Re: [pf] Visions of the future (Jay Hanson)

At 13:35 17/09/99 -0500, Nan Hildreth wrote:
> .. how depressed .. must feel!  
>Cecile Andrews says in Circle of Simplicity that's how the materialist
>worldview or religion or whatever it is, makes us feel.   Last Sunday I
>posted her comments on it. 
>   But got no comment.  David, is that one you skipped over?   What does it
>take to get your attention?  A two-by-four of controversy?
>  Do it for your own mental health and that of your family. 
>

**  Nan, I have a high regard for this list and the people on it, and
consider some of the things you call controversy (though I don't) to risk
at least side-tracking discussion and probably turning-off members whose
continued interest is important to me.
**  I do not consider trying to "forcibly convert" someone to your own way
of thinking to be suitable for a list discussion, for those reasons.
**  For me, controversy, debate, argument etc. (the name tully has an Irish
origin that includes a stronger, more physical aspect of this), are
valuable in clarifying one's (typically woolly) thinking, and I welcome it.
It often works in both directions; both parties benefit, and come out of
the debate refreshed, wiser, with a wider world-view.

**  For contrast, I'll do no more than quote your words: 
(1) What does it take to get your attention?  A two-by-four of controversy?
(2) Do it for your own mental health and that of your family.


>Materialist's Credo
>I believe in the material universe as the only and ultimate reality, 
>a universe controlled by fixed physical laws and blind chance.  
>
>I maintain that all ideas about God or gods, enlightened beings, prophets
>and saviors, or nonphysical beings or forces are superstitions and
>delusions ... Like the rest of life, my life and my consciousness have no
>objective purpose, meaning or destiny. 
>
**  (Keeping this short, because it isn't helping most list-members think
of and work towards a positive future: )
**  That's somewhat distorted, but close to what I now believe. I have
stated my version in my own words in earlier posts. However, I go no
further than stating what I believe; I never try to bludgeon someone into
accepting it - that wouldn't work anyway, with anyone whose opinion I
value. I punished my two boys when they were very young, by smacking their
hand with my hand (I had stopped when our youngest came along), and I am
not sorry I did it; however, that is an intrinsically heirarchical thing,
and quite objectionable when attempted between adults, whether they are
boss-and-worker, gangs, police, or Indonesian militias in East Timor.


>Jay ... is frustrated at even ENVISIONING how to get to a positive future. 
> 
>But his type cannot FORGET the trends.  So their minds turn to rough words,
>schemes, and tactics. ... try too hard. ... try even harder.
> Push leads to shove and there is a pitched battle. 

**  Since I've pointed this out before, Nan, I'll simply state: you have
several virtues, but one of your two main faults, as far as this list is
concerned (in my opinion), is to far too often categorise, "pidgeonhole"
someone, acting as if they are the caricature you've drawn, rather than the
real multidimensional person.

**  The above quote from you sounds like pidgeonholing a whole bunch of
people, who could quite likely be different from you in many ways. I
seriously doubt that Jay is the way you've painted him. 

** And anyway, why talk about Jay and not about the points he considers
important?


>>So now I understand why Nan went off on Hanson; ...
>
>Looking for support, I convened an email community of 20 or 30 Jays, but
>some not as kind. ...  A week and a half ago, they ran me off.  
> As co-listowner I had defended their free speech and now they zip my lip. 
>  
> ...
>Yep, I need a hand.   I have tried being nice to them.   Machiavellian
>little snakes. 
> ...
>Both of groups of us sin against humility. 
>
>I'm venting a bit. 

**  This is a good reason to post to the PF list. There _are_ times when we
should be there for you, Nan. This is obviously one of them.
**  I'm just sorry I didn't respond sooner. 
I hope the no-longer-being-listowner didn't get you down for too long.

**  I don't know what "tough love" means and I am sure it is used sometimes
as a description that attempts to defend something like oppression, but
perhaps this post can be considered as showing it truly.

David.
(David MacClement) d1v9d @ bigfoot.com (remove spaces)
http://www.emucities.com.au/member/davd/index.html#top
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