At 02:00 PM 2003-11-05 -0500, Sharon Flesher wrote: Help! We just had our parent-teacher conferences last night and my little first-grader, Leah, has been labeled as "extremely gifted." I don't know what to do. The teacher is worried that she's not getting an appropriate education. I don't know what an appropriate education is or how to provide it for her. I've been upset all day, with images of her up in a bell tower shooting at her classmates. Everything in my experience has been that people labeled "extremely gifted" tend to have muchos problemos. I have long been afraid this would happen. I've known from the time she started speaking that Leah is a very unusual child. She has incredible creativity and imagination; her inner life is almost an entity of its own (she even refers to "my imagination" as if it's a separate being). She is wired differently from the rest of the family. Now it appears that part of this wiring gives her exceptional academic ability as well. So what does this have to do with LIM? I'm wondering if any other parents on the list have faced this issue, and if so, how did you engage it in a way that is consistent with your values? Obviously, I want to be a good parent and provide my daughter with the nourishment she needs, but I want to do it in a way that maintains the integrity of our values. To be specific, $6,000/year tuition for private schools is out of the question. Homeschooling is possible down the road, but for now, the 1st and 2nd grade teachers at her school have much more to offer her than I do. Her current teacher says she's been trying to give Leah assignments more appropriate to her abilities, but Leah is savvy to what's going on and resists it; she wants to do what her classmates are doing. I just don't know what to do! Sharon Flesher Traverse City, Michigan U.S.A. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_ At 01:34 PM 2003-11-05 -0600, Diane Fitzsimmons wrote: How about some dubious advice from a person who has never had this situation? :^) My best friend in high school was extremely gifted but socially retarded. In those days we would have assumed it was because parents didn't give their children a well-rounded life or pushed them enough to be social. Now that I'm several years down the road, been a mother myself and also science has made some new discoveries, I'm convinced that part of it, as you say, is wiring. First, off, I want to say that her gift is a blessing, and try to view it as such. Now I'm going to say all the negative things that probably won't do much to make you feel better. I find that many teachers today throw around the term "gifted" too much. Is the teacher's assessment based on any kind of testing? Or is it because your daughter has an unusual personality or classroom habits that give that picture? Maybe your daughter is just plain old smart, but not crazy smart and therefore a candidate for the UT Clock Tower. Gifted children are not gifted at everything. What are your daughter's weaknesses? I would look at giving her experiences in the areas she does not easily achieve in (of course, making sure that she is not getting the impression that you expect her to excel in *everything*.) For instance, does she stink in athletics? Hate crafts? Is reluctant to be around other children? Try to be matter-of-fact about her giftedness. I've known some parents of gifted children that have been truly obnoxious, wearing it as a badge of pride as if it was anything more than the luck of biology that their kid is born that way. They also seem to think that makes their child that much better than any of the other blue-collar slobs in the class. Try to get the teachers to be matter-of-fact about her giftedness. I'll never forget the school assembly I had to sit through as the gifted first-grader in my son's class got to lecture us ad nauseum on Mars. Unless she's truly brilliant, resist the urge to let her skip grades. There are many special programs for gifted children intended to augment their regular classes. In that sense, gifted children are just another form of special ed kid, ones who are "mainstreamed" into most classes. She might be pulled out for calculus in fourth grade, or go to a summer camp at Duke, etc. Encourage her to eat more Pop Tarts and watch "Scooby Doo." :^) In other words, let her be a kid. I speak somewhat from experience here. I have one child who has a tendency to be anal retentive. I have worked hard to teach her to be a lazy slob. :^) OK, you guys know I'm joking somewhat, but those of you out there with similar tendencies know what I'm talking about. Biology may make our personality a certain way, but we can adopt certain behaviors that can minimize some of our negative tendencies such as worrying over minor things such as whether one had made the bed correctly, or being reluctant to talk to peers, or taking criticism of one's lunch too seriously. And, just remember, Sharon, that your daughter is not truly gifted in the eyes of your community - that full page in the newspaper is for athletes, not scholars. Diane Fitzsimmons Norman, Okla. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_ At 02:48 PM 2003-11-05 -0500, Molly Williams wrote: Hi Sharon, Speaking not as a parent but as a kid who was labelled similarly when I was younger -- * I learned to read at age 3 and was precocious intellectually and socially, so my parents started me in 1st grade a year early at age 5. I was always about a year younger than my classmates. * Since both my parents are readers, they were very encouraging and supportive, without being pushy, about reading fiction and non-fiction from the time I was a toddler. They encouraged me to research the answers to my own questions. I cannot remember NOT having a library card and using the library extensively. * My parents kept me in public school, although I was given the choice in 8th grade to switch to a private (expensive, elite) school; I looked at it but turned it down because I wanted to be with my friends. * Throughout elementary school, I was enrolled, by my own choice, in enrichment classes on Saturday mornings (two I recall were on mathematics and on birds, including a complete dissection of a dove when I was 8 or 9). * When I was about 13, I spent a couple of summers teaching reading, math, and swimming to learning disabled kids at a camp in town. * I took Advanced Placement courses throughout high school, and also studied other subjects on my own. I think homeschooling, or homeschooling as an adjunct, is a good idea, along with enrichment classes through the school system or outside it. My parents were very supportive of education and of any interests I wanted to pursue, no matter how eccentric or frivolous or inappropriate they may have seemed, and they didn't push me towards one course of study over another. They didn't choose AP courses for me; I chose them. They also did not limit or censor my intake of resources to 'age-appropriate' ones; if I wanted to read a book with adult content when I was 8, I was allowed and encouraged to do it, even if my mother had to fight the librarian to get it into my hands. I think this is really important for parents of all kids, not just academically 'gifted' ones, to remember, that what's sustainable is a kid's internally generated passion. Kids will pursue (study, explore, gain skills for, make sacrifices for, make time for) what truly interests them. If you keep her in this school, I would support Leah in doing the same work her classmates are doing, and at the same time provide additional fun opportunities for learning outside of school, which I'm sure you already do. I would also ask, as her parents, 'what's the point of education?' What do you want Leah to gain from formal or informal education? To the extent that you answer that question differently than her teachers might, your itinerary and choices will diverge from the teacher's. ~ Molly _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_ At 10:15 AM 2003-11-06 +1300, David wrote: · I'm from an earlier generation where kids were not labelled, even the mildly handicapped ones. · However, I regard myself as directly comparable with Molly, even to the way my parents (my mother; my father wasn't around till age 23), treated me. · In my one-room schoolhouse in Collins Bay, eastern Ontario in the mid-50s, the teacher was careful to treat me as not-a-lot-different from the other kids (though I was something of a class star at spelling). She was just glad I could be left alone to get on with whatever I was learning. · Recently I've come to realise that, with my introverted nature, that was the best thing for all of them to do. · Even when I was a senior undergraduate (at McMaster, Hamilton, Ontario), I couldn't tell whether the reason I seemed to be different from most others in class was because I was smarter or dumber than them. The IQ test I took at age 29 when supplying a _lot_ of details to the Introduction Agency (in Toronto) that ended up bringing me and my wife together, was the first I had ever had (and the result was higher than I had expected but similar to hers) · I regard my upbringing as totally satisfactory, largely based on my being encouraged to follow my own interests within stringent financial limits. But also because I wasn't treated as the freak I now consider myself to be. · So that's my advice (like Molly's, I think); let Leah get on with it! She is quite capable of teaching herself, and shouldn't be interfered-with. David. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_ At 02:39 PM 2003-11-06 -0500, Sharon Gordon wrote: Perhaps the best thing here is that Leah has a family that is not your average keep up with the Jones sort of family. Your flexibility and enjoyment of things off the beaten path will add to her learning pleasure throughout her life. One of the best resources I know of for gifted students is SENG http://www.sengifted.org/ . Reading the books they recommend is a big help in understanding how to work with and support a gifted child's academic and social needs. They also have a fabulous conference every year with seminars for the parents and a sort of seminar/camp program for the children. This gives the kids a chance to meet and enjoy other bright kids like themselves. Once you have had a chance to do some reading and thinking you might work with Leah's teacher and the gifted student coordinator for your school system to develop an IEP (individual education plan) for Leah. If the teacher has some other reasonably bright students in the class, it might help for them to be doing more advanced work too. This would help set up an expectation in the classroom that it's ok for different students to be working on different things, and would help in not making Leah feel like she is the *only* one doing something different. At some point she may also come to realize that the different things she is allowed to do are much more interesting to her than the standard class activities. So the joy in this may allow her to be more comfortable with doing some things other than what the class is doing. Before I continue, I should probably offer the disclaimer that I have been where Leah is and have also taught gifted students in the classroom and in private tutoring. I had teachers who worked well with gifted students as well as those who were indifferent, obstructive, or even unfortunately abusive. So I can give examples and suggestions from a variety of perspectives. One thing to consider is the things she can learn now that make a big difference in her success at them. For instance, you can study the geology of Mars at any age that it interests you and learn pretty much the same amount of info. The younger you are, the more successfully you can learn foreign languages and pick up an accurate accent. For starters I'd recommend the software CD with the Kids 10-N-1 Language Learning program on it and then some more software with more vocabulary as she goes along. One gifted child that I gave this to as a present learned to speak Spanish so well from it that a Hispanic mom new to their area at a birthday party thought that the child was a native Spanish speaker. It took my friend (gifted child's mom) awhile to convince the Hispanic mom that she herself did not know any Spanish :-). Other resources for this might be your area's Chinese school which usually will have after school or Saturday lessons. Young children can easily learn 5-10 or more languages and keep them straight. The important thing is to get the language structure and accent into their brains while the language learning part of the brain is still flexible and growing. (The info in this paragraph works for other kids too, not just the exceptionally gifted ones.) Another thing that it helps to learn young is music. So if you can connect her to a good music teacher she will have a much better foundation for that. In our area the private music teachers for elementary students were of the cruel sort. In listening to my friends describe their teachers, I knew there was something really wrong there, so chose not to take music lessons. I did not know enough to ask my parents to try and find good music teachers in an adjacent area. It was not until 7th grade that I located a positive competent private music teacher on my own. In the one year before her husband was transferred (and thus she as well) to another area we managed to do four years worth of lessons. I could always see a difference though in what I could do (not as well) vs. the students who had started younger. Learning to manage one's giftedness early on helps a great deal, too. If you can find another equally gifted friend, that makes life much more pleasant. If it turns out that most friends are more academically/creatively average or perhaps advanced in one, then it's important to learn how to have fun with them at their level. There are several strategies that work here. One is to mostly interact with the other person in the area they are advanced in--perhaps you draw together or practice your French with each other. Or you find a couple of other kids who like to do music and create your own G-rated MTV videos. Another is just to use a subset of your knowledge, playing with other children as you might play with a younger child. Another is to contribute where your gifts lie--perhaps you make up a play for your friends to perform. A vital skill to learn early on is how to be aware of other peoples' differing levels of gifts and how to interact smoothly with them. It's important to value their skills and abilities even though they may differ (+ or -) from your own. It has been my experience that most people are really gifted at at least a couple of things. On the other end of the spectrum, I have never met anyone who was highly gifted at everything. I keep hoping that every culture will learn that IQ does not equal value of a human being and that one's job title does not equal value of a human being. Learning to choose when and how to use one's giftedness may be easier for Leah if she already sees her imagination as a sort of separate thing. This may make it easier for her to see it as tool that she can choose when to use and share, and when to lay low and blend in. In my experience the two kinds of gifted kids who tend to run into trouble are those who believe that they must be displaying their giftedness and calling attention to it at all times and those who believe their giftedness brings them all sorts of entitlements. If it makes you feel any better, of the 100s of gifted people I know, none of them have been involved in any sort of belltower incidents. Only one engaged in enough negative behavior that I didn't enjoy being around him in school. And as an adult I enjoy his company as do others as he has married and has children and is valued at his job. They've choose careers in: teaching, homemaking, medicine, parenting, primatology, law, forestry, sports, acting, politics, royalty, research, journalism, computer programming, woodworking, stain glass window making, car repair, religion, engineering, space exploration, intelligence gathering, social work, music, language translation, and more. Most of them still have bazillions of hobbies as they are still interested in *everything*. The time to do them tends to ebb and flow depending on other aspects of their lives. Being able to advocate and negotiate for one's self is an important survival skill to being gifted. It helps a lot if a parent can assist with this though. Some examples of successes and failures here: 1) When I was 3, I wanted to learn to read. I couldn't find anyone to teach me. Obviously as a three year old my options were limited. A student/now-friend, D*, who very much wanted to learn to read learned to read at age 3 from watching his child care provider read to all of the kids. 2) When I was 5 my parents paid for me to go to a private school first grade where I could advance according to my abilities. I did learn to read(yes!), and also met some other students who became very treasured friends. Once I learned to read, I was insatiable. At some point they realized that I had read all the books in the school. Since they were flexible, I just read books from the public library after that. During the year and over the summer I read all the k-3 books from the children's room and moved on to the 4-6th book section. The other wonderful thing about this school is that they taught us to be safe and competent and also trusted us, and we were, for example, allowed to play in the woods adjoining the school during recess without an adult following us around. 3)In kindergarten, D*'s class was on a tour of a historic area. One of the buildings there has an old clock on top with roman numerals on it. From listening to some of the children describe the tour it seems that they might have had a tour guide whose philosophy of life was "I am a smart knowledgeable adult, and I am here to show you just how ignorant you children are." (The place has other tour guides who love and respect children and are great tour guides. Pity they got that one.) Anyway she asked them "Can anyone tell me what time it is?" She then paused breathlessly so they could become further aware of their ignorance. D* piped up and said, "It's 10 to 2:00." And thus diverted her next condescending series of remarks :-). 4)When D* was 5, he wanted to learn to program computers. His parents, who at this time had not yet realized he was gifted but were very supportive of the things he liked to learn to do, tried to find a children's programming class. There weren't any, so they hired me to tutor him privately which is how I got to become good friends with the family. At this time his family did not have a computer for him to practice on, so I pointed him toward the children's room of the library. At the next lesson he reported that it was fun and all, but that in the children's room you were only allowed to use already created software and not program on your own. So I talked with the library and they let him work in the adult computer room were programming was allowed. Over time there were reports from his Mom that as gifted children are prone to do he had started teaching the adults around him how to do various things on the computer when they asked him to. I find this to often be true of gifted children--that if you let them share, they will often help move a class much further along than one teacher can. I think this is because they just learned how to do something, so what you need to know is fresh in their minds, and it inspires confidence that if one child can do it, another can too. It is important not to take advantage of this though so that the gifted child still has plenty of time to learn more things themselves. However a gifted student can often do a full day's school work in 1.5 to 2 hours, so there is room to spare here. 5) When D* was in first grade he was home sick and still contagious, but feeling better and bored. He was caught up on his school work. So I asked him if he'd like to learn some math tricks. He said yes, so I taught him most of Algebra I that morning and he got a big kick out of figuring out what the "mystery number" was. His mother did initially freak out when he showed her his new math tricks :-). 6)When I switched to a public school in second grade, I got a teacher who wanted to keep all of her students doing the exact same thing so it was less work for her. And pretty much that is what our year was like for me as well as a few other students who had been in my first grade class. I did make one small headway for us though by assertively advocating for myself. On our first class trip to the school library, I went straight to the 4th-6th section to look for books that the school might have that the public library didn't. The 2nd grade teacher forced me back to the K-3 section and insisted that I read those as the 4-6 books were too hard for me. I politely insisted that I did read 4-6 books, and that I had pretty much read the books in the other section. I wasn't convincing her, so I asked if I could demonstrate that I could read a book from that section, if I could check out the 4-6 books. Figuring she could get me on that one, she agreed. So she goes over to the 4-6 section and pulls a tall humongous book off the shelf nearly the size of an encyclopedic dictionary. She flipped it open to the middle and shoved it into my face. It was so heavy I toppled forward. Then taking a deep breath, I began to read the page to her. After a paragraph she snatched the book back out of my hands, and grudgingly agreed that, yes, I could check out the 4-6 books. It was not until some years later that I realized the extent to which she had tried to prevent me from reading from that section. The book she had given me as a 4-6 reading level test book was a college(or advanced high school) novel called War and Peace. Luckily for all of us in that boat I could do it. 7)In third grade after some large amounts of parental advocacy D* was allowed to read at his by then adult reading level. His fellow students got to hear synopses of books from the adult best seller lists on topics that many were interested in from books that were still to hard for most of them to read. 8)In fourth grade I had a really wonderful teacher--one of my favorites disregarding the following situation. In order to motivate the class to advance their reading levels, she told us that if we completed all the work in four(!) year long elementary texts, we could then read whatever library books we were interested in. This was four years of reading work at a normal pace. I had always detested the reading texts as often the stories weren't that great, and the questions to test reading comprehension which followed each store were very tedious. So I was thrilled with this offer. My only question was how soon I could get through these four books??!!?? In hindsight, I think our teacher envisioned that some of us might get all four of them done between August and March or so if we applied ourselves. Moi?, I wanted to be done with those babies and into some good books. So I worked on them at every opportunity. By the end of the first month I was done with all four of them. When my teacher realized this, I think she panicked (though why I am not sure, perhaps it was a little bit of that thought that if you are enjoying what you are reading, you aren't learning). So she informs me that before I can truly read what I want, I must read all the supplementary reading instruction texts in the school. Aaaccckkk! (Now here is where an parental advocate would have helped if I had thought to mention such a thing to my parents, or had tried to advocate for myself.) There turned out to be 26 of those. I read one a day until they were done. Then after that I could finally read the good stuff again. This teacher was really good at maximizing a wide variety of student abilities. For example our class play that year was a series of scenes from the various countries we studied in geography that year. Students did additional research on more in depth aspects of the culture of the countries and wrote and performed the scenes. This made it possible to use the talents of many different students. In reading the info on how to handle the education of gifted students, one thing you will see is that they don't usually need more practice (busy work) on any particular skill. In fact they usually can cement the knowledge with less practice. Some teachers will add extra to keep the student occupied. It's better if the student is allowed to switch to some other non-disruptive activity when s/he has completed a set of work. One thing gifted kids are often good at is brainstorming and combining elements of different things very creatively. One way you can help them learn to organize this info is to teach them to do mind mapping. There are good books on this which explain how to do it. I'll recommend looking for one rather than me trying to explain it here as it works best if you have a sheet of paper or chalk board to demo it. For anyone on LIM who hasn't come across it already, I recommend mind mapping to you and to all of your children as well. It's great for organizing thoughts, writing papers, or planning projects. The books that also teach brainstorming techniques are fun too. One thing that I would like to see for all children is to keep their creative brainstorming abilities alive yet also have the social skills to know when to use their creativity and when it's in their best interests to do the standard-boring thing. For example a child might like drawing a violet flower and coloring it red even though nature doesn't. But when trying to score high on a school science test, they need to be able to write in the blank that "Violets are usually purple in color though some are yellow, or white, or a blue gray color." If they grow up to become a botanist or horticulturalist, they may want to try to develop some of those red violets they imagined in their childhood. See for example the things which have been created by people who thought beyond the orange daylily http://www.daylilies.org/AHSawards.html . It helps to learn when to use your giftedness and when not to. However children should be warned that sometimes their giftedness prevents them from seeing that certain ways of doing things might not occur to other people. This would occasionally trip me up in school and in general life and even in classes for gifted students where I once found my self being the only person on one side of a debate(1 to 29, very difficult) following a literature reading. In college I once messed up a professor's demonstration by following his rules for the demo in a way no students had done before and in a way he had never imagined, thus pretty much eliminating the point we wanted to make with the demo. Luckily he did research on gifted students and quickly adjusted and used that to demo another point. Probably the next year he added a new rule to the demo :-). In addition to supporting her current gifted development, look ahead to what might work for the future. Get as many things lined up to keep your options open as possible. A frustrating thing for gifted people is that they can't spend all their time on each thing they are good at and interested in. And once they begin selecting things to focus on it will help if the largest number of opportunities are still open. Some things to look for: 1)Afternoon or weekend enrichment classes and field trips for gifted children or homeschoolers. 2)Magnet-schools for gifted children (and transportation issues involved), or gifted classes in her current school 3)Cultural activities such as art or pottery classes, the change to pay with a band or orchestra, a wide spectrum of dance lessons from Irish Step, to Folk, to Ballroom to Square Dance with an emphasis more on having fun together than performing. 4)Scholarships to a school for gifted children 5)Camps that have advanced levels on any topic along with a good balance of traditional camp activities. The number of topically focused camps now is amazing. Many areas have day camps at local universities now. This is a good way for kids to find other kids their same age who are passionately interested in certain topics. 6)One or more interests that she might develop into a service project as her skills develop. See http://www.massyouthinaction.org for an example. 7)Duke University has a great program for gifted kids who take the SAT in middle school and get to go to a gifted camp there if they do well. This means for example that along about 4th grade or so, that kids might want to begin an SAT prep strategy. 8)Some states have free summer schools or high school boarding schools for gifted and talented students. These are really fun for the students as not only do they get to take a class (or more) in a topic they are really interested in, but they also have classes where they learn to manage, balance, and understand their gifted lives to a greater degree. And they get to meet a whole bunch of other gifted and talented students like themselves, a number of which are likely to become long term friends. 9) Scouts or similar type groups. These often allow gifted and average students to learn things at the same level as most of the info is new to all of them. The SCA teaches a lot of activities where students of any age are welcomed. 10) Joining topical groups that might be aimed at adults. I know students who have had an enjoyable time in adult level groups for: - computers, book groups, tennis, foreiggn language learning, woodworking, origami, beekeeping, gardening, astronomy, bicycle repair, animal shelter care, music, and various sorts of needlework for example. It's of course important that the student is calm enough to behave in an adult manner in the group. 11) Online courses. Once a child can read and operate the software proficiently, a number of high school and college level classes can be taken on line as well as classes designed for children. One advantage to this is that since others can't see them, they can't be stereotyped by age in the class. 12) Unfortunately around 12 or so, gifted girls tend to start hiding their giftedness due either to the belief that women aren't as smart as men, or that if they are they need to hide this fact in order to get a date. So anything you can do to make Leah aware of these false beliefs or to the damage she does to her self by cooperating with the aspects that are somewhat true, you can help her avoid shortchanging herself at this age. Some schools are working to turn the tide on this too, by doing things such as insisting that girls continue with math and science courses or have computer labs where half the computers are allotted to each gender to keep girls from being shuttled away from computer competency. 13)Some high schools have college classes for gifted students or advanced placement courses. 14)Many colleges now will let high school students take half a day of classes on campus. Here it helps to plan things so all the high school classes are clumped together in the morning or afternoon. To remain more a part of high school life I think it helps if they are at HS in the afternoon so they can do more HS after school activities, but there is also a lot to said for being able to go to the college library in the afternoon after classes. So I guess what might appeal most is something that can be considered when the time comes. (And all the books and journals might be online by then making the library accessible from anywhere with no need for the decision to be based on that). To keep gifted kids safe, I have found that it helps to teach them safety skills beyond what you might teach other children the same age, and perhaps surprisingly to teach them skills you might think more for an older child. The following examples apply to children who are calm, bright, and willing to be cooperative and responsible. (There may be some way to do this with bouncing-off-the-wall-ADHD-style children, but I'd work with an experienced educator who is very successful with ADHD kids to try.) 1)A calm 4 year old can learn to crack eggs or use a paring knife under supervision. However, I don't let them use motorized tools where a mistake can cause a lot of damage. And kids need to be taller and stronger before they remove things from the oven as a wobble can dump hot things into their face. They can do a lot of computer things even if they are not reading yet. They can do most hand tool gardening tasks with appropriate sized tools. 2)Six year olds can clean fish, build campfires, and use woodworking and needlework hand tools, cameras, program VCRs, and use a variety of household tools and machines where carefulness and knowledge is more important than size or strength. However I tend to stick with things were moving parts won't endanger them. Computers, knitting needles and hammers, yes. Power saws, no. To me this strategy is important for several reasons: 1)Brighter kids often think up things to try without also thinking of or understanding the reasons they should not. I know some kids who thought it would be fun to turn their bedroom into a ship by disassembling the guard rails to the bunk bed and using them as planking from the top bunk to an open drawer of a tall dresser. And then "walking the plank." Very creative. And they learned about physics and leverage when the force on the plank caused the dresser to overturn. Luckily they were nimble and jumped off the plank before being crushed by the dresser. Their mother still gets wide eyed and trembles when she discusses it. 2)Brighter kids often combine things that might be safe on their own but not in combination. It's virtually impossible for a parent or teacher to think up all of these, so it helps if the kids are taught to think through these ideas before trying them. And that if they are not sure about something to discuss it first. And it's a really important parenting skill to walk them through it to help them discover why or why it might not be a safe thing to try even while their brains may be shrieking things like "Are you nuts? That would break your brother's legs!" 3)Brighter kids can often memorize a complex sequence of steps of things or worse yet 90% of the sequence which allows them to think that they know how to do the thing. Often they are correct. However sometimes they may not be tall enough, strong enough, or legally old enough to do that thing. 4)If gifted kids are simply prevented from doing things which could be done in a safe way, it slows their own development and may actually prevent breakthroughs that could be of use to many. A child who learned many archeological skills by accompanying his parents on digs once made an important discovery himself at the age of 8 by being able to translate the ancient languages his parents were working with. 5)It helps children to prevent relationship mistakes as well. For instance if you are doing a new activity, it helps to tell them about what will be happening and other people's expectations of them so they can fit in more easily. This works whether they are going to a fancy restaurant, to the library, to the bank, or to visit a friend in the hospital for the first time. The really, really hard part of this is maximizing the safety aspects while not dampening creativity and enthusiasm. I have had fairly good luck by saying things like: 1)I would like for you to have as much fun as possible without hurting yourself or others. 2)I am comfortable with you doing X because you are careful and you know how to use it. In the event there should be an accident we can fix it with antibiotic cream and a Band-Aid. But you may not do Y until you are Z years old and you've had lessons in how to do it, because it's too easy to permanently damage your fingers with that. 3)Sure, I'd be happy to show you how to do that. Not knowing how to go about starting to learn or do something, is something I find in most kids, not just the gifted ones. Also it seems that many kids don't think to tell their parents they'd like to learn to do something. And some kids have the idea that "only grownups can learn to do X." So I find that it helps to _ask_ children periodically about things they would like to learn to do, make, see, or experience. And I put everything on the list even if I can't figure out how to do or afford it at the time. Some things it takes a lot of working to accomplish. Sometimes it just means keeping eyes open for someone who is able and willing to teach it to them. sometimes it's quite easy to make the arrangements once you know they are interested in something. As for being gifted and the less is more sort of lifestyle or outlook on life, these can mesh well together. In many cases it can be an advantage. If you give most children a multi-use toy, they can get a lot out of it, and gifted children often think of additional ways to play with it. A child can make 1000's of different toys out of a good set of blocks, but only 1 out of a structure that already is glued together and painted. So by choosing versatile toys they can do much more with less. One thing that I think is less likely to be a problem for you than the Jones parent who has a gifted child is I don't think you will find yourself competing with other parents to pressure your child to do more, succeed more, succeed at other's expense, have more, do more expensive things, cram lessons into every moment of every day, etc. And I am glad you haven't gone to the other extreme of saying "Oh, she's gifted. She'll be able to do everything without any help." One place I do see that you might be able to have a significant impact with other parents and children in the same situation is by trying to lead as many people as possible into the LIM versions of doing things. For example, when Leah has friend for a sleepover, teach them how to make pizza from scratch rather than sending out for it. It's really empowering for a kid to be able to create such a favorite food. When Leah gets invited to the expensive amusement park, let her go periodically. But when it's your turn to take her and her friends somewhere, take them camping or for a walk in the woods for some nonconsumerist amusement. Most kids quickly find that the ever changing forest is a lot more fun and amusing than the static amusement park. And every chance you get help the kids learn how to have real fun instead of virtual fun. Teach them how to use a compass and let them lead the hike. It's more fun than a virtual treasure hunt on a computer. When parents are sitting around talking about what they want to do for their kids, and somebody selects the inexpensive uninvolved alternative, try to think about what the LIM essential characteristics of that and then suggest a matching LIM alternative. ***Example*** 1st suggestion: Group eats at fast food place with arcade games Essential characteristics: Eating, kids playing, adults socializing, adults don't have to cook a whole meal LIM suggestion: Picnic potluck at a park. Can do everything as first suggestion. Adults can choose to cook or hit a deli. Extra benefits to LIM suggestion: Probably healthier food, usually tastier food, more dissipation of noise, more physical activity, more frugal for parents making own food, shows don't have to buy fun. Possible pitfalls: May rain, general outdoor risks. If you join an email or web list for parents of gifted children, that will give you some good ideas too and extend your information about good books and other resources. And you might find some other parents nearby or places you may be traveling to for other reasons who are going in similar directions. A gift that gives a lot of joy to gifted children is to be treated with respect and taken seriously. It's been my experience that students respond well to this on many levels. Some parents have noticed and said things like "You treat my children like they are people!" ...exactly what I was aiming for there. Sharon gordonse@one.net _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_ At 05:18 PM 2003-11-05 EST, Priscilla Richter wrote: Sharon, My son, now 24, falls in that category. We moved a lot, so he had the blessings and vagaries of several school systems. There were years when he was not challenged and school was a big yawn. He had some friends, but he was always different. Hated sports from the beginning. I graduated from seminary when he was entering the 8th grade. I chose a town that had a tremendous school system, Oak Ridge, TN. This was also a scientific community, which was his primary interest. He fell in with a crowd of very intelligent students who took their academics seriously, but also were involved in community theater. This was a real saving grace. To this day, his best friends are some of those friends. I am well aware that many are not as lucky as Ryan and I were. What I would pay more attention to in his earlier years would be to pay more attention to other things than 'the life of the mind'. In other words, make sure the child's life is well rounded without being overscheduled. I would also pay attention to the whole issue of friends. I know a lot of very bright people who have had such a tough time with this issue -- if they gave into their brilliance (eg, eagerly waving their hands to answer any question the teachers asked), they would be shunned by their classmates. The other side happens to those, like I tended to do, minimize my intelligence in order to have more friends. It didn't happen anyhow. You speak of her imagination and creativity. Are there times that she can devote freely to these pursuits in an unstructured way? Are there classmates/friends who might share creative experiences, whether it be art, making up a play, etc etc.? Yes, there are perils in our plain vanilla teach-for-the-test school systems. And homeschooling may be an option. But it is also fun and enlightening to grow up around creative, brilliant children. It's a challenge but a true gift. Good luck, Priscilla (whose son is doing fine working on his own-- carfree, I might add - but doesn't have a great social life) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_ At 02:12 PM 2003-11-06 -0500, Sharon Flesher wrote: Thank you all for your very astute advice. I'm happy to say that so far it seems I'm on track with most of your recommendations. I've been just following my instincts as to what Leah needs, but I guess it's normal to sometimes wonder instincts are right. Diane, sometimes I wonder if we're twins separated at birth ;) Leah started both Brownies and ballet lessons this fall. She wanted to be in Brownies because she learned that last year's group spent their cookie money at the new waterpark in town. I have no idea what possessed her to want to try ballet, but I was happy to comply as it was the first "girly" thing she's ever wanted to do. (A friend of mine has bemoaned her daughter's fascination with Barbies, and I have often joked with her that I wished Leah would have an interest in Barbies so I could bash them, too!) As for Harry Potter, it's very big in this house, although not with my daughter. My son has read the first 4 books about 4 times each and the 5th book twice already. Leah, however, only likes books about cats. Priscilla, regarding unstructured time, I'm afraid it's the opposite that's lacking in my house. School is probably the only structured time either of my children have. I am notoriously spontaneous; everything is flexible, including bedtime. My hubby is very structured, so while that keeps us from meeting a dire fate, he works long hours and does not have as much influence on the kids' daily activities as I do. Sharon _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_ At 11:23 AM 2003-11-07 EST, Priscilla Richter wrote: In a message dated 11/6/03 5:53:05 PM EST, Sharon Flesher writes: >Priscilla, regarding unstructured time, I'm afraid it's the opposite that's >lacking in my house. School is probably the only structured time either of >my children have. I am notoriously spontaneous; everything is flexible, >including bedtime. My hubby is very structured, so while that keeps us from >meeting a dire fate, he works long hours and does not have as much influence >on the kids' daily activities as I do. As one who has and does thrive on unstructured time, I certainly know both sides of the coin. I should have known that most of us LIMers are not into the predominant US pattern of overstructuring children. But I think that I have benefitted greatly from having 'free time' to explore as a child. However, it has kept me isolated at times. Blessings, Priscilla _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_ At 05:15 PM 2003-11-05 -0600, Jill Taylor Bussiere wrote: Just tuning in late here. Sharon, what a neat set of gifts Leah has. First off, sounds like whatever you are doing, it is working:^) My advice would be to follow her lead. If she is a dreamy child, which it seems that she is, continue to provide her with lots of dream time, as it sounds like you are already doing. Affirm her as who she is (sounds like you do this already too) and relax - so that she can relax with who she is too. I think she should be fine with continued affirmation from you. You can help the teachers to calm down too, if they are all in an uproar. Clearly she is wonderful as she is - what more could anyone want for her? Jill _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_ At 10:38 AM 2003-11-06 -0600, Diane wrote: I agree with Jill. I think you are doing everything just right. *If* (and I do mean if) you and your husband decide you want to encourage her socialization, I mention two things that worked really well with my two daughters who tend toward shyness: Girl Scouts and dance lessons. I personally thought Scouts was a big drag, but both my daughters like/liked it well. (I myself did 4-H as a kid and thought that was pretty neat; I'm sure Camp Fire also has a good program.) As for the dance, don't say no right away if she's not a (as my 7yo puts it) girly-girl. We went to a dance studio, but one with a pretty low-key program for beginners. Yes, you'll see plenty of of aspiring beauty queens (even at age 5), but there is also the fair share of the plump and plain. I was a little skeptical until the end-of-the-year recital. My shy one enjoyed getting dressed up in sequins and feathers as a one-time thing and enjoyed dancing on a stage. Her confidence got a huge boost. My pastor, who happens to be a Korean immigrant, also recommends the martial arts (which I believe your son is in). He plans to have his 4yo daughter, who is shy, to enroll soon. (BTW, I don't see your daughter as shy -- just not so interested in peer interaction.) Lastly, when I was about 7, I began writing "books." I have started about a million of 'em, complete with illustrations and floor plans. And they're somewhere in a box. My 7yo is similar in that way. So I've given her a stack of notebook paper and a ring binder. She is writing stories and putting them in there. You might try the same thing with Leah, perhaps graduating her to other media as she gets older, including photography. Sharon, I know you come from a working-class background as I do. Does it not take your breath away sometimes to think of Leah's forebears 100 years ago and where their descendants have gone? I think of my grandparents and great-grandparents who barely got a country school education and had to scrabble for everything they had (and that wasn't much), and I know my children have the gifts they do thanks to them. Diane Fitzsimmons Norman, Okla. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_ At 12:25 PM 2003-11-06 -0500, Molly wrote: And for a dissenting opinion -- Diane Fitzsimmons wrote: > > *If* (and I do mean if) you and your husband decide you want to encourage > her socialization, I mention two things that worked really well with my two > daughters who tend toward shyness: Girl Scouts and dance lessons. > > I personally thought Scouts was a big drag, but both my daughters like/liked > it well. (I myself did 4-H as a kid and thought that was pretty neat; I'm Girl Scouts was the only socialisation forced on me by my parents, who both regret forcing it on me now. I hated it. I had friends in GS and did all the trips, etc., but I really hated going and being part of a focused group of people every week, singing stupid songs, participating in meaningless rituals (hmmm -- sounds like church sometimes!). The emphasis on accomplishing things (getting badges) just did not gel with my spirit, even then. As Diane's daughters _liked_ it, theirs is a different story. I just wouldn't force or coerce or push Leah to engage in group activities. > Lastly, when I was about 7, I began writing "books." I have started about a > million of 'em, complete with illustrations and floor plans. And they're > somewhere in a box. Diane, I wrote 'books' too at that age, on loose-leaf or construction paper, with images cut from magazines to illustrate them. I also wrote and published a series of newsletters on various topics for friends and family. ~ Molly _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_ At 05:55 PM 2003-11-05 -0500, Sharon Flesher wrote: I just noticed this went only to Molly, when I meant to post it to the list so Diane [ "Fitzsimmons, Diane" ] could see it, too. Sorry. Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Sharon Flesher To: Molly Williams Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 3:31 PM Subject: Re: [LessIsMore] school problems -- need help! > Molly and Diane, > > Thanks for your advice. It is very helpful and reassuring. The teacher's > assessment of her is based on a reading test; the testing is not typically > given in first grade, but the teacher was curious about Leah's ability and > started testing her. Sue (the teacher) said she tested Leah all the way up > to Level 28, which was all she's had time to do so far but she suspects Leah > is beyond that. These numbers are pretty meaningless to me, except to know > that my 4th grade son is Level 30 and the average for 1st graders at this > point is about Level 11. The teacher says she doesn't have another student > in the class who is anywhere near Leah's range. Oddly, Leah rarely reads at > home, so I was not tuned in to her abilities. She has never enjoyed having > books read to her the way her brother does, and she does not seek them out > on her own. I finally figured out a few months ago why that is the case -- > there is nothing in a book that matches Leah's imagination. > > The teacher thinks Leah is exceptional at math, too, although she hasn't > tested her. But I already knew about the math because when Leah was 4 she > participated in a workshop for teachers at the school (it was just a > volunteer thing -- they needed a 4yo as a guinea pig and one of the teachers > knew I had one and called and asked if I would bring her down) and she > tested off their charts for math, although all they had asked her to do was > build patterns out of blocks; it wasn't calculus or anything! > > Yes, she does have areas of weakness. I worry that she is not adjusted > socially. Leah is very independent and self-contained, which is nice, I > suppose, but she seems to honestly not care whether she has friends to play > with or not. At recess, she plays by herself on the swings, although her > teacher says she looks totally happy. Whenever I ask Leah about her social > life at school, she is very matter-of-fact about it: "Oh, I don't play with > anyone. I just like to play by myself." She is that way at home, too. She > has the ability to interact well with others, and does it when she wants to; > she's like a cat in that regard, social intercourse has to be on her terms! > Her teacher says she is sweet and kind in class and gets along with all of > the other children. She is just a loner by choice. > > As far as skipping grades, I have no intention of doing that. I actually > held her back for kindergarten; by Michigan standards, she is supposed to be > in 2nd grade now, but she has an Oct. 15 birthday (Dec. 1 is cut-off here), > and I knew she was not mature enough for school when her time came for > kindergarten. Her kindergarten teacher in Colorado also told me Leah was > leagues ahead of the rest of the class, but I attributed a lot of that to > her age. > > The school system doesn't offer anything for "gifted" children until 4th > grade, and I don't like the program, called TAG. The children are removed > from their neighborhood schools and sent to a special school. If the schools > think it's so important to "mainstream" kids with learning and behavioral > difficulties, why do they think it's OK to separate "gifted" children? I > already told Leah's teacher that we would NOT participate in that program > when she is eligible. > > The teacher thinks maybe I can give her some enrichment activities at home > to let her stretch academically, since Leah is disinclined to do separate > work at school. So far, I've been doing exactly what Diane suggests -- > letting her be a kid. We've never played with flash cards or "thinking" > toys; I've actually been a "bad" parent and set very few limits on > electronic entertainment. Leah isn't as attracted to Gameboys and cartoons > as Dylan; she enjoys playing imaginative games with her toys, and lately she > has been doing a lot of drawing and painting. She doesn't like coloring > books with already-drawn pictures for her to fill in; she likes to make her > own pictures on blank paper. I'm not sure what sort of activities I should > be doing with her. > > Sharon > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_ At 10:04 PM 2003-11-05 -0500, Molly wrote: I'm sending a copy of this to the list now that I know Sharon was sharing the message to which I am responding here with everyone. ~ Molly -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [LessIsMore] school problems -- need help! Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 17:25:35 -0500 From: Molly Williams To: Sharon Flesher Sharon Flesher wrote: > with or not. At recess, she plays by herself on the swings, although her > teacher says she looks totally happy. Whenever I ask Leah about her social > life at school, she is very matter-of-fact about it: "Oh, I don't play with > anyone. I just like to play by myself." She is that way at home, too. She > has the ability to interact well with others, and does it when she wants to; > she's like a cat in that regard, social intercourse has to be on her terms! I hope she can maintain the sense that her own company is worthwhile through adolescence. I was much like this (and am) -- self-contained, enjoy solitude, live in my imagination -- though I also always had plentiful close girl and boy friends throughout school. Often they were much older than I was, or occasionally much younger. Still, it's only in the last few years that I have cared much at all about having a community of friends. > has been doing a lot of drawing and painting. She doesn't like coloring > books with already-drawn pictures for her to fill in; she likes to make her > own pictures on blank paper. I'm not sure what sort of activities I should > be doing with her. I would say the idea is to follow her lead, not to worry about creating activities for her. Anything that taps into her own curiosity or that you think, perhaps on the spur of the moment, will pique her curiosity is a good start. As David said, the main thing is not to hinder her own exploration. I'm sure you can think of dozens of opportunities for learning that appear naturally during the day as you spend time together. The actual projects would depend on what you think the point of education is, what she's interested in, her temperment, your time availability, etc. A few ideas and resources: * local field trips * a project documenting with photos and brief text the key people and places (key to Leah, that is) in your neighbourhood or community. Our homeschooled neighbours did this and took our photo for it -- it's a great community-builder. * Other projects these same boys did (at ages 5-6 and 7-8) were to create a huge and accurate rain forest mural, plan and host a St. Patrick's Day party for adults and peers, try making unusual recipes for Cinco de Mayo and other Mexican holidays, design and build things, etc. * watch TV together and discuss the ads * use holidays as jumping off points for learning -- make recipes and crafts; explore history and folklore; discuss 'simple' variations of holiday festivities; etc. * Eclectic Homeschooling Online: http://eho.org/ * The Unschooling Handbook: How to Use the Whole World As Your Child's Classroom by Mary Griffith (1998) http://www.marygriffith.com/work1.htm * Unschooling Through the Winter: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/unschooling_retired/53596 * The Quirky Things We Do: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/unschooling_retired/35108 * Inspiration: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/unschooling_retired/58382 * some of our website homeschooling resources might be useful: http://www.waterborolibrary.org/homeschool/home.htm Bon chance! ~ Molly _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_ At 10:43 PM 2003-11-05 -0500, Marcia Hirschmann wrote: Sharon... My daughter, Martina is 13 and was identified as gifted in first grade.. she is now in 8th. (I also have 3 other kids... daughter 25 who is mentally challenged... daughter 18 freshman in college... son 10 in fourth grade) Our school system has a program which allows these kids to take special classes and field trips (some quite wonderful.. like marine biology on Lake Erie and the Atlantic Ocean).. but they are in regular classes for the most part. It has worked well for Marti... they also compete in various academic games against other schools. Since she will be starting high school next year, we will look into more AP classes and later, college classes during high school. But generally our philosophy has been to let her take the lead and let her just be a regular kid. As your daughter gets a little older, her teachers might allow her to tutor other children. Marti has done this and it has been a very good social experience for her. I agree that I would not want my child to skip grades or attend a "special" school.. unless maybe she was so far "off the charts" ... genius level... that grade-level school work was ridiculous for her. Leah will be fine. Marcia _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_ At 11:41 AM 2003-11-06 -0000, Lis (binkbat) wrote: --- In LessIsMore@yahoogroups.com, "marccia hirschmann" > > Our school system has a program which allows these kids to take special > classes and field trips (some quite wonderful.. like marine biology on Lake > Erie and the Atlantic Ocean).. but they are in regular classes for the most > part. ----------Oh! That reminds me (lookingg far into the future here). My high school (small with limited resources) set up a deal with the local community college. My junior and senior year, I'd go into the college for mornings or afternoons (depending on my high school schedule). I took most of my college-level freshman and sophomore general studies during that time--creative writing, biology, french literature, sociology etc. Depending on what age Leah is when she's ready for that level of stimulation, it could be a good option. Lis _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_ At 08:03 AM 2003-11-06 -0600, Ross Cannon wrote: hi Diane, i get this forum by digest so am usually a day late. i think lots of the posts on Leah's school situation have been valid. when i had spent a month in first grade i was moved to the second grade. that worked well for me since i was one of the older kids in my class like Leah is. i made new friends and still had friends in my old class. i remember that school became more fun and i did become more involved. that move helped me. bottom line as others have mentioned: love her and help her stretch in lots of areas. do you have the harry potter books at home, has she seen the interactive art instruction book series at Borders Books? repeat three times "this is a blessing, this is a blessing, this is a blessing." and give her lots of hugs. be well, Ross _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_ At 09:56 AM 2003-11-06 EST, Margaret (Nubian51@aol.com) wrote: In a message dated 11/5/2003 5:13:05 PM Central America Standard Tim, sflesher@traverse.net writes: >The school system doesn't offer anything for "gifted" children until 4th >grade, and I don't like the program, called TAG. The children are removed >from their neighborhood schools and sent to a special school. If the schools >think it's so important to "mainstream" kids with learning and behavioral >difficulties, why do they think it's OK to separate "gifted" children? I >already told Leah's teacher that we would NOT participate in that program >when she is eligible. My oldest daughter, now 29, was in one of these self-contained gifted classes during 5th and 6th grade. It was by chance at her neighborhood school. There were a total of 12 students from the entire district (Barrington school district for those of you in the Chicago area). All was fine through those years as she had similar peers in the class. The problem arose when she went to the Jr. High in 7th grade. As she was the only girl in that particular class (the others were all a year behind) she went on virtually alone. She spent the entire year without friends, was made fun of and spent much of the time crying. I have always felt that she lost her self confidence during that year. By 8th grade she did have a small group of friends so at least things improved somewhat. She did feel that she had to be number one to prove that she was a valued person as she felt she was an oddball and a flop socially. We moved to a rural town in northern Illinois before she went to high school for several reasons. We wanted to have a small farm and felt that the Barrington school system (a very affluent district)was detrimental to both of our daughters in different ways. It took Cecily some time to make close friends at her much smaller high school (under 500 students) but it was a fresh start for her. She was also able to take part in any activity she chose. No one was cut from the plays, sports and any activity for that matter. We were able to supplement her interests that weren't provided by the district. Cecily has gone through many years of counseling to build up her self confidence though college and beyond but today is a very well-rounded unique person who recently got married. I am sorry that I allowed her to be in that self-contained gifted class because I believe that many of her difficulities stemmed from those middle years of school. Margaret _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_ At 02:49 PM 2003-11-06 -0600, Diane wrote: Well, I always knew the people who hung out at LIM were special but, after reading all the posts on giftedness, I now know why! :^) Wouldn't it be great if all parents and schools viewed each child as being "gifted" (because they are) and worked as hard as Sharon and other people have here to give children a variety of activities? Diane Fitzsimmons Norman, Okla. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_ {Now, a side-thread: } At 11:03 AM 2003-11-06 -0600, Diane started the thread: Speaking of Harry Potter :- Two things regarding books: 1. I've got a son turning 15 in a couple of weeks. Molly was a big help last year in recommending some fantasy and science fiction. He is also into John Grisham and Harry Potter and Tolkien (although for every "bad" book he has to read a "good" book -- he definitely was not impressed with Camus or Mailer). I thought the Aragon book I posted about a few weeks ago would be a sure-fire hit, but he dismissed it as a Tolkien wanna-be. Anybody have any suggestions? (He also is into girls and cars. :^) ) 2. This humorous editorial from the NY Times about our favorite reading material: { http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/06/opinion/06WILL.html is:} Heavy Reading By IAN R. WILLIAMS Published: November 6, 2003 Last week Dr. Howard J. Bennett of the George Washington University Medical Center diagnosed one of those half-serious maladies of modern living, like Frisbee finger or Nintendinitis. In a whimsical letter to The New England Journal of Medicine, he gave it a name: the Hogwarts headache. This alliterative affliction is named after the wizarding school in J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter series, and is suffered by children embarking on marathon reading sessions of the 870-page "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix." Reports of Hogwarts headaches circulated wildly on the Internet ... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > From: Elena [Note: Italy. D.] > Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 2:08 AM > To: LessIsMore@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [LessIsMore] Re: Speaking of Harry Potter .../books I'd suggest > > Diane, > when I was 15 I started reading Stephen King, and despite everything, > I still think he is a good writer. Not all his novels are equally > good, and due to excessive violence, profanity, adult content, not > all of them could be considered suitable for any age, but I read them > as a teen and suffered no damage ;-) The eyes of the dragon is a > fantasy without blood and the like. (If I remember well...) > I became a great fan of Edgar Allan Poe's stories and read all Agatha > Christie's detective stories during my school years. > If he likes Harry Potter and fantasy stuff I would suggest: > * David Eddings: The Belgariad series (5 books) and The Mallorean > series (5 books); > * Terry Brooks: Shannara series (7+1 books); > * Orson Scott Card: The Alvin saga (fantasy, only 6 volumes out of 7 > have been written so far) and the Ender series (sci-fi, 4 books + > more recently published - I haven't read them), the standalone novel > Treason (my favourite) which, I think, is no more printed nowadays; > * Tad Williams: Tailchaser's song, a fantasy with cats as characters; > Good luck, > Elena > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 01:19 PM 2003-11-07 -0000, Lis (binkbat) wrote: --- In LessIsMore@yahoogroups.com, Elenaa wrote: >> If he likes Harry Potter and fantasy stuff I would suggest: Elena, I'll have to track some of those down myself. I'd add Stephen R. Donaldson's One tree series to the fantasy list--two trilogies in total. I also enjoyed Tad Williams cyber fantasy series--Otherland. (a rather dark fantasy however) Also of interest, although somewhat inconsistent, is Asimov's Foundation series. I'd equate the Dragonriders of Pern series with Harry Potter in terms of 'feel good' fantasy. Also high on my list of fantasy--Sheri Tepper's work. She writes with a strong feminist sensibility so issues of exploitation of nature, non-violent cultures are a common theme. Lis - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 09:12 AM 2003-11-07 -0600, Diane wrote: Thanks for the reminder about the Ender series. I enjoyed that and think he will, too. Yes, I don't care for Stephen King but my husband does, and my son has read many of those books. Thanks for other suggestions! Diane Fitzsimmons Norman, Okla. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 10:33 AM 2003-11-07 -0500, Sharon Gordon wrote: - Timeline by Crichton - The Seven Habits of Highly Effective TTeens by Covey - Some of the original, modern, or book that went along with the TV special books on the Lewis and Clark Expedition: maybe an Ambrose book or Schmidt, Thomas and Schmidt, Jeremy. The Saga of Lewis & Clark: Into the Uncharted West. - The Wild Colorado: The True Adventuress of Fred Dellenbaugh, Age 17, on the Second Powell Expedition into the Grand Canyon by Maurer - Shadow of the Hegemon if he's read thee previous books in Card's Ender series - The three books in the Dark Materials Trilogy by Philip Pulliam * The Golden Compass * The Subtle Knife * The Amber Spyglass Sharon - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 10:58 AM 2003-11-07 -0600, Diane wrote: As always, Sharon, you come up with the greatest ideas. "Timeline" is getting ready to come out as a movie this season, so that should pique his interest. I really like the frontier adventure ideas. We did the Pulliam series last year. He enjoyed those. Diane Fitzsimmons Norman, Okla.