said, in the same segment -- I
don't remember precisely where it was connected with what you just read, but he
said, point blank, we will never give anyone a veto over the security of the
United States of America. What he's saying is we're going to go back to the
proud tradition of the United States of America and Presidents of the United
States of America for the last 50 to 75 years.
First, we're going to actually tell the American people the truth. We're
going to tell them the truth about what's happening. We're not going to suggest
to them that things are going well in Iraq or anyplace else when, in fact,
they're not. We're going to make sure that the American people know the truth
about why we're using force and what the explanation for it is. And it's not
just the American people -- we're also going to make sure that we tell the world
the truth, because the reality is, for America to lead, for America to do what
it's done for 50 years -- before this President and Vice President came into
office -- it is critical that we be credible, it is critical that they believe
that when America takes action they can trust what we're doing, what we say,
what we say at the United Nations, what we say in direct conversations with
leaders of other world -- other countries -- they need to know that the
credibility of the United States is always good -- because they will not follow
us without that.
And, unfortunately, we're seeing the consequences of that right now. It's
one of the reasons that we're having so much difficulty getting others involved
in the effort in Iraq. You know, we've taken 90 percent of the coalition
casualties. American taxpayers have borne 90 percent of the costs of the effort
in Iraq. And we see the result of there not being a coalition -- the first Gulf
War cost America $5 billion. We're at $200 billion and counting. John Kerry
will never give control over the security of the United States of America to any
other country. We will not out-source our responsibility to keep this country
safe.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, you have 90 seconds to respond.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, Gwen, the 90-percent figure is just dead
wrong. When you include the Iraqi security forces that have suffered
casualties, as well as the allies, they've taken almost 50 percent of the
casualties in operations in Iraq, which leaves the U.S. with 50 percent, not 90
percent. With respect to the cost, it wasn't $200 billion. You probably
weren't there to vote for that, but the $120 billion is, in fact, what has been
allocated to Iraq. The rest of it is for Afghanistan and the global war on
terror.
The allies have stepped forward and agreed to reduce and forgive Iraqi debt
to the tune of nearly $80 billion, by one estimate, and that, plus $14 billion
they promised in terms of direct aid, puts the overall allied contribution
financially at about $95 billion -- not to the $120 billion we've got, but
better than 40 percent. So your facts are just wrong, Senator.
You also have a situation where you talk about credibility. It's awfully
hard to convey a sense of credibility to allies when you voted for the war and
then you declared, wrong war, wrong place, wrong time. You voted for the war,
and then you voted against supporting the troops when they needed the equipment,
the fuel, the spare parts and the ammunition and the body armor. You're not
credible on Iraq because of the enormous inconsistencies that John Kerry and you
have cited time after time after time during the course of the campaign.
Whatever the political pressures of the moment requires, that's where you're at.
But you've not been consistent, and there's no indication at all that John Kerry
has a conviction to successfully carry through on the war on terror.
MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, you have 30 seconds.
SENATOR EDWARDS: What the Vice President has just said is just a complete
distortion. The American people saw John Kerry on Thursday night. They don't
need the Vice President or the President to tell them what they saw. They saw a
man who was strong, who had conviction, who is resolute, who made it very clear
that he will do everything that has to be done to find terrorists, to keep the
American people safe. He laid out his plan for success in Iraq, made it clear
that we were committed to success in Iraq. We have to be, because we have
troops on the ground there, and because they've created a haven for terrorists.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, you have 30 seconds.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Your rhetoric, Senator, would be a lot more credible, if
there was a record to back it up. There isn't, and you cannot use talk tough
during the course of a 90 minute debate in a presidential campaign to obscure a
30-year record in the United States Senate and prior to that by John Kerry, who
has consistently come down on the wrong side of all the major defense issues
that he's faced as a public official.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, a new question for you. You have two
minutes to respond. When the President says that Senator Kerry is emboldening
enemies, and you say that we could get hit again if voters make the wrong choice
in November, are you saying that it would be a dangerous thing to have John
Kerry as President?
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: I'm saying specifically that I don't believe he has
the qualities we need in a Commander-in-Chief, because I don't think, based on
his record, that he would pursue the kind of aggressive policies that need to be
pursued if we're going to defeat these terrorists. We need to battle them
overseas so we don't have to battle them here at home.
I'm not challenging John Kerry's patriotism. I said in my acceptance
speech in New York City at the Republican convention that we respected his
service in Vietnam, and I got applause that. We've never criticized his
patriotism. What we question is his judgment. And his judgment is flawed, and
the record is there for anybody who wants to look at it.
In 1984, when he ran for the Senate, he opposed, or called for the
elimination of a great many major weapons systems that were crucial to winning
the Cold War and are important today to our overall forces. When Saddam Hussein
invaded Kuwait and occupied it in 1990 and '91, he stood up on the floor of the
Senate and voted against going in to liberate Kuwait and push Saddam Hussein
back to Iraq.
The problem we have is that if you look at his record, he doesn't display
the qualities of somebody who has conviction. And with respect to this
particular operation, we've seen a situation in which first they voted to commit
the troops, to send them to war, John Edwards and John Kerry. Then they came
back, and when the question was whether or not you provide them with the
resources they needed, body armor, spare parts, ammunition, they voted against
it.
I couldn't figure out why that happened, initially, and then I looked and
figured out that what was happening was Howard Dean was making major progress in
the Democratic primaries, running away with the primaries based on an anti-war
record. So they, in effect, decided they would cast an anti-war vote, and they
voted against the troops. Now, if they couldn't stand up to the pressures that
Howard Dean represented, how can we expect them to stand up to al Qaeda?
MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, you have 90 seconds to respond.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Thank you. One thing that's very clear is that a long
resume does not equal good judgment. I mean, we've seen over and over and over
the misjudgments made by this administration. I want to go back to what this --
what the Vice President just said, because it's a continuation of the things
he's been doing, unfortunately, on the campaign trail; it's a continuation of
what he began his first answer with tonight.
John Kerry has voted for the biggest military appropriations bill in the
country's history. John Kerry has voted for the biggest intelligence
appropriations in the country's history. This Vice President, when he was
Secretary of Defense, cut over 80 weapons systems, including the very ones he's
criticizing John Kerry for voting against. These are weapons systems, a big
chunk of which the Vice President, himself, suggested we get rid of after the
Cold War.
The reality is that John Kerry has consistently supported the very men that
he served with in Vietnam and led. On the $87 billion, it was clear at the time
of that vote that they had no plan to win the peace. We're seeing the
consequences of that every day on the ground right now. We stood up and said,
for our troops we must have a plan to win the peace. We also thought it was
wrong to have a $20 billion fund, out of which $7.5 billion was going to go
toward a no-bid contract for Halliburton, the Vice President's former company.
It was wrong then; it's wrong now.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, you have 30 seconds.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, Gwen, I think the record speaks for itself.
These are two individuals who have been for the war when the headlines were
good, and against it when their poll ratings were bad. We have not seen the
kind of consistency that the Commander-in-Chief has to have in order to be a
leader in wartime, and in order to be able to see the strategy through to
victory. If we want to win the war on terror, it seems to me it's pretty clear,
the choice is George Bush, not John Kerry.
MODERATOR: And 30 seconds.
SENATOR EDWARDS: John Kerry has been absolutely clear and consistent from
the beginning that we must stay focused on the people who attacked us, that
Saddam Hussein was a threat that needed to be addressed directly, that the
weapons inspectors needed to have time to do their job. Had they had time to do
their job, they would have discovered what we now know, that, in fact, Saddam
Hussein had no weapons, that, in fact, Saddam Hussein has no connection with
9/11, that, in fact, Saddam Hussein has little or no connection with al Qaeda.
MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, new question to you, and you have two minutes
to respond. Part of what you have said, and Senator Kerry has said, that you're
going to do in order to get us out of the problems in Iraq is to
internationalize the effort. Yet, French and German officials have both said
they have no intention, even if John Kerry is elected of sending any troops into
Iraq for any peacekeeping effort. Does that make your effort, or you plan to
internationalize this effort seem kind of naive?
SENATOR EDWARDS: Well, let's start with what we know. What we know is
that the President and the Vice President have not done the work to build the
coalition that we need -- so dramatically different than the first Gulf War. We
know that they haven't done it, and we know they can't do it. They didn't, by
the way, just reject the allies going to lead up to the war; they also rejected
them in the effort to do the reconstruction in Iraq. And that has consequences.
What we believe is, as part of our entire plan for Iraq -- and we have a
plan for Iraq. They have a plan for Iraq, too, more of the same. We have a
plan for success, and that plan includes speeding up the training of a military.
We have less than half of the staff that we need there to complete that
training. Second, make sure that the reconstruction is sped up in a way that
the Iraqis see some tangible benefit for what's happening.
And by the way, if we need to, we can take Iraqis out of Iraq to train
them. It is not secure enough. It's so dangerous on the ground that they can't
be trained there, we can take them out of Iraq for purposes of training. We
should do whatever has to be done to train the Iraqis and to speed up that
process.
That works in conjunction with making sure the elections take place on
time. Right now the United Nations, which is responsible for the elections in
January, has about 35 people there. Now, that's compared with a much smaller
country, like East Timor, where they had over 200 people on the ground. You
need more than 35 people to hold an election in Cleveland, much less in Iraq.
And we -- and they keep saying the election is on schedule, this is going to
happen. The reality is we need a new President with credibility with the rest
of the world, and who has a real plan for success.
Success breeds contribution, breeds joining the
coalition. Not only that, I want to go back to what the Vice President said.
He attacks us about the troops? They sent 40,000 American troops into Iraq
without the body armor they needed. They sent them without the armored vehicles
they needed. While they were on the ground fighting, they lobbied the Congress
to cut their combat pay. This is the height of hypocrisy.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, you have 90 seconds.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, Gwen, it's hard to know where to start,
there's so many inaccuracies there.
The fact of the matter is the troops wouldn't have what they have today if
you guys had had your way. When you talk about internationalizing the effort,
they don't have a plan, basically -- it's an echo. You made the comment that
the Gulf War coalition in '91 was far stronger than this. No, we had 34
countries then, we've got 30 today. We've got troops beside us.
It's hard, after John Kerry referred to our allies as a "coalition of the
coerced and the bribed" to go out and persuade people to send troops and to
participate in this process. You end up with a situation in which -- talk about
demeaning, in effect, you demean the sacrifice of our allies when you say it's
wrong war, wrong place, wrong time, oh, by the way, send troops. It makes no
sense at all. It's totally inconsistent. There isn't a plan there.
Our most important ally in the war on terror in Iraq, specifically, is
Prime Minister Allawi. He came recently and addressed a joint session of
Congress that I presided over, with the Speaker of the House, and John Kerry
rushed out immediately after his speech was over with -- where he came and he
thanked America for our contributions and our sacrifice and pledged to hold his
election in January -- went out and demeaned him, criticized him, challenged his
credibility. That is not the way to win friends and allies. You're never going
to add to the coalition with that kind of attitude.
MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, 30 seconds.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Thank you. The Vice President suggests that we have the
same number of countries involved now that we had in the first Gulf War. The
first Gulf War cost the American people $5 billion. And regardless of what the
Vice President says, we're at $200 billion and counting. Not only that, 90
percent of the coalition casualties, Mr. Vice President -- the coalition
casualties -- are American casualties. Ninety percent of the cost of this
effort are being borne by American taxpayers. It is the direct result of the
failures of this administration.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Classic example, he won't count the sacrifice and
the contribution of our Iraqi allies. It's their country, they're in the fight,
they're increasingly the ones out there putting their necks on the line to take
back their country from the terrorists and the old regime elements that are
still left. They're doing a superb job, and for you to demean their sacrifice,
that strikes me as --
SENATOR EDWARDS: Oh, I'm not --
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: -- beyond the pale. It is, indeed. You suggested
that somehow --
SENATOR EDWARDS: No, sir --
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: -- they shouldn't count, because you want to be
able to say that the Americans are taking 90 percent of the sacrifice. You
cannot succeed in this effort if you're not willing to recognize the enormous
contribution the Iraqis are increasingly making to their own future. We'll win
when they take on responsibility for governance, which they're doing; and when
they take on responsibility for their own security, which they increasingly are
doing.
MODERATOR: New question, similar topic, because I want to circle back to a
question which I'm not quite certain we got an answer to, but I will direct it
to you first, Senator Edwards, which is the question of American intelligence.
If the FSC report that we read about today is true, and if Vice President Cheney
ordered it and asked about this, do you think that in the future that your
administration, or the Bush administration, would have sufficient and accurate
enough intelligence to be able to make decisions about where to go next?
SENATOR EDWARDS: Well, let me speak first to what the Vice President just
said, and then I'll answer that question.
This, unfortunately, what the Vice President is telling people is
inconsistent with everything they see every, single day. It's a continuation of
where there's a strong connection between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein. It's not
true. It's a continuation of at least insinuating that there's some connection
between 9/11 and Saddam Hussein. It's not true. It's saying to the American
people, as the President said last Thursday, an the Vice President continues to
say tonight, that things are going well in Iraq, contrary to what people who
have been there have seen, including Republican leaders, contrary to what
everyone in America sees on their television every day. Americans are being
kidnapped, people are being beheaded, parts of the country under the control of
insurgents, even today under the control of the insurgents. The Vice President
has still made -- not said anything about what Mr. Bremer said about the failure
to have adequate troops, the failure to be able to secure the country in the
short-term. You know -- remember, shock and awe? Look at where we are now.
And it's a direct result of the failure to plan, the failure to have others
involved in this effort. This is not an accident.
Now, let me go back to your question. If we want to do the things that
need to be done to keep this country safe, we can't be dragged kicking and
screaming to it. One thing that everybody does agree on is that 9/11 did change
things. But what's happened is, this administration opposed the creation of a
9/11 Commission to find out why it happened and what we needed to do. They
opposed the creation of a department of homeland security, and then they were
for it. We can't react that way. We must be more aggressive. When John Kerry
is President of the United States, we are committed to immediately implementing
all of the reforms suggested by the 9/11 Commission, so that we have the
information we need to find terrorists and crush them before they hurt us.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Gwen, the story that appeared today about this
report is one I asked for. I ask an awful lot of questions. That's part of my
job as Vice President. A CIA spokesman was quoted in that story as saying
they'd not yet reached the bottom line and there's still debate over this
question of the relationship between Zarqawi and Saddam Hussein. The report
also points out that at one point some of Zarqawi's people were arrested, Saddam
personally intervened to have them released, supposedly at the request of
Zarqawi.
But let's look at what we know about Mr. Zarqawi. We know he was running a
terrorist camp, training terrorists in Afghanistan prior to 9/11. We know that
when we went into Afghanistan that he then migrated to Baghdad. He set up shop
in Baghdad, where he oversaw the poisons facility up at Kurmal, where the
terrorists were developing ricin and other deadly substances to use. We know
he's still in Baghdad today. He is responsible for most of the major car
bombings that have killed or maimed thousands of people. He's the one you will
see on the evening news beheading hostages. He is, without question, a bad guy.
He is, without question, a terrorist. He was, in fact, in Baghdad before the
war, and he's in Baghdad now after the war. The fact of the matter is that this
is exactly the kind of track record we've seen over the years. We have to deal
with Zarqawi by taking him out, and that's exactly what we'll do.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, in June of 2000, when you were still CEO of
Halliburton, you said that U.S. businesses should be allowed to do business with
Iran, because, "Unilateral sanctions almost never work." After four years as
Vice President now, and with Iran having been declared by your administration as
part of the "axis of evil," do you think -- do you still believe that we should
lift sanctions on Iran?
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: No, I do not. And, Gwen, at the time, I was
talking specifically about this question of unilateral sanctions. What happens
when we impose unilateral sanctions is, unless there's a collective effort, then
other people move in and take advantage of the situation and you don't have any
impact, except to penalize American companies.
We've got sanctions on Iran now, we may well want to go to the U.N.
Security Council and ask for even tougher sanctions if they don't live up to
their obligations under the initial -- the International Atomic Energy Agency, a
non-proliferation treaty.
We've dealt with Iran differently than we have Iraq, partly because Iran
has not yet, as Iraq did, violated 12 years of resolutions by the U.N. Security
Council. We're working with the Brits and the Germans and the French, who have
been negotiating with the Iranians. We recently were actively involved in
meeting with the Board of Governors of the International Atomic Energy Agency.
And as I say, there will be a follow-up meeting in November, to determine
whether or not Iran's living up to their commitments and obligations, and if
they aren't, my guess is then the Board of Governors will recommend sending the
whole matter to the United Nations Security Council for the application of
international sanctions, which I think would be exactly the right way to go.
We're addressing North Korea on a similar basis, working with the Chinese,
the South Koreans, the Japanese and others to try to bring them around. One of
the great byproducts, for example, of what we did in Iraq and Afghanistan is
that five days after we captured Saddam Hussein, Moammar Ghadafi, in Libya, came
forward and announced that he was going to surrender all of his nuclear
materials to the United States, which he has done. This was one of the biggest
sources of proliferation in the world today, in terms of the threat that was
represented by that. The suppliers network that provided that, headed by Mr.
A.Q. Khan, has been shut down. We've made major progress in dealing here with a
major issue with respect to nuclear proliferation and we'll continue to press
very hard on the North Koreans and the Iranians as well.
MODERATOR: Senator Edwards.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Well, the Vice President talks about there being a member
-- or someone associated with al Qaeda in Iraq. There are 60 countries who have
members of al Qaeda in them. How many of those countries are we going to
invade? Not only that, he talks about Iran. The reality about Iran is Iran has
moved forward with their nuclear weapons program on their watch. They ceded
responsibility to dealing with it to the Europeans. Now, the Vice President, as
you pointed out, spoke out loudly for lifting the sanctions on Iraq. John Kerry
and I believe we need to strengthen the sanctions on Iraq, including closing the
loophole that allows companies to use subsidiaries, offshore subsidiaries, to do
business with Iran.
I mentioned Halliburton a few minutes ago in connection with the $87
billion and you raised it in this question. This is relevant, because he was
pushing for sanctions -- lifting sanctions when he was CEO of Halliburton.
Here's why we didn't think Halliburton should have a no-bid contract. While he
was CEO of Halliburton, they paid millions of dollars in fines for providing
false information on their company, just like Enron and Ken Lay. They did
business with Libya and Iran, two sworn enemies of the United States. They're
now under investigation for having bribed foreign officials during that period
of time. Not only that, they've gotten a $7.5 billion no-bid contract in Iraq,
and instead of part of their money being withheld, which is the way it's
normally done because they're under investigation, they've continued to get
their money.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: I can respond, Gwen, but it's going to take more
than 30 seconds.
MODERATOR: Well, that's all you've got. (Laughter.)
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, the reason they keep mentioning Halliburton
is because they're trying to throw up a smoke screen. They know the charges are
false. They know if you go, for example, to factcheck.com, an independent
website sponsored by the University of Pennsylvania, you can get the specific
details, with respect to Halliburton.
It's an effort that they've made repeatedly to try to confuse the voters
and to raise questions, but there's no substance to the charges.
MODERATOR: Thirty seconds.
SENATOR EDWARDS: These are the facts. The facts are, the Vice President's
company that he was CEO of, that did business with sworn enemies of the United
States, paid millions of dollars in fines for providing false financial
information, is under investigation for bribing foreign officials, the same
company that got a $7.5 billion no-bid contract. The rule is that part of their
money is supposed to be withheld when they're under investigation, as they are
now, for having overcharged the American taxpayer. But they're getting every
dime of their money. I'm happy to let voters make their own decision about
this.
MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, as we wrap up the foreign policy part of this,
I do want to talk to you about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Today, a
senior member of Islamic Jihad was killed in Gaza. There have been suicide
bombings, targeted assassinations, mortar attacks, all of this continuing at a
time when the United States seems absent in the peace-making process. What
would your administration do? First of all, do you agree that the United States
is absent, maybe you don't? But what would your administration do to try to
resolve that conflict?
SENATOR EDWARDS: Well, first of all, I do agree that we've been largely
absent, not entirely absent, but largely absent from the peace-making process
over the last four years. And let me just -- let me just say a couple
preliminary things, and then I'll talk about where we are now.
First, the Israeli people not only have the right to defend themselves,
they should defend themselves. They have an obligation to defend themselves.
Now, if I can just, for a moment, tell you a personal story. I was in Jerusalem
a couple years ago -- actually, three years ago, in August of 2001, staying at
the King David Hotel. We left in the morning, headed to the airport to leave,
and later in the day, I found out that that same day, not far from where we were
-- we were staying, the Sbarro Pizzeria was hit by a suicide bomber in
Jerusalem. Fifteen people were killed; six children were killed. What are the
Israeli people supposed to do? How can they continue to watch Israeli children
killed by suicide bombers, killed by terrorists? They have not only the right,
but the obligation to defend themselves.
Now, we know that the Prime Minister has made a decision, an historic
decision, to unilaterally withdraw from Gaza. It's important for America to
participate in helping with that process. Now, if Gaza is being used as a
platform for attacking the Israeli people, that has to be stopped, and Israel
has a right to defend itself. They don't have a partner for peace right now.
They certainly don't have a partner in Arafat, and they need a legitimate
partner for peace.
And I might add, it is very important for America to -- America to crack
down on the Saudis who have not had a public prosecution for financing terrorism
since 9/11, and it's important for America to confront the situation in Iran,
because Iran is an enormous threat to Israel and the Israeli people.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, 90 seconds.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: I want to go back to the last comment, and then
I'll come back to Israel-Palestine. The reason they keep trying to attack
Halliburton is because they want to obscure their own record. And Senator,
frankly, you have a record in the Senate that's not very distinguished. You've
missed 33 out of 36 meetings of the Judiciary Committee, almost 70 percent of
the meetings of the Intelligence Committee. You've missed a lot of key votes on
tax policy, on energy, on Medicare reform. You're hometown newspaper has taken
to calling you "Senator Gone." You've got one of the worst attendance records
in the United States Senate.
Now, in my capacity as Vice President, I am the President of the Senate,
the presiding officer. I'm up in the Senate most Tuesdays when they're in
session. The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage
tonight.
With respect to Israel and Palestine, Gwen, the suicide bombers, in part,
were generated by Saddam Hussein, who paid $25,000 to the families of suicide
bombers. I personally think one of the reasons that we don't have as many
suicide attacks today in Israel as we have in the past is because Saddam's no
longer in business. We've been strong supporters of Israel. The President
stepped forward and put in place a policy, basically, that said we will support
the establishment of two states, the first President ever to say we'll establish
and support a Palestinian state next door to Israelis.
But first, there has to be an interlocutor you can trust and deal with and
we won't have that -- we don't have it now under Yasser Arafat. There has to be
reform in the Palestinian system.
MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, it's your turn to use 30 seconds for a
complicated response.
SENATOR EDWARDS: That was a complete distortion of my record; I know that
will come as a shock.
The Vice President, I'm surprised to hear him talk about records, when he
was one of 435 members of the United States House, he was one of 10 to vote
against Head Start, one of four to vote against banning plastic weapons that can
pass through metal detectors. He voted against the Department of Education. He
voted against funding for Meals on Wheels for seniors. He voted against a
holiday for Martin Luther King. He voted against a resolution calling for the
release of Nelson Mandela in South Africa. It's amazing to hear him criticize
either my record or John Kerry's.
MODERATOR: Thirty seconds.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Oh, I think his record speaks for itself, and
frankly, it's not very distinguished.
MODERATOR: In that case, we'll move on to domestic matters, and this
question, I believe, goes to Senator -- to Vice President Cheney. The Census
Bureau --
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Goes to Senator Edwards.
MODERATOR: It goes to Senator -- it's to you, I just asked him about
Israel, even though we didn't actually talk about it much.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: I concede the point. (Laughter.)
SENATOR EDWARDS: No, I did talk about it, Israel. He's the one who didn't
talk about it.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, the Census Bureau ranks Cleveland as the
biggest poor city in the country, 31 percent jobless rate. You two gentlemen
are pretty well off; you did well for yourselves in the private sector. What
can you tell the people of Cleveland, or people of cities like Cleveland, that
your administration will do to better their lives?
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, Gwen, there are several things that I think
need to be done, and are being done. We've, of course, been through a difficult
recession and then the aftermath of 9/11 where we lost over a million jobs after
that attack. We think the key is to address some basic fundamental issues that
the President is already working on. I think probably the most successful thing
we can do with respect to ending poverty is to get people jobs. There is no
better antidote to poverty than a good, well-paying job that allows somebody to
take care of their own family.
To do that, we have to make America the best place in the world to do
business. And that means we've got to deal effectively with tax policy; we've
got to reduce the litigation costs that are built into our society; we've got to
provide adequate medical care and make certain that we can, in fact, create the
opportunities that are vital to that process.
I zero in, in particular, on education. I think the most important thing
we can do is have a first-class public school system. I'm a product of public
schools, and the President -- his first legislative priority was the No Child
Left Behind Act, was the first piece of legislation we introduced. We got it
passed that first summer on a bipartisan basis. We even had Ted Kennedy on
board for the effort. And it does several things. It establishes high
standards. It, at the same time, sets up a system of testing with respect to
our school system so we can establish accountability for parents and make
certain that they understand how well their students are doing. And they have
the opportunity to move students out of poorly performing schools to good
schools.
It strikes me that that is absolutely the heart of what needs to be done
from the standpoint of education. It's also important, as we go forward in the
next term, we want to be able to take what we've done for elementary education
and move it into the secondary education. It's working. We've seen reports now
of a reduction in the achievement gap between the majority students and minority
students. We're making significant progress.
MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, you have 90 seconds.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Your question was about jobs?
MODERATOR: It was about jobs and it was about poverty.
SENATOR EDWARDS: I thought it was about jobs and poverty. I hope we get a
chance to talk about education, but that's what the Vice President talked about.
Here's what's happened: In the time that they have been in office, in the last
four years, 1.6 million private sector jobs have been lost; 2.7 million
manufacturing jobs have been lost. And it's had real consequences in places
like Cleveland. Cleveland is a wonderful, distinguished city that's done a lot
of great things, but it has the highest poverty rate in the country. One out of
almost two children in Cleveland are now living in poverty.
During the time that the Vice President and the President has been in
office, 4 million more Americans have fallen into poverty. And one of the most
striking and startling things, is they are the first presidency in 70 years --
and I'm talking Democrats, Republicans, Presidents who led us through world war,
through the Korean War, the Vietnam War, Cold War, every one of them created
jobs until this President. We have to do better. We have a plan. We're going
to get rid of tax -- by the way, they're for outsourcing jobs. I want to make
sure people hear that. It's a fundamental difference with us. The
administration says over and over that the outsourcing of millions of American
jobs is good. We're against it. We want to get rid of tax cuts for companies
sending jobs overseas. We want to balance this budget, get back to fiscal
responsibility, and we want to invest in the creative, innovative jobs of the
future.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Gwen, we've got 111 million American taxpayers that
have benefited from our income tax cuts. We've got 33 million students who
benefited from No Child Left Behind. We've got 40 million seniors who benefited
from the reform of the Medicare system. The Democrats promised prescription
drug benefits. For years they've run on that platform. They never got it done.
The President got it done. We also dropped 5 million people totally off the
federal income tax rolls, so they no longer have to pay any federal income tax
at all.
So the story, I think, is a good one. And the data he's using is old data.
That's from 2003. It doesn't include any of the gains that we've made in the
last year, as we've added 1.7 million jobs to the economy.
MODERATOR: Thirty seconds.
SENATOR EDWARDS: The Vice President and President alike talk about their
experience on the campaign trail. Millions of people have lost their jobs.
Millions have fallen into poverty. Family incomes are down, where the cost of
everything is going up. Medical costs up the highest they've ever been over the
last four years. We have this mess in Iraq. Mr. Vice President, I don't think
the country can take four more years of this kind of experience.
MODERATOR: This next question goes to you, Senator Edwards. Senator Kerry
said in a recent interview that he absolutely will not raise taxes on anyone
under -- who earns under $200,000 a year. How can he guarantee that and also
cut the deficit in half, as he's promised?
SENATOR EDWARDS: Because we will do what they've not done. If you look at
over the last four years, we have gone from a $5 trillion projected surplus,
when George Bush took office, to a $3 trillion projected deficit. They promised
they were going to put $2 trillion of the surplus aside from Social Security --
not done. Not only that, it's the biggest fiscal turnaround in American
history. And there's no end in sight. The Washington Post just reported they
have several trillion dollars of additional tax cuts in spending -- no
suggestion of what they're going to do about it. John Kerry and I believe we
have a moral responsibility not to leave trillions of dollars of debt to our
children and our grandchildren.
So here's what we're going to do, to answer your question. To pay for the
things that we believe need to be done -- and I hope to get the chance to talk
about health care and also about education, because we have plans on both those
subjects -- what we're going to do is roll back tax cuts -- and I want everyone
to hear this, because there have been exaggerations made on the campaign trail
-- roll back tax cuts for people who make over $200,000 a year. We will do
that. We want to keep the tax cuts that are in place for people who make less
than $200,000, and give additional tax cuts to those middle class families --
tax cuts for health care, tax cuts to help families pay for their college
tuition, tax cuts for child care. These families are struggling and hurting and
they need more tax relief, not less tax relief.
But to help get us back on the path to a balanced budget, we also want to
get rid of some of the bureaucratic spending in Washington. One of the amazing
things that's happened is they've actually layered on more supervisory people,
people at the supervisory level, in this government.
We also want to close some corporate loopholes. Now, I want to be honest
with people. We can't eliminate this deficit. People have heard that over and
over and over in four years. We cannot do it. We are in too deep of a hole.
But we can cut the deficit in half, and we can move this country back on a path
to fiscal responsibility.
MODERATOR: You have 90 seconds, Mr. Vice President.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Gwen, the Kerry record on taxes is one basically of
voting for a large number of tax increases, 98 times in the United States
Senate. There's a fundamental philosophical difference here between the
President and myself, who believe that we ought to let the American people keep
more of what they earn, and we ought to empower them to have more control over
their own lives. I think the Kerry-Edwards approach basically is to raise taxes
and to give government more control over the lives of individual citizens. We
think that's the wrong way to go. There's a fundamental difference of opinion
here.
They talk about the top bracket and going after only those people in the
top bracket. Well, the fact of the matter is, a great many of our small
businesses pay taxes under the personal income taxes rather than the corporate
rate, and about 900,000 small businesses will be hit if you do, in fact, do what
they want to do with the top bracket. That's not smart because seven out of ten
new jobs in America are created by small businesses. You do not want to tax
them, bad idea to increase the burden on those folks.
The Senator himself said, during the course of the primaries, that the
Kerry plan would drive us deeper into deficit. Those were the Senator's words
about his running mate. The fact of the matter is, the President and I will go
forward to make the tax cuts permanent. That's good policy. That's what we
ought to do, but with fiscal restraint, we'll also drive the deficit down 50
percent in the course of the next five years.
MODERATOR: Thirty seconds, Senator Edwards.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Thank you. We have committed to cutting back anything in
our programs that need to be cut back to get us back on a path to fiscal
responsibility. John Kerry, Mr. Vice President, has voted, voted or
cosponsored, over 600 times, tax cuts for the American people, over 600 times.
And there is a philosophical difference between us and them. We are for more
tax cuts for the middle class than they're for, have been for the last four
years, but we are not for more tax cuts for multimillionaires. They are. And
it is a fundamental difference in what we think needs to be done in this
country.
MODERATOR: You have 30 seconds, Mr. Vice President.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Yesterday, the President signed an extension of the
middle-class tax cuts -- the 10-percent bracket, the marriage penalty relief,
and the increase in the child tax credit. Senators Kerry and Edwards weren't
even there to vote for it when it came to final passage.
MODERATOR: Next question goes to you, Mr. Vice President. I want to read
something you said four years ago at this very setting: Freedom means freedom
for everybody. You said it again recently when you were asked about legalizing
same-sex unions and you used your family as an experience, your family
experience as a context for your remarks. Can you describe, then, your
administration's support for a constitutional ban on same-sex unions?
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Gwen, you're right. Four years ago in this debate,
the subject came up, and I said then, and believe today, that freedom does mean
freedom for everybody. People ought to be free to choose any arrangement they
want. It's really no one else's business.
That's a separate question from the issue of whether not government should
sanction or approve or give some sort of authorization, if you will, to these
relationships. Traditionally, that's been an issue for the states. States have
regulated marriage, if you will. That would be my preference.
In effect, what's happened is that in recent months, especially in
Massachusetts, but also in California, but in Massachusetts we had the
Massachusetts Supreme Court direct the state of -- the legislature in
Massachusetts to modify their constitution to allow gay marriage. And the fact
is that the President felt that it was important to make it clear that that's
the wrong way to go, as far as he's concerned. Now, he sets policy for this
administration, and I support the President.
MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, 90 seconds.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Yes. Let me say first, on an issue that the Vice
President said in his last answer, before we got to this question, talking about
tax policy, the country needs to know that under what they have put in place,
and want to put in place, they -- millionaires sitting by their swimming pool,
collecting their statement to see how much money their making, make their money
from dividends, pays a lower tax rate than the men and women who are receiving
paychecks for serving on the ground in Iraq.
Now, they may think that's right. John Kerry and I do not. We don't just
value wealth, which they do. We value work in this country. And it is a
fundamental value difference between them and us.
Now, as to this question. Let me say first that I think the Vice President
and his wife love their daughter. I think they love her very much. And you
can't have anything but respect for the fact that they're willing to talk about
the fact that they have a gay daughter, the fact that they embrace her. It's a
wonderful thing. And there are millions of parents like that who love their
children, who want their children to be happy. And I believe that marriage is
between a man and a woman, and so does John Kerry.
I also believe there should be partnership benefits for gay and lesbian
couples in long-term, committed relationships. But we should not use the
Constitution to divide this country. No state for the last 200 years has ever
had to recognize another state's marriage. This is using the Constitution as a
political tool, and it's wrong.
MODERATOR: New question, but same subject. As the Vice President
mentioned, John Kerry comes from the state of Massachusetts which has taken as
big a step as any state in the union to legalize gay marriage. Yet both you and
Senator Kerry say you oppose it. Are you trying to have it both ways?
SENATOR EDWARDS: No, I think we've both said the same thing all along. We
both believe that -- this goes onto the end of what I just talked about -- we
both believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. But we also believe
that gay and lesbians, and gay and lesbian couples, those who have been in
long-term relationships, deserve to be treated respectfully, they deserve to
have benefits -- for example, a gay couple now has a very difficult time, one,
visiting the other when they're in the hospital; or, for example, if, heaven
forbid, one of them were to pass away, they have trouble even arranging the
funeral. Those are not the kind of things that John Kerry and I believe in and
I suspect the Vice President, himself, does not believe in that.
But we don't -- we do believe that marriage should be between a man and a
woman. And I want to go back, if I can, go back to the question you just asked,
which is this constitutional amendment. I want to make sure people understand
that the President is proposing a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage
-- that is completely unnecessary. Under the law of this country for the last
200 years, no state has been required to recognize another state's marriage.
Let me just be simple about this. My state of North Carolina would not be
required to recognize a marriage from Massachusetts, which you just asked about.
There is absolutely no purpose in the law and in reality for this amendment.
It's nothing but a political tool, and it's being used in an effort to divide
this country on an issue that we should not be dividing America on.
We ought to be talking about issues like health care and jobs and what's
happening in Iraq, not using an issue that divides this country in a way that's
solely for political purpose. It's wrong.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, you have 90 seconds.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, Gwen, let me simply thank the Senator for the
kind words he said about my family and our daughter. I appreciate that, very
much.
MODERATOR: That's it?
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: That's it.
MODERATOR: Okay, then we'll move on to the next question. This one is for
you, Mr. Vice President. President Bush has derided John Kerry for putting a
trial lawyer on the ticket. You, yourself, have said that lawsuits are partly
to blame for higher medical costs. Are you willing to say that John Edwards,
sitting here, has been part of the problem? (Laughter.)
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, Gwen --
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President. (Laughter.)
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: I -- first of all, I'm not familiar with his cases.
My concern is specifically with what's happened to our medical care system
because of rising malpractice insurance rates, because we've failed to
adequately reform our medical liability structure.
I was in New Mexico the other day. I met with a group of OB/GYN docs. And
they were deeply concerned because they were fearful that there would be another
increase in malpractice insurance rates as a result of what they believe are
frivolous lawsuits, and that that would put them out of business.
One doctor indicated that her rates have gone up so much that she's now to
the point where she is screening patients. She won't take high-risk patients
anymore because of the danger that that will generate a lawsuit, and a lawsuit
will put her out of business. This has had a devastating impact on a lot of
communities. My home state of Wyoming, we've lost the top insurer, malpractice
insurance in the state. The rates for a general practitioner have gone from
$40,000 a year to $100,000 a year for an insurance policy. We think this has a
devastating impact on the quality of health care. As I say, high-risk patients
don't get covered anymore. We've lost one out of 11 OB/GYN practitioners in the
country. We think it can be fixed, needs to be fixed.
Now, specifically, what we need to do is cap non-economic damages, and we
also think you need to limit the awards that the trial attorneys take out of all
of this. Over 50 percent of the settlements go to attorneys and for
administrative overhead.
We passed medical liability reform through the House of Representatives.
It has been blocked in the Senate. Senator Kerry has voted 10 times against
medical liability reform, and I don't believe Senator Edwards supports it either
-- not the kind that would be meaningful.
MODERATOR: Senator Edwards?
SENATOR EDWARDS: Yes. Well, let me say, first of all, I'm proud of the
work I did on behalf of kids and families against big insurance companies, big
drug companies, and big HMOs. We do have too many lawsuits, and the reality is
there's something that we can do about it. John Kerry and I have a plan to do
something about it. We want to put more responsibility on the lawyers to
require before a case of malpractice, which the Vice President just spoke about,
have the case reviewed by independent experts who determine the case is serious
and meritorious before it can be filed; hold the lawyers responsible for that,
to certify that, and hold the lawyer financially responsible if they don't do
it; have a three strikes and you're out rule so that a lawyer who files three of
these cases without meeting this requirement loses their right to file these
cases.
That way we keep the cases out of the system that don't belong in the
system. They talk about frivolous cases -- we believe cases that don't belong
in the system should never be in the system. But we don't believe that we
should take away the rights of people like Valerie Lakey, who is a young girl
who I represented, five years old, severely injured for life on a defective
swimming pool drain cover. It turns out the company knew of 12 other children
who had either been killed or severely injured by the same problem. They hid
it. They didn't tell anybody. They could fixed it with a two-cent screw.
That's wrong. John Kerry and I are always going to stand with the Valerie
Lakeys of the world, and not with the insurance companies.
MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, new question to you, same topic. Do you feel
personally attacked when Vice President Cheney talks about liability reform and
tort reform, and the President talks about having a trial lawyer on the ticket?
SENATOR EDWARDS: Am I personally attacked? (Laughter.) I think -- I
think the truth is that what they're doing is talking about an issue that really
doesn't have a great deal with what's happening with medical costs in this
country, which I think is a very serious issue. And I will be the first to say
what the Vice President described a few minutes ago -- problems with malpractice
claims -- that's true, it's real, it's very real. I mean, what doctors talk
about is very serious and they're getting squeezed from both sides, because they
have trouble getting reimbursed, first of all, for the care that they provide
--from the government or from health care provider -- I mean health care
companies. And on the flip side, their malpractice costs are going up. That's
very real, which is why we have proposed a plan to keep cases out of the system
that don't belong there.
But it's very important to put this in context. Because in context,
everything they're proposing -- according to the bipartisan Congressional Budget
Office -- amounts to about half of one percent of health care costs in this
country -- half of one percent.
We have double digit inflation in health care costs. We've seen the
largest rise in medical costs in the last four years in the country's history:
$3,500 nationally. And nobody who's watching this debate needs me to explain
this to them, they know it. Medicare premium is up 17 percent on their watch.
Again, largest increase in Medicare premiums in the history of Medicare. We
think -- we have a plan to keep cases that don't belong in the system out. But
we also do what they haven't done. Five million Americans have lost their
health care coverage; medical costs skyrocketing. We have a serious health care
plan to bring down costs for everybody, to cover millions more Americans, and to
actually stand up to drug companies and insurance companies, which this
administration has been unwilling to do.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Yes, Gwen, we think lawsuit abuse is a serious
problem in this country; we think we badly need tort reform. I was in Minnesota
the other day, where I visited an aircraft manufacturing plant. It's a great
success story. This is a company that started 20 years ago with nothing; today,
they're the second leading producer of piston-driven aircraft in the country.
He told me that if it weren't for the increased cost of his liability insurance
-- in this case, product liability -- he could hire 200 more people in his
factory.
We've built into the system enormous costs as a result of our practice with
respect to litigation. We have to find ways to get a handle on it.
You mentioned Medicare up 17 percent, somehow that that was something we
caused. No. The 17 percent increase in Medicare premiums was the direct result
of the statute adopted in 1997. John Kerry voted for it. It establishes a
formula for Part B of Medicare that says, in effect, it has to cover 25 percent
of the cost of the program. And the reason the money had to go in to the trust
fund was to make certain that we could cover those eligible for benefits.
While you were in private practice in law, and as a senator, you had a
advantage of a special tax loophole, subchapter-S corporation, which you set up
so you could avoid paying $600,000 in Medicare taxes that would have gone into
the fund. And it's those kinds of loopholes that necessitate a premium increase
under the law that was enacted in 1997, supported by John Kerry.
MODERATOR: You have 30 seconds to respond.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Well, first of all, I've paid all the taxes that I owe.
When the Vice President was CEO of Halliburton, they took care of -- took
advantage of every off-shore loophole available. They had multiple offshore
companies that were avoiding taxes.
Those are the kind of things we ought to be closed -- that ought to be
closed. They ought to be closed for anybody. They ought to be closed whether
they're personal and they ought to be closed whether they apply to a
corporation. But the reality is, health care costs are going up every day for
the American people, and I hope we're going to get a chance to talk more about
health care.
MODERATOR: Thirty seconds, Mr. Vice President.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: We've done a lot to reduce the costs of health
care. The Medicare and drug benefit that we'll be providing to seniors
beginning in '06 will provide upwards of $1,300 a year to help them buy
prescription drugs. The drugs savings, drug discount card that's now available
saves an estimated 15 to 30 percent off the cost of prescription drugs for
senior citizens.
So we're moving in as many areas as we can to make certain we hold down or
reduce health care costs.
MODERATOR: And we'll talk to you about health care, Mr. Vice President.
You have two minutes. But in particular, I wanted to talk to you about AIDS,
and not about AIDS in China or Africa, but AIDs right here in this country,
where black women between the ages of 25 and 44 are 13 times more likely to die
of the disease than their counterparts. What should the government's role be in
helping to end the growth of this epidemic?
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, this is a great tragedy, Gwen, when you think
about the enormous cost here in the United States and around the world of the
AIDS epidemic -- pandemic, really. Millions of lives lost, millions more
infected and facing a very bleak future. In some parts of the world, we've got
the sort of entire sort of productive generation has been eliminated as a result
of AIDS. All that's left are old folks and kids, nobody to do the basic work
that runs an economy.
The President has been deeply concerned about it. He has moved and
proposed and gotten through the Congress authorization for $15 billion to help
in the international effort, to be targeted in those places where we need to do
everything we can through a combination of education, as well as providing the
kinds of medicines that will help people control the infection.
Here in the United States, we've made significant progress. I had not
heard those numbers, with respect to African American women. I was not aware
that it was that severe an epidemic there, because we have made progress in
terms of the overall rate of AIDS infection. And I think, primarily, through a
combination of education and public awareness, as well as the development as a
result of research of drugs that allow people to live longer lives, even though
they are infected. Obviously, we need to do more of that.
MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, you have 90 seconds.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Yes, well, first, with respect to what's happening in
Africa and Russia and other places around the world, the Vice President spoke
about the $15 billion for aid. John Kerry and I believe that needs to be
doubled. And I might add, on the first year of their commitment, they came up
significantly short of what they had promised.
And I -- we probably won't get a chance to talk about Africa. Let me just
say a couple of things. The AIDS epidemic in Africa, which is killing millions
and millions of people, and is a frightening thing, not just for the people of
Africa, but also for the rest of the world. That, combined with the genocide
that we're now seeing in Sudan, are two huge, moral issues for the United States
of America, which John Kerry spoke about eloquently last Thursday night.
Here, at home, we need to do much more. And the Vice President spoke about
doing research, making sure we have the drugs available, making sure that we do
everything possible to have prevention. But it's a bigger question than that.
You know, we have 5 million Americans who have lost their health care coverage
in the last four years -- 45 million Americans without health care coverage. We
have children who don't have health care coverage. If kids, and adults, don't
have access to preventative care, if they're not getting the health care that
they need day after day after day, the possibility of not only developing AIDS
and having a problem -- having a problem, a life-threatening problem, but the
problem of developing other life-threatening diseases is there every day of
their lives.
MODERATOR: Okay, we'll move on. This goes to you, Senator Edwards, and
you have two minutes. Ten men and women have been nominees of their parties
since 1976 to be Vice President. Out of those 10, you have the least
governmental experience of any of them. What qualifies you to be a heartbeat
away?
SENATOR EDWARDS: The American people want in their President and in their
Vice President basically three things. They want to know that their President
and their Vice President will keep them safe. They want to know that they have
good judgment. And they want to know that you're telling the truth. John Kerry
and I will tell the American people the truth. During the time that I have
served in the -- on the Intelligence Committee in the Senate, traveling to some
of the places we've talked about tonight -- Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Middle
East, Turkey, meeting with leaders of NATO -- I have a very clear idea of what
has to be done to keep this country safe.
The threats we face, terrorism, killing terrorists and stopping them before
they can do damage to us, making sure that we stop the spread of nuclear
weapons, I agree with John Kerry from Thursday night, is -- the danger of a
nuclear weapon getting into the hands of terrorists is one of the greatest
threats that America faces.
But the one thing that we know from this administration is -- and, first
of all, I don't claim to have the long political resume that Vice President
Cheney has. That's just the truth, and the American people know that and
deserve to know it. But what we know from this administration is that a long
resume does not equal good judgment.
Here are the judgments I would make. My first priority would be to keep
this country safe. I would find terrorists were they are, and stop them, and
kill them, before they do harm to us. We would stop the spread of nuclear
weapons. And we would also strengthen this military, which means providing the
equipment and training that they need. We want to raise the active duty forces
by 40,000, double the Special Forces, so we can find terrorists where they are,
and provide the kind of support for families -- health care, housing -- that
they deserve while their loved ones are serving and protecting us.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, you have 90 seconds.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: You want me to answer a question about his
qualifications?
MODERATOR: That was the question.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: I see. Well, I think the important thing in
picking a Vice President probably varies from President to President. Different
Presidents have approached it in different ways. When George Bush asked me to
sign on, it obviously wasn't because he was worried about carrying Wyoming. We
had 70 percent of the vote in Wyoming, although those three electoral votes
turned out to be pretty important last time around. (Laughter.)
What he said he wanted me to do was to sign on because of my experience, to
be a member of the team, to help him govern. And that's exactly the way he's
used me. And I think from the perspective of the nation, it's worked in our
relationship, in this administration. I think it's worked, in part, because
I've made it clear that I don't have any further political aspirations myself,
and I think that's been an advantage. I think that allows the President to know
that my only agenda is his agenda. I'm not worried about what some precinct
committeemen in Iowa is thinking of me with respect to the next round of
caucuses in 2008.
It's a very significant responsibility, when you consider that, at a
moment's notice, you may have to take over as President of the United States and
make all those decisions. It's happened several times in our history, and I
think that probably is the most important consideration in picking a Vice
President, somebody who could take over.
MODERATOR: You have 30 seconds if you'd like to --
SENATOR EDWARDS: Actually, the most important thing I've learned from this
process is what I now know about John Kerry. I knew him before; I know him
better now. He's the one candidate who's led troops in battle; he was a
prosecutor, putting people behind crime -- behind bars to protect neighborhoods
from crime; called for 100,000 cops on the street; went with John McCain to
Vietnam to find out what happened to our POWs. And the American people saw for
themselves on Thursday night the strength, resolve and backbone that I myself
have seen in John Kerry. He is ready to be Commander-in-Chief.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, you have 30 seconds to respond.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, I clearly believe that George W. Bush would
be a better Commander-in-Chief. He's already done it for four years, and he's
demonstrated, without question, the conviction, the vision, the determination to
win this war against terror. He understands it's a global conflict that reaches
from the United States all the way around the globe to Jakarta. And those very
special qualities are vital in a Commander-in-Chief and I think the President
has them and I'm not at all convinced his opponent does.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, picking up on that, you both just sang the
praises of the tops of your ticket. Without mentioning them by name at all,
explain to us why you are different from your opponent, starting with you, Mr.
Vice President.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Why I am different from John Edwards? Well, in
some respects, I think probably there are more similarities than there are
differences in our personal story. I don't talk about myself very much, but
I've heard Senator Edwards, and as I listen to him, I find some similarities.
I come from relatively modest circumstances. My grandfather never even
went to high school. I'm the first in my family to graduate from college. I
carried a ticket in the International Brotherhood of Electric Workers for six
years. I've been laid-off, been hospitalized without health insurance. So I
have some idea of the problems that people encounter. So I think the personal
stories are, in some respects, surprisingly similar.
With respect to our -- how we've spent our careers, I, obviously, made a
choice for public service. And I've been at it for a good long time now, except
for those periods when we lost elections. That goes with the turf, as well,
too.
I -- I'm absolutely convinced that that the threat we face now, the idea of
the terrorists in the middle of one of our cities with a nuclear weapon, is very
real, and that we have to use extraordinary measures to deal with them. I feel
very strongly that the significance of 9/11 cannot be underestimated. It forces
us to think in new ways about strategy, about national security, about how we
structure our forces, and about we use U.S. military power. Some people say we
should wait until we are attacked before we use force. I would argue we've
already been attacked. We lost more people on 9/11 than we lost at Pearl
Harbor. And I'm a very strong advocate of a very aggressive policy of going
after the terrorists and those who support terror.
MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, you have 90 seconds.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Mr. Vice President, we were attacked, but weren't
attacked by Saddam Hussein. And one thing that John Kerry and I would agree
with you about is that it is --
MODERATOR: You just used John Kerry's name.
SENATOR EDWARDS: I'm sorry, I broke the rule. (Laughter.) One thing that
we agree about is -- is the need to be offensive in going after terrorists. The
reality is that the best defense is a good offense, which means -- and leading
-- America returning to its proud tradition of the last 75 years of once again
leading strong coalitions so we can get at these terrorist cells where they are
before they can do damage to us and to the American people.
John Kerry made clear on Thursday night -- I'm sorry, I broke the rules.
(Laughter.) We made clear -- we made clear on Thursday night that we will do
that, and we will do it aggressively. But there are things that need to be done
to keep this country safe that have not yet been done. For example, three years
after 9/11, we find out this administration still does not have a unified
terrorist watch list. It's amazing. Three years. What are we waiting for? We
still don't have one list that everyone can work off of to see if terrorists are
entering this country. We're screening passengers going on to airplanes, but we
don't screen the cargo.
There are so many things that could be done to keep this country safe. You
have to be strong, and you have to be aggressive, but we also have to be smart.
And there are things that have not been done that need to be done to keep the
American people safe.
MODERATOR: Would you like to respond, 30 seconds?
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: No.
MODERATOR: Okay, we'll move on. This goes to Senator Edwards.
Flip-flopping has become a recurring theme in this campaign, you may have
noticed. Senator Kerry changed his mind about whether to vote to authorize the
President to go to war, President Bush changed his mind about whether a Homeland
Security Department was a good idea or whether 9/11 Commission was a good idea.
What's wrong with a little flip-flop every now and then?
SENATOR EDWARDS: Well, first of all, let me say that John Kerry has -- I
can use his name now? (Laughter.)
MODERATOR: Yes, you can.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Okay. John Kerry has been, as have I, been completely
consistent about Iraq. We've made very clear from the beginning -- and not
afterthought, we said it at the time -- that we had to confront Saddam Hussein
and that we had to have a coalition and a plan to be successful. And the Vice
President didn't say much about it in your earlier question, but Paul Bremer has
now made clear that they didn't have enough troops and they didn't have a plan.
And the American people are seeing the results of that every single day, in
spite of the proud and courageous service of our men and women in uniform.
Now, flip-flop. Yes, they should know something about flip-flops. They've
seen a lot of them during their administration. They were first against the
9/11 Commission, then they were for it. They were for a Department of Homeland
Security, and they were against a Department of Homeland Security, then they
were for it. They said they were going to put $2 trillion of the surplus, when
they came into office, aside to protect Social Security. Then they changed
their minds. They said that they supported the troops, and then, while our
troops were on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan, they went to the Congress and
lobbied to have their combat pay cut. They said that they were going to do
something about health care in this country, and they've done something --
they've made it worse. They said that they were going to fund their No Child
Left Behind -- $27 billion short today.
Over and over, this administration has said one thing and done another.
This President said, I listened to him the other night at his 2000 debate,
saying, I'm for a national patients bill of rights. I know something about
this. John McCain and Senator Kennedy and I wrote it, got it passed in the
Senate. We don't have a patients bill of rights because of one man today, the
President of the United States. They've gone back and forth.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, 90 seconds.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, Gwen, I can think of a lot of words to
describe Senator Kerry's position on Iraq -- "consistent" is not one of them. I
think if you look at their record for voting for sending the troops, then voting
against the resources they needed when they got there; then saying, I actually
voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it; saying in response to a
question, knowing everything I know now, yes, I would have cast exactly the same
vote; and then shortly after that, saying, wrong war, wrong place, wrong time.
Consistency doesn't come to mind, as I consider that record.
The question of troops is an interesting and important one. We look to our
commanders on the ground in Iraq for guidance on what they think they need. If
they need more troops, they'll ask us. But the key here is not to try to solve
the problems in Iraq by putting in more American troops. The key is to get the
Iraqis to take on the responsibility for their own security. That's exactly
what we're doing. If you put American troops in there in larger numbers and
don't get the Iraqis into the fight, you'll postpone the day when you could, in
fact, bring our boys home. It's vital that we deal with any need for additional
troops by putting Iraqis into the effort.
Forty-nine percent increase in funding for elementary and secondary
education under No Child Left Behind. That's a lot of money, even by
Massachusetts standards.
MODERATOR: You have 30 seconds, if you choose.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Yes, but they didn't fund the mandates that they put on
the schools all over this country. That's the reason 800 teachers -- one of the
reasons 800 teachers have been laid off right here in Cleveland. One-third of
our public schools are failing under this administration. Half of African
Americans are dropping out of high school. Half of Hispanic Americans are
dropping out of high school. John and I have -- and I don't have the time now
-- but we have a clear plan to improve our public schools. It starts with
getting our best teachers into the schools where we need them the most by
creating incentives for them to go there.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Gwen, No Child Left Behind, they were for it, now
they're against it. They voted for it, now they're opposed to it. We are
making significant progress there. We are closing the achievement gap. The
results coming in from a number of studies show, without question, that on math
and science -- math and reading, that in fact, our minority students our
Hispanic and African American students are doing better and that gap between
them and the majority population is, in fact, closing.
So we are doing exactly the right thing. They're the ones who have been
for the Patriot Act, then against it, for No Child Left Behind and then against
it.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, our final -- I'm sorry, you have 30
seconds, Senator Edwards.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Are you -- yes -- yes, 30 seconds, yes. We are for
accountability, and we are for high standards. John and I voted for No Child
Left Behind because we thought that accountability and standards were the right
thing to do. But they -- did you figure out you were wrong?
MODERATOR: I did figure out I was wrong. (Laughter.)
SENATOR EDWARDS: Well, in fairness, if you feel like you need to go to him
--
MODERATOR: Well, I do, because we're actually on the final question. I
apologize for giving you an extra 15 seconds. There I go now, to Vice President
Cheney. Whichever one of you is elected in November -- you mentioned those
three electoral votes in Wyoming and how critical they turned out to be. But
what they're a sign of, also, is that you're going to inherit a very deeply
divided electorate economically, politically, you name it. How will you set
out, Mr. Vice President, in a way that you weren't able to in these past four
years, to bridge that divide?
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, I must say, it's one of the disappointments
of the last four years, is that we've not been able to do what the President did
in Texas, for example, when he was able to reach across the aisle and bring
Democrats along on major issues of the day. We had some success early on. I
think the No Child Left Behind, when we, in fact, had broad bipartisan support,
we had a lot of support for the Patriot Act when we passed that on a bipartisan
basis. Now we're seeing objection to that by the other side.
All I know is to continue to try to work it. It's a disappointment, in the
sense that I remember, from my earlier service, when things worked much
differently, when in fact some of my best friends in the Congress were people I
worked with, like Tom Foley, who was a Majority Leader, and later Speaker of the
House. One of my strongest allies in Congress when I was Secretary of Defense
was Jack Murtha, a Democrat who was Chairman of the Defense Appropriations
Subcommittee.
We used to be able to do more together on a bipartisan basis than seems
possible these days. I'm not sure exactly why. I think in part it may be the
change in the majority-minority status in the House and Senate has been
difficult for both sides to adjust to. And the Senate, of course, has been very
evenly divided, 50-50 and 51-49, then 49-51 the other way.
We'll keep working at it. I think it's important for us to try. I believe
that it is essential for us to do everything we can to garner as much support
from the other side of the aisle as possible. We've had support -- we even had
-- our keynote address at our convention was delivered by Zell Miller. So there
are some Democrats who agree with our approach. And, hopefully, in a second
term, we'll see an improvement along those lines.
MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, 90 seconds.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Thank you. The President said that he would unite this
country, that he was a uniter, not a divider. Have you ever seen America more
divided? Have you ever seen Washington more divided? The reality is, this is
not an accident; it's a direct result of the choices they've made, and their
efforts that have created division in America. We can do better than that in
this country.
Now I want to go back to the whole issue of health care, because we touched
it, but I think the American people deserve to know what we do different. I
mean, 5 million people losing their health care, everyone who is watching this
knows health insurance premiums are through the roof. We need to talk about
what we will do that they haven't done.
First, we're going to make the same health care that's available to members
of Congress available to all Americans. We're going to cover all kids. Not
only that, we're going to bring down costs by pooling the catastrophic costs, so
we bring down premiums, and we're going to give tax breaks directly to families,
save them up to $1,000 a year, and to businesses -- the Vice President talked
about that a few minutes ago -- so that they can provide health care to their
employees.
And we're also going to finally do something about the cost of prescription
drugs. They blocked allowing prescription drugs into this country from Canada,
we're going to allow it. They would not allow the government to use its
negotiating power to get discounts for seniors; we're going to allow it. We're
also going to stand up to the drug companies and do something about these drug
company ads on television, which are out of control.
MODERATOR: You have 30 seconds to respond to that, Mr. Vice President.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, Gwen, it's hard to know where to start.
(Laughter.) The fact of the matter is, the most important and significant
change in health care in the last several years was the Medicare Reform Bill
this year. It's the most sweeping change in 40 years. Medicare used to pay for
heart bypass surgery, but didn't pay for the prescription drugs that might allow
you to avoid it. The fact is that when that came up, Senator Kerry and Senator
Edwards voted against it. It will provide prescription drug benefits to 40
million senior citizens. It's a very, very significant piece of legislation.
MODERATOR: Thirty seconds.
SENATOR EDWARDS: They had a choice on allowing prescription drugs into
this country from Canada of being with the American people or with the drug
companies. They were with the drug companies. They had choice on negotiating
discounts in the Medicare prescription drug bill of being with the American
people or with the drug companies. They were with the drug companies. They had
a choice on the patients bill of rights, allowing people to make their own
health care decisions and not having insurance companies make them, to be with
the American people or be with the big insurance companies. They're with the
insurance companies. John Kerry and I will always fight for the American
people.
MODERATOR: As previously agreed, we'll go to closing statements now, two
minutes each; coin toss, Senator Edwards, you begin.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Thank you. Thank you, Gwen. Thank you, Mr. Vice
President, for being here. You know, when I was young and growing up, I
remember coming down the steps into the kitchen, early in the morning, and I
would see the glow of the television. And I'd see my father sitting at the
table -- he wasn't paying bills and he wasn't doing paperwork from work. What
he was doing was learning math on the television. Now, he didn't have a college
education, but he was doing what he could do to get a better job in the mill
where he worked. I was proud of him; I'm still proud of him.
And I was also hopeful, because I knew that I lived in a country where I
could get a college education. Here's the truth. I have grown up in the bright
light of America. But that light is flickering today. Now, I know that the
Vice President and the President don't see it, but you do. You see it when your
incomes are going down, and the cost of everything -- college tuition, health
care -- is going through the roof. You see it when you sit at your table each
night, and there's an empty chair, because a loved one is serving in Iraq or
Afghanistan. What they're going to give you is four more years of the same.
John Kerry and I believe that we can do better. We believe in a strong
middle class in this country. That's why we have a plan to create jobs, getting
rid of tax cuts for companies outsourcing your jobs, give tax cuts to companies
that will keep jobs here in America. It's why we have a health care plan. It's
why we have a plan to keep you safe, and to fix -- fix this mess in Iraq.
The truth is that every four years, you get to decide, you have the ability
to decide where America is going to go. John Kerry and I are asking you to give
us the power to fight for you, to fight to keep that -- that dream in America,
that I saw as a young man, alive for every parent sitting at that kitchen table.
MODERATOR: Vice President Cheney.
VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Gwen, I want to thank you. It's been a privilege
to serve as your Vice President these last four years and to work alongside
President Bush and put our economy on an upward path. We've cut taxes, added
1.7 million new jobs in the last year, and we'll continue to provide
opportunities for business and for workers. We won't be happy until every
American who wants to work can find a job. We believe that all Americans ought
to have access to available -- to medical care, and that they ought to have
access to the finest schools in the world. We'll do everything we can to
preserve Social Security and to make certain that it's there for future
generations.
I've worked for four Presidents, and watched two others up close, and I
know that there's no such thing as a routine day in the Oval Office. We saw on
9/11 that the next -- next decision a President has to make can affect the lives
of all of us. Now we find ourselves in the midst of a conflict unlike any we've
ever known, faced with a possibility that terrorists could smuggle a deadly
biological agent or nuclear weapon into the middle of one of our own cities.
That threat, and the Presidential leadership needed to deal with it, is placing
a special responsibility on all of you who will decide on November 2nd who will
be our Commander-in-Chief. The only viable option for winning the war on terror
is the one the President's chosen: to use the power of the United States to
aggressively go after the terrorists wherever we find them, and also to hold to
account states that sponsor terror.
Now that we've captured or killed thousands of al Qaeda and taken down the
regimes of Saddam Hussein and the Taliban, it's important that we stand up
democratically elected governments as the only guarantee that they'll never
again revert to terrorism or the production of deadly weapons.
This is the task of our generation and I know firsthand the strength the
President brings to it. The overall outcome will depend upon the ability of the
American people and the strong leadership of the President to meet all the
challenges that we'll face in the days and years ahead. I'm confident we can do
it.
MODERATOR: And with that, we come to the end of tonight's debate. On
behalf of the commission and the candidates, I'd like to extend a special thank
you to the students and administration here at Case Western Reserve University.
A reminder, the second Presidential debate takes place this coming Friday
at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri. Charles Gibson of ABC News
will serve as moderator of that encounter, where the candidates will field
questions from an audience. Then, on October 13th, from Arizona State
University in Tempe, Arizona, Bob Schieffer of CBS News will moderate a debate
on domestic issues.
For now, thank you, Vice President Cheney, Senator Edwards. From
Cleveland, Ohio, I'm Gwen Ifill. Thank you and good night. (Applause.)
