Re: [pf] running off-the-grid, on solar power. New batteries.

At 13:37 15/1/2002 -0500, tully wrote {at:
http://csf.colorado.edu/mail/pfvs/2002I/msg00140.html } :-
>As you probably know, David, I am watching these developments of yours
with great interest.  While I believe that solar cells themselves will
pretty much last indefinitely, I am still concerned about the battery part
of the solar equation.  How long do you think these batteries will last you
if they are run every day, before you will have to replace them?  Do you
know anything about what is involved in battery recycling and how noxious
that process might be?  Is it something we could do ourselves?  What might
be the expected life of an inverter?  I'm worried that we are replacing one
system with an equally toxic and industrialized alternative.
>
>In thinking about the reverse running of one's grid electrical meter, I'm
wondering if networking solar panels might be a better alternative, where
many of us start supplying the grid with power and slowly (or maybe not so
slowly) racheting down the use of petroleum based fuels for dark periods.
I see batteries as the new problem with toxic disposal and was wondering
what your thoughts on this are.
>

· You're right to be concerned enough to enquire into it. There are several
parts to an answer, with various of those given different weights,
depending on one's circumstances. (I'm pointing out that the choice isn't
just right-or-wrong, bad-or-good, etc.)

· The main point is that yes, grid-connected "running your meter
backwards", and with a big enough renewable-energy system on your property,
getting paid to supply power to the grid, is the best option, by quite a
long way. For one thing, the inverter can be quite small (low up-front
owner-investment, low resource-cost, little problem with disposal if/when
they fail).

· For your case, however, doing that would to some extent limit where you
would be able to park your truck while living in it; you'd have to have a
utility-supplied meter to run backward, so you couldn't easily be away from
the grid (using radio or satellite dish for internet access).

· As far as being off-the-grid is concerned (the above, and what we'll be
doing with our retirement house - the grid is too far away; also we don't
want to pay constant utility-set "line charges"), some sort of storage -
anything from 2-3 hours to several cloudy 24-hour days - is necessary IMO,
for light(s) on winter evenings, as a minimum. My wife and I will be quite
happy (if necessary) to have a single 7 watt CF (compact fluorescent) on in
the evenings, and even on cloudy days our 10 75-watt-peak (Wp) panels will
provide us with that much charge into the batteries. That was how I chose
the number, and that they should be single-crystal type.
  So we (and you, if you're living beside a forestry road on the Olympic
Peninsula) must have at least a few batteries, though the truck battery
alone could be enough if you do what I described above. We have used the
equivalent of that with a single Solarex (multi-crystalline) 64-Wp panel in
our barn; I could also, with care (e.g. going to bed an hour or two early
if we've had a string of cloudy days), turn our car-radio on in the morning
for 10 minutes of news and weather.

· Now; the question of battery materials: "toxic", "recycling", "noxious"
"industrialized alternative".
  There are alternatives to lead-acid batteries (alkaline: nickel-iron,
nickel-cadmium, and more recent {zinc ?} types).
 The words "toxic" and "poison" immediately say: "bad!, don't go near it!"
to most people.
  To me, such things as lead, arsenic (& strychnine), cadmium and other
heavy metals are only a danger when they are ingested at above a certain
amount. Lead is a danger if its soluble salts get into the water supply
(e.g. in Rome 2000 years ago) or stomach-acid-soluble paint flakes are
eaten by children, or if lead compounds are emitted into the air (and
water) via car engines running on tetra-ethyl-lead-added gasoline.
  
· There is a danger to the people doing the recycling of lead, since it's
melted and produces fumes. India does a lot of that, and I know a guy who
used to do it here in Auckland (he now runs Able Solar) before he quit
because (i) of the danger from the fumes, and (ii) imported recycled
batteries became too cheap for him to compete with.

· My general attitude is: care is needed. For example, all lead batteries
can be collected (e.g. by the municipal authority; North Shore City does)
and the recycling done in a way that condenses all the lead fumes before
releasing any exhaust. It's not difficult, and the amount of fumes in the
first place will depend on the temperature - I have melted lead in a tin
lid on our electric stove here, to make a fishing sinker for the boys.

· Further, in contrast to the other "poisons", lead and tin have been
around and used by humans for thousands of years; the metal occurs in
nature and is easily available in certain places (e.g. Cornwall).

· So I personally see no insoluble problem with lead-acid batteries. Just
that care in the making and disposing of them is needed.

· Newer alternatives I know little about. I have used Ni-Fe and Ni-Cd
rechargeable batteries - they produce a higher current than a similar
weight of lead-acid battery, but have a "memory" effect - and believe they
aren't usually recycled. So the disposal of them is a not-well-solved
problem, IMO.

· I know little of the making of sulphuric acid; currently it's a
highly-industrialised product used for making chemical fertilisers and in
many other processes, but I don't believe it is intrinsically an industrial
product. That is, I believe it has been made for at least 500 years.
  Just because something now-a-days is high-tech, like building sailing
yachts, doesn't mean the activity itself, sailing, is un-sustainable.
 ----
{Google:
clinker "David MacClement" site:csf.colorado.edu : Results 1-6 of 6 ;
glass "David MacClement" -"Caroline -Glass" site:csf.colorado.edu : 1-31 }
 ----


· Now, tully's: "Is [recycling lead] something we could do ourselves?
  What might be the expected life of an inverter?"

· I wouldn't recommend recycling lead, but as indicated it's not
impossible. Another thing: I don't presently know what the physical
differences are, between deep-cycle batteries (for renewable-energy
storage) and starter batteries; I just know that if you use ordinary car or
truck batteries for such 100%-80%-100%-80%- cycling energy storage, "they
don't last long" (whatever that means).

· As always, "an inverter" means many things. I bought my present $4,300
Dutch-made (6000W-start; 3000W-30minutes; 2000W-continuous) inverter
because it has lasted so well, in the experience of the long-time-in-the
-business solar gear supplier.
  I see no reason why it won't last the rest of my life. For one thing, it
has lots of internal protections, for if/when it's mistreated.
  I'm not sure there _is_ a "life" for well-made electrical gear. Right
now, beside me, is an old tube radio that still runs; its dial lights
(incandescent) burned out years ago, but it has been running for decades.

· Got to go; someone else wants to use this computer.


 ------ Original message ------
At 06:39 16/1/2002 +1300, David MacClement wrote {at:
http://csf.colorado.edu/mail/pfvs/2002I/msg00139.html } :-

>Five weeks ago, at 09:27 10/12/2001 +1300 I wrote {at:
http://csf.colorado.edu/mail/pfvs/2001IV/msg01521.html }, with title:
>[pf] computer now running off-the-grid, on solar power. :-
>>
>>· The batteries are now on poor shape; after being given a good charge,
they drop to 11.6 volts when not being charged, instead of staying at a
lead-acid battery's ~12.5V
>>
>· At the beginning of last week I paid NZ$850 for 4 six-volt deep-cycle
batteries (R220 ...
>
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David.
David MacClement davd @ ihug.co.nz (remove spaces)
http://www.geocities.com/davd.geo/index.html#top
http://davd.tripod.com/GrAPR-020111.html#top
********************************************

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: csf@moscow.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://igc.topica.com/u/?aVxifP.a2yAZH
Or send an email to: positive-futures-unsubscribe@igc.topica.com

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^================================================================