Book Club 7 Discussion Excerpts re: public discourse about literacy
Session 8
*****Dyer Posting
Current Forum: Session 8: Book Club Ch. 16
Date: Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:03 pm
Author: Dyer, Kellie <[email protected]>
Subject: Book Club Chapter 16
What do you see that might be engaging to many different students?
Teaching literacy in an effective way will benefit all students in the long run. The question is, how do we get there? Several suggestions are offered in the book. For example, do not hold teachers accountable. This may be a great idea and what some of us are hoping for, but will this actually ever happen? It seems unlikely to me. If we can find the best way to teach literacy and put it into place all students will benefit.
What do you wonder about with respect to equity?
I wonder what we should do to get involved. How can we help make a difference? I am sure there are organizations supporting both sides, does anyone know what they are? How did our educational system get so messed up, when we are supposed to be improving?
Current Forum: Session 8: Book Club Ch. 16
Date: Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:16 am
Author: Gentry, Pamela <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Book Club Chapter 16
About teacher accountability for student outcomes .... as you say, it seems like that will be around for a while. But I wonder if it is possible to encourage the discourse in a different direction? When there are differing views on something, I always try to figure out where the points of shared values are. In this case, I think everyone would agree that we expect children to become literate adults ... and as you said, at least part of the discussion involves how? Another shared value, I think, is accountability....and here again, I think we need to look at a second question: who? That is Who should be Accountable for what?
I think of the education process as building on a triad of child, school/community, and parents/family. Each partner in that triad has different responsibilities and are accountable to different parties. I can't help thinking that if we could get public discourse to engage in sorting this out we could be on our way to some REAL solutions. What do you think?
Date: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:56 am
Author: Dyer, Kellie <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Book Club Chapter 16
I definetley think it takes all three parties for a child to be successful in school. But how do we make sure parents are doing there part. Accountabiity again. How can we know what to hold parents accountable for versus teachers?
Date: Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:10 am
Author: Gentry, Pamela <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Book Club Chapter 16
Parents or teachers? Students or teachers? We frequently lose out because, I guess, when it all comes down to it we've been contracted to "make these kids educated." ... ahh. And that makes me realize I left out a "stakeholder" in my triad: the state. It is in the state's interest that children grow to be productive and upright citizens ... and it is the state (albeit through our money) that is funding a good deal of the enterprise, at least for public education.
Another angle on this whole arguement is the inconsistency between these two statements: "teachers should not be accountable for student outcomes" and "research consistently shows that the teacher is the single factor that makes a difference in student success". We can't have it both ways.
I don't know WHAT the answer to this whole mess is...just trying to figure out what the parts are!
****Brown Posting
Date: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:47 pm
Author: Brown, Teena <[email protected]>
Subject: Book Talk Ch 16
What do you see that might be engaging to many different students?
Somewhere in this chapter (I know I read it somewhere in chapter 16. It must be sticking in my head for a reason.) it was suggested that teachers need to resist the tendency to teach to the test, narrowing instruction to only what will be tested. Reaching different students is going to take more than just high-stakes accountability testing. If teaching to the test continues then we are doing our students a disservice. If we truly want to teach our students engaging each and every one as different as they come, then we must continue or insist on teaching depth in content and life-long literacy skills rather than just test taking strategies. At some point, (like when formal education is through), our students will have to prove themselves in the real world. There won’t be too many standardized tests in place for advancements. They will have to show what they know through the work that they do. To properly train our students to meet the demands of our society we need to train them in the ways they can expect to be assessed.
What do you see that might support/hinder students with special needs?
It seems to me that educational decisions made by politicians just may overlook the true needs of students with special needs. If a political party in power wishes to “force” and issue by hand picking a review board for “best practices” or a report panel showing “what research says” it just may be too wrapped up in its own agenda to see what is best for each and every student. A “consensus” may come about stating this or that is the best way to go while underlying concerns with “this or that” may neglect special needs populations. Again, until the students are treated as individuals, instead of accountability numbers, educational systems may certainly continue to fail students.
What do you see that might support/hinder English Language Learners?
The polar nature of the educational system, one theory/philosophy/program is good while another is bad, can be detrimental to advances in teaching our ELL. Like bickering parents in a custody battle, nothing gets accomplished and headway with children cannot be made. It takes a little from each side to find what is best for the children. The educational battles need to stop. Stop pulling students from one side to the other. Place the children in the middle and take input from all relevant and beneficial views to come to the situation that will work best for the children, the students. (see page 338)
What do you see that might be bias in the language used in the assignments discussed in the chapter?
The entirety of Chapter 16 is blatantly biased against federal control of educational practices, that and any actions that micromanage teachers telling them what to do with their profession. And I have to say that I agree full heartedly with all the assertions. Why do we throw out all intelligence and common sense when it comes to the educational profession? Why are we requiring teachers to spend tens of thousands of dollars on an education if when they begin their careers we are going to tell them they don’t know enough to teach without a governing body or political agenda dictating their day? Making a difference in the current and well-established treatment toward our profession will truly take knowledgeable educators devoted to following what research tells us is best practices in our field. There will be mandates we will have to follow. But we must also maintain what we know to be the best decisions for our children. This may mean taking a stand against the regime. Speaking up and challenging the fundamentals of such mandates. I wonder what it would look like if the faddish mandates, dictated curriculum and instructional practices were challenged before a judge. Would a judge be too driven by political forces? Which brings me to the next question.
Date: Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:08 am
Author: Gentry, Pamela <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Book Talk Ch 16
Wow Teena- you've given some very thoughtful responses. Sounds like you've been "chewin'" on this stuff for a while. The teaching profession really is undervalued in this country...and I keep wondering, where are all of the "bad" teachers? Granted, I haven't spent a lot of time in schools in this country, but 9/10 of the teachers I've run into are passionate about their profession and work hard to make their classrooms a productive environment for learning for all their students.
Also, I have a clarfication question for you regarding your comments about teaching to the test. You state, " If we truly want to teach our students engaging each and every one as different as they come, then we must continue or insist on teaching depth in content and life-long literacy skills rather than just test taking strategies." I'm trying to understand the general dialog about high-stakes testing and there is something I may not be understanding clearly. Are you saying that "teaching to the test" is equal to time spent in test taking strategies? Or is this just a component? How would teaching to match standards be different from teaching to the test?
Date: Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:28 pm
Author: Brown, Teena <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Book Talk Ch 16
About a year and a half ago I attempted to conduct research at a local high school. Instead of welcoming support I encountered brick wall opposition from the principal. He said that they had just started practicing for the TAAS test and would be doing so for the next 3 weeks. He didn't think it would be a good idea to take away from instruction for my research ideas.
I found this nothing but appalling. Spending 3 weeks straight on nothing but test preparation is teaching to the test. Teachers take information from past tests and drill it into the students. Isn't this taking away from instruction?
Teaching test taking strategies is not the same as teaching to the test. Students need to know good stratgies for taking tests. They would drowned in our test riddled educational systems without such skills. But this is something that can be accomplished in 5-15 minute daily focus lessons labeled "test taking strategies".
I don't have the reference now but I read an article by an administrator who'd given a seminar to teachers about the TAKS and TEKS. He said that if teachers are teaching the TEKS then they are teaching to the TAKS. There shouldn't be any stress of not being prepared. I understand that the TAAS was a bit different. And I believe the purpose of changing to the TAKS was to remedy the problem with TAAS.
But teachers have been so driven by principals and district mandates to teach to the test that they don't understand or realize or can't except that this can be done in any manner than the way they've been doing it. To pass the test it seems many still think they have to directly teach what will be on the test.
Teaching what will be on the test and teaching strategies for taking any test is different. One way is preparing for a specific test. One is preparing for tests in general.
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:09 am
Author: Gentry, Pamela <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Book Talk Ch 16
thanks for your great explanation. The situation you describe truly IS appalling. I can't imagine giving up instructional time for three entire weeks just to review old test questions ... boring for EVERYONE and questionably productive. I wonder if anyone ever notices? Or maybe they can just say, "we tried our best...see, we spent 3 weeks" and move on.
Sounds like there needs to be a LOT more awareness and in-service training done at the professional level. It would be interesting to compare program training backgrounds of teachers and administrators with approaches to instruction regarding TAKS ... I'm suspecting there is some strong carryover from the behaviorist side of things. I know that I still struggle with keeping myself in balance in this regard since my original training was in the 70's.
I sure would like to know the reference for that article when you have a chance to look it up...even knowing where you found the article would be helpful if you don't have the exact reference.
to Benjamin:
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:15 pm
Author: Brown, Teena <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Book Talk Ch 16
I agree that there are many situations in which we need to be able to take tests. And teaching test taking skills is not the same as teaching to the test. Testing skills can be taught in a few short minutes every once in a while. In fact, I don't ever remember being taught to the test, or even taught testing skills either. Well, teachers did review how to fill in bubbles just before taking tests. And I came out pretty well. There are probably a few things I could've stood to learn. Most I picked up on my own. But to spend 3 weeks teaching students what will be on a test seems to be a huge distraction from real learning. If we teach our students the analytical skills they need in life, that may very well generalize over to test taking. Those analytical skills come through critical thinking. Teaching students what answers are correct doesn't exactly help them learn discernment. But planning instruction with critical thinking embedded in engaging activities would go farther in life than merely learning to take a specific test.
Critical thinking and sound performance within a job setting is what will get employees selected for advancements. There may be tests they'll have to take to secure a position. But if they can't cut it on the job it won't matter how well they did on any test.
Date: Fri Oct 22, 2004 8:17 pm
Author: Gentry, Pamela <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Book Talk Ch 16
Well put, Teena. It sure helps me to hear/read others reflecting on the same things I'm thinking about.
****Christie Posting
Date: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:04 pm
Author: Christie, Reba <[email protected]>
Subject: Book club ch. 16
Equity
The most important idea about equity that I gained from this chapter is that the people against teacher accountability are also against equity, or equality in student learning. They claim that teachers cannot be held responsible for students not learning—where does the blame lie for the ignorance of the students? With them? With their parents? With the society in which they live? With the school? If teachers believe that all students can learn and achieve, where does this anti-accountability stuff come in? When teachers fight accountability, they are shedding their responsibility to their students. They are believing that their students cannot achieve. They are in effect saying that some students can learn better than their students.
When teachers are accountable for their students, they are accountable for each and every one of them, without reference to their socio-economic status, their ethnicity, their language, or their previous history in school. Only with accountability can students really be treated with equity and equality.
Date: Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:24 am
Author: Gentry, Pamela <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Book club ch. 16
Reba! thank you for jumping in there :-) I appreciate your brave stand FOR accountability when it seems to be the politically incorrect position (at least according to these authors). It certainly was an article to get us stirred .... probably the reason it was included in this anthology.
I had the same thought about the cancer analogy. The number of non sequitors in this article was so high, I lost count very early on.
I'd like to reiterate a question you posed in the equity section of your response: "If teachers believe that all students can learn and achieve, where does this anti-accountability stuff come in?" I keep wondering the same thing. Maybe the opposition is coming from a vocal minority well versed in political influence? There WAS a good observation in the article about the majority of teachers quietly going about their business while the too extremes in reading methodology duke it out. Perhaps the same thing is happening in regard to this issue...or Maybe we (who think accountability isn't all bad) are in the minority? It is certainly difficult to tell.
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:49 am
Author: Christie, Reba <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Book club ch. 16
Pamela,
Thanks for your kind encouragement- sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one who still thinks accountability isn't all bad--which leads me to your last question... I really don't know how teachers are split on this issue. I know that the vast majority of my education professors have held the anti-accountability viewpoint and have ingrained my fellow students with that viewpoint. It is also upheld by the NEA and other teacher-centered unions. However,I wouldn't doubt that it is a small but vocal minority that causes all the hoopla. I don't think that most teachers really have thought it out. Infact, for all of the teachers against the "No Child Left Behind" act, many have not even read the official literature on the subject, but have made their decisions based on word of mouth from biased teacher-centered groups.
The point about teachers agreeing that all children can learn, and then not wanting to be held acountable for them, I beleive, stems from teacher-centeredness and a fear of being held responsible for their work. I think that if they were really to focus on the affect accountability and standards on students, (as opposed to on the teachers) many teachers would agree on the issue.
I also agree that it is important to stand for your beliefs, as the text encouraged non-accountability people to do. The main thing, though, in this case, is to become acquainted with the issues at their root- in this case the real legislation- as opposed to articles of what others say about it (opinion pieces like the article we read), and to form your own opinion based on educated research.
Whew! you're right, Pamela, about the article getting us stirred!
~Reba
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:31 pm
Author: Gentry, Pamela <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Book club ch. 16
You know, it is almost humorous how the authors lifted up the education professors and education establishment elite ... the enlightened ones. There is a LOT of post-modern relativism permeating the system. And maybe this is where the root of the conflict is? The literati are generally more liberal in their orientation than the general public which often takes a while to catch up. Maybe public education is just another area in which the culture wars are being fought?
Those of us in the big, broad middle need to speak up more loudly, I suppose. But one problem with that is that moderation doesn't stir people. Few pay attention. And those who DO pay attention are often those from either extreme in the perspective who want to make your position more in keeping with theirs...just thinking this through. Is there no end?