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/ Subject >  Re: To Aaron. Moses verses Jesus/6 / 20Sept2000 /
/ Newsgroups: alt.bible, alt.religion.christian.biblestudy /
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>> textman previously wrote: <snip> What is clear to me is that Matthew
>> has added to Mark's prophecy such that we end up with not one
>> prophecy, but two: an end-times prophecy (v.27) which is still on
>> the way, and a short-term prophecy (v.28) which was fulfilled at
>> the Transfiguration.
.
> On Sept19 "Brad" <[email protected]> replied: So in other words
> Matthew embellished the Mark prophecy.
.
 textman answers: Dear Brad, that is correct.
.
> Matthew also concocted the flight to Egypt, the 3 days and 3 nights
> in the grave, the guards at the tomb, and the dead rising and walking
> into town when Jesus died. Embellishments like these, including the
> Matt 27 example certainly create a more lively tale but fall apart
> when examined for credibility.
.
 'Credibility' in what sense? Just because the Matthean additions are
of dubious value historically does not mean that they are therefore
devoid of all meaning and value and relevance.
.
>> Moreover, all the elements of both prophecies (with the exception
>> of 'rewards and punishments' -> ie. the Matthean addition) were
>> fulfilled during the Transfiguration episode: <snip remainder>
.
> B: Jesus didn't come from anywhere at the transfiguration as
> required by scripture.
.
 In order to go up the mountain in the first place, they must
have come from somewhere.
.
> Jesus was to come in his kingdom the same way he left
> as Acts 1:11 states clearly.
.
 What does Acts have to do with it? Are you mixing up prophecies from
two different books now? Are we talking about Mt, or are we talking
about Acts? Please make up my mind!
.
> There is no indication Jesus came from heaven at the transiguration.
.
 So what?
.
> He was already there. Your statements smack of excuse making.
> "All" elements were fulfilled except two critical ones?
.
 I simply meant that all the Markan elements were fulfilled.
This leaves us with one non-critical element still on the way.
.
> Then "all" elements weren't fulfilled.
.
 If you say so.
.
> Prophecy fulfillment isn't a game of horseshoes where close
> can count. Anyone can make a half accurate prophecy.
.
 Can you?
.
> It might rain tomorrow and it may not.
.
 Predicting the weather is NOT prophecy, Brad. If you don't even
know that much, how can you expect us to take your 'logical'
nitpicking seriously?
.
            - the almost illogical one - textman ;>>
.
P.S. "How long, O naive ones, will you love being simple-minded?
      And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing? And fools hate
      knowledge?" - Proverbs 1:22/NASB
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/ Subject >  Re: To Aaron. Moses verses Jesus/7 / 21Sept2000 /
/ Ngz: alt.religion.deism,alt.bible,alt.religion.christian.biblestudy /
.
 <snip>
.
>> textman answers: Here is the difference between how believers and
>> unbelievers read the Sacred Text: unbelievers find problems in the
>> text that aren't even there. The problems with the texts that *do*
>> exist can't satisfy them, so they go out of their way to create
>> more! ... How "logical" is that?
.
> On 21Sept "G. R. Gaudreau" <[email protected]> replied: Wrong!
> Unbelievers find problems that are *in* the text. In fact, many of
> them. But believers, being the gullible, credulous little creatures
> that they are, don't see the problems because they're blind as bats.
> That would be you, my friend Textman.
.
 textman answers: Dear GR, you're such a *meanie*!
.
 <snip>
.
>>> GR: Oh, now you went and done it. I thought you were a nice guy,
>>> but it turns out you're just another pretentious Xian. Too bad.
.
>> You thought the offensive one was "a nice guy"? ... LOL ...
>> What cyber-space do you inhabit?  :)
.
> GR: I'm glad to see you have at least enough honesty to admit you're
> offensive. I'm from that part of cyberspace that doesn't assume
> right off the bat that someone, like you, is offensive. I wait for
> proof, which I've now gotten, thanks to you.
.
 Well, we *do* aim to please, you know.
.
>> "Where is the wise man? Where is the expert in the Mosaic law? Where
>> is the debater of this age? Has God not made the wisdom of the world
>> foolish? For since in the wisdom of God, the world by its wisdom did
>> not know God, God was pleased to save those who believe by the
>> foolishness of preaching. For Jews demand miraculous signs and
>> Greeks ask for wisdom, but we preach about a crucified Christ, a
>> stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles. But to those
>> who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and
>> the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human
>> wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength."
>> -- 1Cor.1:20-25/NETbible
.
> GR: The foolishness of who? God, you say? You mean that paper god
> you worship? PLease! The most ignorant Sceptic can shoot holes the
> size of basketballs through the "wisdom", so-called, of your god.
.
 I'm still waiting. Just when exactly did you plan to shoot
holes through God's wisdom?
.
>>>> Your taste buds must have a strong liking for crap, GR; else why
>>>> would you waste so much time in 'Xian' ngz, instead of going to
>>>> alt.atheism, where you could find many of those with a mindset
>>>> like unto yours?
.
>>> I'm not an Atheist, but of course that fact doesn't
>>> matter to you, does it?
.
>> Not really; since one unbeliever is just as blind as the next ...
>> So just what flavor of unbelief do you put your faith in, anyway?
.
> GR: The first part of your reply is not worth answering.
.
 That's what they all say ...  :)
.
> I'm Agnostic. I don't deny there *may* be a god, but until such time
> as I have hard evidence, I withold belief. If I withold belief,
> Textman, that means I don't have this "faith" you speak of.
.
 That much is obvious to all, GR.
.
> Do you even know what faith means? Doesn't sound like you do.
.
 No? Well then please *do* enlighten us, O agnostic one.
.
>>>> one who wonders what the invaders are *really* after - textman ;>
.
>>> One who wonders when Xians will ever practice the humility their
>>> master commanded. Oops! Silly me, I forgot: They're still sinners.
>>> -- Cheers, G. R. Gaudreau    http://members.nbci.com/grgaud/
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>> Quite right, GR. We *are* still sinners; for that is the nature
>> of fallen and finite human being. The difference, however, is that
>> believers *know* we're sinners. That is why we look to the Lord for
>> help. Unbelievers, on the other hand - and even some Christians,
>> sad to say - would much rather rely on themselves [How's that for
>> building on shifting sands?] or on traditional systems and religions
>> and philosophies (eg. "enlightened" skepticism and cynicism); all
>> of which is of dubious value (to say the least)!
.
> GR: No, Textman my friend, you *believe* you're a sinner
> because you believe in this abstarct concept known as "sin".
.
 'Sin' is an abstract concept now? No wonder all you faithless
unbelievers haven't got the first clue what the scriptures are
all about!
.
> There's a difference. I'd be willing to bet my bottom dollar that you
> don't know the difference between belief and knowledge, which is why
> you claim to know this thing when you really don't. You *believe*
> you're "looking to the Lord" when you don't even know if this "Lord"
> exists or not. You only believe he exists and that's a far cry form
> proven knowledge.
.
 No one can put God in a test tube, GR. If that's what you're
waiting for, then I fear you'll be waiting a long long time.
.
 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me?
Blessed are the people who have not seen and yet have believed."
-- the prophetic Gospel of John, chapter 20, verse 29 / NETbible
.
> Can you tell me the difference between knowledge and belief?
.
 Sure thing dude:  Knowledge - n.  1) acquaintance or familiarity
gained by experience.  2) the fact or state of knowing.  3) what is
or may be known.  4) the sum of what is known.  5) the body of truths
or facts accumulated by mankind.
 Belief - n.  1) something believed.  2) confidence, faith, or trust.
3) religious tenet or tenets. - Syn. 1. conviction, opinion, view.
[Definitions courtesy of 'The Random House Dictionary']
.
 Looks pretty straight-forward to me, GR. Was there something I missed?
.
> For eighteen years I was a Xian, born again, loving "the Lord",
> giving my life to his cause, witnessing, the whole shebang. I even
> pastored two small congregations for the better part of two years.
> I too thought that I *knew* the "Lord". I too thought that I *knew*
> I was a sinner. But when I learned the difference between knowledge
> and belief, things changed for me. My outlook changed. I wasn't so
> cocky anymore, like you are, because I realized that my ignorance
> was greater than my knowledge.
.
 It still is, GR!
.
>>> "It is the nature of God to reside in mystery - ineluctable,
>>> inexhaustible mystery." -- Chet Raymo, Sceptics and True Believers
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>> Just so. And that is why our God is such an offense to the self-
>> styled rationalists (for whom 'man is the measure of all things').
.
> GR: You're so wrong. That's not why your god is an offense to
> me and I don't think man is "the measure of all things."
.
 Sure you do. You're just not honest enough to admit it.
.
> You see how ignorant you are?
.
 I'm getting there (thx to your generous assistance).
.
> But you presume to tell me what I think and what I believe,
> while you don't even know. You don't even know what the above
> quote from Raymo means and yet you presume to know my thoughts.
.
 Well excuse me, I'm sure ... :)
.
 <snip the Textman's attempt at comedy>
.
> -- Cheers, G. R. Gaudreau   http://members.nbci.com/grgaud/
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 <snip silly definitions>
.
    - the one who's just wasting his time now - textman ;>
.
P.S. "How long, O naive ones, will you love being simple-minded?
      And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing? And fools hate
      knowledge?" - Proverbs 1:22/NASB
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