[pf] tully's plans for her tipi in the Olympics, WA

[I've been trying to write this for a few days now, but the others have
been around too much. However, my son and daughter were up all last night
using our two computers (they went to bed at about 5:30 AM when I got up),
and Bera stopped playing Caesar III and went to work on the 6:30 AM bus, so
I've got the computer to myself.  D.]

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http://csf.colorado.edu/mail/pfvs/jun99/msg02066.html
  is David MacClement's: 
Re: [pf] Re fear: "sanity is such a hindrance!", 
posted (by Topica) on 17 November 1999 (at 02:43 UTC)
 [I lost my original e-mails; these are from the PF archive:
http://csf.colorado.edu/mail/pfvs/ ; the Jun-Dec section. ]

**  It is commenting on tully's plans to set up her tipi on 
the Olympic Peninsula, Washington State. It has:
[tully: ]
> ... materials that could be made if necessary.  In fact, I'm trying 
>to find ways to provide everything from what could be made in the wild. 
> I can start with canvas and go to skins, bladders, or intestines if 
>necessary.
>
[ I said, back in November: ]
**  IMO you should count on using copper or plastic pipe, for all sorts of
things. Copper lasts hundreds of years and won't corrode if you (1) keep
the outside dry, and (2) use soft (e.g. pH-7 rain) water on the inside. I
would start with plastic garden hose for the first year, while you're still
moving things to their best position, then gradually convert it to copper.
It's all very well to go the romantic route, "back to the land" and all
that, but there are limits to what hardship you have to put up with.


>That said, I'm still looking at purchasing two Siemens 48 watt 
>solar panels. 

**  I'll send this now and deal with the rest later; the rest of the
family's around now.
David.

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[David, 10 AM 14 Jan 2000 +1300: ]
**  I never did get around to commenting on the rest. 
    If (when?!) this happens again, please ask me whether I want to
continue; I could well have just forgotten, as I did then.
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http://csf.colorado.edu/mail/pfvs/jun99/msg02040.html
  ( tully's original letter: 
Re: [pf] Re fear, 
sent: 14 November 1999 20:45 UTC )
   continues:
[tully: ]
That said, I'm still looking at purchasing two Siemens 48 watt solar
panels.  I understand that with enough big Zener diodes, that it would
power equipment safely directly, using no batteries at all for energy
storage (in case I couldn't replace them). 
 I think with that much power, that even on cloudy days in northern
latitudes like the Olympics, I'd have enough current to run a 12 volt car
stereo system (I can't give up my music unless we have a total planetary
disaster) and a laptop computer during the day, though maybe not at the
same time. 

**  You can't count on that much power. The 48 is probably W(sub)p or peak
watts. Years ago I was recharging a car battery during the day, to run an
11W compact fluorescent (with integral inverter in the base) at night. I
used (still do) a Solarex 64 Wp panel, but found that (in full midday
summer sun, here at latitude 37 - really hot!) I didn't get the expected 5
A @ 12.6-13.5 V, but rather 4.0 to 4.2 A; i.e. "64 W" was actually ~54
watts. That's about 85% of the "peak watt" value. And of course, all the
rest of the day and year you'd be getting less, to say nothing of the
increased atmospheric absorption at the latitude of Quinault (47 deg. 30),
in the high-rain-fall northern district of the Olympic Peninsula, WA. So my
guess is that you should count on not 96 W but maybe 50-60 W on a typical
sunny day (with the panels facing the sun, i.e. maybe on a rotatable stand,
above the reach of bears). 
**  I've just checked the open-circuit voltage of that panel in this
morning's bright sun (~8:30 AM Daylight-Saving time): V(o-c)=21V, while
when connected to my nearly charged "12 V" boat battery it puts out ~15 V.
So your Zeners would have to dump enough current to make the panel's
internal resistance bring the voltage down to their setting, maybe 13.4 V.
To me, a far better answer is to expect to use a lead-acid battery to
stabilise your voltage. This technology is pretty primitive; a blacksmith
(or you yourself) could recycle the lead into "new" plates when the battery
gets too old (or ill-treated). And others would also be doing the same
thing, I'm sure, so there'd be a sort of local industry, in the "breakdown
of our current economic system" scenario.
** What wattage are your stereo (speakers at moderate volume; or
earphones), and your laptop? Some (colour screen) laptops take a lot of
power, to get the speed many customers want.
**  I monitored the solar panel with cloud shadow covering it, and found
that on a mostly-light-overcast day I only got about 0.3 A - generally
somewhat less. Still charging the battery (no other load), but very slowly,
i.e. about 1/10 the average clear sun rate. Not enough for your stereo, I
think.
    However, I believe newer solar cells with greater efficiency (and maybe
a "bloomed" surface) can get you more energy under those conditions. But
50% more than 0.3 A is only 0.45 A - still not much.
 

[tully: ]
  With a single battery, I could run at night.  I don't see that I'd need
electric for much else. 

**  For me, from experience in the barn in 1996, being able to read at
night was my first priority for electricity; after a string of cloudy days
I would even not turn on the car radio (in the barn, running from the same
batteries) for the news (and to hear the familiar voices of our National
Radio announcers) in order to save battery energy for a light in the 
evening.


[tully: ]
 I'd be sure to have access to one of the glacier fed streams or rivers in
the Olympics which would provide any refrigeration I'd need.

**  You might be right, but glacier-fed doesn't have to mean cold, if the
stream is small and the ground is warm (in the summer, when you might look
for refrigeration). Elsewhere I've talked about not needing much cooling
for keeping your food. The classic method is to not kill (e.g. chooks) and
cook until necessary, and to bake bread or milk the cow as needed. In
Africa and India one expected to see people cycling to market with their
live chooks to sell, or sometimes carrying them on the mammy-lorry.
    In the '40s we had no fridge but used a "meat-safe": a box in a shaded
breezy place, made of a frame with fly-screen sides and door. For extra
cooling, e.g. for milk (straight from the cow - I sometimes had to wait
when I went for the milk in the morning, for the farmer to finish milking),
we'd put the billy-can or jug on a large plate full of water, with a wet
cotton cloth over it, dipping into the water. The breeze took away the
hotter water molecules that escaped into the air, leaving the milk cool.

**  By the way, I do believe a certain minimum of physics knowledge is
valuable for anyone and everyone. As well as being just nice to know.


[tully: ]
Been thinking about washing machines.  Check this idea out.  Sew up some
canvas shaped like a pillowcase large enough to fill with clothes, water
and detergent (or homemade fat/ash-lye soap or soap-root if detergent is
unavailable).  Pull the open end together and tie tightly to hold the water
in.  Put the bag on the floor in front of a chair and use a foot to rock
and roll the bag for 5 minutes or so while singing (or dancing) to some
appropriately rhythmed music.  Dump the wash water down the shower outlet
(I'll get to that in a minute) and refill with water to rinse by the rock
and roll method.  Squeeze the water out by rolling up the bag toward the
open end.  I don't see that this would do any worse than a front loader
washing machine, which has no agitator.  The bag could also function as a
hamper until full.  Kaleopono, you think it would work?

**  I read this bit to my son Peter; we were both impressed!
    I agree it would work, but my method's easier: in the tub you have your
shower in (you've seen the 3-ft wide galvanised-iron wash-bowls made like a
bucket? - you can stand in them), when you're nearly finished, you put the
clothes in the collected water and tromp on them, singing if you aren't too
cold. There's no need for powerful e.g. alkaline ("lye") soap, since it's
mainly sweat and a little dirt to be got out. So a little rinse for your
hands and feet is all.
    Your squeeze-"dry"ing should work reasonably well, but I usually
hand-wring each item. This might depend on whether you've got lots of
water; if you're beside a stream and your soap is natural (or very
biodegradable) you could just leave them in the stream for 10 minutes to
rinse ("hanging" from a short clothes-line in the water between tent pegs),
then hang them up to dry, dripping wet. Not in the winter though: there
aren't enough sunny hours in the day to get soaking-wet clothes dry in one
day. Assuming you're using cotton and wool; polypropylene is different.


[tully: ]
Shower.  Basically another bag system, with gravity fed cold from the top
of the tipi and a separate hot bag, filled from water heated over the fire
and hung overhead.  Piping could be canvas tubes.  A simple whittled wood
valve rig could be made at the bottom of each tube to regulate flow of each
temperature into a collection bag which could be simple open weave material
or skin with holes punched in it to allow the water to flow out forming a
shower.  A muslin cloth could form a shower curtain if one was deemed
necessary.  The floor could be specially slanted at that point, and covered
in canvas, with a tube at the lower end (with shoulders of material around
it and a ring holding it open at the inside end), running under the tipi
inner and outer covers, and laying flat outside when not filled with
draining water.  Outside, the ground could either simply be trenched to
direct the graywater to a planting area or a gravel filled pit could be
dug, to let it seep into the ground.

**  Good methods for grey-water; we use the second, at our farm. The amount
of water I use is tiny; just throwing it on the grass outside would do; it
would be beneficial, if I sloshed it in various places - the grass-eaters
(sheep here, deer there) would love it.
**  But your showering method's too fancy; if you're on your own, why not
take your shower outdoors? (With or without the sort of shower-curtain
screen you saw in M.A.S.H.) Wait for a calm, mild day, and if there's snow,
put down a small raised slatted wooden platform first. There's no need to
shower every day (or even every second day); I never have, and no-one's
commented. Now-a-days, with little hard work and sweating, I sometimes wait
a week when things intervene (or I forget). _no_problem_!


[Arianna: ]
>I also believe that choices made out of fear ultimately 
>limit our growth, but have not yet figured out how to overcome ALL 
>those fears...  Best to everyone,  Arianna

Arianna, fear is much easier to overcome when you are crazy to begin with
...  sanity is such a hindrance.   ;)


**  Marvellous!

David. (Sorry again for the long delay!)
(David MacClement) davd@ihug.co.nz 
www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/3142/Pg1-AD11.html
 or better: http://www.emucities.com.au/member/davd/
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