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/ Subject:
Re: Primer on Homo-Hermeneutics/3 / 13March99 /
/ Ngz: alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,
alt.christnet.bible /
.
>> textman wrote:
A PRIMER ON HOMO-HERMENEUTICS/3
>>
3. These Will Not Inherit the Kingdom
>> Or do you not
know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit God's
>> Kingdom? Do not be
deceived! Neither fornicators, nor idolaters,
>> nor adulterers, nor
effeminate appeasers, nor sexual perverts, nor
>> thieves, nor the greedy,
nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers
>> will inherit the Kingdom
of God. And these some of you were; but
>> you were washed and
sanctified and justified in the name of the
>> Lord Jesus Christ,
and in the Spirit of our God.
>> [1Corinthians 6:9-11
/ Prophet Version]
>> Now the homo-interpretation
of this passage begins with the
>> recognition that the
two Greek terms that I have here rendered
>> into English as 'effeminate
appeasers' and 'sexual perverts' have
>> been variously translated
in 25 English versions as 'unmanly',
>> 'decadent', 'homosexuals',
'sodomites', 'perverts', 'male
>> prostitutes', 'catamites',
'pederasts', and so on. From all this
>> the writers observe
that "Apparently, lesbians are not included in
>> this condemnation."
But this suggestion clearly does violence to
>> the passage, since
Paul is obviously being deliberately inclusive
>> in this list of unrighteous
people ...
.
> JohnJ <[email protected]>
answers: I've clipped the rest of this silly
> post. If Paul did not
mean males where you rendered it "sexual
> perverts", why did
he write in Greek, "male-bed".
.
Dear JohnJ, 'arsenokoitai'
does not mean 'male-bed'. According to my
lexicon, 'arsenokoites'
means 'one guilty of unnatural offenses'. Now
I have seen definitions
that make reference to this obscure 'male-bed'
thingy of yours, but
this obviously harkens back to the original root
meanings of the root
words. Which is to say that centuries later, when
the Koine Greek was being
used everywhere, the word had developed
new meanings and uses.
Thus when Paul uses 'arsenokoitai' he is
obviously NOT referring
to 'male-beds', but rather to sexual perverts
in general. If Paul had
wanted to be more particular by focusing
specifically on gays,
he would have said pederasts (or 'paiderasste') or
sodomites, or something
to that effect. So there is a very good reason
why Paul chose the term
'arsenokoitai', and it certainly wasn't to make
reference to something
as absurd as male-beds!
.
> Now, if you want to
render it "sexual perverts" that is fine with me.
.
It is? Please excuse
my skepticism ...
.
> That does not mean
"homosexuals"!
.
According to JohnJ,
no, of course not. But according to the Word
of God it most certainly
includes homosexuals of all genders and
transgenders and subgenders,
all gays and bi's and dykes and femmes,
and even all the many
stripes and colors of the pervert-rainbow.
Moreover, the Lord does
not make special provisions for "consensual
and committed adults
in 'loving' same-sex partnerships". . . .
.
> If you folks do not
think so, go to the online dictionary page
> which will let you
put "pervert" in the seach line and select "all
> dictionaries" and you'll
find out that "sexual pervert" is never
> equated with homosexual.
http://www.onelook.com/
.
That's true enough.
Modern dictionaries would not dare to be so
politically incorrect
as to link the two words together directly.
However, the various
definitions of 'pervert' (that I found by way of
John's recommended www.onelook.com)
are *very* suggestive ...
.
From Vine's Expository
Dictionary of New Testament Words:
Topic: Perverse, Pervert
-> "to turn away" is used metaphoricallly
in the sense of "perverting"
in Luke 23:14. "to distort, twist" is
translated "to pervert"
in Luke 23:2. "turned aside, corrupted," in
Matt. 17:17; Luke 9:41;
Acts 20:30; Phil. 2:15. "to transform into
something of an opposite
character" as the Judaizers sought to
"pervert the gospel of
Christ. "to turn inside out", "to change
entirely," is used metaphorically
in Titus 3:11, RV, "is perverted"
(AV, "is subverted").
See SUBVERT.
.
From Webster's
dictionary: PERVERT -> 1. To turn from truth,
propriety, or from its
proper purpose; to distort from its true use or
end; as, to pervert reason
by misdirecting it; to pervert the laws by
misinterpreting and misapplying
them; to pervert justice; to pervert
the meaning of an author;
to pervert nature; to pervert truth.
2. To turn from the right;
to corrupt.
.
From Merriam-Webster
Dictionary: per·vert -> 1 to cause to turn aside
or away from what is
good or true or morally right. CORRUPT: to cause
to turn aside or away
from what is generally done or accepted.
MISDIRECT: to divert
to a wrong end or purpose. MISUSE: to twist the
meaning or sense of.
MISINTERPRET: synonym see DEBASE. per·vert·er noun
.
Hey, John, does
any of this ring any bells with you?
.
> I just ran through
all the dictionaries and nowhere did I find
> homosexual for sexual
pervert. I did find 'pederast' and 'sodomite'
> in a synomym section,
but not 'homosexual'. You translate good,
.
Why thx, John.
It's very good of you to appreciate this. I suppose
then, that you would
not want to be so ungallant as to suggest that
homosexuals ought to
be counted among the Lord's Righteous Ones ... ?
.
> whoever you are. <G>
.
Oh ho! So you don't
know who textman is, do you? This explains a lot.
Most of your sort have
sense enough to steer well clear of the prophet.
Lest the Lord smite them
with a most awful and terrifying smite-ing! :)
.
> It is clear that sexual
pervert cannot meant homosexual:
> "Overt homosexual practices
are still regarded as perversions, from
> a legal point of view
in some communities. However, the presence of
> homosexual tendencies
is considered within the normal range by
> clinicians." Dictionary
of Psychology, J. P. Chaplin, Ph.D., 1985
.
Gee, the faithless
servants of the Evil One think that homosexuality
is not a perversion at
all, but indeed is "normal", do they? . . .
Wow! I am, like, sooooooo
shocked, Uno! [insert copious sarcasm here]
.
> As far as the legal
jurisdictions, Alabama still has it outlawed for
> blacks and whites to
marry! <G>
.
And this relevant
to the current discussion how?
.
> The Roget's International
Thesaurus, 5th Ed., 1992. "heterosexual,
> straight" are in section
75.13 "homosexual; bisexual; lesbian"
> are in section 75.14
In section 75:16 are the synonyms:
> "sexual pervert; pervert,
deviant, deviate, sex or sexual pervert,
> sex fiend, sex criminal,
sexual psychopath; sodomist, sodomite,
> sob <Brit nonformal>,
bugger; pederast; paraphiliac; zoophiliac;
> pedophiliac; sadist;
masochist; sado-masochist; ......."
> on and on, but not
homosexual!
.
Well, John, I guess
you're conveniently forgetting that the original
root meaning of the Greek
word 'arsenokoitai' (ie. male-bed) clearly
indicates that homosexuals
are to be considered as foremost among
those sexual perverts
that Paul is referring to.
.
> Textman, if I were
you, I'd hold to that comic's job before quiting
> to become a Bible translator
or expositor. <G> JohnJ
.
Well, John, I don't
have a job (or indeed any means of acquiring an
income), and my "wit"
has not gained me even so much as a milligram of
gold. In any case, while
I am already a translator and expositor of the
Sacred Scriptures, that
is certainly not my primary function. No indeed,
for I am called by the
Lord of Glory to be a prophet unto His lost and
wayward People; and *that*
is my vocation (now & unto my final breath)!
.
the one in very short supply: textman 
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/ Subject: Re: Primer
on Homo-Hermeneutics/4 / 14Mar99 /
/ Ngz: alt.christnet.bible,
alt.religion.christian.biblestudy /
.
>>>> [email protected]
wrote: A PRIMER ON HOMO-HERMENEUTICS/4
>>>> 4. The
Problem With Jude <snip the whole thang!>
.
>>> "*** Joe ***" <[email protected]>
replied: There is No problem with
>>> Jude, however some
people have a problem understanding Jude.
>>> Jude 1:1 Jude, a
bondservant of Jesus Christ ...
.
>> Dear Joe, about
your translation: VERY FRAGGIN GROSS!!!!
>>
the one who despises bad translations: textman ;>
.
> *** Joe *** <[email protected]>
replies: Hello textman
.
textman answers:
Hi Ho, Joe ... :)
.
> Please tell us who
you are to make such a bold statement;
.
textman: a slave
of Jesus Christ, and a brother to the prophet James.
.
> please post your credentials?
.
My WUT?! Credentials?
Oh, good grief! ... Well ... ummmm ... That is,
I used to have credentials,
but I seem to have misplaced them . . .
However, if you have
the faith to believe that the Lord of Glory is
able to send upon His
wayward People a lowly and worthless prophet
(such as textman), then
be advised that any authority I may have comes
solely from the Holy
Spirit Herself; praise be Her grace and generosity!
.
> It's good to have you
in the group.
.
Thx. It's much
appreciated. But I'm not actually new to this group.
Not by any means. In
fact, a.c.bible used to be one of my favorite ngz.
But I've been avoiding
posting here lately because the UseNet censors
and moderators have been
going out of their way to give me grief,
and indeed practically
forced me out. But I am now returned (though
doubtless only for a
short time), because there is no ng in cyberspace
that needs me more than
this one! That's why I posted Primer on Homo-
Hermeneutics here, as
well as to a.r.c.biblestudy. May it make a
lasting impression upon
those who need it most!
.
> book of Jude (KJV)
1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother
> of James, to them that
are sanctified by God the Father, and
> preserved in Jesus
Christ, [and] called: <snip rest of epistle>
.
This is a slight
improvement; in that the KJV is a *marginally* better
translation than the
one you presented previously. But this too is,
alas, woefully inadequate;
and indeed a rather shoddy piece of work.
The Prophet Version is,
by comparison, vastly superior in every
conceivable way. After
all, who is more able to translate the words
of a prophet than another
prophet? Neither scholar nor bishop nor
committee is thus fit
to do justice to the wonderfully synthetic mind
of the prophet Jude!
... Therefore, receive thee the IEV with faith
and gratitude; as befits
a true disciple being worthy of the Name:
.
"From
Jude: a slave of Jesus Christ,
and
a brother to [the prophet] Jacob.
To
those Called Ones: loved by God the Father,
and
kept in Jesus Christ. Mercy to you!
And
may peace and love be multiplied."
-- The Universal
Epistle of Jude v.1-2 / PV
.
- the
one called to call the half-called ones - textman ;>
x
textman
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