Widge
Redemption - a discussion
Topic: Redemption (1 of 14), Read 182 times
Conf: Dark Discussion
From: Darren Williams
Date: Monday, December 05, 2005 05:09 AM
Originally Posted 5-Dec-2005 04:46
Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery;
None but ourselves can free our mind.
Wo! Have no fear for atomic energy,
'Cause none of them-a can-a stop-a the time.
How long shall they kill our prophets,
While we stand aside and look?
Yes, some say it's just a part of it:
We've got to fulfil de book.
Won't you help to sing
Dese songs of freedom? -
'Cause all I ever had:
Redemption songs -
All I ever had:
Redemption songs:
These songs of freedom,
Songs of freedom.
Unlike Dan, my aim is to become filled with light. If things go as they expect I will emerge a light master (albeit not an FA one)
From a very early age I have been exposed to influences that have built this consciousness, this identity, this construct, this point of view that exists unique to me. Before my first thought, before i was born into this world many factors played their part. Thousands of years of ancestry had produced my parents living in a particular part of the world, with a particular environment, with particular cultural and social beliefs, having led their own lives, with their own fears, failures, successes, experiences and influences. This created this human being known as Darren Williams, a particular sequences of DNA coding, a complex series of binary switches with a combination unique to me. This is my genetic inheritance. This is my bloodline. The things i do in this life will either restore the purity of that bloodline or they will corrupt it such that the information it contains is passed on imperfectly to my offspring.
I was born in the early 1970's in the UK, went to a Lutheran Church, a regular school, grew up within a particular societal framework, was exposed to certain kinds of media. Much of my life and the experiences I was exposed were 'given' to me, often without understanding. The influences I was exposed to were indiscriminate and often contradictory, with parents, friends, teachers, books, tv, film, advertising, government, all playing their part and yet many of my behaviours, belief systems, my language, my accent, my habits of thinking, diet, posture, social interaction etc etc were laid down at this time, mainly through mimicking others, and on trial and success based on a sense of worth directed from external sources. The I that perceives the world is built from the patterns fed to me by others. This is called teaching.
Fortunately I has the opportunity to consciously direct and select the influences it chooses to be exposed to, to analyse and prioritise and through decision making processes take a course of action. This is self-education.
Unfortunately we face the situation where the I that discriminates operates far slower than the mass of data that is streaming in is being processed by the brain and so the mind fall backs on habit, that is things learnt earlier in life. The way things are perceived and interpreted are done so based on the existing patterns of thinking that were laid down many years before and are habitual. A useful survival process and the basis of learning. And its not just thinking either, it cuts across the entire spectrum of the human condition. And while the brain through directed action or discipline can instill positive habits so can undirected awareless lead to unhelpful, negative, self-harming habits and addictions. The brain functions successfully through habit. It is very good at it but most of us haven't realised it until now and we have become very successful at creating unconscious negative patterns that constantly reinforce being successful at creating unconscious patterns in an increasingly negative feedback loop.
That is the world i exist in, That is the world we all exist in. We each have our particular mass of influences that have shaped us into the people we are. None of us have an awareness of what truly lies behind this artificial construct we know as ourselves, this identity we call (insert your name here). And its one mighty fucked up world, not surprising that we are all fucked up. We live in so much ignorance of who we are and what we are, because we have lived in habitual blindness since we were born. We have lived our lives for so long based on so many patterns we don't know about and can't remember and so we suffer.
To find out we would have to remove all those habits of thinking, that endless negative self-talk from a self-image created and reinforced by others, those habits of living, of walking, of feeling, of eating, and talking and whatever else so that we can see before them and free those chains that bind us from our true selves and the potential inherent, unfettered as we become free from those fears, tensions and stresses that years of self perpetuated ignorance have given rise to. That would be redemption.
snazzy Apprentice to Richard Irvine
AuroraSkywalkerX: there cannot be somone in the dark who is not suffering who has not suffered greatly
Buddha - Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
"VII-xxvi-2: �There is this verse about it: "He who sees this does not see death nor illness nor any sorrow. He who sees this sees all things and obtains all things in all ways." �He is one, becomes threefold, fivefold, sevenfold and also ninefold. Then again he is called the elevenfold, also a hundred-and-ten-fold and also a thousand-and twenty-fold. ��When nourishment is pure, reflection and higher understanding become pure. When reflection and higher understanding are pure, memory becomes strong. When memory becomes strong, there is release from all the knots of the heart. The revered Sanatkumara showed to Narada, after his impurities had been washed off, the further shore of darkness. People call Sanatkumara as Skanda � yea, they call him Skanda"
Topic: Redemption (2 of 14), Read 183 times
Conf: Dark Discussion
From: Dirk Sith
Date: Monday, December 05, 2005 05:07 AM
That was an impressive piece of writing D.W. I actually enjoyed reading that. It reminded me a great deal (in terms of breadth and depth) of the introspection that has always distinguished these forums from many others on the web.
Once again, well done.
D.S.
Topic: Redemption (3 of 14), Read 167 times
Conf: Dark Discussion
From: Seria .
Date: Monday, December 05, 2005 06:42 PM
Originally Posted 5-Dec-2005 18:40
Redemption sounds a very christian slanted word to me. The idea of redemption, finding heaven, the perfect place to save us from the cruel word, is wishful thinking when no other way to cope can be imagined. There is no saviour or set of rules by which abiding you can earn your salvation. One can only seek to redeem themselves from such delusions, all the futile things widge mentioned and many more. Redemption can be peace of mind when you realise "if there is no God everything is allowed" and face the despairing consequences of that. Or as a force believer, redeem god, who is taking his last breath in you, from the eternal abyss.
-Seria
"Suddenly, in terrifying moments, within me flashes a thought: All of this is cruel play in vain, without beginning, end and meaning. But quickly I harness myself again into the wheel of inevitability, and the whole universe starts to whirl around me once again." -Nikos Kazantzakis
Topic: Redemption (4 of 14), Read 154 times
Conf: Dark Discussion
From: Shirohito Seki
Date: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 06:36 AM
My view on redemption is to satisfy our individual 'hunger', our spiritual lack of wholeness. Like when you are hungry, only you can make you not hungry by eating, no one else can eat it for you and make you not hungry. Same with redemption, to be redeemed takes our own effort, no one can do it for us, be it Christ or God.
"There are two things that are infinite: the Universe and Human stupidity. I'm not so sure about the first one" - Einstein
Topic: Redemption (5 of 14), Read 156 times
Conf: Dark Discussion
From: Prince Gader'el
Date: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 08:46 AM
Redepmtion may sound like a very christian word, and in some regards it may be, i am in fact a christian. But I have read my fair share of cultural tomes and a great deal of them place hope in deliverance, be it in this life, or a thousand lifetime from now. My post wasn't about redemption through christ, it was about the concept of redemption at all, through any means, as a construct that humans build upon themselves.
"Do this and you will be redeemed in the eyes of your creator..."
Why are we so shamefull that we are born into a life striving to be accepted and redeemed?
Topic: Redemption (6 of 14), Read 151 times
Conf: Dark Discussion
From: Tom Longland
Date: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 09:21 AM
you speak of redemption as if it is our ultimate goal to cleanse our souls by not being evil;not exploiting our surroundings and the people within them.Do you not think that redemption is just a part of human behavior?to protect others and to keep life in continuum. to leave us in peace.Our mind invents this theory of god delivering us from evil to give us incentive for that peace, god himself does not exist as a person. we feel he exists as we feel this force within us, and as human curiosity entails we need explanation;most peoples is to believe in a god.i believe that lifes ultimate goal is to overcome your minds need for religion and to reset your brain to think more through nature; tuning it in to a good reception. for this force is god.People just relate easier to other people (e.g. gods)than to a force that runs through everything.
Topic: Redemption (7 of 14), Read 153 times
Conf: Dark Discussion
From: Seria .
Date: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:21 AM
I just happened to do some studies on existentialism today and I think Jean-Paul Sartre would answer your question well. (Also a good read for those who want to discover some roots of dark ideology)
"Why are we so shamefull that we are born into a life striving to be accepted and redeemed?"
Basic principles are subjectivity of humans and existence prior to essence or being (ie idea of a human in God's mind and then created being, or for an atheist: humane reality that a person develops into). Humans build awareness from nothingness, making choices according to their will thus becoming creations of themselves. If there is no God there also can be no celestial moral code. Due to subjectivity, every individual is alone and there is no standards for behaviour within humanity.
This is basically ultimate freedom. The individual alone is responsible for their actions, without any rules to follow. The only value any action has is their being chosen from the others, without apparent reason. This freedom and responsibility of helpless choice is the cause for the anguish that makes us wish for external values. This anguish and guilt cannot be escaped, living in a lie of possible redemption is possible, but is not living up to your humanity. Why are we striving to be redeemed? Because we are afraid to be free.
-Seria
"I am responsible for everything except for my very responsibility, for I am not the foundation of my being. Therefore everything takes place as if I were compelled to be responsible. I am abandoned in the world... in the sense that I find myself suddenly alone and without help, engaged in a world for which I bear the whole responsibility without being able, whatever I do, to tear myself away from this responsibility for an instant." ~Jean-Paul Sartre
Topic: Redemption (8 of 14), Read 134 times
Conf: Dark Discussion
From: Prince Gader'el
Date: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 09:57 AM
I can vibe with the idea of their being no celestial moral code, however, i think if we are slated to live as a community, codes of morality are bound to appear at some point. They sort of have to in order for their to be a community right? I mean there may not be any standards for behavior, per se... but just like any other species, humans do display similar behavioral quialities as a group, and that alone can lead to a sense of unspoken morality. Or we can live as solitary indivduals with absolutely no sense of morality and run rampant, of course. Is morality maybe one of those human qualities that is derrived from us attaining awareness? Do awareness and morality fit hand in hand?
I love that quote M`Lady.
Topic: Redemption (9 of 14), Read 134 times
Conf: Dark Discussion
From: Dragon Rouge
Date: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 11:28 AM
Originally Posted 7-Dec-2005 11:17
Looking in my closet I came to find a small door to a crawlspace that I never knew was there.
In it, I found a mirror - gorgeously ornate in frame, but besmudged by years of neglect.
What is it to redeem the mirror?
What is it to "save" the mirror?
Redemption!
Salvation!
I would need a cleansing agent.
I would need a tool to clean with.
I would need a method of cleaning that left no stray marks.
The mirror is old and there are layers upon it.
I must be careful not to ruin the frame or break the glass in my operation.
It will be slow going and it will take time,
But it will be worth it.
or I could take the path that Satirical Unicorn has chosen. I could fully black out the face by adding more filth to it Then polishing my mirror until it shown like polished onyx,
But I would never be able to see my true face in it.
Practicus 3=8
Topic: Redemption (12 of 14), Read 80 times
Conf: Dark Discussion
From: Kissed by Shiva
Date: Saturday, December 10, 2005 04:04 PM
My face is ugly. I dont want to see it, i want to see glittering jewels, gems built up from the compression of dirt. What is my face, the thing in the mirror? Is there actually a face? I choose the face i give to people, to get what i want. And one more note. If you polish onyx enough, surely it should reflect ones face just in the blackest of tones?
Topic: Redemption (13 of 14), Read 68 times
Conf: Dark Discussion
From: Dragon Rouge
Date: Monday, December 12, 2005 12:15 PM
Originally Posted 12-Dec-2005 12:13
My face is ugly. I dont want to see it, i want to see glittering jewels, gems built up from the compression of dirt.
I do hope you realize that I was not referring to the literal outer fascade of the physical body. I would hope that the metaphoric significance of a "small door" to a "crawlspace" hidden away in a "closet" would be a bit more obvious than that. Yet, to say "my face is ugly" would leave me to believe that you either misunderstood my reference or you've never actually glimpsed at the "face" to which I'm referring.
"Darkness is within the individual."1
The "face" is our true inner self. To say that you choose to cover your face with dirt, hoping to create "glittering jewels", is as to say that you wish to delude yourself by covering up what is true and trying to supplant its image with superficial sparklies. This, of course, doesn't actually change your face from being what it is; it just makes it a bit easier for you to deny.
"Darkness is about knowing the individual. We must cut through the lies we weave around ourselves, we must go beyond the way we shield ourselves."1
What is my face, the thing in the mirror? Is there actually a face? I choose the face i give to people, to get what i want.
The latter portion of this statement appears, to me, reminescent of the "outside mask" concept as can still be found on FA's main site.2 Darth Moor defines it elsewhere as thus: "A [darksider] caries an outward mask, meaning that he, in full recognition of the functionality of a mask, tunes his behavior towards outsiders that have no right to his personal thoughts."3 While I cannot say whether or not you are following these statements in say that "[you] choose the face [you] give to people," but what you speak of is a mask of sorts nonetheless.
With that in mind, I offer the reminder that the best masks are built upon the individual's true facial structure. Such a mask leaves no gaps along the edges, nor is is loosely tied by string. Yet, for you to pose the question "is there actually a face" would leave me to question whether you're wearing the mask or if you're being worn by it.
"For an individual to be mindful he or she must understand and attempt to further their understanding of what he or she is..."4
And one more note. If you polish onyx enough, surely it should reflect ones face just in the blackest of tones?
Yes, it would reflect "the blackest of tones," but is this one's "true face" to which my last line referred? Is your face greyscale? Where are the pinks and the creams and the earth tones? The blues and the reds and the greens? To look for your face in onyx is little more than to look upon the outline.
Notes:
1. Irvine, Richard. Darkness and the Individual. current Dark Lecture Hall.
2. http://www.forceacademy.com/Dark/Sith_lecture3.htm
3. Moor, Darth. The Armor.
4. Vock, Noel. Mindfulness. Dark writings, past to present. Philosophical foundations.
Practicus 3=8
Topic: Redemption (10 of 14), Read 120 times
Conf: Dark Discussion
From: ' Maotun '
Date: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 02:27 PM
What do you personally
think about the idea of living
a life born of
desperation and striving to
reach that redemption?
IF life was born of desperation, and would be an attempt of redemption, than death would be a return to desperation, killing redemption. =-If nonexistence is desperation, than existence is the opposite.
I would rather round this thought by saying that earthly existence is a "prize for losers", and people have the chance to aim for a "better prize".
Topic: Redemption (11 of 14), Read 100 times
Conf: Dark Discussion
From: Prince Gader'el
Date: Thursday, December 08, 2005 03:00 PM
I'm not quite sure we are actualy born in a life of desperation, it may very well just be something we learn as we go. I am not too sure I understand what the prize for losers is referring to however.
Topic: Redemption (14 of 14), Read 50 times
Conf: Dark Discussion
From: Angra Mainyu
Date: Friday, December 16, 2005 12:06 AM
Redemption is something created by man so that he wouldn't have to live with the crimes he committed. This was created by the weak man... the weak won't survive.
'-.Angra.Mainyu.-'
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me...