Dunellen Historical Society :: Bob Mitchell Oral History

The following interview is being conducted with Bob Mitchell by Mike Byrnes on behalf of the Dunellen Historical Society for the Dunellen Oral History project is taking place on June 12^th, 2007 at the Mitchell�s home.

MB: For the record Bob would you please just give your full name, date of birth and where you were born?

BM: Robert Mitchell, Robert D. Mitchell. I was born June 11^th, 1918 in Plainfield, New Jersey resided there until I was about 3 � years old, then moved to Dunellen. So I�ve been in Dunellen 84 plus years.

MB: Whereabouts in Dunellen did you move to?

BM: 353 Dunellen Avenue that�s opposite Lincoln School.

MB: Now maybe you could tell me something about your parents.

BM: My parents were originally from the Plainfield area. My father lived on Grand Avenue in Plainfield. My mother who was a Debele was born in Plainfield and lived at the Debele Farm on Rock Avenue, North Plainfield.

MB: And Debele how do you spell it?

BM: DEBELE. I think it�s a German name. My father of course Mitchell was Scotch way back when.

MB: And what did your father do for a living?

BM: My father was employed by the Guaranty Trust Company in New York and he retired from that company, I don�t remember the year off hand. He was in the accounting department, that�s all I remember of it.

MB: So your dad commuted back and forth on the train?

BM: He was one of the early commuters and that�s one of the things I remember as a kid, my sisters and I, when we were in Dunellen of course, we walked down to the railroad station to meet him on the 6:20 train in the evening and walk back with him. There was a man that used to walk with us, another old Dunellenlite by the name of Monahan who lived up on 2^nd Street. My parents belonged to a card club in town at that time and at the time mayor who was Joe Morecraft was the mayor later on and there were several adults that had a card club and they would meet at each other�s house every month and I can remember as a kid when it was at our house, we used to sit on the stairs and wait for the refreshments later in the evening.

MB: So this is, when you�re talking about going down meeting your dad at the train station, this is when you were young?

BM: Yes, I was probably in the 5^th, 4^th, 5^th grade at Lincoln School. I started school there in kindergarten and went all the way through the school system. I can hardly remember, one of the things I remember as a kid, in the 5^th grade we used to go to Whittier School for shop and the first thing I made in shop was a Christmas present for my father, it was what they called the match scratcher. It was a piece of wood with some sand paper glued to it and you use that I guess to light your cigarettes, cigars or whatever. That was my first experience in a woodshop and that was in the 5^th grade and the shop teacher then was a man by the name of Henry, Frank Henry who was in the system as long as I can remember.

MB: So you started school in Lincoln School

BM: Yes

MB: But you went to shop at Whittier?

BM: At Whittier because they didn�t have a shop, the Whittier School. In fact our recreation in the winter in the Lincoln School was held in one of the basement rooms and we used to play some kind of catch ball in the basement room. So we were there, I stayed there and the 6^th grade was when they started to build a junior high school. So as a 6^th grade we had a half a day and the kids from the Southside came over to Lincoln School for a half a day. So that year was probably was either 32, 31 or 32, I�m not positive with that we shared school time at Lincoln School. We�d have I think I remember we had like 2 months in the morning and they would have 2 months in the afternoon then we you know reverse it. And in the wintertime I remember one winter we had it in the morning, in the afternoon those of us who could use to go to Washington Rock and then come down with sleds. Of course Highway 22 wasn�t there then and I remember we would come down the road and come right down Washington Avenue to possibly where the, I can�t think of the name of the ice cream store that was there, Friendly�s. That far on the sleigh and we had a heck of a time and that�s when I first got involved with people from the Southside of town. Up to that point it was the North side, never interfered with the Southside. Quite a few people from the Southside, kids of our age one in particular I remember is Betty Hummel who was Betty Forman at the time and we all kind of hung out together through those years and went through junior high school and in the 10^th grade, some, we did not have the high school at that point then they went to Bound Brook High School. I stayed in Dunellen and graduated in the first class 1937 in Dunellen.

But the very early part of my time, I remember much about North Avenue in Dunellen starting at Washington Avenue, there was a meat market there and there was a men�s clothing store, a man by the name of Paul, Abe Paul had a clothing store. There was a candy store ran by Mrs. Margentino, I think I remember Block�s market was there. The paper store was run by the Goldberg family, the drugstore next to it was Sauer�s Drug Store, later changed names of course and there was a dry goods store next to it called the Star Department store. Then came the hardware store run by the Cashin family. Further on down the block was the First National Bank, I remember there was another grocery store, Zinks had a bakery, there was a Butler Grocery Store, a meat market, I don�t remember the name and then the gathering of course the what was called ( ?) later on the Blue Bird run by the DiLeonardo family and then down 2 or 3 stores down was the Prospect which was run by Carl Rifino, who also was a barber and he had a barber shop right next to the Prospect and I think they had a little entrance in between the candy store and the barber shop and later on they enlarged the Prospect store. They had this nickel thing you put the nickels in and play the music,

MB: Sure a jukebox.

BM: Jukebox that was much later on but on the other side of the barbershop was an alleyway and that alleyway ran from Front Street to North Avenue and in that alleyway near the entrance was the diner as I remember, the Dunellen Diner was there. In back of that diner was a livery stable and I don�t remember all the stores that were next, which later on became I guess there was a beauty salon there today. Of course the diner had not been relocated where the Seven Days, wasn�t there then. And on the corner of Lincoln Avenue and North Avenue was another grocery store on the corner, across the street in the building where the apartments are today, was a building called the Kuldoshes Building and in it was a Mr. Kuldoshes was a plumber, had a plumbing shop and later became a grocery store and in the early, after Prohibition, there was a liquor store called the Blue Star which was in that building. Along North Avenue further on where the CVS is now, there was a building in there they called the Sunshine Market. It was a fruit market and one of the owners, one of the sons of the owner was a man by the name, a fellow by the name of Tiger Andrews, who later became a movie star. He was in quite a few shows on Broadway and also in Hollywood. And in that area where the CVS is prior to them being there and before, between there and the Kiscos was an open field and the firemen used to have carnivals there when I was a kid.

MB: Now this where? Kiscos is on

BM: Kiscos in between Kiscos and the CVS.

MB: But wait, Kiscos is on Washington.

BM: I�m sorry not Kiscos, Zupko�s in that area between CVS the Sunshine Market was an open space prior to the used car lot that was there, was open and I guess I must have 7-8 years old or something like that. The fireman used to have carnivals there. And the theater was then called as I remember called the Cameo and they used to have vaudeville in there. Yeah they�d have vaudeville shows come in, don�t ask me how successful it was, I don�t recall that but there are some of the things I remember on that side of North Avenue. On the opposite side where the municipal building is today, I think in that book shows it, you had the police department,

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It was in that building and the courthouse and everything else. They had a fire bell right in the corner; I think that�s also in that history of Dunellen. And where the service station was and the, where the bank is was a park for the railroad station and on the Prospect Avenue before it was elevated there was a freight station there and a siding and the railcars, only a few could come in would come in and drop whatever they had there but where the bank is now was like a small park. Of course the post office wasn�t there. The post office was on the corner of Washington Avenue and North Avenue on the northeast corner. There was a post office there. Later on Allan�s Jewelry store was there for a while. On top of the post office was a bowling alley.

MB: On top of the post office?

BM: On top of the post office and later on it became I think a pocket book factory. That pocket book factory later on moved over to Front Street, if you know where it is a vacant piece of property and there was a garage there and when I was a kid, it was a garage and when beer came into being, that would be 32-33 there was a Beer Garden in there.

MB: This is right on Front Street?

BM: This is on Front Street. There was a Bear Garden in there later on. I don�t know what happened later on and where the Weekly Call was across the street that used to be Runyon�s Funeral Home. You probably know about that anyway.

MB: I heard a little bit.

BM: That�s where they started. Of course later on the Weekly Call was there. They are some of the recollections that I remember as a kid and I can remember when the Elks Building was vacant where it was and the Elks Building first was located on North Avenue in a house probably where those little group of stores, probably that house was moved to First Street, that�s still there on First Street and then of course the Elks Building was built. I think it was in 1927, they had the cornerstone and Governor Kaufman was at the dedication. Oh it was big time you know then but there were even little carnivals, small, you know the firemen they�d throw the things that they would throw the things that would knock the bottles down. But I remember in 1932 particularly that was George Washington�s 200^th Anniversary and a Patriotic Sons of America, I think they called it, had a pageant I guess you would call it and it was up at Washington Rock. I was dressed as a drummer boy and they had the affair up at Washington Rock. I don�t even think that they�re in existence; I don�t think the Patriotic Order is in existence anymore.

MB: I�m not aware of it.

BM: That was the, what would you call it, that was where everybody went.

MB: What was up at Washington Rock then?

BM: The Rock?

MB: Because I�ve heard talk of a hotel that had been up there

BM: Way before my time, there was a hotel up there, that was much before my time and there are lots histories in that book somewhere there. There�s a lot about that. I know my grandfather who was a farmer on, as I told you earlier on North Plainfield, they used to go up and at that time before my time and white wash the rocks and they�d go up on horse and wagon all that kind of stuff but you know that�s early on. But no, I really like living in this town and had a lot of memories of it.

MB: Let me go back to your school years. Just straightening out where everyone went to school, because you mentioned Whittier and Lincoln Schools.

BM: Wittier, then it was called Roosevelt Junior High School.

MB: So Roosevelt Junior High School is Dunellen High School now.

BM: Today yes. That became Dunellen High School when it became a high school, 4 year high school. Up to that point, up to the 10^th grade was still called Roosevelt Junior High School. Then those that went on to Bound Brook, I stayed in Dunellen and I took some courses at Rutgers, I did not, then I took, they were credit courses. They were in packaging after it got working that was later on. And I took a couple of packaging courses at NYU but not a credit course.

MB: Yeah right. So what did you do? What was your occupation?

BM: When I got out of high school, I went to work as a messenger for Chase National Bank in New York and I was in there and as I said my father worked for a bank and I stayed in that bank about 2 years, I couldn�t see myself staying in a bank so I got out of the bank and by that time I was almost ready to get, I was involved getting ready to go in service in the army. And after I got out of service, I went to work for Gaylord getting on in sales and I stayed with them for 35 years.

MB: What was that?

BM: They were located in Jersey City.

MB: What did they do?

BM: They manufactured corrugated shipping cases like that. And they were purchased by ( ?) and I had a New Jersey territory and then that plant move from Jersey City to Newark, Delaware and I covered this area. I retired in �80 I think it was.

MB: 1980.

BM: So I had 35 years.

MB: 35 years, wow.

BM: But I get my check from, not at ( ?) anymore because they had been bought out and sold and many other things I guess. But all of the you know I was just thinking the other day of how many people are left out of our high school graduating class and honestly I really don�t know. I know of 3 people that are still around or were around because one has since has passed on, one was Elsie Purcell, she died not too long ago and Vernon Noble who was there in Greenbrook and he was a freeholder I think and he�s in a nursing home or in a assisted living home up in Warren Township today. I can�t honestly say who�s left. There�s families alive today don�t know of.

MB: Sure and this is the class of 36?

BM: 1937.

MB: That was the first graduating class from the high school?

BM: From the high school, yeah. If I remember correctly we had about 67 or 68 in the class. The superintendent at that time was Mr. Ralph Crane.

MB: And the classes were composed of kids from all over the area, right, it wasn�t just Dunellen?

BM: They had some students from Greenbrook, had students from New Market, part of New Market because New Market at one point depending on where they lived could go to New Brunswick or some place else, I forget whether it was Highland Park, I�ve forgotten where it was. And those that lived wherever that boundary line came to Dunellen. And then that�s all that was a junior high school then high school but it wasn�t long after that they had their own school and in the junior high school days, we had kids coming from Middlesex, kids coming from Manville and kids coming from South Bound Brook I think, I�m not positive about that.

MB: So that�s when it was a junior high school.

BM: That�s when it was a junior high school.

MB: Then when it turned into a high school

BM: High school other than Greenbrook and a few from New Market, the rest all went to Bound Brook or Manville I think, maybe they had their high school by that time, I�m not sure. But again growing up when Art Color was in its heyday and the street was a thru street, were South Avenue is was where that was a 2^nd Street.

MB: Oh really?

BM: They used to have a ball club and Sunday afternoon was a ballgame at Art Color where the park is today on that end

MB: Where Columbia is

BM: Where Columbia is today, part of that wasan Art Color Ball Park before they built the additional on that side. There as a restaurant on what it was South Avenue called Lendis, I think it was and that was until they closed the street off and built the addition to Art Color. That had to be in the late 30s, maybe early 40s; I�m not sure but definitely in the 30s.

MB: So you�re saying South Ave was called 2^nd Street over there on that end?

BM: Yeah. I think they called it South 2^nd Street.

MB: South 2^nd Street, ah that�s something.

BM: And where the Columbia Park is, that part was just a swampy woods. We used to play over there. Used to play with the kids from the South after we got to know them we used to go over there and play in the woods.

MB: Yeah I guess they didn�t develop that into the park until the WPA projects,

BM: It was the WPA project during Roosevelt�s time and yeah that was a WPA project.

MB: Was that your high school years, your grammar school years?

BM: No, it would have been the high school years. It wouldn�t have been in the grammar school, I don�t remember being then, I would have to be in high school years. That would be prior to 37 prior to that, which would probably somewhere; again I think there�s a plaque or something on the gates of Columbia Street. I think it has the date, I�m gonna say 35-36, I�m not sure about that.

MB: Yeah sure, okay. But now talking about Art Color and the ball fields was that like a big piece of town that people would go and watch the baseball games?

BM: Maybe you spend a Sunday afternoon.

MB: Oh really?

BM: Oh yeah, Sunday afternoon, they�d have, I think they belonged to an industrial ball at that time and Art Color had a darn good baseball team and they had one called, they used to refer to them as the Babe Ruth of the Art Color. Ted Schweer or something like that I�m not really sure but he was built like Babe Ruth, a big heavyset guy. And he could hit, he�d hit the ball a mile away. He was quite a ballplayer and another outstanding member of that

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ball club were the Yuhase family. They were an old time family and I think there were a couple of Yuhase boys they were men then of course were pitchers or shortstops or something they played for and the were kind of stars you might say.

MB: How do you spell their last names?

BM: YUHASE, you can double check that but I think that�s right. That would be, one of the nicknames was Tick Yuhase but I can�t remember, I think it was Pete but I�m not sure about that. I think that might even be in that book somewhere.

MB: Oh yeah I have to look it up.

BM: I think it is.

MB: They all worked for Art Color

BM: They all played by our Art Color. I don�t think basketball; I don�t think they had anything in basketball. Baseball was the thing at that time. I don�t remember anything about baseball and this is where Ed Shurts might help you out. There was a athletic league or athletic team which he was involved in and I think maybe some of the, maybe Yuhase or some of the other people were on that team, they played basketball and what not and Ed was involved in it and talked to Ed the other day I said to him did anyone contact you yet. Ed has a leg problem and he walks around with a cane. They live on Front Street; I told you where he lived.

MB: Behind the

BM: Right behind the CVS on Front Street, it�s a brick house and we were talking about the different, the photograph albums that are in the library, all the different houses and he says you know what you ought to get those, come over to the house, get a hold of Betty and the 3 of us sit down and go over those pictures and see if we can remember anything in particular about those you said because you know you may know something, she may know something, we�d play one against the other, I said I guess I could get those, I saw him Thursday so I haven�t gotten them yet.

MB: That�s a good idea. I have to follow up on that.

BM: So he would be sort of would be able to add a lot to it. And he was a parcel postman in town so he knew where the postmen hang out.

MB: That�s good. Let me ask you some things that you spoke of here like sleigh riding down Washington Avenue from Rock so there was no Route 22, but the road goes up as it does now up to Washington Rock?

BM: Right on to Washington Rock, of course it wasn�t paved; it was just a hard rock road, Washington Rock road. In fact when we were in the as I said in the 6^th grade because it was daylight, we were off in the afternoon, we could walk up to the Rock, ride down, maybe do it 2 times, maybe 3 but 2 times walk back up and ride down and we used to belly-wap you know someone down, someone on top and ride down. It was I guess you might say quite daring at the time. If you know anything about the road coming down, when you get down to that one turn, there�s a story about someone early on and I don�t know if it�s true, coming down sleigh riding and did not make the turn went over in a ditch, hit a tree and again I don�t know if it�s true, supposedly a girl that hit her head and died but I don�t know if that�s true or not. But I was quite a thrill actually. I think you could sleigh ride up there. Before it was 22 it was called Route 29, it was a 3 lane road and the highway department would scrape 40-50 feet up so that when you came down you hit the macadam you couldn�t go any further but that was later on.

MB: So there was no Route 29 there either.

BM: No, there wasn�t any Route 29 when we started, no.

MB: Was there anything in that stretch on Washington like from the other side of the brook going over to

BM: You know where the delicatessen store is? That was nothing but just a road going up to, it was like a piece of farmland I guess you would call it.

MB: Just the intersection of Washington and Green Brook Road.

BM: There wasn�t anything there at all. Nothing. That came later on. The people that owned that property at that time I believe were I maybe wrong about this so, I know our garbage man used to live there, his name was (Stites? ?) but there was a barn back there and also as a kid we used to swim in the Green Brook and we used to go down Madison Avenue and across on that side and maybe 4-500 feet in, there was a deep hole and you could swim and there was a farm a farm owned by a family by the name of if I remember correctly by the name of Smith and they used to have a big old hay barn there and you used to go up and you could swing in the hay loft and all that stuff.

MB: Oh yeah. Is this the Green Brook side?

BM: That�s on the Green Brook side.

MB: So that was the section of the brook that was west of Madison?

BM: West of it and then somewhere I have a picture, you know where Weed Stadium is on Washington Avenue where the kids play ball down Washington

MB: Oh yeah the baseball field.

BM: It�s not called Weed Stadium anymore, its

MB: It used to be McCoy

BM: It�s McCoy Park or used to be McCoy Park. Well there used to be part of the brook they called the bend and somewhere in this house is a picture of my mother, my 2 sisters, sitting on what was a beach there of you know sitting on the beach

MB: With sand?

BM: With sand well you know what I was, dirt sand I gather, I don�t know what else you�d call it but it wasn�t that deep there but it was deep enough to go in and get cooled off, I guess.

MB: There was no ball field there?

BM: No. It�s just a field. And of course there weren�t any houses there then at all. Then down of the Jefferson Avenue side, on Jefferson where there were houses, were there houses today, that is where 3^rd Street, 4^th Street there weren�t any houses or what is 4^th Street, that part of 4^th Street was any houses there and there was, again before my time there was a brickyard down there one time, somewhere in that area.

MB: I�ve heard that in that area that�s

BM: I�m not positive where that was but I can remember going down there walking along the brook and with kids and all that kind of stuff but we used to go down in the brook that caused the bend and there was a tree with a rope and you can hang on the rope and drop down on the water and all that stuff. On Washington Avenue that I didn�t get involved in, again when it flooded and you could go of course the bridge was different then, I don�t remember what it would look like but they used to jump off the bridge into the water when it was flooded.

MB: Well I guess you get that view.

BM: They were daredevils. But they�re the things, I can�t think of anything else. But we had see when my mother was pregnant with my youngest sister that was before we moved in town. We moved just I guess she was just would have been born without her. I spent a year with a friend of my mother�s who was in Dunellen and family name then was Wright and he was s councilman in town and they used to have a meeting not where the Borough Hall is today but there was a building where the Bank of America is today. There was some kind of American Mechanics Association or some grange or something

MB: The is right next to the Dunellen Rescue Squad?

BM: Yes, right in that area, there was a building in there. I�d have to kinda look that over again. I�m sure there�s some information in there about that.

MB: That�s where the borough hall was?

BM: I don�t know, I honestly don�t know where, whether they just use it as a meeting place but I don�t think it was known as the borough hall. The borough hall was where you know there was a library in that borough hall building too.

MB: In the old borough hall.

BM: In the old building.

MB: Oh yeah.

BM: If you look at that picture that�s in that magazine there it will show the police station next to it were, sewing machine place, it used to be part of a police station. All so in was the borough hall for a little while, wasn�t there too long, was the library for a little bit. But then the library moved over to the where the First National Bank building is today upstairs, that�s in there and then they moved to where the Smalley�s Hardware store was in town. I think there�s not a gym, wrestling, not wrestling what do you call it

MB: Where the tavern is?

BM: No, no, no. That�s over in North Avenue.

MB: But they used to be, well there was Schneider�s, now there�s the North Ave Tavern.

BM: Where the bank is, next to the bank. There�s a workout place in there.

MB: Yeah like a karate thing

BM: Well upstairs the library was there for a while.

MB: Oh yeah.

BM: Then they moved over where the recreation building is now before they moved over where they are today.

MB: Where the recreation building is, but

BM: Where the recreation building is upstairs and he librarian then was Mrs. (Burkhaiser?), that was her name, then later on it became Mrs. Clark and she lived up there on Walnut Street and Prospect Avenue, that�s before they moved to their current location.

MB: Walnut and on Prospect

BM: Which was 1974.

MB: That�s Mrs. (Burkhaiser ?) who was what? Was she the director of the library?

BM: I guess they just called her the library man; they didn�t use the term director. That�s when you went to the library and you said no noise, you got a book and sat down, you didn�t have any of the stuff they have today.

MB: Yeah, yeah right.

BM: And you made any noise, you got thrown out of the library. Well a lots changed. But early on I have a picture, the very first post office in Dunellen was on North Avenue, I think I gave someone the picture.

MB: Oh yeah.

BM: It was where 8-on-the-Break is.

MB: Really?

BM: I gave it to somebody, someone sat there was a postal guard, it was like in 1890 something or other and that�s where the first post office was.

MB: That�s great. I didn�t know about that. I know it moved around a lot but I didn�t realize that was one of the locations.

BM: Well I remember it. I remember all that. I remember when it was on the corner of North Washington, I guess you call it South Washington, then it would move to up on Washington where the grocery stores are and then of course to where it is today. And the postmaster that was in that building his name was Fredericks, Wilson Fredericks and he was an amputee and had one leg. That was then very political. And he was a staunch Republican back then. Then when Roosevelt came in, it changed and then the man I think following was, he was a plumber in town. He had a plumbing business and he was the postmaster and he was there for quite a while but that was political, maybe it�s still political, I don�t

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know but it was great.

MB: Talking about the places that were on North Ave, you had said that where old Diner was located. There was a livery stable?

BM: Originally it was a livery stable and when I was growing up it was just empty old barn. But it was a livery stable. There could have been horses there, again before my time probably but we used to cut through there to go downtown so to speak and that diner, I think it was Jack Herman, could have been somebody else early on but that was the first diner that I remember and of course there was a diner where there is a barbershop today down on the other side of North Avenue. There�s a barbershop in its place today. That was another diner but I don�t remember that diner. I also remember on that side of the street where the dry cleaners, that building there were 2 or 3 stores, one was a photograph store for a while and in one of those buildings was a pool parlor in there, the family name was (Karachi?), there used to have a numbers racket in there growing up. Used to play the numbers in there. And then there was the Motor Vehicle later on much later on, Al Day had the motor vehicle agency in one of those stores.

MB: On North Ave.

BM: It was on North Ave and later moved to Washington and of course it moved over to Hadley Shopping Center.

MB: Yeah right, right. That�s great.

BM: Well you remember the curtain factory and know all about that so

MB: Sure that was Betty Hummel�s, that Hummel�s family this.

BM: Betty probably told you that.

MB: She spoke to us a little bit about that, she had worked there when she was a kid I guess, yeah after high school and before college. Yeah

BM: Well her family, her grandfather I guess started that factory there.

MB: Yeah the Van Blaricom�s.

BM: 19 something or other.

MB: Yeah she had said, we spoke to her about that, they moved from Jersey City I think to that location.

BM: He was one of the founders of the People�s Trust Company.

MB: Oh really?

BM: Yeah he could have been the first president of the Trust Company, I�m pretty sure that�s right.

MB: This is the old bank on North Ave.

BM: Well it�s the one that�s now the Bank North or, which is gonna move out of town, that�s where it was

BM: Yeah I heard that. The one with the clock in front.

BM: Yeah. That was then the People�s Trust Company. The First National Bank when it was on that side the street that was the one really owned by the Harris family. They were the ones that owned the bank then. And that�s when you had to; again I�m going back to when I got out of service.

But no growing up I can remember going into that, even as a kid, the cashier or the owner or whoever it was, they�d sit in what was the president�s office I guess, they would look at the stock market and why not, I don�t remember all the details but they wouldn�t do anything unless the board of directors. Bank had a lot of change. Oh growing up in this town was really something.

MB: Do you remember, you must remember when the trolley was running?

BM: Oh sure, oh yeah. We used to go to Plainfield in high school. In high school the social part of high school was the glee club. They hold the dances, they�d have skating parties. We went to this one that had the roller rink in Plainfield on Watchung Avenue. When you get on the trolley car, go down to Watchung Avenue and get off, roller skate, get back on the trolley car, come back to Dunellen and go in what was then Margentino or Beaudreus ice cream store and have a soda. That was our social life. Oh yeah, in fact kids go in to Bound Brook High School had trolley tickets.

MB: I remember Betty talking about this.

BM: And some of the guys would get their trolley tickets sell them and hitchhike to school.

MB: Yes the trolley line used to go all the way down to Bound Brook.

BM: Well it went up North Avenue to Bound Brook Road make a left hand turn, go down the Main Street, what would they call that road in there, goes from in the middle of the Middlesex Borough because they had into Bound Brook.

MB: Lincoln

BM: They go down as far as you know where the Catholic Church is in Middlesex?

MB: Yes.

BM: Well there�s a road it goes in that, that was a trolley line and they go across 28 up around I don�t remember the name of the street and go around like that come back on Bound Brook Road, go up to where you made a left hand turn, you go down into Bound Brook and they�d get off at that corner and walk to school.

MB: Oh really.

BM: Yeah I don�t remember what the trolley tickets cost but I do remember them guys selling the books.

MB: Yeah that was pretty good. So I guess that was like the trolley went until the 30s or so and then

BM: Well yeah that was it, it had to be 36-37, no I don�t remember when the trolley stopped because after the trolley came the trolley bus, which was a bus but had the 2 what do you call the negative move over to the curb, they didn�t use the tracks, they pulled the tracks up and the bus would just come over to the curb and you could get on the bus then. It was run by electric.

MB: So it had like moving or adjustable arms that could reach up to the electricity.

BM: Yeah, yeah, they�d swing over as the bus turned to the curb. That would be in the probably in the late 30s. I don�t remember when they stopped it altogether probably in the 40s, I�m not sure of the dates. But the history is in there someplace.

MB: I didn�t realize there was a trolley bus in between the trolley.

BM: You could get on the trolley and go to Jersey City.

MB: Oh really?

BM: Oh yeah. They go from Dunellen to Plainfield, they�d turn on Plainfield Avenue, you know where that is, go down 2^nd Street all the way to Scotch Plains and I don�t know exactly where it went into Westfield and would go down 28 to Elizabeth and then Frelinghuysen or some street, go into Newark and now I don�t know whether you had to change in Newark to another trolley ride and go to Jersey City but you could go to Jersey City on the trolley. That would be in the 30s but I never did go to Jersey City on the trolley though. I don�t remember going to Newark on a trolley either.

MB: Back you know when you�re young, where were the big shopping centers that you would go to, like you�d go to Newark

BM: Be in Newark. Newark was Bamberger�s in Newark, Bamberger�s was the store to go to and if you couldn�t afford Bamberger�s, you�d go to Kresge, I don�t remember Kresge something later, I�ve forgotten the name of it, they were in Westfield for a while.

MB: So that would be going, taking the train to Newark?

BM: That would be taking the train to Elizabeth Port, change in Elizabeth Port and go into Newark on the train.

MB: Elizabeth Port.

BM: That�s the next station after Elizabeth on the Central Railroad. You change at that station. There wasn�t a direct line then from the Central Railroad.

MB: Oh yeah.

BM: You take a shuttle or whatever they called into the Central Railroad station which was on Broad Street in Newark. I don�t even know whether they have it there or not, I�m not sure. And there was another department store where they liken it to K-Mart or something like that; it was called Kline�s, Kline�s on the Square. They had a store in Newark and they had one on Union Square, New York City and it was very similar to Cole�s, you know that kind of pricing. You could go in there and get if you went to Bamberger�s I�d say Bamberger�s cost $100.00, you can go in there and get very similar things for maybe half that price. It wouldn�t be the same quality but it would be a lot of they did quite a business I don�t know what. I don�t remember you know what it was or anything but I don�t remember going there. I can remember going to Bamberger�s to see Santa Claus you know that kind of thing and that�s where WOR first started you know, the WOR radio station in 1923, actually started broadcasting from Bamberger in Newark.

MB: Wow, I didn�t know that.

BM: And the guy that�s on that one, John Gambling, his grandfather, great grandfather, I don�t know which, used to have exercises with him by lines of music, 1923 that started and they started, I�ve just read this not too long ago by the way, they started, they wanted to do something to advertise and to bring up the business and Gambling and somebody else went to the Bamberger owner, I don�t remember his name off hand, and they invested $20,000.00 to start this station and after the first year, they weren�t sure whether they should continue the business. And the business was actually started in the radio department of the store and they convinced the board of directors or whoever to continue and of course then it grew from then on. But the Gambling family John B. Gambling or John A, I forgot which one of the John Gambling and that�s how that stuff started. But I had a book that was put out by WOR, by the Gambling family I guess and I just read it not too long ago the history of it

Track 5

and of course that grew into what WOR is today. But it was

MB: Sure, yeah. So that was the big

BM: They were the first to broadcast from Newark to Pittsburgh or something like that you know. It�s real interesting about that, if you�re interested in that kind of stuff.

MB: Yeah sure. Going into Newark then was the big trip to the stores.

BM: Oh yeah, Newark or once in a great while you got to New York to Macy�s, Wannamaker�s, Wannamaker�s is downtown, Macy�s was on 34^th Street and there was a Saks but not spelled the same as Saks 5^th Avenue. There was a Saks on 34, I think it was SAK or SACH, maybe it was SACH was a different spelling but it was another big department store. And that was like across the street from Macy�s. That was basically it was, I would say Newark was the major, oh you had Tepper�s in Plainfield or Rosenbaum�s they were the 2 local stores, we went to Tepper�s and Rosenbaum�s most of the time, maybe once or twice maybe, at least once a year go to Bamberger�s.

MB: Yeah. So how did you get around when you were a kid? Was transportation mainly using trains and trolleys?

BM: Transportation then was either the trolley or the train. We first got a car in 26 or 27 I think we had a Chevrolet, a 4 door, I remember because my dad had a garage built. We had a cinder floor, not concrete cinder floor and the windshield then you wound it and move straight up, it wasn�t curved. My mother got her license before my father. They went out to South Jersey to get some peaches one time and it had the running board and coming back from South Jersey they had peaches, they were gonna can peaches and they came where Bakelite is today on River Road coming into Bound Brook, well they came up and then a rainy day but it was flooded and my mother comes through and the window was open about that much and the damn water came through the front of the peaches went all over the water, yeah we had, that was our first car.

MB: Was that a new car?

BM: It was a new car, a Chevrolet and I don�t remember but I know it was under a thousand dollars but it was a lot of money. The first car it was in 26 or 27 and I think the next car we got was in probably 32, somewhere in there and that was a 2 door, they called it a coach, I think there was like you could sit 4 people there, it had 2 doors.

MB: You remember what it was like driving around like how the roads were at that time? Well I know they weren�t the same condition they are now

BM: Oh no, no. Of course you didn�t have 22, you didn�t have that, you had 28. I could go to Pennsylvania on 28. We would go, I had an aunt lived in Redding and we�d go from Dunellen through Bound Brook past the high school into Somerville on that road which I don�t know if they called it 28 then, I guess they did, to Easton go across the old bridge into the town of Easton, there wasn�t any bypass and continue on that road to Redding and it was a hard top road, not like it is today.

MB: So that was the main road.

BM: And another thing if you went to the beach you�d always go with, you�d always go one time you�d have a flat tire somewhere on the road, you get a flat tire. So you always had a spare tire. Sunday school picnics they had at that time, used to get on the train, they�d have like 3 or 4 churches would get together and have a Sunday school picnic at Asbury Park and you get on the train, go to Elizabeth Port, change trains and get on the shore line and go down to Asbury Park then go on the boardwalk and go swimming in the bathhouse and take a picnic lunch but that was a big day like I can remember I went to Presbyterian Church and I could remember in Sunday School, once a year they�d hook up with oh I don�t know how many churches and then have a whole train load of kids from different churches along, maybe Bound Brook go on down to Elizabeth and at Elizabeth Port and have a whole trainload of kids go into Asbury Park and that was in the 30s probably the early 30s. I don�t know whether Depression is in there or not but it was in the early part of 30s, oh Depression was 29 so it was somewhere in that period. Of course we were maybe 10 years old, 8 years old something like that. But that was a day out with church kids. And growing up as a teenager, again being with young people, I was social going to young people�s outings and so forth. They�d go up the Hudson River on an excursion that kind of thing, hay rides, we had hay rides.

MB: Hay rides where, here in town?

BM: Well in fact Betty Hummel, Betty Foreman at the time, one of her birthdays and I don�t remember which one, well she was maybe junior high school or high school, I�d forgotten which, her parents gave her a hay ride for a birthday present. We got on the hay ride at her house on Washington Avenue went out to Piscataway someplace, I don�t remember where but all the kids that hung together went on the hayride with her on her birthday party.

MB: So the hayride was what like a tractor pulling a

BM: No, it was a horse and wagon. Yeah it was a horse and wagon. In high school they had a hayride to, oh that wasn�t with them, it was after my time. They had a hayride down the beach but that was in a truck. We went on a hayride, think it was a (high try?) my wife, she wasn�t my wife then of course and we got on, I think we got on at the YWCA in Plainfield and went up to Doc Watch Hallow which is on Martinsville Road, Valley Road and then you got to Doc Watch Hallow and they had a place to eat and what not then you came back. That was a horse and wagon too. I�m pretty sure it was either the YWCA in Watchung and or the YM on Watchung, I�m not sure which, but I kinda think it was on Watchung, on Church Street in Plainfield. Yeah on Betty�s birthday party, I don�t remember how many people there, 10-15 people, I don�t remember but we had a good time. She didn�t tell you about that.

BM: No, you know we have to go back and talk to Betty because when we talked it was from the Rutgers Oral History.

BM: Ask Betty if she remembers the hay rides. She was I don�t know high school, junior high school. Ask her about it.

MB: I�ll have to do that. You know I realize there�s one thing that we haven�t talked about is you and your wife like when you met, when you got married

BM: I met Emeline as I said in that what do you call, I met her when I got to know people in this side of town and when she went to the 7^th grade which would have been junior highs school, that�s when I met her and we didn�t date or anything like that, we didn�t call it that and off and on through high school off and on, we dated and then when I got out of high school and to work, we two got engaged but I went to high school so I used to go to the dances with Emeline, Emeline was president of the glee club for a couple of years and that�s where we dated. She used to date other guys too at times

MB: How do you pronounce or spell her first name?

BM: EMELINE.

MB; What was her maiden name?

BM: NIMMO.

MB: That was M as in Michael.

BM: Michael.

MB: She grew up in town?

BM: Yes she did. She was born in, her mother died during her youngest brother�s childbirth so she lived with her aunt. So she came here into this house and I think I�m right on this 1927. So she started school here too.

MB: So that�s how you had gotten from the North side of town to the Southside of town.

BM: And 7^th grade. It would be about when we got to 6th or 7^th grade, I forgot which it was. And that�s when I got to know, we used to have here out in the backyard here near the side of the fence, we had a tennis court back there and Emiline, her cousin, some of the kids around built the tennis court; we used to play tennis out there.

MB: Oh wow, that was in the property as it is now; you had more property back there.

BM: Well it was between this split rail fence and the other fence and it went from, we went into the next yard, there weren�t many houses there then and I think people by the name of West owned the property and we just extended it, we used that property nobody. Yeah we used to play and Betty�s grandparents had a tennis court where some of these houses are across the street, little cape cods over there on the corner of West 4^th Street, right over here to an angle there are 2 or 3 little Cape Cod, used to be a tennis court there and there was also a tennis court just before the boundary line of Dunellen and New Market that is owned by the people by the name of Merker, Merker family and that was another tennis court. And used to be tennis watcher. There was another tennis court on the end of Dunellen Avenue, all the way up and there was a tennis club I think it was called the Blue Ridge or Blue Mountain or something Tennis Club and it was quite an active

MB: That�s going down towards Middlesex?

BM: Yeah it�s at the end of Dunellen Avenue, right at the end between Dunellen and First Street on the very end. There is a family by the name of Markel, who was a councilman. That was a tennis court up there; they had quite an active tennis court too.

MB: I seem to remember pictures of I don�t know if it was a retreat house or but it seemed like it had tennis courts on South Ave and maybe Grove?

BM: There was a miniature golf course there, right on the corner.

Track 6

of Grove and

MB: and Prospect

BM: And Prospect where that 2 family house is, that was probably the 2^nd miniature golf course in town. The other one was where the hotel is.

MB: Right behind the hotel?

BM: Right behind the hotel where those buildings are. They used to have night and this was one was owned by I think I�m right, a family by the name of Smith. Then there were 2 in Dunellen that I know.

MB: Was there anything in that section of you know Grove, Prospect, South Ave that you remember. I know that�s all like duplexes apartments now.

BM: Well of course on that side was just where those on the Grove Street side was just a lot of fields in there and of course the Knights of Columbus wasn�t there and those buildings were there, it�s just open fields, that didn�t come till much later. And on the other side of the street, there wasn�t much of anything there either.

MB: No.

BM: In fact there wasn�t that much in that area early on.

MB: Yeah.

BM: I don�t remember when it actually started to develop but going up where the Faber School is today, that was just woods and fields or swamp and whatever else. In fact I was on the school board when that was built. And so was Eddie Shirts, he and I were, when we were trying to decide where that school should be, to get around having to bus kids, we walked from Jefferson Avenue at the bridge over there to see whether it was at that time the one mile whatever limit it was and we were within the limits and we didn�t have to have a bus. And at the time there was a decision of whether that school should be there or part of where the park is. There were some people that or some movement at one of the Faber School became the Faber School over in that end of town.

MB: Like in the back section of Columbia?

BM: In the back section of Columbia, yeah and of course it came up there.

MB: So there was nothing there.

BM: No, nothing it was just as I said swamp and woods. I think some of the houses on this side of the street were there down on this end; I�m not sure about the other end.

MB: Like South Madison.

BM: I�m not sure about some of those.

MB: When was this, this was 50s, 60s.

BM: That would be in the 50s, in the late 50s. I was on the school board during that period, �57 or �58. So it will be somewhere in that period. Even when they built the junior high school back in the 30s they didn�t know, there was talk about moving it way down near Mountain View Terrace on that end of town where there was nothing. When I was growing up, I could go out of my house to Lincoln School, where Lincoln School is and from where First Street goes through and look right down to the brook. There was on Lincoln Avenue, what is now probably 3^rd or 4^th Street on Madison in the field, there was a farmhouse in there and a family an old man by the name of Blaine lived there with his sister. There was only one farm house in there and it was just fields.

MB: Where was this? This was on 4^th and

BM: Between 3^rd and 4^th up in that area on Madison. Now there was nothing that I remember on Madison. There was nothing that I remember on the other side, just fields Mountain View Terrace on that end; I don�t remember anything up there.

MB: So Mountain View Terrace on sort of the Middlesex

BM: The other side of Middlesex side, Madison Avenue side there wasn�t anything there. That�s again where Ed Shirts could be of help.

MB: Oh yeah, I have to talk with him. This is great.

BM: I know I�m sure he liked to be talked about.

MB: Yeah I�m gonna have to speak with him. You know I�ve taken up a lot of time now, but maybe we can if we don�t get together again as a group with Betty and Ed, you know I can come back and talk to you about some other loose ends of thing.

BM: Yeah, whatever.

MB: Yeah this is great. Thanks very much.

BM: Okay. I know you can get something out of it anyway.