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* - Means it's interesting.
THIS CHURCH IS INTERESTING FOR THE FACT THAT IT LEFT THE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH BEFORE THE UNITING CHURCH WAS EVER FORMED.
1.
28 people in 4 April 2004 at 10.30am (19 people at 9am). 25 people 22 July 01.
(30 people 28/5/00).
*2. 65 chairs (The rent of this building is less
rent and it's much nicer than Groom Pk hall where the church used to be.)
*3. Type of person: Conservative, as with many churches, they tend to go their
own way due to a non- adherence once they realise split over finer points of scripture
and have separated from mainstream Presbyterians. Often they'll believe in Calvinism
(which means "Once saved always saved" belief.), Westminster Confession
etc.. Being a Presbyterian church they DO believe in babies being baptised but
being Reformed Presbyterians they do NOT take a LIBERAL view of scripture and
they DO NOT baptise the children of non-believers for traditions sake.
*4.
Socio- Economic Status: Teachers, Blue collar management, students.
5.
Amount of children: 5 x 14-16yo.
6. Ages: In 4 April 2004 were 4 aged 15-22yo.
In 22 July 01 were 8 are 60+; 6 are 40-59.
7. Thirteen of the 35 were male.
(Including children) % men.
*8. Offering: Said from pulpit that it was
urgent that they needed $1000. Pastor is on a stipend.
9. Lateness of
people getting to church: One.
**10. Any other interesting information:
Parishioner said a typical attitude of all churches generally "We don't feel
like we are apart of the wider church community and it may be worth while to do
so but we haven't been asked."
11. Time spent there AND date
of visit: 5 hours from 9am-2pm on the 4 April 2004; 22 July 01. 4m 28/5/00.
12. Length of service: 1hour 35 mins.
13. This and other service times: 9am-10am
is an Adults Sunday School where they sing one hymn and study the Westminster
Confession. From 10am till 10.30am is a cup of tea. From 10.30am till Noon is
the Worship service. From Noon till 1pm is lunch which they have every Sunday
and all are welcome.
***INTERESTING INFORMATION: I was refused communion
for the second time in my life. I was told they had a "fenced communion"
policy where only members were able to partake of the Lords Supper. I was able
to watch along with 4 people aged 15-17yo. *Conservative
denominations often have "Sunday Schools" for ADULTS and it's a closer
small group study of scripture. Many unorthodox or reformed or independent type
churches do this and this idea tends to be more from the USA than Australia. e.g.
SDA, Church of Christ non- denominational; Bretheren; etc..
*14. Preacher:
Rev Luke Zylstra. This Pastor was born in Holland, Apeldoorn and immigrated as
a young boy. He is married to an American missionary where they met on the field
in New Guinea. They have been missionaries in many countries. Scott Little,
a teacher from from Middle Ridge State Primary School preached 4 April 2004 while
Luke Zylstra was in New Zealand at a church government international meeting.
A Mr Bellchambers took one study 4 April 2004 and read from an Australian book
on church history of how when Toowoomba had not a population of 110,000 in 2004
but when it had a population of only 6,000, there was a revival which swept through
the town in which 165 people were saved.
15. Feeling of building: Building
ok. Church is friendly and conservative.
16. Estimate style of belief: Non-Charismatic.
Fundamentally evangelical. Anecdotal evidence would suggest this church spent
the most amount of time in public prayer than any other church I have came across.
**OF INTEREST: The Uniting church was amalgamated or formed out of
the Methodist, Presbyterian and Congregational churches but the Reformed Presbyterians
left well before, in the year 1969 / 1967, due to not appreciating the liberal
stance of their counterparts and preferring to believe in the authority of scripture
and such distinctives. There are some 15 churches in Australia and some 6 churches
worldwide in this Australian born denomination. It started from a Sydney
Presbyterian church called Sutherland Presbyterian
in 1969 / 1967
17. Dress code so as not to stand out: Very casual to a bit
formal.
18. How to get there: Travel west along Jelicoe St, cross Mary St
and the U.Q. building in a large park is on the left.
REFORMED CHURCH OF TOOWOOMBA. (Dutch Reformed) See CHRISTIAN REFORMED CHURCH OF TOOWOOMBA.
1. Number
of people: 146.
2. Number of chairs: Approx 150.
3. Type of person:
Met WW2 veteran 1 May 2005, Health food shop owners, Retail assistant.
4.
Socio-Economic Status: Medium.
5. Amount of kids: Six children left for Sunday
school at 9.15am. Some 26 Fairholme high school students occasionally turn up.
6. Ages of people: Mostly 50+.
7. 50% are men.
8. Weekly offering
published: -.
9. Lateness of people getting to church: Ten had to squash
in at front.
*10. Any other interesting information: Rev Roy Wright was
a RARE example of digestable preaching. May we no more hear the incessant
gong of others preachers as they lament over such typical statements i.e. "This
means that." Instead from Roy Wright we hear a 15 minute sermon of actual
explanation of Scripture. Not just any Scripture. Jesus's words are explained
in detail. (Believe me, that's VERY rare in itself. Usually sermons contain none
or a very poor 1 minute and 30 seconds of explanation of Scripture. Even then,
it is filled with an agenda and double meanings. Usually to do with how little
money and power their church has. Which are really, secular values.) The congregation
was not "told" anything. Instead he SUGGESTED "PERHAPS the woman
inherited the nard which she broke on Jesus's feet." This is in keeping with
the spirit of Scripture. For Jesus admonished the Pharisees for claiming they
were the consummate answer. i.e. THE BEST WAY IS
TO SUPPLY INFORMATION AND GIVE EXAMPLES OF WHAT IT "COULD" MEAN. BUT HE ALSO GAVE
INFORMATION. FOR EXAMPLE "THE NARD weighed this much and cost perhaps THOUSANDS
OF DOLLARS IN TODAY’S MONEY, ALMOST A YEAR OF A COMMON MAN’S WAGES of those times."
Now THAT information is information which people do not forget. Even if they try.
The worst thing a preacher can do is go into "teaching mode". Jesus is the only
teacher says the bible. The drone of the entire world’s churches are filled to
the brim of this noisy, ineffective gong. The BEST sermon points quoted were when
he expounded how and why the woman broke nard on Jesus's feet. Paraphrasing- 1.
"One person was more concerned with the practical then the spiritual. The spiritual
is more important." 2. "Ask yourself ‘Is there more I can do for a person I know…
NOW!’ Do I break the container of perfume?" I really doubt he received these revelations
himself. I would say he has good taste and an even better library. Which is still
all good.
11. Time there AND date of visit: 146
people on 1 May 2005 9.35am-11.30am; 70 people on 9April 2004 (I visited this
church Good Friday); 70 people at 2000.
*(Been there for 6 times as this
church and South Presbyterians has THE BEST missionaries coming through who give
talks. For example, I saw a Columbian Australia couple one week end. Then another
week end I saw the Indonesian National Director of an enormous Christian radio
station FEBC.
12. Length of service: Allow 1hr 20min.
13. This and
other service times: 8.45am.
*14. Preacher: As date of report, 1 May 2005, Rev Roy Wright. NUMBERS DOUBLED
in 12 months of Roy's appointment (Roughly till 1 May 2005). When this initial
report in 2000 was done there was no Pastor. (Interestingly the treasurer with
tongue in cheek once said "We can catch up on building repairs when we have
no minister.") The church got air conditioned costing at least $12,000. A
member of a sister Presbyterian church said "St David Presbyterian was not doing
so well years ago, the former minister there, Andrew Morris, took half the congregation
away from that church" Another member of St David’s said much the same. No apparent
split nor other church was re-formed in it’s place by Andrew Morris.
15. Feeling of building: ok.
16. Estimate style of belief: Conservatively
evangelical. Essentially non-Charismatic.
17. Dress code so as not to stand
out: Casual to smart.
18. How to get there: Travel north along Mary St cross
Bridge St.
1. Number
of people: 126.
2. Number of chairs: 165.
3. Type of person: -.
4. Socio-Economic Status: Middle.
5. Amount of kids: 19
*(Like many
churches there is no Sunday School during school holidays).
6. Ages of
people: 20-50yo.
7. 50% are men.
8. Weekly offering published: $1222
23/9/01 ($1112 needed for budget) $335 missions ($684 budget needed). In April
2000 the position was similar- $1240.65. ($392 per month for missions offering
given but $684 needed.
9. Lateness of people getting to church: -.
*10.
Any other interesting information: Like MANY evangelical churches this denomination
do NOT find it easy to find ministers. Generally traditional churches find it
the hardest, charismatics find it the easiest. In Sept 2001 there is a "supply"
(relief) minister of Rev Dr Ken Gardner. Rev Graeme McKay from Scotland is currently
being offered the position for early 2002. He has taken the position as of March
2003.
11. Time there AND date of visit: 9.50am-10.05am 23/9/01. Plus
some 8 other services.
12. Length of service: Allow 1hr 30min or till 11am.
13. This and other service times: 9.30am and 5.30pm.
**14. Preacher:
The Pastor is Rev Graeme McKay. Supply Minister has been Rev Dr Ken Gardner (He
may be seen as old fashioned but an excellent scholar of the Word. He says things
like "For the memory of the unseen witnesses. We thank you oh Lord. Oh taste
and see that God is good.")
15. Feeling of building: Need more
room, difficult to get a seat.
*16. Estimate style of belief: Conservatively
evangelical. Essentially non-Charismatic. (Keep in mind that all the remaining
Australian Presbyterian churches who did NOT join the Uniting church amalgamation
did so BECAUSE they are less humanistic/ liberal, from the outset.)
17.
Dress code so as not to stand out: Casual to smart. 18. How to get there: Travel
toward Geddes St along South St, turn North.
***1.
Number of people: 18. (Many Pastors and parishioners ask me what the answer is
to get youth involved with the church. This is my advice. Give the Sunday night
services to the youth. Let THEM decide songs, etc so that it becomes a LAY PERSON
LED SERVICE. Get youth to form their own "board" to decide "fun"
things to do in the service, anything they want to do, give them free reign. (I.E.
See St Bartholomews Anglican and Live It Lutheran, Liberty Fellowship John 10:10
nights.) (I.E. CD songs, no sermon, lay sharing of stories, candles, stories told
through stuffed toys like a puppet, anything!) Have the Pastor there in the background
just to guide them. This is the secret of success of many churches. Another top
idea some churches do is to give the mornings over to the youth as well and have
a "Monthly Youth Sunday Morning Services" where all the youth do everything.
Adults love seeing the youth getting involved and the youth feel like they are
a part of the church.) (With this actual service here the youth did not dominate
this service, hymns were a strong component.)
2. Chairs: 165.
3. Type of person: -.
4. Socio-Economic Status: Middle.
5. Amount
of kids: 0.
6. Ages of people: 2 not 50yo+.
7. 50% are men.
8.
Weekly offering published: -.
9. Lateness of people getting to church: -.
10. Any other interesting information: -.
11. Time there AND date of
visit: 5.50pm-6pm 23/9/01.
12. Length of service: Allow 1hr 30min or till
11am.
13. This and other service times: 5.30pm and 9.30am Please note during
winter services are 5.30pm and by the end of September services go back to a 6.30pm
slot as it's warmer.
14. Preacher: Supply Minister Rev Dr Ken Gardner. Pastor
is Rev McKay. 15. Feeling of building: -.
16. Estimate style of belief: Conservatively
evangelical at night as well. (Sometimes night services are more Charismatic than
the mornings in evangelical churches.)
17. Dress code so as not to stand
out: Casual to smart.
18. How to get there: Travel toward Geddes St along
South St, turn North.
1. NUMBER OF PEOPLE: 66.
2.
NUMBER OF CHAIRS: 330 (98 large chairs + 232 chairs). (When at Fairholme, there
were 1268 chairs capably of being fitted out into the building and the Pastor
only put out chairs as they were needed which compacted everyone up which gave
the church a really "together" feeling as opposed to having people sit
apart. (AOG Spring do this by way of black curtain dividers which doesn't quite
seem to work, AOG New Hope add the last 3 rows of chairs at the last minute which
works well. Church of Christ (then Margaret St) would rope off sections then open
them up and use ushers to squash people in, which works very well. All these ideas
are excellent church ideas in management.)
*3. Type of person: For researchers
these are an interesting group as they are generally quite well educated but proportionately
includes the unemployed in their "sphere." Are also account types, teachers,
Telstra workers, builders, nurses, checkout operators.
4. Socio-Economic
Status: Medium Low.
5. Amount of kids: 13 0 - 18yo.
6. Ages of people:
15 aged 60+.
7. 25 out of 77 adults were men.
8. Weekly offering published:
$3635 20/8/01.
9. Lateness of people getting to church: -.
**10.
Any other interesting information: On the 30 June 01 most of the office wood framing
had gone up on the then purchased land at South and Greenwattle (South West corner).
Church completion date for the last week Saturday Oct 2001. Their old building
which included 3 houses, near West and Bridge Sts had 3 estimates from a valuer
done and they got the highest price. They shifted from there early 2001. An undiagnosed
millionaire man in Highfields bought it which turned out to be planters of a Buddhist
Temple which the church now is. In the rear hall is a 60 cm stone Buddha. (But,
the bible says "Thou shalt not worship any graven image.")
11. Time there AND date of visit: 17/11/02 9am- 11am. 1 July 2001 9am-11.45am
(Been 30 times over 15 years.)
12. Length of service: Allow 1.5 hours plus
cup of tea.
13. This and other service times: 8.00am; 10am; 6pm.
14.
Preacher: "Leadership team" Roland Sondergeld (In July 2008 Roland Sondergeld had still been preaching but retired before December 2008 but attended the same church in 2009+.)
15. Feeling of building:
Good.
**16. Estimate style of belief: Not necessarily a Charismatic
church but they work with Christian Leaders Network very closely, have Hillsong
worship, are open to Charismatics fellowshipping there of which there are a number.
You could describe then as soft core Calvanists which really means they believe
in "once saved always saved" doctrine.
17. Dress code so
as not to stand out: Casual.
18. Go south along West St, turn west up South
St, cross a railway line, and you'll come to a stop sign at Greenwattle St.
19. ACCEPTANCE IN CHURCH AS A VISITOR: OK.
20. People who talked to me after
the service: Some.
21. Length of time they talked: 1min - 7mins.
22. How
soon do visitors get talked to after service?: Not straight away.
*23.
HOW MUCH CHURCH IS OPEN TO WIDER CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY: Very.
24. Unusual
things about worship: Nothing. You could raise your hands.
25. EMPHASIS OF
MINISTRY: Cell based church. (Home groups)
26. Famous business people: -.
27. Famous people: -.
28. KNOWABLE SONGS: Yes, mostly.
29. Quality
of sound system/ loudness: A new system but it has had it's problems.
30.
Quality of preaching generally: Quite good.
31. Meaningfulness/ depth of
preaching: Quite good.
32. Enjoyment/ lightness of preaching: OK.
33.
Impact/ deepness/ enjoyment of worship: Pretty good.
*34. Amount of home
groups: Many. Some twenty six home groups are here.
35. How to access
home groups: Absolutely ok to see Rolley Sondergeld or eventually network with
friends. Unlike all other churches, your not likely to receive a closed door simply
because the group is "full."
36. Friendliness of home groups: Yes,
definitely.
37. Intention to build: They have finished their building in 2002.
38. Estimate percentage church owned / rented?: They plan to own the building
and land by 2007.
39. Estimate age of building: Built in 2002.
40. Dowdiness
of building outside: Well maintained.
41. Inside?: All finished.
42.
Have sister churches where? See Geddes St and Mary St.
*43. Sunday School
availability: Yes. Please note that Sunday school is BETWEEN the two services.
Not during either service. So when the 8am service ends, the Sunday school begins
and goes until the 10am service starts. So the Sunday school goes between 9.30am
and 10am.
44. Ages availability: 4-12yo.
45. % kids attend: -.
46. Noise of kids at back: Good.
47. Where is bible college? Brisbane and
Sydney
48. Where do kids school? -.
49. How many missionaries do they
support: They directly support 6 Pastors in India and 3 Pastors in Indonesia.
50. What cost? -.
51. What is average they give to missions: -.
52. What
is average they give to local poor? -.
53. International poor? -.
54.
Other emphasis on giving: -.
55. Per head total giving: -.
56. Extent
of other church programs: -.
57. Pastor receive stipend? Yes.
58. How
much? -.
59. Qualifications of Pastor: Most Pastors need to study a bible
college degree but one Pastor studied a few units and taught at Cornerstone which
is a farm / bible school in NSW.
60. Estimated of parishioners complaints.
Perhaps the people got tired of building this new building, it was taxing on all
but is finished now.
61. Estimated ability to resolve parishioners complaints:
OK.
1. NUMBER OF PEOPLE: 121.
2. NUMBER OF CHAIRS: 330 (98 large chairs + 232 chairs).
3. Type of person:
-.
4. Socio-Economic Status: Medium Low.. 5. Amount of kids: 12 0 - 18yo. 6.
Ages of people: 4 aged 60+. 7. Men -.
**8. Weekly offering published:
Income offerings for the year were $196,000 or $3770 / week. (The main costs were
- $89,000 were salaries; car cost $9,000; maanse cost $16,000; missionaries were
given $27,000.)
9. Lateness of people getting to church: 7 at 10.18am.
10. Any other interesting information: .
11. Time there AND date of
visit: 9am-end. 17/11/02 (Been 30 times over 15 years.) At one time 164 people
at 10am May 19th 2002.
**12. Length of service: Allow 1.5 hours plus
get there at 9.30am for a cup of tea BEFORE the service starts!
13.
This and other service times: 10am; 8.00am; 6pm.
14. Preacher: "Leadership
team" Roland Sondergeld. (In July 2008 Roland Sondergeld had still been preaching but retired before December 2008 but attended the same church in 2009+.)
15. Feeling of building: Good.
16. Estimate
style of belief: Evangelical.
17. Dress code so as not to stand out: Casual.
18. Go south along West St, turn west up South St, cross a railway line, and you'll
come to a stop sign at Greenwattle St.
28. KNOWABLE SONGS: There were no
hymns.
SERVICE TIME is 5.45pm in 2008 - 2009.
6pm ChristLife WEST TOOWOOMBA PRESBYTERIAN Greenwattle St and South Sts.
1. NUMBER OF PEOPLE:
72.
2. NUMBER OF CHAIRS: 330 (98 large chairs + 232 chairs).
3. Type
of person: -.
4. Socio-Economic Status: Medium Low.
5. Amount of kids:
5 were 0 - 18yo. 6. Ages of people: 13 aged 60+. 7. Men: -. 8. Weekly offering
published: .
9. Lateness of people getting to church: -.
10. Any other
interesting information: -.
11. Time there AND date of visit: (Been 40 times
over 15 years till 2003.) 12. Length of service: Service ended at 7.22pm, no supper.
13. This and other service times: 6pm; 8.00am; 10am. 14. Preacher: "Leadership
team" Roland Sondergeld. 15. Feeling of building: Good.
16. Estimate
style of belief: Evangelical.
17. Dress code so as not to stand out: Casual.
18. Go south along West St, turn west up South St, cross a railway line, and you'll
come to a stop sign at Greenwattle St.
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