At 01:01 2004-01-28 -0000, Gary wrote " Re: Poverty..food etc" {at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LessIsMore/message/13893 }: The Amish IMO are a perfect case for remaining to some degree self- reliant, reliant upon one's own skills and resources. The Amish remain only partially within the U.S. monied system and are not locked into it. For the most part, many of the goods and services required by the Amish are supplied by the members of the Amish community themselves. There is no real need to exchange dollars for those goods and services. They can maintain their community's internal economy through barter and simple goodwill. The only income they truly need is for those goods and services required from outside the Amish community -- for example, to pay taxes or to buy some flour at a local mill. Overall, given the real wealth of the community itself (in goods and services available, in fertile land), the Amish can get by with relatively few dollars and still have a good quality of life. Which brings me to a major point regarding a flaw in capitalistic thinking as practiced today. One's life should be more than about the acquisition of money. Money is simply a tool that potentially can provide what should be IMO a far better goal: quality of life. Unfortunately, capitalist societies (especially our own today) measure everything in terms of money. They have confused the finger pointing to the moon for the moon itself. So technically, the Amish are "poor". So charity is judged by how much money we give, not necessarily by how much TIME we give. In this holy pursuit of the dollar, we are missing the point IMO. We are throwing aside what is REAL wealth (our health, our life in terms of time, our relationships, our own skills and knowledge by which to live "well", our planet's natural resources, our quality of life) for the pursuit of paper -- or worse yet, a string of numbers in a computer. Numbers which can be so easily changed -- simply by our government's devaluing or inflating the dollar. Numbers which can enslave -- if you live a life requiring money as if it's your life's blood. Gary - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 09:54 2004-01-28 -0600, Jill wrote {at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LessIsMore/message/13899 }: I think this has come up in past conversations, but seems relevant again, and we have new members:^) (Hurrraaay!) There is a book about the Ladakh in Tibet - who had no income, and yet had a high quality of life. Ancient Futures: Learning from Ladakh Once they were "capitalized" and connected to the world economic system, they were measured to be improved, because money had changed hands, and so their "income" was higher. But they lost many of the things, including some that you all have mentioned... They used to have ways of healing, all used to be employed (working for a subsistance living), all had enough to eat, people were happy. There are more, but those I thought of. After "the economic connection" things that they used to have, such as housing and food, were lower quality, or scarcer, etc. Here is one review: Ancient Futures: Learning from Ladakh Helena Norberg-Hodge Ancient Futures, by Helena Norberg-Hodge, is a narrative of the authors' experiences in Ladakh, a small country high in the Himalayas near the Tibetan border. As a linguist living with the Ladakhi people for many years, Ms. Norberg-Hodge has witnessed, and continues to witness, the rapid changes in their culture and economy as "civilization" discovers and overtakes the area. Her bittersweet experience shifts from reflection to action as she starts a center and initiates projects that compete with "normal progress" to improve the living conditions and quality of life of the inhabitants without undermining the centuries-old values and social fabric of the culture. The positive message of this book is that we "civilized" people also have choices and can make decisions that do not necessarily lead down the familiar and well-worn path of Westernized progress. It all depends on what kind of civilization we want. When I met Ms. Norberg-Hodge in San Francisco over a decade ago, I thought the goal of her projects was cultural preservation, for if there ever was a candidate for a culture to be preserved it is Ladakh. The Ladakhi people were happy, contented, and lived in an elaborate, tightly-knit social fabric that did not know greed or suffering on an individual or social scale. They shared everything--work, harvests, ceremonies, and brothers shared their wives in the practice of polyandry as a population control practice. In harmony with their surrounding harsh, high-altitude, dry climate countryside, the Ladakhis stabilized their culture with the water they controlled from the mountains. Irrigating the high desert placed severe constraints on population growth and restraints on trade, community development, and social behavior. Ladakhi society is under tremendous pressure to "progress" into the Westernized model of a cash economy, purchased goods, and increased trade. With the arrival of tourists, roadways from India to the South, and imported kerosene for heating, the Ladakhi society is under tremendous pressure to "progress" into the Westernized model of a cash economy, purchased goods, and increased trade. Individuals in the society are likewise under pressure to modernize their values and attitudes and many of them feel old-fashioned in the face of Western models and ideals. Ms. Norberg-Hodges' Ladakh Project, as part of the International Society for Ecology and Culture, offers alternative ways to develop and improve the quality of life for Ladakhis that are not so energy intensive, monetarily driven, and socially disruptive. Ancient Futures is a book about a valiant and vigilant woman and her double success in offering an alternative path for both the Ladakhi people and for our own. The Ladakhis have a happy, well-balanced, and contented society and culture to lose, due to Westernized progress. By studying Ladakh, we Westerners may find out what kind of a culture we have to gain, if we take the responsibility to chose our future. Larry Peterson, Publisher Here is the review from Barnes and Noble, which I hadn't seen before - interesting... From The Critics Library Journal Norberg-Hodge first went to Ladakh in 1975 and has spent six months there every year since. This slim volume is her soapbox to air her views of how Ladakh should be. Part 1 is the romantic, idealized Shangri-la where everyone is happy and contented. Then she portrays Ladakh after the tourist invasions and economic development. Next is a tirade against multinational corporations that are responsible for all the world's problems (strange, since India banned most international companies 20 years ago). Finally, Norberg-Hodge describes her work in establishing local organizations to introduce local-level, low-capital inputs. A popular and sensitive introduction to Ladakh is needed, but this is not it. Not recommended.-- Donald Clay Johnson, Univ. of Minnesota Lib., Minneapolis - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -----Original Message----- From: Kelley C Smith [mailto:smithkc@cox.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 9:28 AM Gary, You've expressed my thoughts almost exactly! There are forms of wealth and "income" that don't show up on the books the way government agencies tally them. These people (Amish) hold wealth in the form of land, animals, etc. Thus they can be very self-reliant. Many people who are shut out of the affluent consumer culture have failed to realize that they can do quite a lot for themselves if they approach providing for thmselves in a different way. Of course, it takes money to buy land, sheep, cattle. And we are all bombarded by the attempted brainwashing of advertisers. I believe the poverty-stricken are victimized by the wealthy--exploited for low wages. I also believe they allow themselves to be victimized by falling for the consumer culture. Buying fast food, ready-made clothes....................... And I think some purchases are really good investments (tools to do things for oneself). Kelley Oklahoma City