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         REPLY TO RELIGIOUSTOLERANCE.ORG
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/ Re: Primer on Homo-Hermeneutics / 14March99 /
/ Ngz: alt.religion.christian.biblestudy, alt.christnet.bible /
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> Bruce Robinson <[email protected]> of www.religioustolerance.org
> emails textman in answer to his criticisms of their online essay:
> <snip> The longer that I work in the field of religious tolerance,
> the more I realize that EVERYTHING depends upon your basic concept
> of the Bible. If you believe that it is inspired by God, and thus
> inerrant, then everything else follows: from a Christian's beliefs
> concerning equality of the sexes, concerning homosexuality,
> concerning spanking children etc.
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 Dear Bruce, I tend to agree. However, I must take exception to your
direct line from inspiration to inerrancy. The scriptures are certainly
inspired (ie. written under the guidance of the Holy Spirit), but this
does *not* mean that it is perfect in every detail. Indeed, I firmly
reject the concept of inerrancy; at least in regards to matters of
science and history.
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> If you believe that it is writings by a number of authors who are
> promoting their own, different, religious beliefs, then your beliefs
> about these topics (and many more) logically follow.
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 They do? Perhaps not. Indeed, logic has very little to do with it.
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> Fascinating. As with racism and sexism, there is no possibility of
> ending homophobia through reason. It will necessitate changes in the
> law.  Regards,  Bruce Robinson, Coordinator
> -------------------------------//----------------------------------
> The "Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance"  is a multi-faith
> group which promotes religious tolerance. Address: OCRT, Box 27026,
> Kingston ON Canada K7M8W5. URL:  http://www.religioustolerance.org
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 That, sir, is a frightening probability!
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> I think that you are misunderstanding the nature of our site.
> We are not a Christian site.
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 Dear Bruce, this I already know. Where then is my misunderstanding?
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> We are a multi-faith site (Atheist, Agnostic, Wiccan, Christian)
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 A "multi-faith" site is a web-site devoted to spreading lies, and
serving the Wicked One. Either you are for Christ, or you are against
Him! Since you are clearly against Him, how is it that you dare to
call yourselves 'Christian' in any way, shape, or form?
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> We attempt to explain both conservative and liberal Christian views.
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 You do not 'explain' them so much as merely offer an over-simplified
and woefully inadequate version of what you consider to be 'liberal'
and 'conservative' Christian views.
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> We are not contrasting fundamentalist vs. homosexual
> views as you imply.
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 Perhaps you do not think so, but that is exactly how it comes across.
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> And, by the way, none of us are gay or lesbian.
> We are all heterosexuals.
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 Then you really ought to know better, hadn't you?
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>> But having now cleverly installed themselves (by force) within the
>> Kingdom of God (as if they were righteous and faithful believers),
>> the authors are not satisfied with this, and go on at once to again
>> assert that orientation is incapable of change, and that "homosexual
>> behavior is not intrinsically sinful ..."
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> We assert nothing. We are merely explaining the beliefs of others.
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 And doing a piss-poor job of it, I might add.
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> We have our own beliefs. However, if we have done our job well,
> you should not be able to identify them.
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 And what purpose does it serve to conceal your ideas and beliefs
from us? Do you seriously imagine that by hiding the truth from
your Readers you are somehow gaining credibility by way of a false
and deceitful objectivity?
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>> Thus we can plainly see that the ideology that empowers the entire
>> convoluted edifice of the homo hermeneutics rises from a direct
>> denial of the truths revealed in scripture. So they deny that
>> homosexuality is sinful, when the entire biblical tradition clearly
>> indicates otherwise.
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> We do not deny that homosexuality is sinful. We acknowledge that
> - homosexual rape - homosexual prostitution - homosexual rituals in
> Pagan temples - men sexually abusing boys - heterosexuals acting as
> homosexuals in orgies are all sinful, according to the Bible.
> But the Bible is silent on homosexual behavior within committed,
> monagamous, gay/lesbian relationships.
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 You yourself claim that such relationships existed in biblical times,
but were conducted in secret (for obvious reasons). So if "committed,
monogamous, gay/lesbian relationships" are not a modern invention, then
why should you suppose that the Word of God is entirely ignorant about
them? Just because Scripture does not *explicitly* say that "committed,
monogamous, gay/lesbian relationships" are ALSO evil and sinful, does
not mean that the Holy Spirit did not know them. Indeed, the prophet
Jude clearly suggests that these people have always been with us, and
that these 'Ones of Old' were written about and judged ungodly.
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>> They deny that orientation/behavior can be changed by faith and
>> conversion, when Paul clearly states that is precisely what happened
>> to the Corinthians believers! Now they do not dare to call Paul a
>> liar directly, but that is exactly what their feeble denials and
>> pathetic assertions amount to.
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> We do not call Paul a liar.
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 Yes, I know. I just said this:
"they do not dare to call Paul a liar directly" ...
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> Who knows. Perhaps the Corinthians were able to change
> their sexual orientation.
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 My dear Bruce, art thou completely dense? "Orientation" is a psycho-
babble buzzword utterly bereft of all meaning and significance! Paul
is *not* talking about this fanciful "orientation". He states directly
that the sexual perverts among them ceased to be such following their
conversion and baptism and anointing. They ceased to be perverts
because they stopped *behaving* as perverts. Paul does not mention
whether or not they still lusted after strange-flesh. Perhaps some
of them did; but this did not stop them from *acting* as good and
faithful True Believers should. ... That is the point!
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> We do not say that sexual behavior is unchangable. Homosexuals,
> as for heterosexuals, can choose to be celibate. However, we do
> make the point that sexual orientation is, in the 20th century,
> essentially fixed in adults.
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 Really? And why on earth should you suppose that 20th century adults
are somehow different from all the previous generations? Has our great
and wondrous enlightened wisdom and super-scientific knowledge made
us into a new super-species of homo-sapiens? Are we all now little gods
and godlings, able to turn the cosmos inside out, and upside down, but
yet utterly incapable of changing our sexual habits and affections?
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 Let me tell you something: If people have changed, it only that they
are even more vain and arrogant and self-serving than they ever were!
And if this non-existent "orientation" is somehow "fixed", you may be
well assured that it is only because they wish it to be so!
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> Our survey of studies into the effectiveness of reparative therapy
> shows this. See:  http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exod.htm
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 Who gives a flying fart about reparative therapy? I'm talking about
handing everything that we have and are over to the Lord. I'm talking
about opening your hardened hearts to your Savior in humility and
thanksgiving. I'm talking about the power of faith and grace to
transform us into "new creatures" ... Into God's sons and daughters.
 Wut? You don't think that the Faith of the saints and apostles is
able to effect any significant changes in Believers? Check out the
testimonies of those who have done just that (thx2 Ben & MrsRat):
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     http://www.stonewallrevisited.com/index.html
     http://www.webpulse.com/sanctuary/dave/bibgay.htm
     http://www.messiah.edu/hpages/facstaff/chase/h/index.htm
     http://members.bellatlantic.net/~mjseydel/2god.html
     http://www.firststone.org/
     http://members.aol.com/delivermin/index.html
     http://www.clearsail.com/~mrnewman/index.htm
     http://homosexresolve.netministries.org/
     http://www.loveinaction.org/front.shtml
     http://www.telepath.com/lovgrace/
     http://personal.riverusers.com/~rtheckler/sins-god.htm
     http://www.execulink.com/~newdirec/
     http://www.tftrust.u-net.com/
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               the all-linked-out one:  textman  ;>
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