Life of a Priest / Wife of a Priest

By Heather and Gordon Payne, Ladysmith, BC

Heather Payne, Counsellor;
Gordon Payne, Pastor of St Paul’s Anglican Parish, Nanaimo

Michael Zarb, Connie Kurtenbach, François Brassard, Naomi and Chris Diamond sat down with Heather and Gordon Payne and listened to what they had to say about being a married priest working as pastor of a parish and about being the wife of the same. We had given the two main questions to them beforehand, and we put some other questions to them as the conversation went on.
The two main questions were What is life like as a married priest? and What is it like for the wife of a married priest? As we went on, we asked Were you both brought up Anglicans? When was Gordon ordained? Did the change to priest enhance your married life? What is the core of your support system? How does being married help your ministry? Would Heather ever consider belonging to another parish?

Gordon

   I was brought up in the United Church but became an Anglican when I married Heather. So she is personally to blame! In June ‘87, I was ordained a deacon and on December 12, ‘87 I was ordained a priest. So when I was ordained we were already married. When I first told Heather that I felt called to be a priest, she had a very hard time with that. She said that if I felt so called that I should see the Oblate Sisters and try to discern with them if they sensed a calling. If they did, then she would be more open to the idea.
It was the sacramental aspect of the ministry that really drew me. Something, a power that I could not resist, a sense of something, the mystery, the privilege that a priest has in celebrating at the eucharist, providing the sacraments for people. That might be the wrong reason, but it was something that touched me. It was with two Jesuits, Matthew and Dennis Lynn, doing a retreat in Gimli, Manitoba, that I first had a sense of calling. At first, it was not strong, but I always thought that I was to be part of the healing ministry, that it was the major part of the work that God was calling me to do. Even today, a local physician called me saying “Would you see this person because I feel that you are the one to help this person. Perhaps we can work together.” It’s unusual for a physician to do that.
My brother and sisters were not wholly supportive of my being a priest. They may have felt that I was presuming to be holier or high and mighty. They never say so directly, but one sister always says it in a humorous way. I feel that there is a little dig there. However, no one can move me off the foundation that I have. I can feel upset and discouraged, but I feel firmly rooted in the work that God has called me to do.
Life for me as a married priest is wonderful. I feel loved every moment because I have Heather there as a person who will listen to me in my good times and in my challenging times. It would be very lonely if I did not have her there, and I don’t know who I would be talking to. I would probably be going crazy and maybe talking to the bottle.
Being married helps my ministry because I feel strength from Heather; she is very supportive. I feel something good about her presence when she is there at the eucharist, in the congregation, and I know that the people in the parish find it very meaningful when she has an active part, particularly at the healing of the sick. A person who is dying told me recently how much she appreciated it. However, I am not upset when she is not there, and I don’t want her to feel that she has to be there. Indirectly, I suppose, there is an expectation that the priest’s wife and family will be part of the congregation. There have been so many good parts of the ministry, challenging parts, and parts that I did not like. In some, I have been really blessed and I feel very privileged in the work I have been called to and have been able to do. As an archdeacon, I have been able to do work on behalf of the bishop. I think I do some of it very well, but like any human, I make mistakes. Heather has been very supportive in everything that I have been called to do. She underestimates herself. I find her support really great and I can’t imagine what it would be like without her.
Our relationship today is better than it was earlier in our marriage. I feel that I have been called to grow far more in this work than I was as a teacher. Going to Shawnigan Lake School was a great transition for us. Heather reminded me recently of how thankful she is to be here on Vancouver Island. The bishop here was willing to ordain me; the bishop in Rupert’s Land was not very cooperative. What happened there was that the bishop called in all the graduating class to assess them for placement. We knew that he had placed women priests in positions in the city because their husbands were professionally employed in the city or within proximity of the city. Heather made a similar request because she was professionally employed in the city. The bishop took offense to that saying that his wife had always followed him. After that he told me that he did not have anything for me and that I could go back to teaching. I was prepared to do that, but I had put in all my time, energy, and money into this, and I had a call to be a priest. I had a sense that he was punishing us.
Here I have a variety of support systems. I see this group as primary. I can come here and be myself. I can say what I want to say knowing that it will not go any further. I can be who I am and it is something that Heather and I do together and she is happy about that. I also have wonderful wardens. It has taken a long time to get a team to where there is consensus of support. They walk with me through everything and are very supportive. We have wonderful discussions. I get very good support also from the parish secretary. There are also many supportive people in the parish. I am building support in the ministerial association too. Some of them I could go to and they would be right there with me. I have the support of my fellow archdeacons. I can’t ask for much more than that.
I know some priests who do not have anyone to go home to, to talk to, to share some of the pain with, the joys, the satisfaction, or the excitement. Some RC priests don’t come to anything where we can support them. They won’t do anything with the clergy of other denominations. I don’t know what the reasons are because that is not shared. I am not seen as a priest by some RC priests for one thing.
It’s some years until I retire. Then, I always thought I would like to do interims when a parish is looking for a new pastor. I would like to work with the people and help them put the previous rector in the past and to help them move forward with the new person. That’s the kind of work I would like to do later. We may stay here and go to the cottage from May to September. And now we have a grandchild on the way.

Heather

   When Gordon and I were going to be married, I only asked to be married in the Anglican Church. I didn’t expect him to buy the whole ball of wax and become an Anglican. I grew up in the Anglican Church; we went every Sunday. My parents were involved, for the church was very important to them. My dad’s grandfather was a minister, and my mother’s grandfather was a minister, both in the Anglican Church. It was an important part of their lives, an important part of my life. Like many others, I was away from it for a while until we had a baby and then we came back. It was important to us to go to church, and we had a wonderful church. Lots of positive things happened.
We had several ministers and we ended up with John. Through him we experienced renewal in the church. My mom was part of that too and we shared a lot with her. She went to Cursillo; all our family went; Gordon’s mom and dad went. Those were wonderful experiences. But I have this love/hate relationship with the church- I love the sacraments, but I don’t like all the people. It isn’t like they are all bad and I don’t think it would matter which church I went to. It’s the church setting, the group mentality. I have my walls up. I do not make close relationships there easily. I don’t have a lot of trust in that setting. I haven’t and I don’t think I would, even if Gordon were not the priest in the parish. It goes back further than that.
My father was on the vestry of our church, and he did not have very much self-confidence. He wasn’t well and he got voted off and I can remember that he got very hurt over that. I had no boundaries as a child and I remember absorbing that and feeling terribly hurt. I was about 13. Another thing is that my sister couldn’t learn because she had an illness such that she could not absorb any protein and her brain did not develop. She was bright. The church would not let her take the confirmation classes and be confirmed. In those days, you couldn’t take communion if you were not confirmed. You had to memorize the catechism, and she could not do that. That made me furious. Before she died, the pastor did give her communion; he was good to us. But that whole thing p’d me off.
Gordon and I had seen another sad experience in the church when a very good priest friend had been booted out of our church by the usual congregational process. The parish had an associate priest who went around when our friend was away. The associate went around dropping little comments such as “Does he look very stressed to you?” and “I don’t think he is very well.” It was all very sneaky. Soon, the congregation was thinking that our friend was not capable of doing the job. Eventually, it turned out for the best because he and his wife came out to Vancouver Island and she lived better. But I took on her pain and I was mad at the church. Our friend was a man and he had his faults. But he did his best, and in the end after all those years in the ministry, it was ‘Goodbye Charlie’ and he got booted out. I thought “Why would anyone want to be a priest in the church? It is a thankless horrible job.”
When Gordon first said to me that he wanted to be a priest, I told him to bug off. He had a good job with the summer off; he was happy doing his job as far as I could see. Why did he need to do this? I could not understand why he had to do this other thing. I was really very angry. Gordon felt he was called but when he told me, I’m sure he felt he was about to be sent for! I was furious and I did not want to hear about it or talk about it. I told him to discern with the Oblate Sisters if there was a calling. Gordon did not bring it up again for two years and then very gingerly. By that time, I thought there were not many choices left.
Sometimes I feel that when Gordon says that he likes to see me at the eucharist that I am being manipulated (though I know that he does not mean it that way) for then I have to go and I don’t want to feel that I have to go. I don’t care how the rest of the parish feels about whether I am there or not. When I am there, it is because I want to be there. I find it offensive that there is a question in a priest’s ordination that the priest will bring the family with him. I don’t expect Gordon to have anything to do with my job.
The bishop in Rupert’s Land was not willing to place Gordon. He said he was giving the job “to someone more deserving”. Gordon’s Shawnigan lake School job was the perfect thing because it wasn’t like a church and the congregation changed regularly. They didn’t care if they ever saw me, and it was an instant community. We made friends right away. If people sometimes complained about this and that, Gordon who is very sensitive would be hurt and I would be too. I was terrified how much worse it might be when we moved to the parish. But the good part is that Gordon has grown enormously and is still growing. That may not have happened in another place. It’s either grow or die. I am pretty reluctant to grow.
Gordon has had to learn that if people don’t agree with him, it is not necessarily a personal thing. Even if they make it personal, he cannot make it personal no matter how strongly they feel. It doesn’t mean that they have to be right and Gordon wrong or that it is personally directed towards him. Nine times out of ten, it is some issue in their background that is causing them trouble.
There is something in me that has never been resolved. It is not St Paul’s. It used to be the fact that Gordon was the priest at the church, but that is not the issue now. I have grown past that. I don’t like the organized church. I am rebellious. I hate rules and as you know there are more rules than you can shake a stick at and I just think that they are stupid. Gordon likes to follow rules but they annoy me. I wouldn’t be without a church. I love the eucharist; I do not care for the social, the pack, part. I like doing the healing ministry because it is immediate. it is right there. Getting involved is not part of it; going back to ask how people are is not appropriate; it is never brought up again unless the person does. So that is one thing I can do. During the eucharist, the volunteers after they have been blessed by Gordon, go into Gordon’s office and people come who want special healing prayers for themselves or for someone else. We lay hands on them and pray.
So I started not liking the idea of Gordon being a priest, but now I feel that he is doing what really gives him life. That is important to me and I have adjusted to it. I don’t know how a priest would do without a spouse. There are so many things that happen that can’t be told to anyone else.