Do we have the right to play God? Would mankind be wrong to go on a campaign of selective breeding to weed out weakeness within the species? I'm not talking about races, but genetic hereditary defects like Downs Sydrome, MSD, retardation etc. With selective breeding these could easily be elimanated fromt he gene pool.
Also do we have the right to let people in long term permanent pain have an assisted death?
femme_metale43 Posts: 26 October 20, 2005, 10:38:am On selective breeding, I believe that it is such "defects" that certain people carry that can give us, the majority, modesty, and allow us to count our blessings, even if we have nothing material to show for it. Selective breeding would only make for a discontent world, full of vanity and greed caused by that vanity. As for assisted suicide, the circumstances have to be "just so". A person has to ask for it, in the dire straits of suffering pain and lacking the will to live. My personal opinion, I guess. ~Femme_Metale43~
NuitariFD Fuego de la tierra Posts: 5 October 20, 2005, 11:04:am i am for assisted death, i dont believe someone should be forced to bear pain if it is permanent and they want to die. im not saying kill everyone in pain, im saying if they want to die, let them in this situation. dont get this wrong im not for suicide im solidly against suicide ~*~To become what I became I viewed the sun for the last time Will you still hold me when you see what I have done? Will you still kiss me the same when you taste my victim's blood? So crimson and red, I feel it flowing from your lips.~*~ Atreyu
danmedix Posts: 21 October 20, 2005, 01:20:pm I think people should be allowed to die with dignity. If this means termination from long-term life support, then so be it. ...by reading this, you have just been made a better person. ..........you're welcome.
Alaric Mr. 'I have something to say about everything' :) Posts: 108 October 20, 2005, 02:17:pm I think our society needs to fix its political problems before we worry abotu anything else. "We'll come home when the battle's over. We'll come home, clothes all drenched in blood. This is the life we chose, this is how the story goes for those who fight in the 3rd World War." - The Briggs
Twisted_Transistor Posts: 18 October 20, 2005, 02:43:pm Assisted suicide should be allowed if they could somehow tell the person that they are in immense pain, and want to die. It should be their choice to keep living their miserable lives or not. I would NEVER want to live on life support, as long as I'm consious.
GothicWarfare31 Posts: 29 October 20, 2005, 03:02:pm Assisted suicide isn't playing GOD, its being compassionate to those who are suffering.
BeautysDemise Posts: 2 October 20, 2005, 03:29:pm I do not feel selective bredding is playing god. Of course I am wiccan so I do not beleive that god controls that sort of thing. I think if we told people that their kids would have these disorders they would adopt if it were cheaper that is. and I think assisting someone in death is their right. I beleive that if you want to die then you should be aloud to die, and to keep someone who is in pain alive is just gross and twisted... yes we know mrs G You cant eat shit or breathe on your own, but we are not aloud to kill you... God it pises me off.
Anarchy_God Posts: 12 October 20, 2005, 05:38:pm I dont think we should, but if someone found the way and pitched the idea then a large populaton would go for it and want to see how it would come out, no matter the conciquenses. "The diffrence between genus and insanity is genus has it's limits"
Hellheart Posts: 9 October 20, 2005, 06:55:pm
The question is: do you make the choice for them or not, and what should you control, where do you draw the line of stifling uniqueness and diversity?
I think genetics should be used to identify those likely to run into problems in life, whether it be with anger, possible drug abuse, mental disorders, diseases, physical disorders or anomalies, etc. This will make it far more likely that support exists when these people need it, like before drug abusers get too deep into it by giving them other ways to satisfy the needs that drugs satisfy. It wouldn't eliminate any of these problems, but it will make it much easier for those experiencing these to have a positive outlook.
Especially when it comes to mental disorders that aren't debilitating, many of us had the experience, or know someone who had the experience, of parents totally refusing to believe something's wrong with the child, that he/she's just lazy, disruptive, etc...that it's all the child's fault and hate the child for it when the child really can't do anything about it, even though they may try...with the identification process, these parents will be told "it's possible that your child may have [this disorder] sometime near or before [this age]." This makes it far more likely that they'd see it for what it really is. Of course, if the kid's just faking it, that's what professionals are for :x
If that's done there should be a parental screening also, to make sure they won't abuse the kids. Parents who fail should, of course, be shot.
As far as changing genes? If it'll kill someone in the long run, totally ruin their life expectancy, or is a significant danger to other people, it should be changed. You'd be a fool to say that you should have been left with a shorter life or you really wanted to hurt/rape/kill other people.
motivated_misfit Posts: 4 October 20, 2005, 07:49:pm
there is a story about a buddist monk. he fell ill while travelling and realised he would not get better. while everyone in the party made camp, he put himself into a deep meditation that he would lead himself to death. Later, another monk came into the tent, found him and laughed at him. he said, "Come now, we are travellers, we can't wait around for days for you to die. Let me help you." with that, the other man led the dying one into death with a short, spoken meditation.
The travelling party gave him a proper burial and went on thier way. I think this is the happiest story about death i have ever heard.
if the person know they are dying, why should any one prolong it? if they person is making a concious and rational decision, let them die.
JuST-iN_ThE-MinD Posts: 30 October 20, 2005, 10:34:pm I really dont understand those people with those type of disorders,they say they want to be treated like everyone else but they want all these special things. I really dont know though it depends if those retarted people are given the choice to die & if they take it. I put a spell on you Because you're mine. Im not a spoilt little bitch....... I just get what i want!
sothiswilldo The Popcorn Flicker Posts: 126 October 20, 2005, 11:02:pm Umm, there is no way to prevent MD's. It's a random gene, same thing with dwarfism. Einstin's children were mentally ill... and he was a mathamatical genious. Let's play god when we can actually understand it. WARNING: My profile is umm..shiney.
sothiswilldo The Popcorn Flicker Posts: 127 October 20, 2005, 11:05:pm And to add to that, pritty much every family has the MD genes running in them somewhere, it can happen to anyone, I mean that any couple could have a child with a mental disorder or retardation. You'd have to eleminate all of humanity in order to prevent those... WARNING: My profile is umm..shiney.
enigma413 Posts: 4 October 21, 2005, 02:20:am Do we have the right to play God? I don't beleive so. But who cares? Who listens? iN A wOrLD Of hUmaN wRECkAgE.....
zamaroth Posts: 10 October 21, 2005, 08:13:am i�m scared, because there is no proof that genetic engineering doesn�t lead to DEgeneration. @Alaric: very good point, bro! Edited by: zamaroth at October 21, 2005, 08:14am
M0NST3R_nmy_P0CK3T Mr Brightside Posts: 90 October 21, 2005, 09:55:am
Also do we have the right to let people in long term permanent pain have an assisted death?
Yes to Euthanasia! It's their life let's stop being cunts about it. If they have a limited lifespan which will be painful for them and their families then let them die in peace. kthnxbye, N cunnilingus - a bit of a tongue twister
Dkngod Posts: 29 [edit] October 21, 2005, 10:37:am
I'm all for assited death for those with terminal illnesses. Our governments and religions do not have the right to tell anyone they must live in pain.
As science improves we will be able to weed out the traits of humanity that are seen as drawbacks. I don't see it as being simply cute like uniqueness or diversity. Having a lifelong weakness holding you back from your full potential, which may or may not be full of physical pain, and will often lead to an early death.
Look at the Moonies, Moonchildren, or what ever you want to call people with XP(xeroderma pigmentosum). They are confined to the night (which among VFer's doesn't seem like such a bad idea). Any dosage of UV light is harmful to them and the damage is cumulative. They normally die in their teens after having their bodies destroyed from the inside. This is only one of the genetic defects that could be breed out of the human species. We don't have to kill anyone that is already living, just don't let the potential carriers breed. DC VOA Vote for SinShirtS.com
Danag Posts: 50 November 08, 2005, 05:50:pm i think it is not only a good, but also a necessary idea. the human genepool has been weakened over the last few generations. we allow ppl with birthdefects to carry their genes to the next generations, thereby diluting the genepool with "weak" genes. its a very "third reich" kinda idea, butr it may be one of the very few ideas, besides fashion, that they had something with. but not ojnly would it be good to "restrengthen" the human genepool, but also it would put a stop to the explosive growth of our population. in the last 50 years, humanity has grown more than in the 5000 years before. we have more ppl alive on earth now then there have ever been in our history put together. our planet cant take that strain, and we are heading towards a disaster, which only a few things could change. global birthcontrol, extraterrestrial colonies, or the kind of global cities as portrayed in isaac asimovs robot world series, where every1 has 10 sq. foot of living space, 1 bed, and lives on the kind of cultivated muck you see in the matrix. its either one of these, or a catastrofe that will either decimate our race, or wipe us out all together.
i could keep on ranting about this. its one of my favourite doomsday thoughtlines. i wrote a 20 page paper on both genetical engeneering on humans and global selective breeding/birthcontrol in highschool, and my thoughts on the subject, specifically selective breeding and birthcontrol, have expanded a bit.
so in short; YES it would be VERY good and VERY necesary. (it would mean though that i wouldnt be allowed to breed. because allthough i continually scored very high on intelligence tests, have good endurance stamina and physicla strength, my length brings certain dangers with it. i m 6'9". anything over 6' brings backproblems, joint problems, affects your reflexes, etc. etc. it would be worth it. until then, i, like any other human, will probably breed, as it is in our nature to do. i will just have to hope i transmit the right genes.)
sothiswilldo The Popcorn Flicker Posts: 360 November 08, 2005, 06:17:pm Every gene pool has defects of some sort, it's unavoidable. Like I have previously stated, you'd have to be rid of all human kind to distroy genetic defects. You, me, them, whoever, any one of us could have a child born with some live impairing defect. WARNING: My profile is umm..shiney.
Danag Posts: 51 November 08, 2005, 07:15:pm that may be true, but the human genepool has more defects than other species, simply because they have not been weeded out by natural selection. its not a natural tool without reason...
Alaric Mr. 'I have something to say about everything' :) Posts: 271 November 08, 2005, 07:30:pm It kinda bothers me. Humans in all reality in evolutionary terms are weak. However, we have adaptations to survive conditions by using tools to aid us. Then, yet again it doesn't make sense that a being would adapt to using tools that did not exist that we had to create. sorry... I just rambled about something and confused myself... I found Jesus... He was behind the couch the entire time!
Danag Posts: 52 November 08, 2005, 07:42:pm not just yourself :S
sothiswilldo The Popcorn Flicker Posts: 361 November 08, 2005, 10:20:pm I think I understand you Alaric... o_O WARNING: My profile is umm..shiney.
Alaric Mr. 'I have something to say about everything' :) Posts: 274 November 08, 2005, 10:37:pm Ok, I think I know what I was talking about now. Example: Humans no longer have hair covering their entire body. Humans wear clothing to stay warm. See, it doesn't make sense. Why would we adapt to a tool that doesn't exist prior to the adaptation? We wouldn't wear clothes to keep warm if we had fur for that purpose, so why would humans in cold weather conditions loose their fur and have to rely on clothing? I can't make sense of it. I found Jesus... He was behind the couch the entire time!
Hangmans_Joe Posts: 33 November 08, 2005, 10:53:pm ok...me i know someday i'll want a child and what you'll ar saying is i can't...why you may ask....cause i'm anemic, maybe A.D.D. and i have a bacteria in my blood.....but me and my friend carriethink ppl should take an iq test before having children......or something ike that.... ik ben mike zijn slaafje the knife goes through her skin....and your heart starts beating faster...fell the pressure within....as you look into her eyes....
Elvenblood Posts: 3 November 09, 2005, 01:19:am Assisted suicide... sure. If someone is terminally ill and is in so much pain that they can't bear it anymore, I think it's far more cruel to force them to live that way. Selective breeding? Hitler already tried that one and look where it got him. One more happy crew member of the USS Make Shit Up.
hokeypokeydemon Posts: 24 November 09, 2005, 04:37:am its all on what you may think your morals are...i think selective breeding is just like the olden days...if someone was retarded they wouldn't survive anyways...its a harsh thought but hey now you could always have that little football player you wanted for a son...okay i may be mocking this just a little but ....by the time its reached the fact that we do do this for people...it will of been brought into this world slowly so we dont see it as harsh any more. Also do we have the right to let people in long term permanent pain have an assisted death? i think we should be able to put them out of their misery...if that happened to me where i couldn't do anything and was in pain all the time...please pull my plug. Some call it stalking But i call it love
Carbonchild Posts: 41 November 09, 2005, 07:15:am Assisted suicide I belive should be allowed.
As far as the genetic issue is concerned, there are many hereditary "defects" that can be tested for. If a person who has a risk of passing on a gene that may have negative consequences wishes to have a child, then society cannot forbid it.
While this might not be a popular view, I feel we should learn to accept those who are seen as "defective" in some way. For one thing the attempt to create a race of perfect people may have some unforeseen pitfalls, some of which might be a hell of a lot worse than we would wish to encounter. Please don't upset me, I'm running out of places to hide the bodies.
Aeternatus Posts: 4 November 09, 2005, 03:15:pm In theory it sounds plausible, but imagine how long it would take. not just years but most like decades and possibly centuries, especially with the ever-increasing genetic hereditary defects. That's the main problem with selective breeding. One of the ways it could work is killing off all the people with the defects, then whenever a couple decides to have a baby they should be checked to see if they're both not carrying the same corrupt gene *IMMORTALIZE*
Dkngod Posts: 88 [edit] November 09, 2005, 03:15:pm Carbonchild, very valid point. We start messing with the natural process, we might bring a new and worse horror into play if not dircetly then through some nutjobs side projects.
Like Hangmans_Joe said, I think an IQ will be necessary, along with common sense, and ability tests would also being needed. If you don't score high enough then you get have your tubes tied or get a snip. You can still have sex you just can't reproduce.
Also might be interesting to find out if cruelty is a mental disorder or is it possibly a lil bit genetic to?
I love reading Dean Koontz cause in a lot of his novels he explores genetic research and human behavior. DC VOA Vote for SinShirtS.com
Danag Posts: 92 November 12, 2005, 08:32:am if it ever gets enforced there should be high regulations, as not to get too much of a third reich effect. but it shouldnt only be about iq. imagine in the future a race of einsteins. who will go around collecting the trash? it should be a point, but not the main. obviously, there are defects which should be removed from the genepool at birth. i dont mean killing them off, but just tying their tubes. at birth. or something. defects like down syndrome and such.
and the believe that everything may be genetic.... it is tempting, but outdated. they used to believe there was a gene for homosexuality. turned out that gene governed bodily hair. they used to believe there was a gene for psychopaths. turned out it was just trash DNA, like about 90% of our dna. we have more say over the way we develop as a person than we think. its a combination of nature and nurture. certain genetic codes may make us more prone to certain types of personality, but it doesnt predestin us. back to the subject, i think that at first it should focuss on defects that would prevent us from reproducing "in the wild", like down or born blind. and only if its a defect that manifests itself. if that doesnt work, we could move on to other defects, not necesarily lifethreatening but weakaning in general. but i think we should NEVER, EVER move on to too much governing in intelligence and personality. any1 ever read brave new world?
ixi Posts: 1 November 12, 2005, 09:01:am The down syndrome is taken care by nature.Down syndrome sufferings have very undeveloped reproductive organs,are often infertile,and theire mind can`t think about reproducing.The mutation occurs in a normal persons sperm/egg. And here`s a fact.In Denmark,if you assist someone`s death,you get 12 years in jail.And if you attempt to commit suicide and fail,you get 4 years in a asylum,and later on transfered to prison. The world is farr from doing anything good for itself,everyone just has thoughts about it...Nature will take care of us eventualy,it already started. All illusions lost,All colours faded,A senseless pain,Transparent Imperfection,Falling,Like a sparrow to the ground,Leave no trace of life
Evil_Eddy Posts: 38 November 12, 2005, 09:28:am i believe we should attempt gene manipulation as far as these dieases are concerned...and i believe stem cell research should be carried out. but i will only lead to designer babies
Danag Posts: 94 November 12, 2005, 10:11:am a friend of mine works with ppl with down, and in some cases they have very high sexdrives, simply because the hormonal stuff works, but they have no concept of shame on that area. so they just go at it. and if they want to reproduce, they get help to do so. which is REALLY the thing that gets on my nerves....
ps, it is a genetical defect, determined at the moment of conception. down syndrome is caused by a chromosome 21, of which they have three. it is a miosis defect which occurs at random, when the spermcell is created with a defect, or the eggcell.
they dont know why that causes down, they dont know why other similar chromosomatical defects are lethal and this one isnt (meaning the embryo wont develop whereas the down embryo does). since it is chromosomatical it has a 50 percent chance of being transferred to a next generation, meaning that if two of them have a kid, theres a 25% chance the embryo will be rejected, a 50% (!!!) chance it will be another downchild, and only a 25% chance of being a healthy baby.
ixi Posts: 3 November 12, 2005, 11:27:am well My grandmom (the mother of my mom) had 8 children. the 1st 7 kids were perfectly normal.the 8th has the down syndrome.I wonder what went wrong... All illusions lost,All colours faded,A senseless pain,Transparent Imperfection,Falling,Like a sparrow to the ground,Leave no trace of life
Danag Posts: 100 November 12, 2005, 11:36:am it may have been an egg that was wrong, might have been a sperm. you know that a normal human cell has 46 chromosomes and a reproductive cell has 23? sometimes the division goes wrong, and a reproductive cell ends up with 24 chromosomes. if the chromosome thats double is the number 21 chromosome, the child from that reproductive cell will be a down. unless the cell that fertilizes it/it fertilizes, has the same defect, than it wont be a viable embryo.
Dkngod Posts: 99 [edit] Elvenblood November 12, 2005, 03:34:pm What Hitler and the Third Reich did was not so much selective breeding, but was racism and nothing but. Sure they were encouraging the image of the blond haired, blue eyed superman. Mostly cause these are not common Jewish racial traits. DC VOA Vote for SinShirtS.com
exo Posts: 9 November 12, 2005, 03:50:pm Who is God?
I'll work myself backwards from assisted death(suicide to selective breeding.
Assisted suicide, I'll support that. If I'm laying in your goddamn hostpital in pain and suffering and wanting to die, let me press that button..because it's my death bed, I'll die when I want to.
I don't know much about selective breeding, I'll have to think about it. But I believe we are here to experiment, and I don't think experimenting is "playing God".
It wouldn't help to improve ourselves. I mean, cosmetic surgery is as far as you can go into materialism. We have that, why not eliminate gene's such as Downs Sydrome, MSD, retardation etc. It could save us and improve us..
Not sure if that make's sense. But if you have the right to change your face and how you look, hell, why can't you fix a gene that makes you into something you aren't? Something that's limiting you in life, something that holds you back from the others, something that seperates you?
-nicci
Danag Posts: 119 November 12, 2005, 05:26:pm Hitler was trying to create a masterrace through selective breedings. only the purest of arians would breed with the purest of arians, to create a race of superhumans. he believed the arians to cary the posibility of that race, which could be brought out through selective breeding. the so called inferiority of the jewish race was just an excuse for him. he also targeted gyspys, gays, and ppl with general defects, for example redheads, which he considered to be subhuman.
guineveresbane Posts: 52 November 13, 2005, 01:53:am
Actually if you want a prime example of human evolutionary weakness, look at the increase in allergies.
I work in a hospital and most of the older generation that comes in boasts, NKA, no known allegies. Their immune systems were stronger than ours, but they were exposed to predominantly natural fibers and few antibiotics as children. We (actually the Baby Boomers were the worst)have created many of our own super resistant strains by abusing antibiotics and rushing our children to the hospital when they have a sniffle.
Beyond this argument, in order to decide whether you are playing God, one must first divine and define the Will of God.
Is it to use our intelligence and all it's derivatives in the form of technology to delay and defy death, as It did once according to its own scripture? Or are we rebelling against the design of God in preserving a body beyond its functional capacity with medicine?
I have seen moments where life is preserved beyond reason and it was hateful. I, as a nurse, had to be an instrument of the system and I loathed every moment of it. I admit I cheer when the family intervenes and stops the IV's and the meds. Then I have seen moments where medicine has failed and bowed out when the person was not yet ready.
In the end we, and all we design, are human and will be subject to the volatile nature of our own composition. There cannot be a blanket ruling, only our proactive effort to treat the patient wholistically, mind, body and heart. Sometimes the best medicine is holding their hand and being the closest thing to an angel they'll ever see in their lonely moments, because sometimes I'm the last thing they see.
Don't speculate on death until you have walked someone over and then wrapped their body... When her divine and wicked kiss is set upon your lips, all the sunrises you have forgotten shall roll back over you like the echo of a world cracking in two.