Re: [pf] Law, civil and criminal; Gary's question.

At 06:21 9/7/2001 -0400, Gary Barrett wrote:
>David, you say:
>
>"This whole system of laws, police, courts, JPs and so on is all a
convention, dependent on the particular bunch of people who agree to (most
of the time) abide by that set of laws, so as to have a generally peaceful
and prosperous life. Very little to do with philosophy, ethics, "right and
wrong" and so on."
>
>You lost me here, David.  I agree that laws are conventions.  But IMO
these laws rest solidly upon the values, beliefs, and ethics of those who
create them.  
>

· I wondered about how clear it was, after I re-read my comment above.

· I didn't give enough emphasis to: "dependent on _the_ _particular_ bunch
of people ...".

· I was using “philosophy, ethics, "right and wrong" ..” to refer to
something common to virtually all of humanity, here, a rather small but
important group of concepts that may not be limited to homo sapiens
sapiens.  Homo sapiens Neanderthalensis? Whales & other sea mammals?
Elephants? Certain parrots? We don't currently know, so our opinions can be
no more than opinions.

· Betsy said ".. but the four-fold song is the song of all the Earth. The
way she put it, none of these songs is wrong or bad---they are all good. It
is good to celebrate your own being, that of your people, and of all people."

· And I'm sure a dolphin may well feel care and concern for a human in
trouble in the sea. It works in both directions, though human knowledge is
(IMO) wider and more comprehensive than that of the other mammals, so I'm
guessing the range of the three-fold and four-fold songs is specific to
humans.
  I have no doubt that _some_ non-homo-sapiens-sapiens have an
understanding of "right and wrong". Speculatively, even a religion?


· To repeat, I don't disagree with Gary; I was using _those_ words in a way
different from most (possibly in an academic way). Perhaps, for good
communication, I shouldn't, or should at least explain each time.
  On the other hand, I agree with Gary when he said: "laws rest solidly
upon the values, beliefs, ... powerful though they may be, are an outgrowth
of one's particular worldview."

David.
(David MacClement) davd@ihug.co.nz 
http://www.geocities.com/davd.geo/index.html#top
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