Science and Religion Message Board 4060-4500 (missing posts)

Sorry, I've no expertise in that field... without knowing how your computer models work, and the assumptions you build into them about genetic and environmental variation - detailed information I wouldn't expect you to provide in the limited confines of this forum - I really have nothing useful to say about your computer models at all :( wish I could help, as I'm cetainly intrigued by your posts, but have no way of assessing them.

On the general point that we don't know every variable that we need to consider when building models, of course that is true. That's one advantage of building models - in addition to telling what we do know, it tells us where the gaps in our knowledge are.

All in all, science is a much humbler exercise than religion. We tend to confine ourselves, for the most part, to picayune details. It's only when the details are considered together that the bigger picture emerges. But 99% of science deals with the details.

Leszek,

Which brings us back to my original point.

Religion deals with great matters of truth while Science deals with details of faith.

TOM

If religion would accept a limitation of "great matters of Truth," there would still be great differences in "Truths" that would lead to mass murder and genocide, TOM. My experiences with religions is that they spend an awful lot of energy mis-defining details to align with their "truths."

On the other hand, science doesn’t limit itself to details either. If you read a few general science textbooks, you’ll find a rather amazing tendency to extrapolate tiny details into universal "truths" that change as fast as the books can be printed one year to the next. This observation of real life leads me to believe both science and religion are extremely susceptible to the sin of overweaning pride.

Any provisional "truth" presented as absolute "truth" is a lie, even if the lie is misinterpretation rather than a deliberate falsehood. Religion has quite a bit more to say about lies than science does... even when it’s lying. Do two lies make a "truth?"

I'll be perfectly honest and say I know of no theological claim outside the realm of scientific testability that is "true" in any sense. Lots of theologians think their systems are true, but that just don't make it so.

Let me say this about that.

A major scientific hobby shared by many scientists of my acquaintance is the collection of text-book errors - and the more text-books that enshrine the error in question, the more prized the gaff. So we are aware that textbooks contain errors.

As to your point that scientists extrapolate from the small to the large, this is often true. Sometimes the extrapolations are based on solid evidence and logic, sometimes they are speculative flights of fancy. In the latter case they are often identified as such, though some (perhaps you could give some concrete examples, I am sure there are many, but none instantly spring to mind) may be completely unjustified. This is a case of caveat emptor. The more educated and informed the reader is, the more she or he can see through the flannel.

What if we were to leave out scientific testability, and judged the various religious "truths" on their actual basis of psychological and sociological "truth?" In this viewpoint, a religious "truth" which sustains psychological health, sociological order and personal happiness for any given population of individuals subject to the religion throughout the course of their generational lifespans could well be considered "truth" despite genocidal clashes between societies and religions. At least, it would be more "true" than any provisional political or scientific "truth" which in no way effects an individual’s lifelong wellbeing pro or con.

And, in provisional terms, as much genocide has been perpetrated by politicians (aided by science and its passion for ever-deadlier WMDs) as by religions, so that can’t be an adequate measure of "untruth."

As for science, it oversteps its legitimate grounds attempting to make its provisional "truths" the evolutionary successor to both religion and politics. I mean, how much better - really - is any individual human being with nuclear-generated electricity than with hydroelectric power to run their air conditioning? How much happier are people who eat genetically engineered tomatoes than those who eat organic tomatoes? How much stronger is a family unit with 7 engineered test-tube babies all born at once than a family who had just one baby every few years?

I would have to guess that individuals who subscribe to a "higher" authority for purposes of psychological and social adaptive behaviors and relative "happiness" will find greater reward in religion than in politics or science. Which is probably why science isn’t going to replace religion in the hearts and minds of humanity any time soon.

...Which is not to say that any given provisional "truth" - including the so-called higher power - need be absolutely "true" by any long term measure when discussing the actual conditions of life for individuals alive on this planet.

Just thought I'd add that, since we have no real way of proving absolute "truths" on any level.

Joy and Leszek,

I have no disagreement at all with either of your comments. I think, however, that my statement still stands - as do yours.

The truth (religion) is more dangerous than faith (science) because it is the reality of it's adherents. No other truths can be tolerated if only one is 'real'.

TOM

...Somebody’s inevitably going to ask (because I just asked myself on re-reading my previous posts) how we deal with the perennial religious propensity to proclaim absolute "truth" and wage genocide in its name, now that science has gifted politicians with WMDs. Religion is already intertwined with politics, and always has been or there would be no historical record of religious genocide to worry about. One of these days a religious fanatic is going to get hold of WMDs, we can be sure.

We need to talk. Seriously. We need to agree that our "truths" are provisional, and agree not to impose them on anyone else by force or coersion. We need to admit to the limitations of applicability and accept our relative positions without seeking more power than any provisional "truth" deserves. We have to cure the sin of pride, or at least regulate it better.

This is never going to happen without a very significant evolutionary development in human nature, having nothing much to do with education, culture or environment. Since we really don’t need an extra pair of arms or mammary glands (test tube families excepted), I’d have to guess such a development would occur in the brain.

Just my opinion, of course! §;o)

I've never argued anything other than that scientific knowledge is provisional. Nor have I argued that science is at all likely to replace religion - a religion dosn't have to be "true" in a scientific sense to be useful to an adherent.

I know that, Leszek. You’ve been terrific as a provider of alternative ideas against which to base a tossed argument, though! §:o)

FYI

Sorry for any inconvenience this caused.

Thank you,

Perhaps religious knowledge (appropriately deciphered) can be subjected to the same rigourous evaluation as per science ...why not?

The priests in the temples can no longer shield themselves ...***

Perhaps it is time in this day of scientific knowledge for the priests to come forth and answer for what they and those before them have done to the Books of GOD!

afterthought:

...as otherwise the priests in the temples might be out of a job!

...oops! a friend here reminded me that all of them have traded in the temples for banks and their robes for business suits!!

...aaah! no wonder they were called the temple money changers.

...and what is the new religion called *** ?

Who decides what the "appropriate" interpretation will be, ardjuna?

...and what have the priests "done" to the "books of God" other than to interpret?

I’d say the "new" religion is politics, which is pretty much the same as the "old" religion of politics. Nothing has changed.

I thought that the field of theology was devoted to this endeavor. I cannot vouch for the amount of rigor that a particular verse may be subjected to but in order to confirm the accuracy of a point or concept as it relates to specific faiths, some form of error checking must be employed.

The new religion is a rather old religion which can be summed up by one word - materialism. It is the belief that fulfillment in life can only be obtained through the possession of material things. I am not particularly religious but I do recognize the fallacy of this belief system.

Theology is a lot like law, E.C. First, there is language. A theology student must study the original languages (Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Aramaic in some schools). This facilitates study of the history upon which the religion is founded, and allows in-depth interpretations.

Then there’s the "Rules." This equates to the Rules of evidence, the Rules of arguments, and the Rules of Court. These are different for different denominations and result from previous historical interpretations. Interpretations of first impression are frowned upon.

Then there’s the practice of Logic and debate. Theological interpretations must follow the defined logic and be supportable by historic reference. It’s your basic branch of Applied Philosophy. Philosophy is internally consistent with itself, but remains subjective. Science does not concern itself with the practice of law, for precisely the reason that law is a product of human consciousness, not an independently existing "thing" that can be measured and tested. For the same reason science should not concern itself with the examination of theology (religion).

The God -the first ,the last ,the law, the language - Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Aramaic ,Sanskrit,Hindi,Arabic ,Urdu ,Chinese(all 148 countries).I am just a disabled human being with the God given knowledge. Right now ,you utter in above languages simultaneously to me Using english with Greek or german umlouts ie I hit 27 letters keyboard or write in pencil,I can reproduce everything with correct pronunciation all words uttered without writing a full word.It is spy language for english and all above.The cloners ,to gene alterers to 60 billion dollar signatories bank loan recipient- PM/presidents would not be able to read own legal paper.In fact I can teach entire world english and window 98 instantly,remotely.Who am I compared to the God? That is why I wrote in Cloning section ,that human or goat cloning (real) replacing God is not possible.

But there is a great deal of religion that science (particularly psychology and sociology) can and has examined. Many eminent scientists have examined religious phenomena, including James, Freud, Jung, Festinger; and many scientists have done work that bears on religious belief, such as on cognitive dissonance and group dynamics. While some aspects of religion are by their nature impossible to examine scientifically, much can still be done.

I'm a little bit lost here.

He did the same thing on the evolution board. I think it is some kind of wholistic, spiritual purity thingy, but I wouldn't swear to it.

Why doesn't CNN just close this board and merge it with the Religion board so people like "benz zakar" can chant their tantric vibrations there to synchronize and harmonize with the Kanzeonic rhythm, BU parables, Homeric apologetics, RoseFan rantings, Kingsley parables, and Fosberg oneliners?

Yes, that is true--sometimes.

As well they most certainly should be, Joy. Interpretation of religious writing should be based on the best evidence available in re-constructing the original thought, not a meaningless re-interpretation. It is my opinion that only the best of scholarship is likely to be even close. Incidentally, I read a review of a new book in "Biblical Archaeology Review" last night, entitled: From Epic to Canon by Frank Moore Cross of Harvard University. It sure sounded interesting. The price is $45.00, unfortunately, but Professor Cross is, without a doubt, the greatest Bible scholar of our time. I sure want that book.

I totally disagree with you Tom H.T. This board is almost halfway civilized. Let's keep it the way it is.

I agree with you 100%. Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the facts. Furthermore, Arguments from authority carry little weight (In science there are no "authorities" while in religion there are often either self proclaimed authorities or appointed ones. This is the inherent weakness of religion).

No scientific "authorities?" Whoa. This is something new, E.C. It’s certainly not what the unwashed masses are being taught in school and fed through the media...

Yes, I know what you're saying, but that's because I've been exposed to the true "mystery" of the priesthood. Most people are not led to believe there are no scientific authorities. §:o)

Although my wording is harsh it is true. When absolute authorities regarding different fields of science are designated then the underlying principles of science dissolve.

I have studied and quoted my findings from the real research , Bible,Torah,Quran,Hinduism,Buddhism and others except cultism of Jim Jones ,Koresh,Heavens Gate,Winners & Losers,organ & bank loan sharks,In the absence of a Phd resident preacher-Rabbi-Imam ,the public asked me to lead the services many many times where it is common when a scientist,engineer,labourer ,shopkeeper with adequate religious teaching find himself performing a service.But you would be in a shock too when you find a preacher without science- medical-engineering education supervising research grants on cloning,gene modification ,organ-on-demand ,pyramid archeology,biblical archeology,$Bs banking and preaching .

I can say but "amen" to this, E.C. The current climate of social insecurity (despite supposedly increasing "wealth") only adds to this situation exponentially. There are a large number of people now reaching middle age who are just now coming to terms with the fact that materialism will not satisfy the psychological goals of their lifetimes on this earth. This is unfortunately the same generation which is essentially the first to be raised from childhood with serious restrictions on being taught anything other than materialism. We can blame their parents all we like, but the parents (presuming there are 2, which often there are not) are busy working 16 hours a day trying to keep up with the marketing.

Ignoring human psychological needs is as dangerous as ignoring human physical needs. Modern Amerika ignores both, to its inevitable demise.

Forgive my ignorance, Benz Zakar. I do not know if you are Mr. or Ms., and which is your proper name of address. I have made this mistake before, so please inform me of friendly (informal) address so we can speak as friends.

I see the thread (I think) in your posts, that there is a separation between religion and science. I am unsure of whether you believe this to be necessary, or a product of modern life. Can you explain your viewpoint further please? I do want to understand your position. §:o)

I fully agree that this is true in principle. And yet there are titles given to certain people in science as well as other fields that are intended to carry weight. One such title is "Professor." Certainly, I tend to grant more authority to the opinions of scientists who carries such a title. I think most people do. Also, I notice that you have chosen to add the "Ph.D." appendage to your name. There is certainly nothing wrong with it, of course, but in an age when religious scholars tend to avoid such academic appendages, I wonder what your purpose might be in adding it to your identity on this informal message board. Surely it is not for the purpose of giving yourself added "authority" in matters within your own scientific field :-)

I fully agree that this is true in principle. And yet there are titles given to certain people in science as well as other fields that are intended to carry weight. One such title is "Professor." Certainly, I tend to grant more authority to the opinions of scientists who carries such a title. I think most people do. Also, I notice that you have chosen to add the "Ph.D." appendage to your name. There is certainly nothing wrong with it, of course, but in an age when religious scholars tend to avoid such academic appendages, I wonder what your purpose might be in adding it to your identity on this informal message board. Surely it is not for the purpose of giving yourself added "authority" in matters within your own scientific field :-)

Hi Cliff. By no means is this appendage an indication of insecurity or what have you. For some reason, I am no longer able to sign in under my regular handle of E.C. so I used an older and less humble designation which happened to allow me to sign in. As explained to Joy, I am still as dumb as a container of lowfat cottage cheese regardless of those dreaded three letters. I will revert back to plain E.C. once the CNN elves recognize their grievous error. I am somewhat embarrased by this situation.

...Oh, let's face it. We're salted goat-butter. Hard on the arteries, harder on the thinking process, and able to toss it around...

I think that's okay. As long as we eat enough roughage, we'll be fine... §:o)

:-)

Joy, salted goat-butter, you say? Thanks for the laughs. You both had me rolling on the floor.

E.C., you disarmed me so effectively with your humor that I almost forgot that you did not address my main point: titles give to highly regarded scientists. When a scientist is granted a professorship, it is generally considered meaningful. (In a sense, this would seem to give said scientists certain "authority," meaning that their opinions generally carries greater weight as a result of the title--in direct contradiction to your assertion.) How do you answer that?

Incidentally, you might as well know that I have a very high regard for your Ph.D. I believe I have a concept of what you did to acquire that degree and it is meaningful. My preference would be that you might wear it easily. You earned it, and I think you ought to be able to wear it without apology--nevermind what appears, increasingly, to be current convention regarding such. (But do be aware that it will tend to make you a target of my smartass remarks. Cheers.

E.C., Joy, Cliff:

Despite my doctorate, I am absolutely dependent upon authorities in fields other than my own. The few scientists/engineers I know who feel otherwise are physicists, and Joy and I have previously made mirth of the myth of their nonstinking feces.

It is simply infeasible for me to dig into more that a tiny fraction of the debates over data handling and analysis. Although my knowledge of good scientific practice and proper use of statistics does not go out the window, I have to let the acknowledged authorities in the field give their arguments, and I have to decide from which authority I want to take my pabulum.

No matter how fine one's degree, one ends up being a partially informed consumer of others' science most of the time.

I was honestly trying to think of something richer than whipping cream, Cliff. Have you ever tried to separate goat milk from goat cream? Need a mechanical device... ergo, goat-butter. Good stuff. But that's because I know goats, I guess... §:o)

E.C.'s telling the truth. (Were you gone?) The Elves did have a major shakeup, as did the system. Read all about it past-tense on the Community board, but he couldn't sign in as who he was. Had to add the extras.

I'm glad he did, personally!

You are right that we are all partially informed consumers of ideas, Thom. And we also have provisional/partial answers from both sides tp absolute questions. I believe there's a middle ground that can accomodate all.

...of course, I also believe there are fairies living in my spring... §:o)

...which there are, of course.

§:o)

Joy Busey - Wednesday, 06/30/99, 4:49:15pm "benz zakar 6/30/99 4:28pm Forgive my ignorance, Benz Zakar. I do not know if you are Mr. or Ms., and which is your proper name of address. I have made this mistake before, so please inform me of friendly (informal) address so we can speak as friends. I see the thread (I think) in your posts, that there is a separation between religion and science. I am unsure of whether you believe this to be necessary, or a product of modern life. Can you explain your viewpoint further please? I do want to understand your position. §:o)"

Thanks ,I am Mr , a Scientist-Engineer, married with children.

I think I can match Tom Harpers requirement( I see the theological attachments in each religion from the oldest to the newest via #4089):

Tom Harper - Wednesday, 06/30/99, 8:28:09am (#4088 of 4105)

Joy, "Theological interpretations must follow the defined logic and be supportable by historic reference."

I also wrote to Canadian research Institute assembling Neutrinos research to do experiments in future ,I had found the mass years ago and have answers to things which scientists are working on it. Even the spy language "terminology " quoted earlier should be rephrased -"It is a tool showing construction of all languages ,specially modern english and modern greek"

Yes, Joy you are right ,we should talk .Buyer beware, I have booked myself a medical appointiment for mental checkup too.

My Email; [email protected]

You have a mass for neutrinos, Benz (hope that's your first name)? Please tell...

I am curious as to your language reference. What are you speaking of, and how does a "basic language" fit in to your story? Thanks!

Thom, I think you have completely missed the point of this discourse.

E.C. said that in science there is no authority. By this, I believe he meant, to use an Okie expression: "the proof is in the pudding." Obviously, anyone who works in science must use the scientific method. If one argues with science, science will win. Science will always win. In this sense, there is no "authority," except science itself. For example, if one's theory is correct, the lack of "authority" is beside the point. Also, if one's theory is wrong, no advanced degree can make it right. In science, one is judged by the strength of one's argument, not by credentials worn on the arm. Sounds good, huh?

However, while this is valid in principle, I have noticed that scientists sometimes offer opinions not necessarily grounded in the scientific method, but instead are mere speculation which are sometimes granted undue regard due to the "credentials" of the speaker. I wished to attempt to engage E.C. on that issue and see what he would say, and at the same time, I decided to have a little fun. I suppose the real answer is that credentials do count, but the argument has to be there too. In short, Thom, I may not have an advanced degree--or any degree at all--but I am no respecter of fools with advanced degrees. I will still test your argument.

Thom, I regret getting overly personal in the last sentence of my previous post. I was just nailing down the point, and, unfortunately, I did not carefully read what I had written to see how it sounded before posting. Please no offense. If I had it to do over, I would still try to make the same point, but without the pointed languge. Sorry about that, Chief.

Joy, I also believe there are fairies living in your spring.

Joy,

"(1) Interpretations allow the less-educated to get their daily dose of religiosity without having to use neural circuits they either don’t have or would rather not employ.

(2) Interpretations serve the base of wealth and power that arises from a stratified societal base, allowing for the free exercise of overweaning pride by the terminally prideful."

I agree with your view of interpretations. Your illustrations point to chaos as a better state. Take a little Science, a little experience, a few opinions of the enlightened and then figure it out for yourself.

TOM

Yes,joy : One book wrote as "the Lord is the light of the heaven which remains switched on showing 60W bulb and electricity" while the cartoon depicted oil converted as electricity and nearby Tom Harpur's Sermon : " Military helicopter purchase(worth $4.4B ) simply reeks of hypocrisy" sept 27,1992; a Thomson's "winners make $15 in blood business" (sept 29) , 930,000 hutus -tutsis slaughtered overnight ,UN to probe soldiers from Canada-US-India in Bosnia & Kashmir & Hindu states region ( Dec 15,1993),blood victims now in Canada,Japan,Israel ,US seek compensation.Canadian Research Centre is assembling 10,000 photomultipliers to do neutrinos research .I simply wrote I worked for 3 major R&D Labs of the world and had assembled photomultipliers for one and only mfr.I also wrote Neutrinos findings (from my viewpoint depicting mass seperating it from the light of the God .Now for basic language ,if I am correct the 27 key board and english 101 and window 98 seem to be sufficient to hit and produce all languages ( with existing software with my slight modification) ,loan signatories legal paper and Cloner's transcript or formula.The gene alterers or cloners can ask goats ,innie,minie,money for the lost transcript or loan receiptients can ask Banks and IMF .You know what the reply of the goat will be. As for cloning or ethnic cleansing funding Billion dollar loan signatories via IMF dollar,IMF Euro ,IMF Yen ,IMF Riyal (collusion), I will be happy to give you linkage and origin , name of the labs history, and funding and framing.May be you could include Ayodhya mosque destruction feb 1993 (as place of birth of God Ram).For which I wrote , at zero population in India ,China had population .Ram must have had Noah's ark related parents who had descended at nearby Himalaya's highest peak after the great flood.I also wrote that I saw enemies (via CNN board)o

By no means is this a criticism. I am just somewhat concerned about the lack of focus in your posts. Is there a central idea that we can gleen from your writing?

Joy ,

I am concerned that $15 Billion/yr blood business in 1992 is multiplying rapidly into triple the amount with US promotion "It is OK to have organ-on- demand". In some countries ,they are simply going next door and removing organs to severed hands and legs from live people.I also wrote that I saw enemies (via CNN board)of Haj Pilgrims sprinkling phosphorous creating stampede and deaths and can locate 70,000 tents burning contract money - going from IMF Riyal . As for my parents and linkage with the God.My mother is in Toronto in 70's and Goddesses oriented and a brother was impersonating me.Now the father .the son and the holy ghost are for sermons and christian churches and has significance too for christians and others .Let's seperate it with the God and science or specific religion.In fact , interpretation is an art .When you work in labs,plants,data, patent and research only for 35 years (only interpreting )while having light of the Lord (greater than 60W ),you have a by-product like me and you of science,religion ,politics,and finance ,or crazy nations obsessed with oil,killing,stealing,possessing or as in today's caption in one rich country's paper,"let's all eat cake " for which Mary anntoinette was beheaded.Don't hesitate to ask for proofs. Benz Zakar

I'm afraid to ask for proof, Benz. In fact, I'm not at all sure what I'd be asking for. Can you narrow it down to one subject?

I admit to slight sarcasm, TOM. It’s quite a giggle to think there are as many "absolute truths" as there are people to hold them true. Seems like this would be a fairly obvious indicator that spirituality is directly related to human psychology, but religions don’t see it that way. Has something to do with money, I think.

I’m beginning to suspect he doesn’t speak English and is using translation software that doesn’t speak English either.

Messrs Joy Busy, E.C.Phd and Tom H

You are right.I don't know how do you guess .You have highly inquisitive mind and psychoanalysis skill and linguistics talent.

I have focussing problem. When people have access to hundreds of billions of dollars in activities described and knows their enemy , resistance source and would not let you have even your own ..what do you get.....Sheik Bush - Sheikha Thatcher of Kuwait ,Lord Fahd & Lord Salman ,your replica and no money breaking all rules of violation prohibited by the God, USA, Canada,Europe and the World.....What do they get hefty wealth and everything mentioned .Let's open the files past and present.Please focuss !

The good part is that when I wrote the same thing in 10 Downing St Message Board early this year ,President Clinton, T Blair , NATO rushed to help in Kosovo .

WHY COUNT THE TREE ( my tries in my ethnic lang) EAT THE FRUIT ! as you said :

Joy Busey - Thursday, 07/01/99, 1:19:01pm (#4116 of 4117) " benz zakar 7/1/99 11:10am

Can you narrow it down to one subject? "

Joy Busey - Thursday, 07/01/99, 1:31:53pm (#4117 of 4117)

"Tom Harper 7/1/99 7:52am

I admit to slight sarcasm, TOM. It’s quite a giggle to think there are as many "absolute truths" as there are people to hold them true. Seems like this would be a fairly obvious indicator that spirituality is directly related to human psychology, but religions don’t see it that way. Has something to do with money, I think".

E.C., Ph.D. 7/1/99 10:44am

"I’m beginning to suspect he doesn’t speak English and is using translation software that doesn’t speak English either".

True .Alas ! my poor english ... Please ,evaluate the content 1... 2/blood 3/...4/.. or let me speak in person in detail without giving shame for my editing skill .At least ,I had managed to learn seven difficult foreign languages at age 20 a

I really am trying to understand what you are trying to say, Benz. So far I think I understand that you have worked many years in a technological industry analyzing data, and that the data you have analyzed greatly disturbs you. I think I also understand that what disturbs you are things that relate to world politics, presumably because of the multinational clients whose data you analyzed.

I am not clear on the "blood" issue you have repeated several times, and see that this may be the primary subject. Are you speaking about the Red Cross, or about the weapons industries that cause so much needless bloodshed in the world? You may be making a connection between these two things which I am not understanding.

Please keep trying, and so will I. §:o)

Joy Busey - Thursday, 07/01/99, 3:00:27pm (#4119 of 4119)

"I really am trying to understand what you are trying to say, Benz. So far I think I understand that you have worked many years in a technological industry "

yes ...until a replica had taken over at highest level. One of the Government MP/Senator, remarked "my staff has done research .May God Has mercy upon you, me and the world.For you it is systematic de-professionalization,regression , maximum human rights violation at the unlimited amount of money it can buy .For the rest of us (world),it seems that a group of few individuals and leaders have accumulated power ,finance and molding the world to suit their financial and power infrastructure".

Joy, please don't get addicted as the Lady said ; " why do you ask something which cannot be disclosed ". Benz Zakar

Leszek: "How many practical inventions did any theologian make?"

How many worthwhile contributions to the human sould did people like Edison and Von Braun make?

I knew Von Braun. He was a mean-spirited, nasty cussing cuss, fluent in English and German swearing. He kicked at cats, and scowled at his neighbors (some times).

Progress isn't measured in just scientific terms. While our nation has taken off, quite literally, in terms of its technology, it's regressed significantly in terms of its sociological capabilities.

Witness divorce, kids being raised in absentia, lack of learning about healthy, loving relationships at an early age... We're raising generations of people ill-equipped for healthy interaction in a well-populated society.

Sorry, Joy, but I can't buy that. I know way too many people who've traded million$ for a lifetime of healthy, happy service with God Almighty.

Dave, you say you know people who have given up millions of dollars to serve God. Anyone I might have heard of?

What’s not to buy, Dave? That human spirituality is deeply rooted in human psychology? Surely you jest! God doesn’t stamp our backsides with the equivalent of USDA Approved when we are born. God doesn’t talk directly to human beings lately ("voices" are now recognized as symptomatic of schitzophrenia), God doesn’t strike bad guys down with lightning, God doesn’t bestow divine right on politicians, God never has saved anybody from death since before the Flood, and God does not cure the sins of human nature which are a consequence of free will.

Other than the Bible and religious scriptures pertinent to other religions, along with the human interpretations of scriptures and the political institution of religion itself, there is no objective, empirical "proof" that God exists or is materially in charge of this world or the human beings in it.

Yet the spiritual impulse remains. Science can neither prove nor disprove subjective or psychological experience nor pronounce "truth" or "untruth" on the products of human logic and philosophy. So long as God remains a subjective product of the human heart and mind, any religious claim to objective reality is highly questionable.

Dave Resnick - Thursday, 07/01/99, 9:13:55pm (#4121 of 4124) "Leszek: How many practical inventions did any theologian make?"

How about these? "benz zakar 7/1/99 12:31am - 1. "I also wrote to Canadian research Institute assembling Neutrinos research ,I had found the mass "

Joy Busey : You have a mass for neutrinos, Benz (hope that's your first name)? Please tell...

benz zakar - Thursday, 07/01/99, 10:09:10am (#4113 of 4124)

Yes,joy : One book wrote as "the Lord is the light of the heaven which remains switched on showing 60W bulb

Canadian Research Centre is assembling 10,000 photomultipliers to do neutrinos research .

I simply wrote I worked for 3 major R&D Labs of the world and had assembled photomultipliers for one and only mfr.I also wrote Neutrinos findings (from my viewpoint depicting mass seperating it from the light of the God ..

2. Even the spy language "terminology " quoted earlier should be rephrased -"It is a tool showing construction of all languages ,specially modern english and modern greek"

3 if 2000 yrs ago had population say 1-5 million-how old is religion and Noah's flood ?

May be you could include Ayodhya mosque destruction feb 1993 (as place of birth of God Ram).For which I wrote , at zero population in India ,China had population .Ram must have had Noah's ark related parents who had descended at nearby Himalaya's highest peak after the great flood.

4. scientific terms , technology, sociological capabilities.

Joy Busey - Thursday, 07/01/99, 3:00:27pm (#4119 of 4124)

I really am trying to understand what you are trying to say, Benz.

I am not clear on the "blood"

benz : when eggs are fertilized ,bloods are formed The God links with human on 120th day of pregnancy and a quality inspection report is made listing - nature of formation , length

Joy Busey - Thursday, 07/01/99, 3:00:27pm (#4119 of 4124)

I really am trying to understand what you are trying to say, Benz.

I am not clear on the "blood"

benz : when eggs are fertilized ,bloods are formed The God links with human on 120th day of pregnancy and a quality inspection report is made listing - nature of formation , length of survival, performance and properties

Dave Resnick - Thursday, 07/01/99, 9:19:16pm (#4122 of 4124)

"Joy Busey 7/1/99 1:31pm Seems like this would be a fairly obvious indicator that spirituality is directly related to human psychology"

Joy Busey - Friday, 07/02/99, 11:22:58am (#4124 of 4124)

"Dave Resnick 7/1/99 9:19pm

God doesn’t talk directly to human beings lately ("voices" are now recognized as symptomatic of schitzophrenia)"

5. Benz: True ,but the GOD communicates with human on one to one basis (as if human) if you follow rules of entry , a kind of unwired internet .The God bestowed favour to human and actually gave away so call wired internet .Man is so ungrateful

Dave Resnick - Thursday, 07/01/99, 9:19:16pm (#4122 of 4124) "Joy Busey 7/1/99 1:31pm Seems like this would be a fairly obvious indicator that spirituality is directly related to human psychology"

6 Benz : as I wrote in Evolution of the God(first who created universe,earth,ocean,human).Unto HIM returns everything for recycling as human and attachments- cars,oil,bricks,lumber etc)He gave population control manual.encyclopedia of everything - I found them like Rabbi (below) said below :

In a religious seminar in Jerusalem recently , a Rabbi walked away over surface of muddy water crossing 16 ft streams.Behind him representatives of other religion fell in 4 ft deep water and ruined their robes .Later they asked the Rabbi ,if his walking stick is original since the day

In a religious seminar in Jerusalem recently , a Rabbi walked away over surface of muddy water crossing 16 ft streams.Behind him representatives of other religion fell in 4 ft deep water and ruined their robes .Later they asked the Rabbi ,if his walking stick is original since the days of Moses.Rabbi replied :" You did not see the stones in muddy water (being visitors) and I didn't realize that you were following me"

Dont forget to ask for proofs. Benz Zakar

At last you are making more sense, Benz. These posts are quite decipherable, and I thank you. As I mentioned to Dave, however, so long as God remains a subjective product of the human heart and mind, any religious claim to objective reality is highly questionable.

(1) You mention 60-Watt lightbulbs in connection to neutrinos and their supposed mass. This does not define mass, it defines watts of electricity to make the bulb filament bright to X-candles. Intensity and mass are not the same thing, and neutrinos have not been detected in actuality (as of my knowledge).

(2) I was very intrigued by your language reference, as I have experienced (been exposed in a situation which cannot be easily brushed aside by empiricism) to what I will term the "Mother of Languages." Science has recently determined that there is a base wiring in the human brain specific to language, and that the particular language a child is taught has nothing to do with the nature of language itself. More research is ongoing on the possible hardwiring of this Mother of Languages, thus will agree you may be on to something in this respect.

(3) I am not familiar with estimated world population of 2,000 or even 6,000 years ago. I do know that the Indus Valley culture has been reliably dated to greater than 10,000 years. Chinese culture may be older, and Egyptian culture is contemporary. While there is evidence of a flood from a number of cultures, it must be placed prior to 12,000 years ago.

(4) I am interested in the "blood" reference because the Bible equates blood with "life." I do not understand your reference on the God-link in this respect.

(5) I have no trouble speaking with God. I do have quite a bit of trouble hearing His answers.

(6) Recycling of elements i

Continued...

(6) Recycling of elements is the nature of nature (creation). There is nothing new in this concept.

And while I enjoyed the Rabbi parable, parables are not "proof." Thank you again for your efforts! §:o)

Thank you for asking Joy Busey ( despite my poor editing skill ) : Rome was not built in a day .So you have to learn and seperate:

1. neutrinos ,filament, count kinds of lights , raw materials for light , The God's light ,light from sun ,moon,stars ,candle light , fire worshippers' light - mass is mass and intensity is intensity.Why waste time and go into cloning for publicity, swindling and wealth .Why not find The God ?

2.Why go for population 10,000 years ago .If in 1930 population was 2 billion ,how much was 2000 years ago .At zero population , if entry of Adam took place ,was it adam or atom ? Was it based upon evolution via monkey ,reptile or The communicating GOD recreated as He claims.

3.Blood and life makes sense.In the Book of Solution I have retrieved -The God said :I created Adam and Jesus (without father) using the same technology and I AM NEITHER A FATHER NOR A SON but the father the son and the holy ghost has been explained seperately.That is a research too.I have answers.

4.People dream,have nightmares,Psychic shops are busy making money communicating with the dead relatives.The Pentagon for 20 yrs had employed Jean Dixon and dozen psychics spending hundreds of million of dollars/yr to track down Moammar Qadhafi of Libya to keep the oil flowing.People are talking to voices above radiators ,or full moon ,devil worshipping .Moses and Muhammad had talked to God.I have explained how everyone can look into the book of solution directly and can communicate my way.

5.Significance of Blood An illiterate 40 year old Arab married with children was asleep on his holiday in a cave .He woke up when Gabriel told him ,he has been chosen to lead , told him to utter Man is made from blood...,touched him .He told his wife ,who sent him to her christian uncle - a priest.He confirmed via passage of old bible that he was expected .He in turn has now 1.1 billion followers of Islam

Continued..

6.I read Bible,Torah,Quran,Hinduism,Buddhism, Sikhism ,Egyptology ,and found God .In my post, I wrote Theology is like oldest to latest religion with fully loaded attachment from old to new.I wrote that religion is cluster of Garage where proud owners of even old cars following their forefathers displaying added latest attachments to old model and chanting tantric vibrations,synchronizing rhytm and hymn. In my research ,I have located model numbers with mfg mark,tag,manual and near exact number produced.If Milosevic .Khomeini or Pope Paul II displays increased old cars with new attachment they will be caught.Blood victims from US,Canada, Japan,Israel are having nightmares.I have found specific properties described or shown.Cloners and Gene modifiers are likely to be caught .When I realized more and more help from me is required to lead to the book of solution and teach basic method of usage ,I see the linkage of my work in 4 continents ,in major labs to commerical to religious location . I have peace and serenity and proof of hardships and synchronized denial ,custom made training and access.please do not make fun but examine it if my writings so far makes sense .Am I a by-product of knowledge and experience or byproduct of voices above radiators. Ben Zakar

"Am I a by-product of knowledge and experience or byproduct of voices above radiators.[?]"

Neither. I lost a couple of radiators many many years ago, and I think they are hiding between your ears :)

I will try to take your subjects as you present them, as this will help us to communicate.

(1) Light, in the science of physics, is radiation - Energy. Specifically, it is electromagnetic energy in a broad bandwidth. The quantum particle of light according to physics is the Photon, though electromagnetism also appears in other forms. Now, while I do believe that "The God" created this universe of Light, I still do not understand a mass for neutrinos or any cloning mechanism for light.

(2) Populations back to whatever "beginning" we care to name is imprecise. Relative fertility rates, death rates, longevity, and many other factors make it impossible to pinpoint a time when humans appeared on this planet. Genesis tells us about the establishment of universal parameters (energy, dimensions, matter, time, life and evolution) in 6 "days" in Chapter 1. In Chapter 2 we are told God specially created humans from the dust (evolution?) and gave them His Image. Such an intervention in evolution could take place at any time, given the right "dust" (humans evolved from apes in which to plant the "Image").

(3) I am still confused on your reference to special creation. Are you suggesting that this was accomplished through cloning technology of some kind?

Benz Zakar, Continued...

(4) There is good, rational psychology and there is silliness. Because psychology is not based in the same kind of empiricism as geology or anthropology, it is subject to abuse. This does not mean that the study of human psychology is without merit in our search for answers to who and what we are.

(5) and (6) I am still lost on the connection you make with blood, but here you seem to be saying that the revelation of God is an unfolding drama. I will also agree with you on this, if this is what you mean. God is to be "seen" and understood only so far as the human is psychologically equipped to do so. History teaches us that human individuals mature in stages, that history proceeds in stages, and that collective human understanding (culture) also comes in stages.

This makes today’s "True Religion" true only until the next "Truth" comes along. I perceive from your final paragraph that your faith is Islam. Are you a cleric (theologist), or have you reached your understanding through your own researches?

I know he shouldn’t have asked such a loaded question, TOM, but I think there’s a real problem of communication here, possibly not related to what would be an easy diagnosis on the receiving end. Since I don’t see any meanness, I see an attempt to communicate something he feels to be important across a large gulf. I’m going to reserve judgment awhile, okay?

Carry on as usual otherwise... §:o)

You're such an understanding and considerate lady - you're probably a radio receiver of multiple frequency bands and modulation techniques. Hopefully, you are not an ultrawide bandwidth transceiver ;)

I agree it is a mismatch between his transmitter and my receiver. He is using a code division technique far more superior and advanced than my frequency division stuff. Will try to catch up on the technology tree and get direct access to God's WWW.

Actually my bandwidth is so narrow as to almost qualify as quantum... though I do thank you for the compliment.

There is something in the apparently meaningless stringing of words/concepts/ideas that stands out. An underlying coherence that relates to what the first posts mentioned as "seeing" of language. This perception may be unfounded, but in view of a number of other factors, I’m not ready to assign it to psychosis.

(a) It seems apparent that Benz does not speak English, though he has access to many English words and concepts in English.

(b) It seems also apparent that there is intent to communicate concepts.

(c) I try hard not to make language a measure of relative intelligence. I speak 1 well, and the rest are hit and miss. I do not even attempt arabic.

(d) He is computer literate and has an ISP connection to this board, presumably on purpose.

(e) He posts EST rather than late-night, so is either on the continent or trying very hard to communicate with those who are.

Just unwilling to make rash assumptions based on language difficulties, that’s all. I recognize way too well how badly I’d do trying to post something important on a Japanese board armed only with a Japanese-English dictionary and a few Japanese catch-phrases (popular media).

I also reserve the right to be completely wrong... §:o)

Joy Busey & Tom H.T.

1.Thanks for your coment - " God created the Universe of Light".Let me add 70-80% EM radn-G-Ray,Xray,UV,Infra-red,radn,radio ,bands,radioWL,visible HEto LE lights.

Before universe,earth ,ocean -there were just clouds and particles.Where it came from? The first and the last of evolution is the God with HIS knowledge.He said: "He will never disclose secrets of creation" The God is the light of the heaven and earth ? The angels are the lights . Interpretation is an art .I have located passage where God attaches Himself with a specific light.Knowledge is virtue. There is no compulsion in religion.God says take it or leave it

2.God said I created Dinasaurs or other creation and erased it . When 500 oilfields of Kuwait were on fire and Saddam was attempting to setablaze oilfields in S Arabia and Gulf states.I thought Kaput.If it comes again -all wealth of the West and Japan will kaput with or without anybody's acknowledging God. Everybody should worry .It is not that secure world.

3.The God said, I told a major angel and a deputy that I have decided to create Adam, teach him complex things and let him have his children control of the ocean, earth ,...and let them help me give technical support until...Since them , a powerful Satan was born with inside knowledge of infrastructure of the God and said that I will neither let them give you help nor they will ever learn to perform " the specific worship you want them to do"

3.Blood from Adam. Then Eve. Then Brother & sister Then mixed marriages.Then expansion to 2 billion population in 1930 to 6 billion in 1999. Factors controlling blood quality came along with blending ,branching ,cross linking.I found specific blood properties mentioned .Only 20 years ago,I went to hear a major christian professor( father a priest) of medicine in U of T chanting tantric vibrations and praise

continued.. 3a....for a passage of Quran (worldwide)that because of this the west have now designed camera,can see pregnancy,can do test tubes baby,cross linking etc.He introduced a christian French Professor (a celebrity) converted to Islam When asked if he will convert."My father will kill me" and said "NO".

4.In another ,just before death Jacques Costeau of the oceans had found something in the books of God and became a believer......

5.Somehow,I was born and grew next door to Mother Thresas HQ and huge St James Palace Church and school where my brother went.I went to school and Univ in London .Later my mother (still alive) & brother moved to Toronto from Durga Road .She became a real Kali Ma for me and Durga Ma for others.Apparently,she did not approve when I married an anglosaxon white girl from Anglican German family named "Christel".

6.I am still succesfully married after 30 yrs and can relate some significance.

7.My Jewish employer in '97 ate non Kosher meat and I always ordered Kosher in trip to Italy for a week.He and other jews replied , "you are more Jew than us".

8.I blend with hindus,sikhs,christians,shias,sunnis,Ahmadis,AgaKhanis).My Lawyer - she is Bahais LLB (U.K) LLB (Ca)and I had a tour of Ahmadi Centre and Budhhist centre not long ago.

9.I believe in :" Eat the mangoes ,don't count the trees)"; "Gain knowledge though it be in China"; and "don't make religion ,a soccer match hooliganism "

10.I think I have studied Theologies from different angles ,studied seven languages ,degree in science and degree in engineering .

11.The God gave me highly orchestrated custom designed training under adverse condition in Asia,Europ,Africa and Americas.

Alas ! my english and all languages are poor and I am jack of many trades.However,One Research Lab had hired me for 5 yrs (one and only) over 36 Phds an

continued..

and 97 other scientists-engineers ,because they thought I was superiorly trained in specific materials similar to universe

12.When God says,"I can select individuals from streets and show him things from behind the curtain" with or without Phd or superiority in professorship in theology or anything,it is something .Who cares if you and others don't believe me.

Benz Zakar

Benz. Please understand me.

We are not here to judge the relative value of religions.

We are not here to listen to preachers preach.

Religions have made enemies of too many people. We seek something that makes sense, and will not threaten our lives for someone’s belief they cannot prove is true for others.

We are here to look at ways science and religion can help build a good world for all. If this is possible.

I have not laughed or made fun of you. I have tried to understand. Can you help me do that?

Interesting statement, Benz. But how did you make a determination as to what God may or may not have said. Did he say it you?

Just a quick one *

Indian thinker Acharya Bhaskara described :

"Science is but application of reason".

After reading through the threads about religion on these boards, it appears also like :

"Religion is but application of Reason",

Where `Reason' stands for "So-and-so said so", with, of course, So-and-so representing (respected respective) Supreme Authority(/ies).

But Humankind looks as being just pragmatic - concerned basically with self-preservation (and so its own continuation). Sometimes wonder whether Humankind is "a masterly victim" or a "victimised master".

BTW, does time move continuously or discretely. Hoping more sooner.

Namaste to all.

SeS

Probably not. However, without revealing their identity, I'll talk about two: one was an exceptional investment banker in the 1970's; another was part of a family business involving automobile dealerships.

Had they remained where they were, they'd have continued to make the millions that their co-workers and siblings have made.

However, both felt called by God to full-time ministry. One works with young Christians, primarily military members, in the Pacific NorthWest; the other works with college students on the East Coast.

(Chuckle) Well-established by non-Christian psychologists, no doubt. My wife, who holds a doctorate in Psychology, begs to differ with your report.

Does the name "Lazarus" ring a bell?

Furthermore, how in the world can you possible excuse the millions of claims of divine intervention? Even the Bible speaks of angels who protect those who call upon the Lord. Finally, there's my own case, where, long ago, God saved my own hide from serious harm when the motorcyle I was riding at about 70 mph slid on some gravel. The bike was destroyed when it hit a tree. I slid to a stop approximately 130 feet away, unharmed. The miracle? I took an instataneous 60 deg right turn, missing the trees, a barbed-wire fence, and landed in a nice, soft, grass-lined ditch. Believe it not, up to you. However, I have no choice, as I was there. For me to refuse to believe it would be to ignore reality.

You're absolutely correct. He does not cure sin. Instead, i

You're absolutely correct. He does not cure sin. Instead, in his grace, he forgives it, as his son paid the mandatory penalty for that sin - death.

If you discount all of creation itself, then yes. However, you must either live in a perfect vaccuum, void of any light, or simply refuse to either believe or accept God himself.

You got that one backwards. We do not create God. God created us.

Good one! Most non-Christians claim "there are no stones." As a Christian, however, I'm no longer a "visitor," so I see, know, and use the stones. However, trying to describe their location is often impossible to those who refuse to acknowledge their very existance.

The stones represent the Holy Spirit. Unfortnately, most people are quite willing to slug through the mud of sin. There's only one rinse cycle which removes this stain, the Living Water of Jesus Christ. As God is a Holy God, the entry of sin into his presence, including Heaven, is prohibited.

Therefore, all who refuse to accept the existance of the stones (Holy Spirit), the cleansing of their muddy garments (sin) through the Living Water (Christ), will never enter heaven.

The Japanese claim to have detected them this past year. Some are refuting it, however, due to their unwillingness to provide the detailed data that usually accompanies such claims.

The Bible mentions "one language" that was confused, by God, after mankind attempted to build a tower to God in Babylon. At that time, mankind was scattered around the globe. The flood happened after the first diaspora.

As you can see, I'm up at all hours of the day and night, as well, so time of posting isn't always an accurate means of identifying longitude.

Discretely. Also, the movement of matter produces gravity waves, which are nothing more than macroscopic statistical summaries of quantum potentials, as are all EM wave phenomena.

Then again, what do I know? I'm just a Christian, right, Joy?

"Obviously" I know nothing of scientific method, empiracle evidencial procedure, etc., ad nauseum...

TIME ...may vibrate between waves and discreteness as do LIGHT

Dave Resnick - Saturday, 07/03/99, 2:42:22am (#4148 of 4148)

BTW, does time move continuously or discretely

Dave, Now that you have an answer, will you please give the exact reference for this conclusion in Scientific literature? Thank you.

In case my post prompted your next lines, let me once and for all record that my posts have no implicit side- contents; just brevity is being attempted.

{Next little later.]

Namaste to all.

SeS

Joy Busey and Benz Zakar,

Now that I know both of you are intellectually endowed, I need your opinion of three (3) very important concepts related to my research.

Numero Uno: Free Universal Communications (don't try to give it an acronym - it doesn't sound civil). We've been paying something like $19.99 per month for home internet usage and $19.95 for a basic mobile phone service subscription. And we get charged to the tune of 10-20 cents per minute for mobile calls. I know besides this wonderful invention of the internet and a world wide web depository of info and garbage, there exists already a universal database containing more info and garbage. And I think we can tap into it - from anywhere in the universe without building a mobile communications infrastructure. We as sentient beings are very advanced communication transmitters, storage devices, data processors, and receivers. I wish to have your opinions on how we can exploit our communicative potential (or hidden, latent abilities).

Numero Duo: Zero Point Energy (ZPE). Will talk about this later.

Numero Tre: Anti-Gravity and Quantum Gravity, if they exist at all.

Thanks.

So, your wife charges $150 an hour or more to tell schitzophrenics that the voices in their head are real? I hope she has good malpractice insurance.

"Does the name "Lazarus" ring a bell?"

Yes it does. Lazarus died at about the same time (and for much the same reason) as Jesus. There is only one human mentioned in the Bible who did not die.

Because you enjoyed a Miraculous aversion of death in time, you believe you will not die?

You know, Dave, I don’t know where you came to any conclusions about what my beliefs may or may not be. I don’t recall mentioning them to you, though I have presented them in this forum previously. Your statement above is patronizing in the extreme from someone who presumes to know more than he actually does know.

The empirical absurdity of claiming that existence itself "proves" the existence of God will get nowhere in the realm of logic. This is a circular argument with no objective validity. This is your subjective belief, which has specific value to your life. This is a good thing. This does not mean that your subjective belief can or should be projected outside yourself, as belief is not a rock that can be used to stone people you presume to judge.

I am confused. Did you offer this meaningless observation to refute my assertion that to my knowledge neutrinos have not been detected? Can you provide the detailed data that would establish your refutation? I don’t understand why you would offer undemonstrated scientific claims to counter a post I made to Benz trying to figure out what he was talking about concerning neutrinos. Is there some kind of religious significance to neutrinos that I haven’t heard about?

"The Bible mentions "one language" that was confused, by God, after mankind attempted to build a tower to God in Babylon. At that time, mankind was scattered around the globe. The flood happened after the first diaspora."

I do not recall connecting the references to base language to the flood at any time in any post, nor do I understand how this relates to possible dating of the occurrance of a universal flood recorded in ancient civilizations. Am I as obscure as Benz, or are you just trying to make it seem so?

This is intriguing, TOM. Because you also included gravity/anti-gravity in this post (which I really like to speculate about), I’d like to hear more about how you are figuring the separate universal system. Is this Akashic records (the impression of events on a medium of some sort)?

Cliff, everything I quoted sofar including what you wrote below is given in the book of solutions (religions)universally believed to be the words of the God. Even my KaliMa (for me) Durga Ma for others taunted me for my friendly association with"Ram" in 1998 and in 1993 when they were destroying Ayodhya mosque as a place of birth of Ram as if everything is inter - related.

Cliff Beall - Friday, 07/02/99, 11:14:47pm (#4142 of 4150) "benz zakar: When God says,"I can select individuals from streets and show him things from behind the curtain" with or without Phd or superiority in professorship in theology or anything,it is something .Who cares if you and others don't believe me. Interesting statement, Benz. But how did you make a determination as to what God may or may not have said. Did he say it you?" Yes,yes... In fact ,The Nobel Laureates should give Nobel Prize to a Pakistani Poet Named Allama Iqbal ."He wrote - make yourself so high ,knowledgeable that the God asks you directly -what do you want - take your first step.." and I just heard his beautiful song by little Kids in the TV -Radio worth Nobel Prize ,"God show us straight path ,give us knowledge ,help us love my country,make our job for the welfare of "havenots" "...so rich , so true.,so desirable for all nations' chicks-kids .In fact,I have located a passage ,where he might have copied from the Words of God and translated it in Urdu (one of seven languages I learned at age 20) from the passage which is believed to be the Words of the God - " make your self high and knowledgebable "...Give a Nobel prize for understanding God ,creating Pakistan (for them) to Allama specially for (translated two songs) mentioned.

Joy Busey, you asked my real name.My surname is very rarely used as surname.Now in America presumably certain known immigration consultant is flooding with illegal refugees with my surname

What did they do with the millions they already had?

What is your evidence that the "mandatory penalty" for sin is death?

How do you know? What evidence can you present?

On what basis do you think you will? Actually, on what basis do you contend that Heaven even exists, much less that it will be your home after you die?

There is absolutely no physical evidence that a worldwide flood occurred at all although evidence of localized flooding does exist. With no evidence that a worldwide flood actually occurred, how can you be so positive about "when" it occurred?

How do you know time moves at all?

Interesting isn't it that there are so many Ph.D.'s floating around on this message board--even people who can't put two words together effectively. Not saying it isn't so, you understand--just have to wonder about it from time to time, though.

Joy, I do not agree that Dave's comment was "patronizing." I do agree that he presumes to know more than he actually does know.

I must say that this is one of the strongest logical arguments I have ever read, Joy. The key point here is that Dave's subjective belief is a good thing in that it has value to his life. But the rest is true also. (I suspect that Dave may consider my words patronizing, but to me they is merely acceptance of the truth.)

Benz, I do not know of a religious text (Bible, Quran, Bhagavad Gita etc.) that is "universally" believed to be the words of God. Could you please be more specific?

Dear Cliff & joy , thanks for reasoning . Please remind others CNN caption above :"there has been a schism between faith and what scientists consider fact. Finding a comfortable fit between religious beliefs and scientific facts and theories has become a perplexing puzzle for today's society"

Cliff, you wrote ..

Cliff Beall - Saturday, 07/03/99, 4:20:33pm (#4160 of 4160) "Benz, I do not know of a religious text (Bible, Quran, Bhagavad Gita etc.) that is "universally" believed to be the words of God. Could you please be more specific?"

Benz:

Ask the returned Jesus(es)direct.His holiness Mirza Taher Ahmad (grandson of Jesus and # 4 Jesus).His followers 7-10 million (currently) think they have bought the right Jesus .Jesus #4 (grandson ) just uttered in Radio TV web 100% my letter and material which shaped the World since 1973 for which Jean Dixon ,psychics and psychic shopkeepers ......,Pope,Archbishops,Ayotollahs ,pundits , and my kali Ma are taking the spin ..He may have swindled a Billionaire oil sheik or own a rich $b gift given computer co and housing states from some who is giving free money distributing as potential Jesus in history Remember, Rev Jim Brown said before going to Jail ,"how dare you send me to jail ,last year I gave millions of dollars charity or Rev ..'s said my father has a mistress and gave her $63m from his Church of God ..." I wrote HH Taher Ahmad about a month ago :" you are caught".He never replied .I wrote that Jean Dixon,psychics of past and present ,you and money distributors are taking spin .Let's invite all of them in TV live discussions and ask them to bring along their Revs,pundits,rabbis,ayotollahs,high priced lawyers,acharyas,yogacrooks ,stocks bonds, organ sales distribution mngrs,oilchiefs and distributors and ethnic cleansing financiers. ...End this method of instant learning and potential evidence erasing ...murders....you know what I mean?

Benz Zakar

email : yaszaka

I know for a fact I’ve never claimed a Ph.D. or any other sheepskin in any field, Cliff. Perhaps you have confused me with someone else.

Cliff, cont...

What do you suppose this statement means, and to whom do you think it was aimed? The second post was submitted less than 20 minutes after the first, with a post in between also aimed at me. I have no reason at all not to presume the tone of these posts was intentional, thus patronizing.

I could have used a better word than "patronizing," but I’m mildly insulted rather than emotionally distraught. Dave obviously has not read enough of this board to know anything about my personal beliefs and faith, nor has he ever asked me about my beliefs or faith. He thus has no basis from which to judge me "anti-Christian" (boy am I glad he’s not Torquemada!).

I never said he knew nothing of empirical proceedure, I pointed out how he had deviated from empirical proceedure in his assertions of Absolute Truth for things which are merely subjective.

Perhaps if I had not been called a "liar" earlier on the Politics of Health Care board (for supposedly posting a ‘leftist’ diatribe against the military, for which no link was provided because this assertion is totally false), I wouldn’t have been sensitive to Dave’s misconceptions at all.

Joy, isn't today some sort of a special day for you folk in the US, well I hope you enjoy it.

I must admit that I read this differently Joy, I thought Dave, whose post I enjoyed enormeously, was asking you to share in the sort of mild epithets that are sometimes thrown at Christians, well certainly at scientific boobies like me. At least I deserve them, you and Dave obviously have quite a bit of scientific knowledge. Just as well, I depend upon you to interpret it for me, put it into language I can follow. That is definitely the big minus of these posts, the difficulty in determining in what tone a post is addressed. I was accused on this board a couple of weeks ago of something that I didn't feel I was guilty of. I still think we should persevere.

On the subject of 'objective' and subjective. I find this difficult to talk about with non Christians, because, as you know, I refuse to accept that I haven't used my reason in arriving at my conclusions. But when I read today .. "In the past, God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets in many and various ways, but in these last days, He has spoken to us through His Son .. Jesus Christ." I thought of your recent discussion. I can't quite refer to Jesus as subjective. I know there are some who deny that He ever existed, but not I think, any who have made some investigation. And as it is the Christian claim that Christ is God, then one can say that 'objectively' studying His Words is a way of hearing what God wishes to communicate with His Creation.

Wally has just reminded me that it's Independence Day over there, [well nearly] you'd think I could remember that much wouldn't you?

You (?): "BTW, does time move continuously or discretely?"

Me: "Discretely. Also, the movement of matter produces gravity waves, which are nothing more than macroscopic statistical summaries of quantum potentials, as are all EM wave phenomena.

Is the California Institute of Technology of sufficient caliber to be called "Scientific Literature?"

http://compbio.caltech.edu/~sjs/tew.html

This isn't just theory. UCSD is working on practical applications:

http://www-wilson.ucsd.edu/research/QC/QC_SLIDE/toc.html

If you require further references, please let me know.

DR

I did a search for "Mirza Taher Ahmad" and came up empty. I take it this Mirza Taher Ahmad claims to be the returned Jesus and has a following of 7 to 10 million. Could you tell me what you mean by "taking the spin?

Benz, forgive my lack of understanding, but is "HH Taher Ahmad" the same person as "Mirza Taher Ahmad"?

I think I am beginning to surmise that you are railing against what you consider false religion rather than promoting a religion of your own. Am I correct in this understanding, Benz?

Okay, Joy, I will admit that I was reflecting on the responses I got a few days ago from my attempt at a gentle dig at E.C.'s "appendage." Actually, I guess the main reason I made the above observation was Thom horning in with his "Despite my doctorate…" post. I must admit that his "proclaiming" that he had a Ph.D. too in such an obvious manner did amuse me.

As for you, I admit that you are correct that you have never specifically stated your "credentials." Indeed you have refused to state them. However, you have more than once strongly hinted that you have "credentials." The most recent hint was your comment to E.C.: "Oh, let's face it. We're salted goat-butter. Hard on the arteries, harder on the thinking process, and able to toss it around..." in response to his "clarification" about the "appendage." But it was certainly not the only instance.

If you ask me to do so, I think I can dig up several other examples of what I consider to be strong hints so there is no need for you to play the innocent. Nevertheless, in case you are unaware of it, you are, in my opinion, the most interesting person on this board, and the one that I admire and respect the most.

(And, no, that is not a contradiction. I do not demand perfect consistency in the people I choose to admire. If I did, I would be unable to admire anyone--certainly not someone like you--and I most certainly do admire you.)

Point well made. Now that you mention it, I do remember. Funny isn't it. Here you are, one of the resident Christians on this board, but you made a scientific sounding statement or two and Dave thinks you must be an "anti-Christian."

(sigh). No, Joy, she does not. Are you a licensed, practicing psychologist? If you're not you're hardly qualified to comment on my wife's outstanding rates of success, well above National averages, due primarily to her relationship with God through Jesus Christ, His Son, and the love which flows from that relationship into her therapy.

It's agape love, by the way, not eros or filio. If you not sure of the difference, hit your biblical dictionaries!

...and rose at Jesus' command, thereby providing a proof that Cliff's claim of "God never has saved anybody from death since before the Flood" to be false.

Wrong again! Two: Melchizadek and Jesus.

Where in the world are you inventing, er, "getting" your assertions? My experience had nothing to do with avoiding death forever; it had everything to do with refuting Cliff's claim that God had not saved anyone from death since before the flood.

He saved me, and millions of others from death through direct divine intervention.

I'm well-versed in physics, including collisions, rotational kinematics and dynamics. I returned to the site of the accident and took measurements. Very careful measurements. I would have had to sustain a 37-G to 51-G impact on the seat of my pants without injury to wind up where I did. That's approximately 7,500 pounds of weight on the motorcyle seat, enough to break it several times over, not to mention my derrier.

In other words, Joy, to speak in terms you (supposedly) understand, given the input conditions into the system, and the resulting output condition, what ha

Perhaps from the same vaccuum where you've been manufacturing your own allusions.

I don't like it from you, either.

How in the world might you come to such conclusion? Insight? Logical deduction?

Actually, it's all of creation that bears testimony to God's existance, not all of existence that proves His existance. The latter is indeed a logical absurdity. The former, however, is not. If God does exist and did create the world, then the creation would indeed bear witness to the creator, as is the case here. There is no circular reasoning, here.

If you cannot keep the finer points straight, you'll argue yourself into oblivion.

I find debating with you to be akin to scooping honey with a fork, as you often change the wording of others' posts, thereby changing the meaning, falsely alluding to them axioms they simply did not utter, and altogether avoiding having to respond in a direct manner. Instead, through your allusions, you attack them on the basis of beliefs they've never held, as you've attempted to do here.

Here's another example: "This does not mean that your subjective belief can or should be projected outside yourself, as belief is not a rock that can be used to stone people you presume to judge."

Here you allude not only that I'm judging other people, but that I'd stone them for their beliefs, as well.

Neither is true. Instead, I follow Christ's example: "Ye who is without sin cast the first stone." And to the woman, "go and sin no more."

I hear you, Rosemary, and agree. As I told Cliff, I’d been flat-out called a "liar" on another board earlier, and had to bite my tongue hard when nicely asking this person what in the world he was talking about, since the military had never come up in any of the 5 or 6 posts I’d ever made to that board. There was no reply, and I guess I got stewed because this person posts like an HMO lobbyist, using these nasty tactics. So I was oversensitive when I saw Dave’s posts, which I took to insinuate that he’d judged me "anti-Christian" without knowing anything about my beliefs.

If so, Dave, I apologize.

As a Christian, and someone who has experienced a Miracle which is now public record legally AS a miracle, it’s hard for me to admit that faith is subjective as well. The Miracle is real, but my beliefs and/or testimony (if I had been asked, but I wasn’t) about who, how and why are for all empirical purposes "inadmissible." The baseline assumption is my own perception and my own subjective experience.

Faith is within ourselves. We have no power to put it into someone else, but we do often fall prey to the presumption that what is real to our subjective psychology is real for everyone. On an important level of reality, that may be true. We can’t "prove" it empirically, and to impose it on others by force of any kind violates their free will. That nasty pride again...

You do a great job of following the babble here, and I’ve never known you to make presumptions on other people’s beliefs or make any rash judgments. You have certainly passed some great strength along to me when I’ve needed it! You’re fine as you are! §:o)

Come on Dave. Don't you know anything about the Bible? Surely you are aware that both Melchizadek and Jesus died. The individual to whom I assume Joy referred was Enoch. According to Genesis, Enoch did not die. See Gen 5:24.

I do not believe that was my claim, Dave. I believe it is something Joy said. And according to the Bible, I believe she is correct. (I personally do not believe any human has ever escaped death. But according to the Bible, Enoch did.)

I don't think you can demonstrate that. Other "miraculous" events such as you describe occur all the time to any number of people. Nothing supernatural about them. Just accidents of nature. Nothing more than a roll of the dice.

No. I offered a meaningful report of factual events that made CNN headlines for more than a full week, not to refute your assertion, but to increase your knowledge, obviously faulty on this point.

I never offer undemonstrated scientific claims. Don't you ever watch the news, Joy? Every physical scientist in the world knows about Japan's findings.

That you do not casts serious doubt on your "credentials" that others have hastily alluded to you. And you question my credentials, that I know less than I presume? Gee, whiz, Joy! Start reading the paper!

As Benz appears to be using translation software, you are not as obscure as he. However, I often wonder about your amazing ability to obfuscate the issue with statements such as "Is there some kind of religious significance to neutrinos..."

Oops. Seems I was composing the above post to Rosemary while you were busy composing to me. Here you accuse me of doing exactly what I accused you of doing... presuming to know more than you (or I) really know. About each other, that is.

I hereby apologize for apologizing.

<sigh>

Very perceptive, Cliff... I think you’re on to something, but I’ll have to get back with both of you later on that. Preferrably AFTER Mr. Resnik has learned some manners. §:o)

Another example of giving up money to serve God, Dave?

One left his interests in the company with his relatives. The other, who'd netted about $400,000 a year for three years, saving most of it, gave some of it away, and used the rest to establish a trust fund that would provide for his basic needs as he entered full-time ministry.

You ask for evidence, yet have you not looked around? Have you not heard the words and testamony of those who know God, whose sins are forgiven, their lives changed for all eternity?

You ask for evidence, despite having seen, and discarded, a plethora of evidence already!

Here's some notes on "evidence:" John 14:11; Acts 11:23; 2 Thess 2:11.

God is alive and well. However, as creator, he's running the show, not you. He wants you to open your hearts to his love, and will then reveal himself, in myriads of ways, spiritual, experiential, and scientific.

Putting the cart before the horse is what those who think they know better than God Almighty tend to do.

The gospel itself is a testamony: Math 24:14.

However, Romans 1:20 sums it up well: "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

God --> Word of God --> Creation --> Knowledge --> Understanding --> Faith --> Repentance --> Forgiveness --> Restoration --> LIFE!

On what basis do you believe otherwise?

I do not believe otherwise. I have never said that I believe otherwise. Actually, I do not know. Neither do you. Neither of us can know because there is no actual evidence on which to make the determination.

The difference between you and me is that I admit that I do not know and can not know, and you insist you know that which you do not know.

Actually there are other differences. For one, I try to show a reasonable amount of respect for the opinions and beliefs of other people. You apparently do not.

Evidence physical, biological, anthropoligical, and otherwise, that a worldwide flood did, in fact, occur:

http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/14flod01.htm

http://www.indirect.com/www/wbrown/onlinebook/toc.html

Are you saying you're wondering about it in a discrete manner? Just kidding...

:)

Not at all, Cliff. I'm hardly what most would consider as "snooty." The only thing that really gets my goat is when people accuse and denounce me of doing the same things of which they themselves are blantantly guilty.

Another peeve is when others twist people's words and take them out of context, especially in a malicious manner.

I thank you as you do not do this.

You'd have been justified had you read my words, instead, wherein you would have found amplification for the statement, namely, that since all of creation bears witness to its creator, only those who live as if in a vaccuum can "honestly" refute it.

As patronizing means "to adopt an air of condescension toward : treat haughtily or coolly," it's you who take the cake on this one, Joy. All of my "patronizing" remarks have been in direct response to your own.

Cliff, you asked ,"Benz ,Can you back up verses of God and means of communication".I replied , Allama Iqbal should receive Nobel prize now for writing:" Make yourself so high and knowledgeable that the God asks you directly what do you want " Then I wrote I had seen a passage which the Allama may have had translated in urdu. I had demonstrated that I had located research material in two locations.Then you had asked .If voice above radiator or the God talked to you directly.I said,yes,yes,yes.. and had given lead ..a passage "I will pickup persons from streets...".What kind of researchers are you.This aspect was considered by Nobel Prize authorities .Allama is a muslim and believer in Quran.The Nobel Prize peoples' prejudice forced them to ignore this and gave the prize instead to a Hindu named Rabindranath Tagore for the same reason that the UN-Clinton-Nato gave independence to all the provinces of yugoslavia except Bosnia and Kosovo(98% Albanian muslims) or Kashmir (96% muslims in 1947).This caused ethnic cleansing for nothing. Later Tagore's grand daughter Sharmila married a Muslim Nawab (Mahaharaja) Pataudi and Clinton -TBlair -Nato rushed to help Kosovars muslims after I made fuss in 10 Downing St.Message Board. For these,I went out to Africa,Asia,Europe ,America ,worked ,sweat .You guys just dont want to work or make research.

Click www.Ahmadiyya.com .All their staff -refer themselves as Masih (Jesus) , Masih helper ,Masih Manager. Hope this will meet your requirements ,if not contact me direct [email protected]

Benz Zakar

As I told Cliff, I claim no title, but Professional Fool. I wear a number of hats. One of those hats lets me deal directly with at-risk and adjudicated teenagers and their families. I’ve also worked at a facility for recovering schizophrenics, and I know what happens when mental illness is encouraged, misdiagnosed and/or mishandled. I don’t guess there’s malpractice insurance for exorcisms, though.

If she’s doing counseling rather than exorcisms, she is performing as a spiritual counselor if she’s doing it with the specific intent of leading her patients to the Christian faith. I would therefore have to presume she is not working with patients who have no legal choice in their treatment, as such influence would violate a number of moral, ethical and legal precedents.

Cliff is right. I was speaking of Enoch, a very interesting subject. Lazarus, poor guy, got to die twice. I think you have changed the definition of death.

Why is my knowledge faulty on this matter? You are the one who said the data hadn’t yet been submitted or reviewed. I can say I’ve got "proof" of Bigfoot and get press coverage too. That doesn’t mean I can really prove it. I recall a few years back, the press proclaimed science had discovered yet another "clean, too-cheap-to-meter" energy source called Cold Fusion.

When I said (to Benz) that to my knowledge neutrinos had not been detected, I was speaking truth to my knowledge. You are free to believe everything to see on TV if you like, but that doesn’t prove neutrinos exist, or that they’ve been detected. If so, great. I worked on a terrific neutrino project once myself. But I was trying to elicit a decipherable answer to Benz’s knowledge of mass. I honestly have no idea why in the world this upset you so much, which is where my question about religious significance came in. I still don’t get it.

Actually, I am not sure this is always the case, Dave. I am not above taking unfair advantage when it is too inviting. But I do feel guilty about it. Does that make sense?

It's your belief that such things are merely subjective.

As one who knows God, I cannot disagree with you more. God is the epitome of "objective."

Do you think a loving God would only let a few people in on "the secret?"

No! Heaven forbid!

Therefore, everything in His creation, from the grandeur beauty of the countryside, to cutting-edge physics, to those who do know Him, bear witness to his existence and character.

What a beautful post, Rosemary! It's so full of love, something which I keep forgetting is the central ingredient of our faith.

Joy - Please forgive me if I've offended you. I meant no harm.

Actually, it was her un-Christian statements, not her scientific ones, to which I responded.

Her statments about logic are based upon faulty presupposition - see beginning of this post.

Actually, I am not sure this is always the case, Dave. I am not above taking unfair advantage when it is too inviting. But I do feel guilty about it. Does that make sense?

Isn't it interesting, Joy, how the love woven into a post like Rosemary's can have such an effect on two people who's hearts are opened to it?

While I'm glad of your miracle, I'm sorry it wasn't objectively verfiable, as was mine.

Then again, coming from the hard science background that I did, it took such a miracle that I could not scientifically refute, for me to truly believe that God isn't just some figment of my imagination.

Fortunately, I was riding with another individual, who called it "the freakiest thing he'd ever seen in his entire life."

Coming from this guy, that's pretty freaky!

Dave, I think you need to read on to the end and then respond. I think there is a potential love feast in there somewhere for you and Joy, but you keep passing one another by saying some of the most hateful things. Come on, it is getting late and I need my sleep. But I can't tear myself from this drama :-)

I thank you Dave. I have to cook for at least a dozen people tomorrow (this number is variable ‘X’), as well as chase toddlers and grandkids through the berry thickets and be a general in a bottle rocket war. I must hit the hay...

You’ll find Rosemary to be inspiring in a number of ways when you get to watch her mind work. I surely have.

No time for Miracles tonight, but I think you’re confusing testimony of witnesses with empirical evidence. A fine point of law (even when judging prophets and choosing canon) is judged, it is not an empirical evidence like an MRI, X-ray, arteriogram film, or... an autopsy report. I’ve got a number of witnesses, including 2 teams of physicians in 2 states plus a 72-year-old Irish priest. But I’m off to bed...

Peace. §:o)

Yes. Some doubt the terms "then he was no more, because God took him away" refers to physical ascencion into heaven.

However, the brain fart I experienced was real. It was Elijah (2 Kings 2:10) to which I was referring, not Melchizadek, king of Salem. Compare that account with Enoch's, in Genesis. Significant difference.

Therefore, both Elijah and Jesus arose bodily into heaven.

So thought the scientist I was, before God rolled the die...

Forty times the force of gravity is nothing to sneeze at. That I didn't feel any of it was miraculous enough. That I not only missed the tree which shredded my cycle, but missed the barbed-wire fence, as well, is beyond demonstrable physics. That I landed without incident on that particular trajectory is indeed miraculous.

However, it's my miracle, not yours. Most people simply smile and nod when I relate the story, the only such supernatural event in my life, other than my subesequent conversion to Christ. It was enough to convince me, a die-hard, left-brained, evolutionary-type scientist that God did, in fact, exist, and in a very tangible manner, when He chooses to do so.

That's all right, Joy. God's grace reigns. Just a mixup in the timing of the posts.

My apology remains extended.

And good night to my Okie friend Cliff... I think my nose is unbent enough for sleep. §:o)

Thank you.

So has the drama ended?

Yes, Cliff, she works part-time, for free, as part of a woman's ministry. I make more than enough money for the both of us.

Her "rates" are "rates of success," Cliff, not "rates of income."

You may very well not know, but I do. You cannot know God Almighty and "not know."

You can, however, not know him and claim as much, as do you.

As we've never seen one, we wouldn't know, Joy. I hope you're not still making false allusions...

Most of her patients are already in the Christian Faith. Salvation is instantaneous. Sanctification is a life-long process.

And yes, all her patients are there by choice.

There's a big difference between when a major and well-respected top-notch research lab makes the claim of nutrino discovery and Joy Busey claims she has proof of Bigfoot.

Yes, their data is questionable. However, my point was that you said you had no knowledge of such a discovery, a fact I found difficult to reconcile with other's accrediting you with a PhD (yes, I read your response to the contrary).

Really. Where, when, with whom, details, findings, summaries, etc. Come on, give. Cliff

Really. Where, when, with whom, details, findings, summaries, etc. Come on, give. Cliff - help me put Joy on the spot as much as you've been doing so with me...

Oh, there you are. Makes perfect sense.

Judging from her post immediately after yours, it looks like we finally caught up with one another's apologies.

No, he was an engineer (aerospace), and fully qualified to review, record, analyze, and present the empiracal evidence.

Neither of us were Christians at the time, but both agreed it was "the hand of God" as nothing other than a small tornado could have changed my trajectory in such a manner.

Joy's tired, I'm tired, and Cliff's tired.

Episode over?

Good night! And may God bless us, each and every one.

Yes, you are correct. And yours was not the only brain fart. Actually, I can not believe that I forgot about Elijah going up to heaven in a whirlwind. I remember as a child wondering about how he did it every time I saw a whirlwind, which in Western Oklahoma was fairly often.

Thus there was one who did not die after the flood also. I note, however, that you do not appear to continue to insist that Jesus did not die.

Also, I wondered how he kept from getting sand in his eyes. (If you have ever seen a whirlwind in Western Oklahoma, you will understand why I wondered that.)

Joy,

You folks sure keep late hours.

I have questions - I seek wisdom.

Is Science more rational than Religion? Both are products of the same human intuition. We must reach our conclusions about both through the same mental process.

Are Science and Religion equally 'rational'? Both lead to diverse conclusions by 'rational' beings. If we are 'intelligent', 'rational' beings how can this happen?

Is it possible that in both cases we are observing the mean of a normal distribution of thought processes that are randomly varying about some historical trend line?

TOM

Dave Resnick - Sunday, 07/04/99, 12:53:38am (#4177 of 4198) "Cliff Beall 7/3/99 4:15pm What is your evidence that the "mandatory penalty" for sin ? is ......"

Benz: " My evidence is biggest blackmailer , evidence searcher in intricate way beside being most merciful is ..The God : " I have prepared for you to enter into hell to dwell forever where your food will be sewer , fire or acids " if you do not observe ..mandatory minimum... ....

Here's some notes on "evidence:" John 14:11; Acts 11:23; 2 Thess 2:11. God is alive and well and runs the show...

Joy Busey - Sunday, 07/04/99, 1:45:44am (#4182 of 4198) "Dave Resnick 7/4/99 12:27am - When I said (to Benz) that to my knowledge neutrinos had not been detected, But I was trying to elicit a decipherable answer to Benz’s knowledge of mass..".... Joy, Let me add that on a single day ,I was shown technology and verses on neutrinos,mass or not ,technology of blues (ocean ,horizon) ,dreams with Einstein's time travel backed with a flight to do assembly work on photomultipliers ..all verifiable.. How many lead I have given ..either you are believer or not.There is no compulsion in religion or preference in food or fire or sewer .Ask the people of alternative lifestyles.. Who runs the show? Benz Zakar

Depends entirely on the nature of Time, TOM. I have yet to take time to explore the sites Dave listed for CalTech and UCSD, but his back and forth with SeS is interesting in this respect. Theologically (in my orthodox-styled Presbyterianism, that is) the God of Abraham is the called the sovereign of history. The entire drama, including end-time prophesy, Isaiah’s "suffering servant," the sacrifice of Jesus, and the mystery of grace are all attached to the nature of Time as it relates to history.

This is a fly-by because I’m between potato salad and green beans, but these seemingly disparate subjects may all be related. Your previous question about gravity, my interest in topological geometrodynamics and its monopole-based 3-tiered timespace, and the question of the nature of Time. I promise to revisit this when my head clears! §:o)

Joy,

Thanks for the fly-by.

"topological geometrodynamics and its monopole-based 3-tiered timespace, and the question of the nature of Time"

Definitely potato salad.

later then

TOM

Re: the discretionary movement of time, production of "gravity waves." Easy Links (thanks for the sites, Dave) -

Field Vector Primer & associated theoretical goodies -

You know, Cliff, you’re the reason God made Oklahoma... The basic intelligence level is so much above the general population of the rest of America (from my observations in a number of other states, that is...)

You long ago accepted - or at least acquiesced - to my stated reasons for not supplying credentials, for which I thank you.

The "salted goat-butter" reference was indeed my humorous response to E.C.’s new moniker, since I was the one who had noted an entire series of his posts had been deleted for no discernable reason, so asked him to re-register with a "name" CNN would accept. I had to giggle when I saw the same initials I thought had been the problem, with new ones attached. When you called him on it and he came back with the "lowfat cottage cheese" humble pie, I laughed out loud.

The goat-butter was for the figurative ALL of us on this board, since the debate here is so far outside the usual banality of other boards that it struck me as hilarious.

(In Yoda's manner of speech): Die, he did. Rose, he did, as well. Ascended into heaven, he did!

The rest of those who've died have all "fallen asleep," but will be called when the trumpet sounds. Jesus, however, arose from the dead, then ascended into heaven.

Beats me. I wonder how Jesus defied gravity and walked on the water. I wonder how he raised Lazarus, who'd been dead for several days. His body was decaying and stunk! Then again, in the light of these other miracles, it's not difficult to fathom that God has enough capability to keep a little sand out of one's eyes.

Quite often, neither is rational. Even years after the Wrights flew, many highly-qualified experts in the field denounced their achievements as a hoax. Similar circumstances exist in the field of special relativity.

I'm fortunate, as all my relatives are special.

<giggle> Cliff, E.C., Rosemary and a few others have already heard me spew about this and then back off when asked for details like the ones you’ve asked for, Dave. Details are another of those "credential" issues I cannot (will not) address in this forum.

Because I’m way too lazy to backtrack in either my word processing log or this board’s log, I’ll give you the scant information (short version) which is the reason I’m so interested in exploring gravity, monopole field vectors and quantum tunneling, the nature of time, and yes, even neutrinos.

It was a shielding project in the ‘70s, GE sub to NASA. It wasted lots of money on growing carbon crystals (designed structure of both molecules and lattice), which resulted in some rather amazing negentropic effects. This induced negative entropy was theorized to be a consequence of tangentally deflected neutrinos, which would have led to the conclusion that neutrinos were the physical agent of entropy (Second Law). Coincidental to this project was a separate dive into the nature of gravity/anti-gravity based on a separate odd experience - a greater than 100lb stone struck by a too-deeply set plow in a cornfield, which floated about 4 feet above the earth.

I’ll get back with you later on this too, as I must now don my trusty gloves, helmet and goggles to do serious bottle rocket battle... §:o)

Assuming that all thought is rational, and that the variation is due solely to lack of complete knowledge, then that trend line, or locus, would be absolute truth, or at least close to it (error due to input error variations).

Are you referring to Matti's TGD page?

Oh, so you are!

I like butter made from goat's milk! Hard to find and very expensive, but it's so much healthier for you.

Granted, with respect. I know of a man who was born in a barn, grew up in an archaic village, spent the first couple years of his life with his family fleeing a maniacle dictator who would have killed him. He later returned, became a carpenter's apprentice, then a carpenter. When he was entering middle age, he began talking about a whole bunch of stuff that most of the local populace couldn't fathom. The killed him.

He had no degree, no formal schooling of any kind, no family, no hugely successful business, was an outcast in his own hometown, and despised by the leaders of his day.

Today, this man is known and loved by a full one-third of the world's population as Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Who needs "credentials?" The best credentials we'll ever carry are the ones we leave behind.

You may be interested in the following report on the Kamiokande event:

http://www.autodynamics.org/new99/Neutrino/SuperK.html

Very funny, Benz, I am not interested in a lecture. If you wish to discuss issues relating to science and religion of importance to you, I will listen and comment as I desire, but I have no intention of adopting your issues merely because you think I should. I have my own.

Science is more rational than Religion, of course. I will agree that both are products of the same human intuition, but I disagree that we reach our conclusions about both through the same mental process. Religion starts and ends with intuition--not necessarily our own intuition, but intuition nevertheless. There is nothing else. Science, in order to be science, must be tested. Something that is tested to determine its validity is more rational than something that can not be tested.

Scare tactics will not work with me, Benz. I have been scared by experts, and here I am talking about "Brother Pearcy." (That guy could make the hair on the back of my neck crawl when I was a kid.) But now, only evidence is meaningful to me. I see no evidence here, and instead find only the voicing of intuition.

Yes I did acquiesced--actually more than once. The first time you gave a broad hint, as I recall, I said, in essence, put up or shut up. Well, you didn't put up and you didn't shut up either. Actually, you still haven't shut up. I do get such a kick out of it these days. And by the way, the offer is still open. If you request it, I can provide some examples of what I am talking about.

If you say so...

Yeah, these would certainly be real problems. But to a kid like me, sand in the eyes would be a much more realistic problem. Getting one's feet wet didn't seem so bad, and the only dead people I ever saw were people in a casket in church, and they did't stink.

Well, I guess so if you accept the other miracles. The question is why you would do such a thing.

That’s more detail than you ever gave us. Why is Dave so special that you should give him all these details :-)

(And by the way, Joy, I know you haven't asked, but this is one of the hints I was talking about: since one typically does not work on this type of project, I would think, without some kind of "credentials." The part that puzzles me is that if your concern is the revealing of your true identity, the above discussion would seem to me to be at least as likey to reveal your identity as a simple admission of a Ph.D. in Physics at Georgia Tech. But, whatever :-)

Dave you seem to be aware of TGD and Matti Pitkänen independent of this board. We discovered it when Andrew D. Lewis started talking about manifolds and Betti numbers and such and told a story about "godifolds," a term he made up to avoid having to say: "special Lagrangian submanifold," but which he revealed upon being asked. With that as a weapon, I did a search, found some stuff and provided some links, one of which was the TGD site that Joy appears to have latched onto.

What do you know of this site that might be of interest to the group.

Cliff, I wish to apologise for saying "what kind of researchers are you guys... you dont'want to work ,research ".After realizing that a certain prophet made lots of people rich by his consultancy , one of the close friend asked him ..Please give me best advice that I can become rich and cherish ,He said ,don't utter anything undesirable.The friend ,asked him seconds time, "give me an advice I can treaure it forever,he said don't lose temper.." Finally ,he said ,I may not see you again, the best last advice I can take home for my kids and family and go to paradise..".He told him "keep your mouth shut and don't lose temper ".Sorry again. Benz Zakar

Great story, Benz. I loved it. Okay if I call you friend?

Cliff yes ,yes.... Thanks

...as does science. All proofs were developed to substantiate or rebuff an hypothesis, which is nothing more than an intuitive guess molded by observation.

It was my intuition that God did not exist. It was God's Holy Spirit that resulted in a journey that convinced me otherwise.

"But they continued to sin against Him, rebelling in the desert against the Most High. They willfully put God to the test by demanding the food they craved. They spoke against God, saying, "Can God spread a table in the desert?" When he struck the rock, water gushed out, and streams flowed abundantly. But can he also give us food? Can he supply meat for his people?" When the Lord heard them, he was very angry; his fire broke out against Jacob, and his wrath rose against Israel, for they did not believe in God or trust in his deliverance."

Here's the neat part:

"Yet he gave a command to the skies above and opened the doors of the heavens; he rained down manna for the people to eat, he gave them the grain of heaven. Men ate the bread of angels; he sent them all the food they could eat." - Psalm 78:17-25

However, if you want to test the things of God, Romans 12:2 is of value: "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is - his good, pleasing, and perfect will."

Had your science been of any value, you'd have known they went through an embalming process designed to stop decay long enough to pass muster for public viewing.

I'd rather have sand in my eyes than in my soul!

Having experienced a quantifiable, objective (with witness), physically-based miracle myself, involving forces that, given the boundary conditions for the incident, are physically impossible, I have no choice but to accept the concept of miracles in general.

<puff, pant> We won!!! The forces of freedom and democracy have prevailed for yet another year, slight singes, one minorly twisted ankle and a scraped knee the only serious casualties... §:o)

G-force won against the "Wolfies," as usual. I'm working on catching up, a little worse for wear and tear.

Dave, I think what you are doing is testing your intuition against your intuition. If your intuition matches your intuition, you call it a successful test. But I hope you are not trying to say that this is comparable to the scientific method?

One of the major problems with your method is that made up stories in the Bible are assumed to be true regardless of plausibility. Elijah being carried up to heaven in a whirlwind is an example. What is wrong with this story? Do you believe the stories of Stephen King? If not, why not?

If I told you my father was carried up to Heaven in a whirlwind and thus escaped death, would you believe it? Some people say that God doesn't do those kind of things anymore. I say there is no evidence he ever did.

I will insist that pointing to statements in a made up story is not evidence. If you would argue that the stories are not made up, the first thing you would need to do is establish the validity of the details to which you refer. I will grant, of course, that many of the stories in the Bible have a historical basis. It is quite likely, for example, that a man by the name of Elijah actually did exist in the time period specified by the Bible, and many of the exploits attributed to Elijah really did occur. However, it seems most unlikely to me that Elijah actually rode a whirlwind to Heaven. Why should I believe such a thing. First, there is no physical evidence that there even is such a place as Heaven. Second, there is no physical evidence that a whirlwind could reach to Heaven even it such a place as Heaven was established to exist. And finally, there is no evidence that Elijah was ever inside a whirlwind capable of lifting him. Anyway, I would point out that most intelligent people avoid whirlwinds because of the potential of getting sand in their eyes. My best understanding is that Elijah was a reasonably intelligent man and would therefore have avoided whirlwinds for that very reason.

Such humor.

Regarding TGD:

First, although I'm reluctant to admit this on a public board, I at least feel like I'm in the presence of such company who can understand, and a small number of such company, at that.

I've the interesting ability to visualize multidimentional geometries. In fact, I tested in the 99th perecentile on the Johnson O'Connor Research Foundation's tests for three-dimentional thinking, also known as spacial perceptive ability.

However, I stopped taking math at the Fourier transform level.

Regardless, I believe TGD to be yet another complex attempt at reconciling the differences between the originating postulates of special relativity with observed phenomena, such as for nutrinos.

More in line with Joy's interests, TGD supports nutrino theory, but with qualifications, namely, that classical long ranged Z^0 magnetic fields and their effect on solar core nutrino flux are required in light of the Homestake-Kamiokande discrepancy.

The fact of the matter is that of four qualified detectors, only Kamiokande's data reflected the predicted influx.

However, I disagree with Matti's statement that "rather general arguments force to conclude that neutrinos in ordinary condensed matter are superconducting" for one simple reason: superconductivity, by definition, is merely unimpeded electron flow. Nutrinos are not electrons.

Am I missing something here, or is Matti's pages nothing but horsehocky?

Over my head of course. I stopped taking math at the Calculus III level. But I shall be interested in Joy's comments.

Cheers.

I'm going to bed much earlier tonight, thanx. Horsehockey is in the eye of the beholder, to be judged as it is to be judged. Matti has neglected to define the "other" variable, which once introduced solves a lot of singularities.

The nature of the tunnel. Good night! §:o)

Been ingiting pyrodex in tissue wads again, have you?

If that were the case, then the two would match. However, they did not, as my intuition said one thing; the Holy Spirit said quite another.

Incorrect. Historical events in the Bible are assumed to be true, including miraculous events.

Having experienced a hard-science-proven miraculous event, I've no reason to doubt them.

For one reason, their author acknowledged they're merely fiction. The contextual evidence of Biblical stories would either have miraculous events along with outside-verifiable factual events, or non-qualifying fiction mixed with fact. Since the latter is simply not found in any similar-period writings, we scientifically conclude the former.

His ascention by the hand of God could very well have appeared that way to an observer.

Remember, whirlwinds include dust-devils, as well. Having lived in an area where they're prevalent, I've had the occasion to ride through them, walk through them, stand still and let them pass over/by/through me. They're relatively harmless.

"Heaven" is simply "where God is" as opposed to "Hell" - where God is not. The word "hell" is derived from the Hebrew "sheoul," meaning, literally, the garbage dump outside the city gates. God's inside the gates of heaven, not outside.

However, as heaven is a spiritual place of dwelling, what in the world made you ever believe anyone could find evidence of heaven here in a material world?

No sand. Just dry stalks of wheat.

Don't assume that it was the whirlwind that took him to heaven. The passage reads, "he went up to heaven in a whirlwind." It does NOT say it was the power of the whirlwind that took him then.

Jesus' ascension was devoid of whirlwinds. He ascended nonetheless.

How convenient.

Good night, all - switching to another board.

We "scientifically" conclude...what?!!!

Is Leszek around? What do you think of that Leszek?

What is that supposed to mean, Dave? I get the impression from Joy that she considers it most inconvenient. Have I missed something?

The text reads, "...we scientifically conclude the former."

Former, in the English language, refers to the first of two precepts in a dichotic idea presentation. Given the listed sentence, "the former" refers to "miraculous events along with outside-verifiable factual events," as is based upon the arguement which you so conveniently left absent from your post.

However, here it is, in it's entirety:

You: "Do you believe the stories of Stephen King? If not, why not?

Myself: "For one reason, their author acknowledged they're merely fiction. The contextual evidence of Biblical stories would either have miraculous events along with outside-verifiable factual events, or non-qualifying fiction mixed with fact. Since the latter is simply not found in any similar-period writings, we scientifically conclude the former.

Two things, Cliff:

First, must I actually read to you? Can you not take it upon yourself to spend the requisite care reading the material before responding? Or are you just tired (late night, and all...). If the latter (as opposed to the former), then might I suggest you get some shut-eye?

Second, I don't remember. It is late, isn't it?

Myself: How convenient.

Cliff: What is that supposed to mean, Dave? I get the impression from Joy that she considers it most inconvenient. Have I missed something?

Only a sense of humor.

It's a literary convention known as "facetiousness."

Good night, Cliff.

Very funny, Dave. You are a very funny guy, and I can appreciate good humor. But I guess I was hung up on your use of the word "scientific" in that context. In no way was that an appropriate use of the word "scientific."

My next question is: is this an honest mistake or do you purposely intend to mislead? In other words, do I need to explain the scientific method to you?

Dave Resnick - Monday, 07/05/99, 12:51:00am (#4229 of 4230) "Cliff Beall 7/4/99 11:49pm We "scientifically" conclude...what?!!! " Benz : "everything is verifiable.. as concluded by Cliff Beall analyzing my analysis..........with or without..password".Ask 2 billion with knowledge of urdu-hindi,bengali..to translate for you..'Khoodi ko kar blund itna kay her taqdeer say pahley ,khuda bund dey say poochay ba taa teri riza kiya hai.." (translation ..Make yourself so high and knowledgeable that before the question of luck and fate arise ,the God almighty asks you directly what do you want..." I learned this as my nursery rhyme .... Then ask a muslim theologian if he has located this verse ... or verse related to neutrinos... but all of them will tell you...they know ..I will pickup lay-persons from streets (with or without Phd, seniority in professorship in theology) ...and show him/her from behind the curtain whoever I chose.." Everything is verifiable....

Joy Busey - Sunday, 07/04/99, 1:45:44am (#4182 of 4198) "Dave Resnick 7/4/99 12:27am - When I said (to Benz) that to my knowledge neutrinos had not been detected, But I was trying to elicit a decipherable answer to Benz’s knowledge of mass..".... Joy, Let me add that on a single day ,I was shown technology and verses on neutrinos,mass or not ,technology of blues (ocean ,horizon) ,dreams with Einstein's time travel backed with a flight to do assembly work on photomultipliers ..all verifiable.. As a starter ask the two billion with urdu-hindi knowledge meaning of "Corn Flakes" if read as Quran Flaks(ey)- translation ...Quran from Heaven Tutankhamen... translation....tooth eyes (linked) peace... Dont forget to ask where Einstein may have translated from "his theory of relativity.". Benz Zakar

I made no such conclusion, Benz. Indeed I disagree. Only those things which can be physically tested in a scientific manner are verifiable.

However, it is possible for something that is unverifiable to be true. For example, one can not verify the existence nor the non-existence of God. (There is no proof either way.) But it is obvious that either God does exist or that God does not exist. One or the other must be true. Therefore it must be possible that something that is not verifiable can be true.

Great nursery rhyme. Unfortunately, there is no evidence that it is possible to do as the nursery rhyme suggests. How does one "make yourself so high and knowledgeable"? And "knowledgeable" in what? (Note: Benz that that is a question--not a conclusion!)

It is possible for a Muslim theologian to believe in error, Benz. Some things are scientifically verifiable. Some things are not. Many people believe many things which happen not to be scientifically verifiable. Believing things which are not verifiable is called faith. Religious people have faith. Joy has faith. Dave has faith. You have faith. You and they are religious. I do not have faith. I neither believe nor disbelieve. I am not religious. I am an agnostic. Cheers.

I have read the sites you listed, but haven’t yet accessed Little’s actual theoretical work. I have some outstanding reservations (unanswered but obvious questions) about the summary from CalTech, just like I have outstanding reservations about TGD. Both appear to ignore the necessary "other" variable (though the reverse wave theory hints at it). I’ve got no particular stake in neutrinos, since I personally am not convinced they are anything more than a theoretical short-cut.

"It is neither the point in space, nor the instant in time, at which something happens that has physical reality, but only the event itself." Albert Einstein

From what I can gather so far, the fundamental waves are how you are basing your statement that time moves discreetly? If you can explain further it would help. TGD postulates 3 separate timespaces through which the monopole (hedghog vectored thought particle) tunnels as its symmetry aligns to its medium. This is also a discretionary movement of time.

If time moves discreetly rather than like a wave, the "other" factor must be introduced. I don’t know why the theorists aren’t seeing this, as it’s right there in front of them the whole time. Whole time being, of course, the question of moment/anti-moment.

Cliff, sorry for my english paraphrasing mistakes again and poor editing .I will try to be careful..nexttime.

Religion grew from evolution of a man (or Adam & eve),their children...to 2 billion in 1930 to 6 billion in yr 2000.There were 129,000 prophets since the days of Noah flood.Hindus had prophets or Godesses ,Pyramid Pharoahs had a prophet, Jews ,Christians ,Buddhists,muslims had prophets.

What are the roles that science and religion should play in our world today ?

Religion.... It has now reduced to... IMF Dollar..euro,yen,riyal ,islamic banking , oil ownership ,UN ..ethnic cleansing...US-NATO power..

Saddam & others were stressing middleeast oil is ours .US wanted it back like in the days of Shah Iran,King Idris ,King of Iraq.. and placed ...illegal Sauds & other merchants ..as oil kings..

One school of thought decided to kill the muslims from oil states to Bosnia,Kosovo to Chechniya ... resulting in ethnic cleansing .,Other group simply insists ..."what belongs to US belongs to US, Europe and Japan..but oil belongs to UN ..because we have cars.." So came the Iraq bombing and 500 kuwait oilfields fires..

Religion says ....The last three books of Moses,Jesus and Muhammad are complete .Within the three, everything can be found what was given to 129,000 previous servers of the God .

Then there is God exists or not ? Who runs the show ? One million each gay parades of Toronto,Sanfransisco last week ...and worldwide with new chapters .. are coming up alongwith openly for- sale ..adverts ..5000 retinas forsale ,hands,legs,organs forsale , balkan kids porno forsale ..whatever you want....

The verses said ....if you are given proof and if you refuse to accept I will send you all to hell .. Your are more helly than a prostitute who may have had pornographic life with 10,000 men in lifetime (if she was misplaced there with no fault of her own))

CNN board is promoting ,Is there any fit which is a

I can talk about shielding and floating stones as freely as I can talk miracles and angels. I can talk about neutron-activated commuters or naked singularies and timeline diversions too, if I cared to. In general terms, these relate to theories in general circulation, or to personal experiences which cannot in and of themselves be supressed. The subjects reveal nothing, since the technical details are inaccessible - or, in proper terminology, do not exist. I personally enjoy the same status, as do any "credentials" I might care to list.

This is not a status I wish to challenge, as we still have some details to iron out in the matter of our son. It’s HIS identity that matters legally, not ours.

For all legal purposes I am a professional clown. That is all I am. I hang out on this board because I enjoy the good company (and occasional bad company). §:o)

We all know that the politics of power is corrupt. We also know that the politics of religion is easily corrupted. Human beings make their own choices because God gave them free will.

If God exists, he will judge human beings for the choices they make. It is wrong for human beings to judge the things God will judge. To force another human being to worship against their free will is wrong. It is a sin of disrespect against the human and against God.

Question - who are you angry with? Governments, science, or religion?

In a final degree examination hall , the rich family kid did not bother to look into questions sheets .He started to copy the girl next to him.He did not let her study .She wrote all 10 answers wrong .Five minutes before the end ,he glanced into questions and saw ,he could have answered 8 without even studies.He got up ,punched her and started to squeeze her neck to kill her.The professors and students rushed and asked ,what happened ."She made me copy everything wrong.."he said .

Now I have located ...dozens of faked data books,fake history ,faked materials,faked ID ..organs ..wealth.. ...against whom I am talking about .Not only I am victim(personally) ,millions of Americans ,Europeans,Japanese and the world are learning completely wrongthing enriching a few...Must you wake up at the end and start punching them and asking for refunds at point of no return ..or now..

Benz Zakar

If your point is that religion is powerful, then I agree. If your point is that since religion is powerful, it must be true, then I disagree. (I agree it may be true, but I refuse to believe it must be true.)

I completely disagree, Benz. Religion has nothing to do with any of the above. You mention ethnic cleansing, for example. What does ethnic cleansing have to do with religion? Nothing. Ethnic cleansing has to do with hate. What does US-NATO Power have to do with religion. Nothing. US-NATO Power has to do with military power--nothing else.

But are you surprised that US-NATO fought with the ethnic Albanians (Muslim) against the Serbs (Christian)? I am not. The Serbs were committing a great evil against the Albanians. It had to be opposed. It was right to oppose this great evil regardless who committed it. But opposing evil does not necessarily have to do with religion. For example, I opposed that evil and I am not religious. Religion was beside the point.

I see you don't like gays. I don't like them or dislike them. They are people. It is very hard for me to understand their sexual orientation, and I must admit a certain feeling of revulsion when I hear about two men who got married, but I think it is in the genes. I think it was the way they were created/evolved and I do not think they can be blamed for it.

Personally, I think that homosexual behavior should be regulated in a similar fashion as heterosexual behavior. Basically, what goes on behind closed doors and does not involve children should be ignored. Anyone running down the street stark naked should be arrested, however.

Again, Benz. Scare tactics will not affect me one iota. I do not believe your verses. I have no problem with you believing them. You can believe anything you darn well want to believe as far as I am concerned. But please don't expect me to be troubled with such as that.

I would think records for a "shielding project in the ‘70s, GE sub to NASA" would exist. I mean, how many people worked with you on the project. You have stated you were very close to a Nobel prize once having to do with the "identification of neutrinos as the agents of entropy" but that "someone else got it first"--which narrows the search and time-frame further.

I would think that with that information, anyone having access to NASA (or GE) records could narrow your identity to only a few people, some of which will probably already be dead, rather quickly if they so desired. On the other hand, there are literally thousands of Ph.D.s these days. Heck, nowadays, Ph.D.s are almost like a dime a dozen. Well, maybe not quite that, but, close. I mean I almost feel like a minority sometimes not having one :-)

I certainly have no problem with your desire to protect your son's legal identity.

Ah, yes, especially when the humor is enlivened with a bit of truth...

(chuckle). I wish you would, then I can determine if we're talking about the same scientific method. It doesn't appear as if we are.

However, it seems to me your stumbling block lies in classifying all miracles as "unproveable."

Would you believe it were a proveable miracle of an airliner angled at 60 degrees nose low and three-hundred knots encountered an impossible change in vector two-hundred feet off the ground and made a safe landing? What if it was videotaped?

My accident wasn't videotaped, but it was recorded by the skid marks left after passing through the gravel, the point of impact on the tree, and the difference in angles between that and my landing in the ditch.

Impossible? Yes. Provable that it did, in fact, happen? Yes.

The only thing NOT covered under the scientific method, Cliff, is my claim that it was the hand of God. It was most certainly of super-natural origen, at least of the natural world we know.

Could it have been a momentary burb in space-time? Certainly. I certainly cannot prove that it wasn't, and I'd have to recklessly toss out the scientific method to say that such could not have happened.

That a miracle occurred is established fact. What caused the miracle remains open for debate.

Personally, I believe it was indeed, God, who saved me from serious injury, if not death, on that warm Spring day.

And that, Cliff, is in strict adherence to the scientific method.

Cliff: By the way, thank you for your mature response to my "humor." It's refreshing and unusual on this board. Unfortunately, a heated debate is all too often the result.

Cheers!

It sounds like turbulent mixing in the atmosphere may have been the culprit in this incidence. Microbursts associated with strong convection have been the blamed for several airliner tragedies involving jumbo jets on final approach. The sudden and drastic change in trajectory is the common result of these localized downdrafts. Clear air turbulence in the form of strongly churning eddies have also feld many an aircraft on relatively calm days as well as residual turbulent vortices generated by the wingtips of jumbo jets which can last up to 15 minutes after the aircraft incursion.

Consider the following experiment (actual, repeatable, verifiable): Take a beam of light, say reflected from the sun, or from a flashlight, or from the coherent light of a laser (source does not matter).

Put a photomultiplier at the opposite end, and a bank of filters in between.

Initially, the output reads "constant." However, as you continually add filters, you reach a point where the "constant" appears more like static, then drops to "popcorn," and finally, an occasional pip. Put a solid between the source and the detector, and, of course, it stops altogether.

Is the light a particle? Certainly. However, in combination with other particles, it acts as a wave.

Rather, light itself is a wave which manifests itself as particles. The wave travels at the speed of light. However, the particles do not. Modern physics error #1. I'll explain in a moment.

Consider another established phenomena: Electron "orbits" within a an atom or molecule are not orbits at all, but statistical probability densities that the an electron will be present at any given moment in time. The electrons do not move (despite tenth-grade physics movies to the contrary). Rather, they appear here, then there, and so on, until the orbits appear fairly solid.

The wave function of light is simple. The quantum probability density function of atomic orbitals, however, is a bit trickier. Nevertheless, they both provide insight to the same phenomena: Energy presents itself as a particulate phenomena driven by quantum wave dynamics.

Both space (position / matter / energy) and time are complementary and interwoven. Just as space is non-continuous (quantum) in nature, so is time.

I ho

I hope you're with me so far. However, Wild Wild West is waiting, so... I'll pick this up later tonight!

Dave, what E.C. said and double it :-)

Dave

Hold on partner! You've made a little quantum leap of your own there. Just because matter/energy is quantum in nature does not mean that space-time (or timespace as Joy likes) is. I think you are misapplying the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle there. Nowhere in QM (or GR) do we argue the quantum nature of space (or spacetime). The HUP refers to the indeterminacy of collapsing a wave function down to a specific location at the same moment as knowing its momentum/energy. This is the result of the observer interacting with the observed, but is not a result of space being quantized. Essentially, in order to fix a quanta (be it electron, hadron or boson) spatially, we have to interact with it and thus disrupt its momentum (we have to stop it). I hope enjoyed your movie.

You keep changing the subject, Dave. The point of contention I have with you has nothing to do with what you consider a miracle. I really have no specific opinion on that except that "strange things" happen "all the time" (heck, they have TV shows discussing such things). I really am not very interested in that. The only point of contention I have with you, that is important to me at this time, is a very misleading statement you made. The statement was:

While I disagree with your premise, I am mainly concerned with the obvious misuse of the word "scientifically" in the above statement. It is very misleading and just plain wrong. Therefore, let me ask you once again. Did you purposefully intend to mislead, or is this an unintended error, and a subsequent attempt to avoid recanting the error by changing the subject (twice).

Oh yes, Dave, you asked me to describe the scientific method. My description of the scientific method is as follows:

The scientific method is founded upon direct observation and observation is the first step in applying the scientific method. The second step is to formulate a question concerning the observation. Attempts to answer the question with an educated guess may result in a hypothesis. Ideally, a hypothesis results in a prediction which can be tested. One important aspect of a proper hypothesis is that it must be rejectable. (There must be a way to test the possible answer to make it fail.) If the prediction of the hypothesis can be confirmed in an experiment, however, we have a scientific theory.

In addition, there is analysis and reporting of the results of the experiment. All of this is part of the scientific method, as well as additional testing to further confirm the theory. However...

Just one counter-example, if confirmed, kills the entire theory regardless of prior successful testing.

Did I miss anything, Dave?

As an aviator with 3,073 hours of flight time in several aircraft, including multi-engine jet, heavy, I'm well aware of atmospheric phenomena.

On that late Spring morning, the air was hot, humid, and still both immediately before and immediately after the accident.

However, given that a free-falling human reaches equillibrium with the acceleration of one gravity at approximately 140 knots, mach's drag-rise affect, your atmospheric disturbance would have had to involve winds in excess of 630 knots in order to cause the requisite 40-G acceleration to move me from my original vector towards the tree to the vector in which I landed in the ditch.

As I previously mentioned, the other rider, my witness, was an engineer. We do know our stuff.

No, it was no "turbulent mixing in the atmosphere," nor were anywhere near low-flying aircraft and their resultant wing-tip vortices.

Sorry! Try again.

I maintain that it was God.

CNN seems to have taken a liking to deleting my posts. I have absolutely no idea as to WHY, as I am being reasonably polite...

I was speaking of Bohr's principle of complementarity, not of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

Yes, we do. In fact, as early as the 1930's, Davisson and Germer established matter's particle and quantum behavior. Further experiments have only validated their findings.

This isn't exactly breaking news, people. Why must you contest extremely well-established physical phenomena?

Consider the case of non-relativistic quantum theory. We have an absolute time variable t used in the Schroedinger equation:

ith partial with respect to tau, upsilon = H, upsilon

This time is uniquely defined, independend of the physical situation and not measurable. It defines the quantum causality.

To measure time we have to use some self-adjoint operator T with

[Txsi,H] = i h

Because H is positive, this relation cannot be exact. So, exact time measurement is even not possible. This operator depends also on the concrete physical situation and is not predefined like the time itself or the coordinate measurement.

Next lesson, quantum gravity.

Dave, you keep bringing up your miracle. I think it is high time to acquaint you with a real miracle story. Chick below for a story that will take your breath away:

Impressive huh?

Next, you'll be bringing up the Time-Dependent Schrödinger Equation (TDSE), which is most applicable to simple quantum systems of small dimensionality.

However, to explore using quantum control in larger systems, such as polyatomic molecules and condensed phases we use the time-dependent Hartree (TDH) approximation of the TDSE. The TDH approximation greatly simplifies the implementation of control in the weak response regime for multi-dimensional systems.

The TDH approximation for the weak response case is sufficiently accurate to predict the laser fields that best drive a quantum system to a desired goal at a desired time, in systems containing more than one degree of freedom, by considering a two-dimensional quantum system and comparing the optimal fields obtained by solving the TDSE exactly to those obtained using the TDH approximation.

Still with me?

Joy - Here's something I know you'll thoroughly enjoy. It's entitled "Unified Reality Theory - The Evolution of Existence Into Experience," is quite well-based in modern physics, and is several hundred pages long.

http://www.execpc.com/~skaufman/book.html

BTW - Joy - Could your negative entropic measurements in your crystalline lattice experiment have been due to phase-adverse conditions during portions of the imaginary cycle?

In other words, did you calibrate, to quote from electrical engineering, your capacitance and inductance phase effects?

Quantum Gravity: Just as the presence of the nucleus' energy fields define the probability densities occupied by electrons in their orbitals, so the presence of matter's gravitational field defines the probability density gradient occupied by the energy lattice structure presentation we call "matter."

In other words, gravity works by making it more probable that quantum motion is likely to result in a reappearence closer to the mass, along the field line, than away from it, hence an apparent acceleration.

Other things affect this probability function. One involves the quantum effects of nearby matter. At each quantum junction in time, the states of each energy state presentation (matter) is transferred to the adjoining "particle" of matter. The effect can be static, such a swing hanging on a chain, or dynamic, such a bat hitting a ball. Both involve accelerating the adjoing matter by imparting a state that makes is more probably the matter will present itself in a further direction. If the imparted states result in large enough probability gradients to cause the particles to present themselves sufficiently distant from their adjoining particles at the next quantum moment in time, the matter flies apart.

Electrons take relatively little changes in state to fly apart. Nuclei take more, neutrons and protons even more, and quarks even more.

Magnetism is yet another form of energy presentation, albeit in chemical form due to misalignment of subatomic magetic dipole moments due to crystalline structure contraints.

Anyway... Let's see what others have posted...

What I said was neither misleading, nor wrong. Modern linguists who make studying historical texts their life's work, regardless of their personal religious convictions, observe the same phenomena when analyzing Biblical text: Verifiable fact accompanies what modern science deems is impossible, and does so completely without regard to any change in the nature of the text's regard to reality.

Furthermore, this is simply not found in other dated writings, biblical and otherwise, where verifible fact is presented with fiction, but while claiming it to be fact.

The science of linguistics is well-established, and it was on the basis of the findings of numerous leaders in the field that I made my claim, that we can scientifically conclude that the seemingly fictious, or "figurative" portions of the Bible are not fiction at all, but, as did the factual events surrounding them, did indeed occur.

Yes, Cliff. I was being facetious. As a scientist, I'm well-aware of the scientific method.

However, were you aware that many scientists have acute criticisms of the scientific method because of its inherent shortcomings, of which you may be unaware?

For example, Percy W. Bridgman, a Nobel-winning physicist, had this to say about the scientific method:

From CNN Community Staff:

The balance of your post has been removed because it contains material subject to copyright. Please either link to such material or quote one or two sentences only. We will have no option but to remove any posts which contain longer quotes.

Thank you for your assistance,

I think that the objectives of all scientists have this in common--that they are all trying to get the correct answer to the particular problem in hand. This may be expressed in more pretentious language as the pursuit of truth. Now if the answer to the problem is correct there must be some way of knowing and proving that it is correct--the very meaning of truth implies the possibility of checking or verification. Hence the necessity for checking his results always inheres in what the scientist does. Furthermore, this checking must be exhaustive, for the truth of a general proposition may be disproved by a single exceptional case. A long experience has shown the scientist that verious things are inimical to getting the correct answer. He has found that it is not sufficient to trust the word of his neighbor, but that if he wants to be sure, he must be able to check a result for himself. Hence the scientist is the enemy of all authoritarianism. Furthermore, he finds that he often makes mistakes himself and he must learn how to guard against them. He cannot permit himself any preconception as to what sort of results he will get, nor must he allow himself to be influenced by wishful thinking or any personal bias. All these things together give that "objectivity" to science which is often thought to be the essence of the scientific method.

From CNN Community Staff:

The balance of your post has been removed because it contains material subject to copyright. Please either link to such material or quote one or two sentences only. We will have no option but to remove any posts which contain longer quotes.

Thank you for your assistance,

(Back to my own words)

Essentially, you are correct. There are four steps:

1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.

2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.

3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.

4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

However, you left out the purpose of the scientific method: To remove personal and cultural beliefs that influence both our perceptions and our interpretations of natural phenomena.

Since my personal beliefs in the case of my own miracle were overwhelming against miracles, period, as they weren't "hard science," my sudden involvement in one was most unsettling and difficult for me to accept.

In fact, had not a witness been present who was also an engineer who verified the physical constraints of the system and the resulting forces, I'd probably be doubting both the miracle and the accuracy of my work.

In other words, my biases were against miracles, not for them.

I read it. Joy - How beautiful! You really have a way with words in expressing awe-inspiring events!

Cliff, are you implying my miracle wasn't real?

I've other supernatural events I could relate, but they're inconsequential, as they're unverifiable.

My motorcycle accident is the only one I can poke a slipstick at and tell it to say, "Ahhh..."

Cliff - Here's another link debunking the perception that the scientific method is the end-all, be-all in science:

http://dharma-haven.org/science/myth-of-scientific-method.htm

I think that is the most absurd reading of modern scholarship I have ever read. For example, the Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary on the Bible has this, in part, to say about II Kings 2:9-12a "The story of Elijah's miraculous translation probably originally had something to do with the myth of the chariots of the sun. In later legend, Elijah is ranked with Moses as one whom God personally cared for, and for this reason no one knows their graves."

The evidence from form criticism is to the contrary. Your premise is clearly wrong. But, Dave, even if you your premise was correct, the use of the word "scientifically" in that context would be wrong because you exclude possibilities that exist. As long as those possibilities exist, it is not scientific to say they do not exist, and particularly to say they do not exist "scientifically."

As Ronald Reagan would say: "There you go again." :-)

E.C., Ph.D. - Monday, 07/05/99, 9:16:16pm (#4253 of 4271) "Dave Resnick 7/5/99 9:01pm Would you believe it were a proveable miracle of an airliner angled at 60 degrees nose low and three-hundred knots encountered an impossible change in vector two-hundred feet off the ground and made a safe landing?" Dave Resnick - Tuesday, 07/06/99, 12:18:11am (#4260 of 4271) E.C., Ph.D. 7/5/99 9:16pm "It sounds like turbulent mixing ... No, it was no "turbulent mixing in the atmosphere..," I maintain that it was God.

Benz: "let me support it with ... From Lufthansa.. we found ourselves in a tiny poor Arab country's airliner .."ride a wreck".. I knew my ride a wreck old cars . and Instron based.....breakpoints ..The entire passengers got concerned. I looked outside the window... what I saw came along (demonstrated exclusively to me)...and engulfed the plane ..help us land safely ...you would want to know ....Cliff, the agnostics ,I guarantee you would go into prostration .. As recently as 24 months ago, I had pre-accident demostrated experience .During the initial 45 mins ride , I made everyone in the car repeat again and again a given verse (for such occasion safety)...Zoom.. Next moment, at 80 miles/hr or 130 -Km /hr luckilly ,we fell in a snowy ditch .First the pileup snow acted as parachute( speed reducers ) .It was prevention and means of rescue which were demonstrated ... in advance ...intentionally.who runs the show ...To whom I had made repeat the verses again and again can verify.. Benz Zakar

They have? I’ve seen the handy-dandy neutrino postulated to explain "missing" energy from specific events, and I’m sure the postulators would love to assign "missing" mass there as well. But I’ve never heard of an actual neutrino interaction being detected, and if there is no event there is only the postulated carrier rather than the carrier itself.

IOW, existence by inference. In the shield project, the measured negentropy was postulated to have something to do with the shield and its properties, as outside the shield entropy marched on as usual. This tended to suggest a physical agent of some kind (field/quanta) which can be said to be the "carrier" or "agent" of entropy, which was deflected.

Because the prerequisite baseline assumption underlying the vast majority of research in physics is the standard model, the handy-dandy non-interacting "carrier" naturally became neutrinos. Again, inference only. I still think neutrinos are a theoretical cop-out, but I could be wrong. §:o)

Uh, Dave you might want to try actually reading a post you are replying to....

Nowhere did I say that matter/energy are not quantized - I simply argued that you can't state that spacetime is. Davisson-Gerner demonstrated the quantum nature of matter (specifically electrons). If you can point to a site (or preferrably a refereed reference) that demonstrates that spacetime is quantized, please do so.

As for microbursts - E.C was explaining how it affects airplanes, perhaps I'm being presumptuous, but I don't think he was applying it to your flight! ;)

As for quantum gravity - I'll wait for the Nobel Prize speech! There's an awful lot of attempts being made, right now it looks like the most solid ones are being made via M theory. However, I'm not holding my breath.

I was with you fine until you got to the above, Dave. Space is not the same thing as matter/energy (probability), or the position/momentum question (uncertainty). Space is dimensional. Length, breadth, volume. Time may be a discreet phenomenon - I personally believe so - but space is just space. It is not a field, thus cannot be quantized. There may be a field which permeates space, but if the big bang model is correct (to the limitations of the standard model), the parameters of the universe were exponentially expanded just prior to the event and are in no way limited by or subjected to time. Time, like gravity, is a relative factor of matter and energy.

Joy

Sure. In fact, SN1987a was actually detected before the light even arrived. They just didn't know hwat the neutrino shower was from. The neutrino burst (13 sec) arrived about 20 hours before the light did (SN physics - the neutrinos pass through the outer imploding layers after core collapse, while the EM is not observed until the bounce back shockwave hits the stellar surface.

SNO was built specifically to address the Solar Neutrino problem. Nucleosynthesis predicts a certain quantity of neutrinos to be produce within both the p-p and CNO cycles, but we only observe about 1/3 the requisite number. So, either the nuclear physics is wrong (which is unlikely at this stage - it's made too many verifiable predictions) or perhaps neutrino physics is wrong. if a neutrino has mass, then (so theory) goes it is possible to change flavours (from an electron neutrino to a tauon or muon neutrino). Since our experiments are set up to detect electron neutrinos, we are missing the others.

If you are curious, check out Queen's University tin Kingston Ontario. They operate SNO, and the system just recently came on line. Sorry I don't have the link handy.

Other experiments are Homestake (in the US) which started detecting neutrinos in the 1960's, kamioka in Japan (which claims they have mass, but is somewhat dubious), SAGE and GALLEX which are US-Russian and US-European collaborations. All of them are geared towards the Solar neutrino problem and whther neutrinos oscillate, however they can be used as "neutrino" telescopes also.

Cheers.

Joy

SNO con't

Try www.sno.phys.queensu.ca. Details of the experiment and its current status, as well as background material. Neutrinos were postulated in 1930 by Pauli to help with Beta decay, but we were first detected in 1956 (I have forgotten who, but Nobel prizes were awarded). The big issue with neutrinos is whether or not they have mass. If they have a tiny amount of mass, then they would be the primary constituent of the Universe (they are that common) and would actually solve the whole missing mass/dark matter debate. However, the field is still wide open....

Cheers

I’m not sure what to think about quantum gravity either, Devon. Its distortions of spacetime appear to be a product of mass, yet it also appears that elementary particles contain within themselves asymmetrical expressions of infinite mass (the turtles get bigger all the way down). This suggests that gravity may be a dimensional expression of mass rather than a gauge field (with quanta).

...or, if there is specific charge to the quanta of magnetism (subjecting the magnetic guage field to conservation), we have a monopole, which leads situation of coexistence in the singularity (the infinity hosting the "other" end of the string). Gravity could be the active effect. Because gravity (congregations of matter/mass) is known to bend time as well as space, the nature of time may be bound in this dimensional symmetry as well.

Dave,

"Assuming that all thought is rational, and that the variation is due solely to lack of complete knowledge, then that trend line, or locus, would be absolute truth, or at least close to it (error due to input error variations)."

1) What do you mean by 'rational'?

2) The variation could be due to either incomplete or incorrect input.

3) Why is the trend line the absolute truth. Can it not equally be absolutely false?

TOM

Devon - my comment about the possibility that matter/energy (Yang-Mills guage fields) may enjoy a subdimensionality (small dimensions operating inside the large dimensions) brings me back to the nature of time and inferred existence.

If time is a discreet consequence of matter interactions, it is quantifiable. If it is quantifiable, the inference is that there is a separate relativity factor associated with time. I’ve called it "Not-Time," which is hadier for the concept than "eternity" or "infinity," which tend to be conceptualized in terms of time by the human brain. "Forever and ever" suggests passage of time. "Infinity" suggests passage of time... etc. I am signifying the opposing concept (antiparticle or antifield) rather than the indefinite extension of time passage or freezing of entropy.

Second Law violations such as negative entropy or antigravity (one experiment of interest is linked through Pitkanen’s home page for TGD) open up a large can of theoretical worms. (a) the nightcrawlers - that time is discreet (thus quantifiable), thus associated with a quantum agent, and (b) the roundworms - that gravity and time may be manifestations of the same force, which when its symmetry is broken produces both along with a tunnel between timespaces (the ‘waters’ above and below the ‘firmament’ of heaven). The precursor may be the magnetic monopole, with its poles existing in separate timespaces. The tunnel between timespaces is Not-Time in this scenario.

Oh, heck, Dave. That was just subjective experience (mine and several others present) of the angels associated with "Phase I," which is the documented miracle (attested in a court of law by the physicians involved in 2 states) empirically via physical evidence. Survival. Angels never came up in court, and will not. Phase III was "Not-Time," (also accompanied by angels), a different subject altogether! §:o)

What you have told us about the physical anomalies associated with your accident, those are a kind of objective evidence which can be judged by logic. Physical evidences demonstrate that some "rules" were broken. Had you seen an angel in the path of your motorcycle when this accident occurred, who reached out and altered your trajectory and momentum, this would be considered subjective evidence that your friend could repeat verbatim and it still wouldn’t be admissible for purposes of judgment. IOW, your experience of the angel would not "prove" that the angel was really there. Because angels do not enjoy legal status, the evidence of your experience is inadmissible. See what I mean?

Dave - Meaning that they wouldn’t let you talk about angels in open court unless they were trying to prove you insane. What surprised me about this late trial is that talk of miracles was allowed. I call this the "Miracle Defense," which may become a new benchmark in malpractice claims if our appeal is denied.

The "Miracle Defense" is affirmative/Fabre without actually demonstrating fault of others. Instead, it unites the many other possibly negligent parties in the defense that there is no legal responsibility to intervene in a "miracle" if it can be demonstrated as a "miracle." It means that the defense was allowed to argue that since our son’s survival of the trauma was unprecedented - a genuine "miracle" - none of his physicians had a responsibility to treat his injuries. The miracle was time, and the defense argued that it was not required to act on a "miraclulous" extension of time.

The worst part of this is that the jury bought it.

Dave - The subject of "miracles" being introduced by the defense served to completely switch the adversarial roles in this drama. The poor doctors had pious faith in the "miracle," above all else. Death then by extension becomes "God’s Will" rather than the will of the physician who decides not to treat a treatable diagnosed injury. The doctors were allowed to plead divine intervention. We were not.

Analogous to your circumstances in this way: Suppose the miraculous diversion of death in your motorcycle accident happened not to spare you a compound fracture of the femur. You get to the hospital and start telling your angel story (backed up by your friend), and the doctors decide your survival is truly miraculous. Therefore they have no responsibility to set your fracture, as God is the one who decided to let you live. Let God fix the leg...

Sure enough, a couple of months later you’ve developed gangrene in the leg. Eventually you are an emergent situation and the leg must be amputated. You sue the doctors who refused to set the leg in the first place for negligence. They claim that it was God’s job to save your leg, since he’s the one who saved your life, and prevail in a supposedly secular court of law.

As you can guess, the challenge to this bizarre defense should be most interesting.

Joy,

You do have a way with words. Thanks.

TOM

Do ya mean it, TOM? <blush> Gee... we haven’t even brushed shoulders with the subject of time machines yet! §:o)

Devon Hamilton - Tuesday, 07/06/99, 10:17:07am (#4276 of 4279)

"Joy If you are curious, check out Queen's University tin Kingston Ontario. They operate SNO, and the system just recently came on line. Sorry I don't have the link handy. Other experiments are Homestake (in the US) which started detecting neutrinos in the 1960's, kamioka in Japan (which claims they have mass, but is somewhat dubious)" Devon, Indeed ..it is a spin! SRC & Discovery channel gave me phone number of Sudbury Research ... after showing photomultipliers I had assembled for them ..

First I wrote to discovery channel that I had collected neutrinos in disk.They in turn gave me a phone number of Sudbury Research Station Director.The staf gave me his email to Queenuniv.ca who in turn gave an over email. Each ,of them had same wrongly dictated description.Within 24 hours of my emailing to all ..Japan had announced that they have detected mass.

This CNN board is science and religion ..

I am giving the best ,original ,backed with everything including religion... verses and scientific...facts.. verifiable above.. Remember ,the examination joke I threw in recent post. how the brilliant girl took revenge ...." she made me copy wrong ...." For my revenge ..all of them have been assembled , relax... and enjoy...

Benz Zakar

Joy,

Naw, but we have congruent fairies.

TOM

Benz - If the Japanese project receives a Nobel for its discovery, you got closer than I did! Am I to presume your discovery is equivalent (mass?). If so, can you give us an MeV?

Super-Kamiokande Neutrino detector proves overwhelming, definitely and without any doubt that no Neutrino event are coming from the Sun. Of course, the Super-Kamiokande cannot detect any Neutrino from the Sun... says their report

I wrote neutrinos of the holy verse and my findings...

Don't be surprise .. if a white skin grafted custom made Jesus, a Japanese baby monk appears with neutrinos mass mass and Nobel Prize .. giving certificates for alternative lifestyles..etc. scary!

Benz Zakar

Folk all over our two islands saw a large meteor explode this afternoon .. wow

Way cool, Rosemary! Did you see it? How big... details when you next breeze through, please. §:o)

Sounds like you’re not too impressed by the Kamiokande event, Benz. You would know more about its credibility than I do, since I’ve never read the report.

Don’t worry. If they awarded Nobel prizes for accuracy and long-term soundness of theory, they would have to take back many of the prizes that have been given. It’s just money and prestige. Again, I do not understand your religious references, as I do not recognize any religious significance to neutrinos.

I am still not convinced neutrinos are anything other than a handy theoretical hiding place for energy/mass which cannot be accounted for in the standard model. If they can be demonstrated to be as numerous as "missing" energy/mass demands, good. If not, too bad.

From the Queen Univ,Ca, a major prof of elect eng same univ (two diff campus /Licensing dispute)and I were in a major court for my ID problem supervised by an Engineer named Taher Quereshi in 1970s when they had hijacked me from the Lab in EU.Apparently, an illiterate man ,a restaurant chef was made a replica of mine ,financed by Saudi Fund .They made him verses specialist as well as they opened clonining labs , specialists in everyfield etc.

Their high priced lawyer from 500 lawyers Lawfirm after 23 different judges appearances (making me pay sometimes $5000/appearance -without getting heard),told me even if they have to spend $10m you won't get heard.car windows were broken before court hearings ,got me fired from even non- eng jobs terrized me by a cult called "winners & losers" with big name members Sheik Bush ,Sheika Thatcher, kuwait ,blood related dispute people ... Not a fairy tale Tom !

I just clicked an Engineer named Taher Qureshi in computer.Guess what he apparently has moved next door to my residence but no sign exc of him except in computer.He seemed to be running everything a God can sell via computer ...all technologies (in everyfield chem,to biological,elect,computers,hitech to money ,banking to stocks doing projects .. I followed a lead given Tiqson Technologies Inc., I came up this is one man company linked with so called associates..This is not against this Taher Qureshi or Tiqson Technologies Inc.as such .On the contrary ,it is promoting their business But if you are in business don't go anywhere just click Tiqson..and you have access to world resource,perhaps ..

How about this ... still fairy tale ? Lo ! I just caught one maj lab to whom I had asked t

continued..

to evaluate languages .. thing I had mentioned earlier...They nrc seem to link with them against me.. E.C., Ph.D. - Wednesday, 07/07/99, 11:41:20am (#4292 of 4293)

Rosemary Behan 7/7/99 5:47am "It should be noted that the suggestion that the Taurids might produce a shower visible during the daylight hours of summer was first mentioned during 1940 by Fred L. Whipple. "

E.C Phd & Rosemary Behan, "Super-Kamiokande: Super-Proof for Neutrino Non-Existence by Ricardo Carezani & Lucy Haye edited by David de Hilster & Amnon Meyers 1.- Fantasia. One can agree or disagree with the Walt Disney's philosophy used in his characters, but there is a world wide consensus that Fantasia is Disney's conception.Twentieth century Physic's equivalent of Fantasia has been the Neutrino. During the last 67 years (1998-1931)"

Not a fairy tale below... I wrote before that I was hired over 36 phds 97 Engineers.. to work on universe type of material converted into white crystal ..pigments ..Where I was framed to quit after I had disclosed my findings to the illiterate chef.. my brother..

Apparently,as a replica ,he has opened a company mfg crystal a Saudi Banker named ... who in turn bought portion of a business with ..USA bigname..MJ and walt Disneys .. & bigname ..US-UK -Ca -Saudi .. .wheelers & dealers.. members of the cult "winners & losers" trying to prove they are the God .One was Saudi Astronaut ... working with NASA..After I had made fuss ..that they are going to drop some kind of meteorite over Kaaba holding a piece of Meteorite via NASA( followed by Haj pilgrims killings) & Neutrinos Labs or will show some Fantasias... to prove they are the God ,holder of power, creating ...alternative lifestyle ..erasing books of God.religions..The Saudi Astronaut died in Swiss Air 111 flight ..or was it for his death publicity ..111 passengers had to die .Funny enough, same time my Kal

continued....Kali Ma informed .. .. and I asked Sudbury Neutrinos Research ..are you making some kind of film with Walt Disney and Prince ...or what..

Fantasias...or real

Benz Zakar

????

E.C. - If you check out the site Benz linked, you’ll understand. Much of his post is related. It’s a paper debunking the Kamiokande event.

"Once upon a time a Super-Kamiokande Neutrino Detector ..........."

I told you I am not convinced about neutrinos, Benz. I liked the site, and will download the full paper. I still do not understand how this relates to religion.

There are some issues regarding the validity of the concept of autodynamics and its refutation of the existence of neutrinos. A well used question which hints at this theoretical framework's shortcomings relates to the spin and the conservation of angular momentum.

Suppose an isolated neutron spontaneously decays into a proton and electron each of which possesses a spin h-bar/2. IF the neutron happens to have a spin "up" orientation, the proton has a spin "down" orientation, and the electron has a spin "up" orientation, there exists unconserved angular momentum in the form of an extra h-bar alotted to the electron. It can't be orbital angular momentum--the neutron was at rest. If one can't account for the extra/missing angular momentum, can we conclude that nature doesn't conserve angular momentum? One can use a combination of photons, or bosons, but one would run into the problem of integer spins which would still fail to yield a conservation of angular momentum. The problem is easily rectified with the inclusion of nearly massless and chargeless lepton known as the neutrino which autodynamics (AD) prohibits. According to AD this excess angular momentum is merely "absorbed" by environment.

One other issue that should be raised is the emphasis that the Super-Kamiokande Neutrino Detector results regarding neutrino interactions only being 1/3rd of their predicted quantity. From this, it is stipulated that neutrinos don't exist without accounting for those incidences involving the possible interactions. This is a classic case of "observational selection" as highlighted in Dr. Sagan's Baloney Detection kit. It is the inverse of the scenario described as "counting the hits and forgetting the misses". If AD hopes to supplant Special Relativity as a viable theory then it most not only account for these experimental results but also predict everything that Relativity has done to this point plus

continued

phenomena hereto unpredicted or unexplained within the context of Einstein's formulation.

Dave Resnick

A few days ago you described in incident in which a plane in which you were travelling nearly plowed into the tarmac on final approach with its nose pointed down at 60 degrees. The sudden correction of trajectory necessary for the miraculous landing would have exerted a load of roughly 40gs on the plane and occupants alike. If you believe in miracles in which the laws of physics can and routinely are rendered null and void then fine. I cannot convince you otherwise. But at 40gs, the plane would disintegrate instantaneously, and its occupants might well turn into the consistency of beef stew before impact.

Mind you, the occupants would not literally turn into a gooey mess but they certainly would be in no mood to enjoy their airline pretzels.

Okay, E.C. You grasp the shortfall of SR that requires neutrinos, and you seem to have a better grasp than me of this omnipresent all-encompassing "energy field" of autodynamics.

Aha! Does this mean that autodynamics is some sort of science-styled pseudoreligion? And THAT’s what the big deal with neutrinos is? I’m honestly asea on this one. I’ve asked and asked, and I’ve even perused the sites. I was evaluating the logic and the physics, not looking for religious overtones. Did I miss something?

benz,

I was not referring to your post as a fairy tale. I was referring to the fairies in Joys' spring and in my cactus plant.

Sorry for the confusion.

TOM

I can't say either way since I am not completely versed in its underpinnings. It could well be an honest attempt at proposing an alternative framework upon which to base high energy physics or it could be work in the vein of Velikovsky. Either way, its proposal is fundamentally healthy for science since it drives us to reexamine theories which have served as the foundation of our current world view. Every so often a new idea can remake the world or it can be used for target practice depending on its ability to model the physical universe. We can obtain a new weapon in our arsenal of tools used in piercing our ignorance of the cosmos and its laws or we can improve our aim by obliterating new theories which aren't up to snuff with our current weapons (theories).

I'll bet you've got it EC, while the powers that be here still haven't worked it out. In the link I'm going to try and provide, there is a small picture of the smoke??? left behind after the explosion. Bright daylight at that time, it was apparently coming in at an angle of about 45 degrees, or so most of the people said. I didn't see it personally.

Thanks everyone ..for safety remarks... The silence of every media ,news & radio (ethnics- hindus,muslims,christians,sikhs ..) have been bought .They in turn ..including Pope Paul II are taking spin in all of them combined vs the God ...everything ..people imagined .. For instance ...if my wife Christel... has she anything to do with virgin Mary .. or is she Christ came in disguise.. For muslims ..was my daughter same as the daughter of the prophet who were saving him while as a child .. ...anything is possible..

Right now can you help that they don't drop nuclear mini meteorites bombs for India as a starter ...terrorising ..Kashmiris. Lately they remarked that the world has to become Hindus.When asked by Australia what about 150m muslims in India , the leadership at the highest level said ...we don't recognize muslim religion.They are hindus.. (I have proof) Benz Zakar

a back of the envelope calculation reveals that a stony meteorite with a mean density of 5.4 g cm^-3 and diameter of roughly half a meter impinging on the atmosphere at 20 km s^-1 (most meteors travel between 10 km s^-1 and 70 km s^-1 so this is a low end calculation reserved for small bolides) will release energy equivalent to 4.6 kilotons. Luckily, it detonated high in the atmosphere or a Tunguska-like event could have occurred over New Zealand.

Are you in the middle of the war, Benz? No one here is able to do anything about it, but some of us do know about the dangers of war. I am sorry for my failure to understand the message you seek to express. Please try to translate it, and I will try very hard to understand. I don’t think you are worried about neutrinos. Neither am I.

Where's Mir?

In orbit last time I heard but when it does enter the atmosphere, its debris will be travelling at a minuscule velocity compared to that meteors and cometary debris. A chunk will end up here and their as happened when Skylab reentered the atmosphere back in the 70s without much fanfare.

I wouldn't be so concerned about India dropping nuclear meteorites on Kashmir. Rather, I would worry about the more immediate threat of an accidental or intentional detonation of a thermonuclear device by either Pakistan or India. However, that's another message board.

EC, thanks for the time and trouble. Most of us will probably never know how close we came to a major disaster. I wonder if they will inform the New Zealand populace.

E.C., Ph.D. - Wednesday, 07/07/99, 10:11:54pm (#4310 of 4314) "Rosemary Behan 7/7/99 9:00pm a back of the envelope calculation reveals that a stony meteorite with a mean density of 5.4 g cm^-3 and diameter of roughly half a meter impinging on the atmosphere at 20 km s^-1 (most meteors travel between 10 km s^-1 and 70 km s^-1 so this is a low end calculation reserved for small bolides) will release energy equivalent to 4.6 kilotons. Luckily, it detonated high in the atmosphere or a Tunguska-like event could have occurred over New Zealand."

E.C.Phd, The material white crystal when added to smoke, to paper,plastics,to anything produced whitest of white 500x higher than regular whitener..@ $thousands/t.The meteorite explosion photograph presented ..seems very white.....One of the story of Sudbury Mines ..was they were working on meteorites when I was brought to Toronto... When asked why Candu reactor thing are moving in the mining pits... "we are going to work on Neutrinos ..may take 15 yrs to build...In the interim we are looking into material brought from Russian Republics ..how to dispose these in mini tubes ..etc.I can prove it... "

Then I found myself in Saudi Arabia in Osama Bin Ladin's father's construction company ..with Benz Research Associates .I was 30 and Osama Bin Ladin was 20 + yrs younger(from today).I met only the Dutch Engineer who asked me to assemble ,project engineers from US/Canada and have tons of contracts.The struggling consulting engineers came in and I mentioned Bin Ladin Inc..kaput.I was already a prisoner from UK and had lost my invention apparently gone to Ballard ..free.Now I read Osama Bin ladin a fugutive .. and "winners & Losers" declared themselves as God ..trying to erase religion,bible.Quran,Gita.. I am sure frame up against Osama must have come from those who had hijacked me from EU Lab....See the link.. Sudbury Mine turned above..neutrinos & ca

continued... ..candu plants,meteorite plants.. Osama ,a fugutive ,while in the name of OSAMA ,terrorists ..the big name "winners & Losers "cult having good times

I am as much researcher as you are ..except I am giving you feed back from above angle.. The Tauride ..Meteorite photos,Japan Neutrinos .. feedback came from your side ..The others gave feed back from Bible angle..Quran angle,hinduism angle.I gave you The God.. everything.. try to join it. Why should you let "winners & Losers" have fruits, bomb US embassies or make them bomb Sudan pharmaceutical plants or carpet bombing to kill Osama (away from his $5B construction H/O in Saudi Arabia as a fugutive) ..see link of big names... Keep asking.. Benz Zakar

Although a white residual cloud following the detonation of the bolide may indicate that the fragment may have possessed material that would render its hue as white, it is more likely that the particulates dispersed from the initial explosion are of the appropriate size for the scattering of all wavelengths of sunlight in much that same way as cloud droplets of a few micrometers in diameter give clouds their white appearance. This is known as Mie scattering and is only dependent on the size of the aerosols rather than their composition.

Rosemary, contamination is most important, if youre worried about what it really was. Wash all surfaces, gathering durface dust. Paper towels only. Rinse all dinnerware. Keep windows and doors shut, leave the pets outside. If its nothing, its nothing. If its something, decon proceedures will work surprisingly well. Basic clean, be wary of dust.

Benz, my friend. Please attempt to give this information to These People if it’s important. If it is not, please try to answer my question. §:o)

Funny that the WebX acts up just now...

Sure you can. The first experiments proving this were conducted in the early 1930's! Quantum time and movement is nothing new, Devon. It's simply different enough from what we experience on the macro scale as "continuous" that most people refuse to accept it.

I re-read it. He was appying it to my motorcycle accident, not to my flight.

It's dimentional on our scale. Even the "empty" vacccuum of deep space contains incredible potential energies.

Every so often our Universe lets loose with an incredible burst of energy, without an apparent source. The most recent one was this spring, as reported on CNN's headlines. Most astrophysicists theorize that it may be instabilities in space-time itself.

It seems even empty space has a field, and thus can, in fact, be quantized.

It manifest itself in that manner on a macro scale, yes.

However, what did you think of the autodynamics page, Joy?

In its normative sense. A statement such as "the sky is blue" is rational. One like "dead cows do calculus better than live mathemeticians," however, is not.

Not if the entry condition (rational thought) was held.

No. See previous.

Yup. It still blows my mind.

I didn't see an angel. I did feel as if I were "lifted," and disoriented. As I lettered in Diving, and was heavily into gymnastics from an early age, such disorientation was very foreign to me. From my perspective, the world moved around me in a way physically impossible.

However, these personal observations are subjective and unproveable, which is why I left them out and concentrated on what I could prove, namely the impossibility of the output given the intial conditions of the system.

That's expected, from the fact that jury selection weeds out those who have opinions, religious beliefs, and can generally think for themselves on a rational basis.

Not ALL jurors, mind you, but this does apply to a great many of them.

I'm sorry for the outcome. Would love to know more, but I understand and respect your restrictions. I'm praying that God would guard your heart and mind in Christ Jesus throughout this ordeal, Joy.

The challenge is simple - were the doctors faced with a medical condition which they could treat, or not? If so, their refusal to treat it constitutes culpable negligence. Cause of injury is irrelevent, as same-type injuries can have myriads of different causes.

Although the challeng is simple, as you mentioned, the jury's still out, and, unfortunately, cases are often decided on the basis of emotion, not reason.

I'm still praying!

Cool! Never saw one explode, but I witnessed a large, flaming, tumbling, apparently slow-moving meteor cross the night sky in the 1980's.

Not so cool if it landed on or near your island, though...

As I mentioned in the same post, possibly with the precedent word, "suppose," that this incident was merely an analogy. That you believe they'd turn to stew and jelly is a correct belief.

The analogy was in reference to a motorcycle accident during which I'd undergone a change in vector that should have turned me to stew and jelly, but did neither. What's even more miraculous is that there was no cause of the vector change, either, as I separated from the bike before the accident. The bike was totaled as it plowed into a tree at 65mph. I was safe and without harm, landing in a ditch at quite a different angle that both the bike and I had been on the moment before the impact.

The change in vector is equivalent to an increase in an orthoganal component of 45 mph within a distance of approximately 14 inches. This increase occurred as both the bike and I were mid-air, over a ditch, and approximately eleven feet prior to the bike's point of impact on the tree.

Neat, huh? No pretzels, though.

I must say yours was the most thorough treatise on autodynamics I've yet seen on the Internet. Most avoid its discussion altogether, perhaps due to the perceived threat of association and resultant demise of their professional career.

Then again, this is sheer speculation...

You seem to have an oversight. I searched the Autodynamics site extensively for comments on conservation of angular momentum, including all of their "Formal Mathematical Derivations for Autodynamics" and could find no mention of it.

http://www.autodynamics.org/new99/Frames/index.html

However, AD still seems to fit observed data with better results than SR.

One of the things I have a problem with is AD's claim that time dialation doesn't occur, and explain's away the observed flying atomic clock variations as "AD does not reject the apparent confirmation that the motion changes atomic rhythm."

Atomic rhythm is a direct measurement of time. The only thing that changes the output of an atomic clock is time-dialation.

No kidding! Between the flaming debris and peculiar-shaped cloud, it could have been Mir!

However, Mir's demise is still in the future, as its orbit is decaying rather slowly...

Also, when Skylab came down, no explosions were heard. Just flaming debris.

Highly unlikely either rad, bio, or chem exposure. Wrong det parms, alt, time of day, etc.

Have a nice day!

Of course the issue is simple, Dave. The trick is to get the appellate court to acknowledge it. The technicalities involved are pretty much beyond 6 "peers" if the defense is allowed to argue those technicalities as being "Miraculous." I think it’s incredible in the extreme that the trial court allowed them to do so in the first place.

Because the defense was allowed to change its affirmative pleadings to Fabre, the introduction of the "Miracle Defense" means that God has been "named" as one of the non-party co-defendants which the real defendant wishes to apportion blame with. In order for God to be recognized as a non-party co-defendant, we can then insist that the defense demonstrate:

(a) Proof that a Miracle in fact occurred, (b) that God is the cause of that Miracle, (c) that God exists as a legal entity, (d) that God is licensed to practice medicine, and (e) that responsibility for the patient was properly transferred (and accepted) to God’s service. Then the defense will have to provide "expert" testimony that God was negligent in his medical care of our son.

...should be great fun!

Hmmm... appears WebX has burped once again, and lost my previous post. Accepting the elfin explanation that this occurrs while the webmeisters are tweaking (and not because I'm being bad), I'll try again...

I can visualize a field inhabiting space, a "medium" rather than a "vacuum." I have trouble conceptualizing this field AS space.

"what did you think of the autodynamics page, Joy?"

I thought it was well-reasoned, but I also think I’ll have to backtrack in time (via my handy-dandy time machine) to figure out concepts taken for granted now, but which I am completely unfamiliar with. Seems this is one of those theories attempting to account for the holes in Relativity, but I’ve not kept up very much since I left the physics 20+ years ago. It has only been my experience of Not-Time 7 years ago that started me looking around again.

So I reserve judgment... §:o)

And luckily, the "flaming debris" that just happened to be the reactor just happened to fall in an uninhabited region. If heavy metal energy sources (such as U-238 or Plutonium) were so easily disposed of by intense heat, there wouldn’t be any reactors in this world, and no high-level waste to dispose of.

My decon basics for Rosemary were a "just in case" reasonable caution that will help ease fear as well as clean the house. Win-win either way. §:o)

Apologies one and all if this comes through as a repost. Either the system swallowed it, or the elf decided that mild critiques of theorists is dtrimental to the health of the Universe.

Dave

re: Is time quantized?

Check out www.sciam.com/askexpert/physics/physics4.html.

They repeat what I said. There is no EXPERIMENTAL evidence for the discrete nature or qunatization of time.

However, all three make the point that theoretical work on quantum gravity would probably neccesitate that time be discrete on the Planck scale. I have no problem with that, however my point was that we have no observatinal evidence that time is quantized. Just as many theorists argue that it is continuous as argue that it's discrete. That's theory for you.

Cheers.

Dave

Which experiments demonstrated time as being quantized? Davisson-Gerner dealt with quantization of electrons (changing their "wavelength"). I have never run across a QM or QED or QCD experiment which demonstrated the quantization of time. So either I've been reading the wrong texts, or I've completely missed some fairly significant stuff.

As for spacetime being a field - I assume the explosions you refer to are gamma ray bursters. We now have a pretty good handle on the sources, we theink they are high redshift collisions between neutron stars and black holes. Extremely rare, but the Universe is large enough for it to happen fairly frequently. Compton (gamma-ray satellite) picks them up, and since it's all done in real-time, automated cameras on the Earth can be used to image it in the visible. Earlier this year they picked up one in under 22 seconds. Calculations of the interaction of a neutron star in a decaying orbit around a massive blackhole yield energies and spectral distributions consistent with what's observed.

I assume that what you consider as spacetimes "field" is the vacuum energy, which is a direct consequence of QM. Spacetime on the qunatum scale resembles a "froth" - the HUP allows for the spontaneous production and mutual annihalation of particle-anti-particle pairs. Essentially, vacuum has a non-zero energy. However, this is not the same as saying as spacetime is quantized.

Yup

The system is confused.

My original post of 2 hours ago just popped up again. Apologies all.

I'm glad I'm not the only one being burped, Devon! §:o)

I admit confusion as to the nature of the "geometry" field being described by Dave as quantized geometry (space). I am even more confused as to the relative importance on both sides attached to neutrinos. In my one experience with the subject of neutrinos as the agents of entropy, I recognized the fallacy long before anyone else on the project did. Such a finding would have quantized time, by using the same theoretical cop-out used to fill every other hole in SR.

Special Relativity requires neutrinos (or some such beastie) to account for "missing" conservation values. If neutrinos are quantized entropy, the "missing" values must then be assigned to entropy. Not too many people feel comfortable about that, including me. In autodynamics the values are conserved by the surrounding geometry field.

Yet neutrinos (or beasties that look and act a lot like neutrinos) have apparently been detected. They just haven’t been detected in sufficient numbers. And unless it can be reliably demonstrated that the beasties have mass enough to make up for their lack of population, SR retains its holes.

I personally (for aesthetic reasons) like the strings that result from field vector realignments (symmetry-breaking) which lead to "other" spacetimes. Neutrinos are irrelevant to this model, though it is being applied to certain neutrino experiments. Geometry, however, remains geometry.

If gravity and time turn out to be quanta of the same fundamental force, we will have to re-think the geometry question. Autodynamics seems a jump ahead of itself. If geometry is field-based, the big bang model will have to be re-thought, since energy fields are specifically limited by the "speed" of energy expansion through geometric space. There wouldn’t be any geometric space for matter/energy to expand into if it’s a field, because the field would be limited to the speed of light just like everything else.

IOW, The "end" of the universe is the same as its "beginning" - as close to us as the particles of our own atoms. In order for our consciousness to perceive a universe 16 or so billion years old (as the light flies), there must be a separate relativity or two which have not yet been factored into the equations. One of these relativities would be a product of gravity, the other a product of time.

"As Above, So Below." Maybe we’ll find both Alpha and Omega inside ourselves.

E.C., Ph.D. - Thursday, 07/08/99, 12:36:14am (#4318 of 4334)

"benz zakar 7/7/99 11:59pm Although a white residual cloud following the detonation of the bolide may indicate that the fragment may have possessed material that would render its hue as white, it is more likely that the particulates dispersed from the initial explosion are of the appropriate size for the scattering of all wavelengths of sunlight in much that same way as cloud droplets of a few micrometers in diameter give clouds their white appearance. This is known as Mie scattering and is only dependent on the size of the aerosols rather than their composition".

Joy Busey - Thursday, 07/08/99, 12:53:58am (#4319 of 4334) "benz zakar 7/7/99 11:59pm Benz, my friend. Please attempt to give this information to These People if it’s important. If it is not, please try to answer my question."

Factors controlling dispersion based upon particle size distribution ,thixotropy,froth floation are related white whiteness could have been based upon scattering wavelength ,bubble technology(clouds,water or aerosol)similar creation of smoke of Jetairplane sometimes you see leave behind trail of white smoke lingering on there long after it has fly past.. , or a miniature rocket deliberately exploded ... Benz Zakar

One other quick point I'd like to make is that if the bolide which exploded over New Zealand broke up as low as the upper stratosphere (~50 km) or mesosphere (~50-80 km in altitude) it is possible that particles could serve as condensation nuclei resulting in the formation of water vapor clouds. There is just barely sufficient water vapor at these levels in the atmosphere to allow for condensation as witnessed in the development of nacreous and noctilucent clouds which are visible at twilight in the Northern Hemisphere during the spring and summer months.

For more information concerning these phenomena see

and

The NLC site is interesting! Rosemary did give us the sun angle, and it’s winter in New Zealand, so "afternoon" here could be deep twighlight there. I didn’t get the feeling that this phenomenon was observed across the 2 islands as being within 20 degrees of the horizon, tho’. Since there’s no postulated explanation for these clouds, which are fairly common between May and July in both hemispheres, I doubt exploding meteors can settle the question. The New Zealand event is more unique, though so far everyone’s agreeing with your interpretation, E.C.

...you weren’t playing with your soda rockets in the back yard again, were you? §:o)

Before Tom turns the spotlight on me and my bottle rockets, to which I’d be forced to respond with the standard on-camera reaction to questions the spinmeisters didn’t check out ahead of time, I’ll go ahead and admit that we did set off a few during the time period. They were strictly sub-stratospheric, I assure you.

Standard on-camera reaction to undesirable questions? "...I’m glad you asked me that..." Analogous to the ubiquitous "...no danger to the general public..." associated with core-dumps, WebX hiccups and flaming reactor-sized debris falling from the sky. §:o)

E.C.,Phd.

Things below should be ..evaluated: At Noctilucents clouds , I was deliberately ..shown time travel vehicle flypast (resembling ufo) factors, one of the factors magnifiable for veil,waves,bands etc

Nacreous clouds red & multicoloured daily around sunset to approx 1-4 hrs (winter-summer) are phenomenon anywhere in the World and has religious significance .In my book of knowledge evening item is called "Shafq" or morning before sunrise is called "oofq"

Then in-between, an item was shown which is similar to emergency pull of the christ type (backwards) like crucification surrounded by crowds (hostile)

For water vapor at stratosphere and mesosphere at 50km or above ..I was demonstrated consequence of shifting ,swindling, as if human ...followed by a biblical knowledge ...seven heaven phenomenon showing only one .. with a mechanism shown.. I would not know ..beyond what I saw

Benz Zakar

Natural phenomena do not have a religious significance. It is merely an observer's interpretation of the phenomena which yields a religious connotation. Really, nature could care less.

13th century Franciscan monks had a strange way of the describing the world around them. In one account, a monk described the passage of a comet in terms of its tail being the beard of John the Baptists or the red color of a rose signifying the blood of Christ. The Enlightenment brought rationality and objectivism into the manner in which many people of that era described the sundry events of the universe. However, it appears that much older ways of reasoning have not died out completely.

E.C., Ph.D. - Thursday, 07/08/99, 9:44:05pm (#4342 of 4342)

benz zakar 7/8/99 9:00pm "Natural phenomena do not have a religious significance. It is merely an observer's interpretation of the phenomena which yields a religious connotation". E.C.,Phd

Who is talking about natural phenomenon or observance ..when you are yourself at one moment assembling photomultipliers overseas,next moment you are before Senators,MPs in parliament pointing out their errors (veriable at Library). Recently,I gave them IMF swindling ....They in turn doing something against me awful for no reason at all (following my replica ) & "winners & Losers cult" of Sheik Bush ....as God ... terrorising me one & only..vs Govt of Canada,USA.G7,India ,Japan etc.leaving behind trail of crime .in 1991 ,I was forced to work 55 hrs nonstop inhaling deadly poison.Then during 1991-1999 I was denied access to anything ..including insurance ,benefits,banks,homes,car until I had lost entire estate,asset. My son was at a prestigious univ ...

The ufo Noctilucent I saw was in presence of crowd next door to Mother Thresas HQ, as start of my journey to the West & the World ( in custom designed locations)

Benz Zakar

Hmmm.. Didn't I mention this later in the message? Sorry if I left it out.

Could you move for a mistrial under those circumstances?

Can you also demand he either appear in court, or have him removed from codefendant status?

Speaking of which, I'm headed for the beach this weekend and promised wife I'd help clean beforehand!

Yes, I seem to recall that's the one. Did not hear of the reasons behind the bursts, though. Thank you.

Spacetime is a field, with both wave and particulate behavior. To date, all such constructs have proven to have quantum aspects.

That, when combined with SR's errant data at higher relativistic velocities as well as lower velocities, but long times (Explorer's exodus velocities from our Solar System, for example), and recent findings that our universe is expanding at an increasing, not decreasing, rate, one has no choice but to conclude some serious errors exist in the current model.

Does Autodynamics answer all these questions? No. Just some of them.

Two problems: There's already plenty of dust, even at these altitudes (~40 mi), hence pitting on the SR-71's windscreen which does not occur until it reaches about M2+; high heat associated with entry of VW-sized rock into atmosphere precludes condensation. That jet exhaust condenses is due to entry of water vapor in the exhaust freezing upon contact with the cold air, not condensing around a particle.

Particles help condensation, but they're not absolutely required. Experiment: Supercool purified distilled water to 28 deg F in a polycarbonate container. It does not freeze. Next, rap the side of the container with a stick. Instant ice-cube (mush, actually). Localized energy of shock (sound waves) provides enough energy to begin first crystallization. Remainder merely tags along.

Dave Resnick - Friday, 07/09/99, 6:42:46am (#4344 of 4345) "Joy Busey 7/8/99 11:56am

God has been "named" as one of the non-party co-defendants ".The nearest I can think is as co -plaintiff .Because I was plaintiff in person . Money was demanded from Univ again & again yr after yr you failed at 2.98 should be 3.00.While fellow students still receiving student loan at $65,000 ,his loan was cutoff at $3000..Infact , the needle turning 180 degree phenomenon started at Mother Theresa H/Q , it seems as if it is complete..Don't blame me..I am the one who is taking battering,beatings ...for someone elses' problem.Don't forget to ask more Benz Zakar

I think I need editing help ,it is so many..

The bible of Harvards,Preston,...Vatican.. ( while I was denied hearing even by ethnics..,press TV ,religious leaders ,courts)over 25 yrs seems interesting Take a peek..

El ..is Allah ,a lesser god than Baal .El had sex with 2 women Ashera & Anath giving birth to Dawn and dusk.. Alahu..king of heaven until 9 Amma ... fertilising egg giving birth to cosmos Amon..one of eight forces of Chaos, greek might earth mountain Atum(Atom) ..osiris ,.. Faro (Pharoah) created sky with spirit Gu -mawa & lisa ,iron steel,reproduced food..

These came along with addendum..Dead Sea Scrolls..one major findings a week ..Sudbury mines..Meteorite,Candu reactor ,Neutrinos project of AECL ........... Jesus coin...for starving..food for religion or Ethnic cleansings or conversion back to oiginal .. (worldwide)..Dinasaur findings......fantasias.. mixed in muddy water real or fake !

The only reversible way is to look into ..180 deg needle ..mentioned ..step by step.. Mother Thresas H/Q area..vs my Kali Ma ..replica .verify users password..... News videos ..remove ...poisonous publications.. .I gave lead on everything within 10 CNN posts .. I want to go back to work..

Benz Zakar

benz zakar - Friday, 07/09/99, 10:34:37am (#4347 of 4347)

I think I need editing help ,it is so many..

Yes you do. Your statements are fragementary and one sentence does not lead to the next. I have no idea what you are trying to say. Try one complete thought per paragraph.

You know, I find law a whole lot sillier than either science or religion, since it has the tendency to pretend that it is both at the same time. The trial judge may allow or disallow anything he/she likes. The fun starts at appeal. Hopefully the 3-judge panel will rule the "Miracle Defense" completely improper.

Far as I’ve been able to tell, there are significant holes in all the models in current circulation. The Standard Model’s holes are well known. Autodynamics considers spacetime to be one thing rather than separate parameters (space/geometry and time), and I think this is a hole. Topological Geometrodynamics defines time as geometry AND quanta at the same time, also neglecting the necessary "extra" relativity implied if time is quantum. I am not qualified to rule on any of them, so it’s just a matter of personal aesthetics.

Have fun at the beach! §:o)

It is very difficult to understand what you are saying, Benz. This may be a result of how the language you are using is structured, which does not lend itself to the translation software in your computer.

If I am misunderstanding you, I am sorry. In the translations we are receiving on this end, it sometimes seems as if you are confusing yourself with God.

Do you believe you are God?

Assuming that the bolide has detonated high in the atmosphere, it would take some time for the resultant particulates to cool sufficiently for condensation to occur. Of course the condensates would be in the form of ice or supercooled liquid water.

This is certainly true but the introduction of additional aerosols from the explosion should induce further condensation than would otherwise be realized with the impact of current levels of high altitude dust and gravity waves.

A question for you, E.C. This bolide did not make it past the upper levels of the atmosphere, even though much smaller objects have made it all the way to earth. You mentioned previously the difference between rock and metal as maybe having something to do with it exploding well before impact. Would this be the result of enclosed water (previously ice in the comet) flashing to steam or separating into hydrogen/oxygen in explosive amounts?

Wonder if any fragments have been recovered that would establish whether or not there was water content...

From the "Religion Today" board -

Leszek, I wondered what was distracting you lately, and am so sorry to hear of your loss. You have graciously accepted the thoughts and prayers of the many friends you have made here in the Community. Please accept mine as well. §:o(

Joy Busey - Friday, 07/09/99, 10:56:35am (#4350 of 4353) "benz zakar 7/9/99 8:37am Do you believe you are God?"

Joy, No ! I had analysed before The God ,the Satan .. I was tricked to quit Titan Products ...Lab , in the bible of Harvard .. mentioned in #4347 ,Kronos Greek for Titan product as son gaia mother earth and uronos skyfather..someone tricked son gaia ( urdu ,one who is gone..)Now I see link between Roslin Institute (cloning),sea food and Pharma research registration ...linking terror against me. Few months ago ,I was pushed before running bus.My right knee crushed into pieces (beyond repair).The major authorities ,religious rep and agencies remarked ..let God help him alone ,with gangarene and make him one legged BENZ.My Canadian Surgeon said ; "The EU doctors performed miracle ,virtually glued it back like original with seven metal pieces still inside ...there is God ".Indeed ..I have given proof of the God.. I wrote for earthy service ,earthly Job ...bank will not accept Godly cheque in heavenly language (which one)?The EU doctor told me BENZ ,come back to me ..I will remove metal pieces and you will be as good as new ..Who is God? One thing is sure I had been implanted in custom designed locations long before Satan gave the spin to the World past 25 yrs with the bible ..scroll or what have you. I had to decide always ..am I following God or the Satan ? At times I won ... at times I slipped ... It is fascinating finding worth Nobel Prize ! Benz Zakar

I thank you for the answer to my question, Benz. It is hard to separate the thoughts that keep running together in your posts. I think the problem may be that when you begin a sentence to speak about yourself ("I"), your software is not separating the "I" from what you are saying about God.

Try this - Make 1 short sentence/thought about yourself (Benz). Return twice to separate paragraph, then make 1 short sentence about God that relates to your situation. Perhaps your translations will come in clearer this way.

"Few months ago ,I was pushed before running bus.My right knee crushed into pieces (beyond repair).The major authorities ,religious rep and agencies remarked ..let God help him alone ,with gangarene and make him one legged BENZ."

It sounds like you know what I am talking about in the case of my son. I hope you are getting good care from doctors now.

When you used the word "pushed," does this mean someone has harmed you deliberately?

Joy Busey - Friday, 07/09/99, 1:34:39pm (#4355 of 4355) "benz zakar 7/9/99 1:14pm When you used the word "pushed," does this mean someone has harmed you deliberately?" Yes ..nonstop past 25 yrs as if ...one vs rest breaking entire moral,ethics ,Human Rights code... at highest level of law breaking ..from all agencies...yet some apellant court Judges were fighting for me helplessly in this corrupt soceity ..while presidents/prime minsters/oil sheiks /Dow Jones/Bre-X/Milosevic ..are tied up in the "Ties of Blood" .

One Attorney -Solicitors-Barrister with 40 yrs experienced remarked:Benz , fascinating - I was before many of your presentation.Today ,the 3 judges reviewing your judicial review kept us waiting for 10 corporate litigations until 3 pm making 15-20 attorneys listen to you since 10 am.You shouted back with full force without knowing that one them was the God of the judges.No one could dare raise voice .You handled him even better with BENZ ,Q.C (...mfg Inc.) , three opposing lawyers with Top Law firm had two Q.C.- M T 500 lawyers Lawfirm... They were Queen's Counsels ,I was Quality Control mfg ..guy. .. Judges' "our friend BENZ Q.C". Benz Zakar

Gosh, to read this board one might think that cosmologists are pushing special relativity as the be all and end all of physics (and actively conspiring to supress any alternatives), and that there is some kind of debate going about whether neutrinos exist. Neither of these are true. Everyone knows that special, even general relativity and the standard model do not explain everything. That's why they're still working on it. Neutrinos were first discovered in the 50's, and since then several detectors have come up with many, many events (not just one last year). Furthermore, their existence was postulated not as a fix for special relativity, but to explain missing energy in beta decay. It was and is a quite reasonable postulate, based on conservation of energy.

Is there anything worthwhile in autodynamics? I doubt it, but I suppose stranger things have happened. But even if any of it is eventually incorporated into mainstream physics, I doubt it will result in the end of anyone's career.

Greetings, David Keavney. Actually, reading this board lately is an exercise in frustration for some of us! §:o)

The neutrino "debate" is nothing, really. Just some speculation about the subject of conservation, holey theories, and general what-not. A little discussion of some newer theories - including autodynamics - has been fun, since I was unfamiliar with it. The TGD consciousness model caught my attention awhile back, relating to theoretical 3-tiered timespace and a "massless monopole" that tunnels through. Basically related to Artificial Intelligence logic tree models rather than physical reality.

I think we are laying a framework for discussion of how to account for Second Law violations. What it all "means" is pretty much up for grabs too. My ulterior motive is to establish a speculatory underpinning (sans elegant mathematics for purposes of this board) for separate factors of relativity inherant if time/gravity turn out to be field-based symmetries.

Having come from the "old school," I haven’t given up on Relativity or QM just yet. I simply am unwilling to assign anomalous data to the ubiquitous neutrino that I believe to be manifestations of the as-yet unfactored factors instead. Feel free to jump right in wherever you like, as it’s all just brain-streching exercises!

David Keavney - Friday, 07/09/99, 3:34:46pm (#4357 of 4357) "Gosh, to read this board one might think that cosmologists are pushing special relativity .."

Joy Busey - Friday, 07/09/99, 4:15:04pm (#4358 of 4358)

"David Keavney 7/9/99 3:34pm

The TGD consciousness model caught my attention awhile back, relating to theoretical 3-tiered timespace and a "massless monopole" that tunnels through ...".

David & Joy I wrote before court presentations ,car windshields were smashed ..But this time what the 3 judges said to them..in 1991 I was made to work 55 hrs, access to everything denied..1991-1999 for them ...But I survived ... This board is science & religion ,you are asking me questions and I am merely trying to reply back.. and not for any other reason..

SPACE - TIME -TRAVEL is the GOD Phenomenon linked with the Golden DOME of the Rock (Jerusalem) . The reason AlAQsa is holy , because of space-time -travel experience of a Prophet .As the story goes he was brought there, taken to Jesus ,Moses to Abraham ..to.. the GOD in a time travel vehicle ..where he saw his grand children killed (in advance). He was also given various tehnologies and given grand tours ...and then brought back to his bed .The witness who saw this said : "he was taken and brought back so fast.. that the door chain which had started shaking at departure was still moving like pendulum when brought back ".I am assuming ,that Einstein being a Jew must have read about AlAQSA GOLEN DOME story of the Jesrusalem long before he wrote his "Theory of Relativity" in mathematical formulation format.. Possible ? impossible? ... Benz Zakar

I certainly hope so!

Could this be God's way of confusing the brilliant?

We will, even if the weather moves in. Camping in the rain...

Yet the cloud was seen and photographed immediately after the explosion!

Take a rock, fire it at a cliff at about four-hundred knots, and you obtain the same kind of cloud as you would firing a 45,000 mph meteor at Earth's atmosphere.

It simply vaporized, probably as a result of steam-induced explosion catapulting the fragments over a frontal area wide enough for their immediate disintegration.

Such as the possibility of the instantaneous manifestation of matter in an expanding universe whose rate is increasing, perhaps as a result of certain constants not being so constant. The result is that the amount (by mole) of matter is increasing, whereas the net mass remains the same.

Then again, this is just a theory...

Sounds like plausible background material for Revelation's account of the Antichrist, who will rise as a world leader on the basis of mirculous signs and wonders...

Hi Dave. Mind if I argue that it is actually a hypothesis instead of a theory. A theory requires hard evidence which you appear not to have in that particular case.

But a hypothesis is merely an assumption, which, by the way, would appear to be a reasonable discription for most of the things you and I say.

It seems to me that most people assume a great deal and we collectively tend not to question most of the assumptions that we and others make. Is that necessary, or desirable? Also, is someone who questions those assumptions out of turn rightly an outcast?

Dave Resnick - Saturday, 07/10/99, 2:44:28am (#4361 of 4363)

"benz zakar 7/9/99 4:46pm space-time -travel experience of a Prophet... ...He was also given various tehnologies and given grand tours... Sounds like plausible background material for Revelation's account of the Antichrist, who will rise as a world leader on the basis of mirculous signs and wonders..."

Dave, your comment of antichrist rise is right ... with alternative life style promoters...fantasias..This situation described by you seems to be inforce since 1973 . I wrote to Jesus #4 HH Mirza Ahmed ."One Jesus son of Mary is enough .One Jesus son of Ahmed (1907) is too many or was he the expected Jesus ..?" ..with current Milosevic..blood/organ biz chief .. Cloning sales or organ / blood with HIV sales....Few days ago,it was announced that USA alone needs 63,000 major organs right now,Organ on demands is OK .Family can sell organ to raise $1-5K for basic funeral.Then it was a TV clip showing a muslim funeral ready to be set alight in hindu style pyre in Benares Ghat(with one ghostly helper) and a King Fahd head dress young man 's finding the largest dinasaur as shown either in CNN or CBC clip.If I am subjected to terror by the states,agencies,ethnic TV,spy agencies ,govt of Canada to G7 to India who did not allow me to have anyincome during 1991-1999 , it is indeed very scary for me..since they do not want to give me anything ..including return of old friends and relatives and colleaques ..insisting as God they have to start new lifestyle ,erase religion ,with UN ..certifiers of Oil ownership ,Tomahawk missiles launching ..missiles ,antimissile testing even in NewZealand Fantasias .President Clinton with Hillary barely escaped with 7 republican votes short .Then I almost lost a leg if a group of EU doctors had not saved it...

The experience of relativity of the prophet in Jerusalem is directly related to the technical discussion at hand....Nacreo

continued

....Nacreo with neutrinos and technology of NLC and NC phenomenon ,ufo sighting of my own ...

Benz Zakar

Thanks for friendly advice and allowing me to participate...I have a link now with Cloning Research,Pharma Research ,super glue research,UK MFF..Roslin..and all antichrist activities of the christian .."for greed ..a few dollar more" and state terrorism,finance to Salman Rushdie.non-income drive to me since 1973.I should not have disclosed some inventions ,from glue ...to everything and should not have told my KaliMa "don't die upon me at the moment I don't have even $1-5k for funeral expenses even for me.." in 1975. Re-evaluate benz zakar - Thursday, 07/08/99, 12:07:24am

(#4317 ) + "Sudbury Mine turned above..neutrinos & candu plants,meteorite plants of AECL with branch in Kyrghistan and Israel Military chief declaring in cris -cross, we will wipe out Iran Clinton I am including new recruits in NATO and bombing arsenals .. .. Osama ,a fugutive ,while in the name of OSAMA ,terrorists ..the big name "winners & Losers "cult bombing own US embassies ,create fantasias," it will be fun if CNN can traced past videos as shown above. starting with Haj pilgrims getting killed with phosphorous or herb water sprinkling to create stampede and CNN zeroing in ..with 100% accuracy and check out company registrations ..linking to antichrist cloning.. Benz Zakar

Benz - We might also introduce Ezekiel, Daniel or the Apostle John, whose visions are recorded in the Bible. We could relate Genesis I directly to the order and mechanism of creation as well. The problem with doing so is that religious texts deal with spiritual matters, not science.

Spirituality is a product of human psychology. It comes from inside of ourselves. By the time it is projected outside of ourselves into the world, it has become religion, and religion is something political. It is subject to corruption just like government.

The corruption and evils of politics are not new. Government is about power. Religion is also about power. Christians have exercised too much power, as Islam has exercised too much power. Rome before Christ and before Mohammed exercised too much power in the name of its many gods too. I do not believe God should be in government. Corruption causes too much bloodshed.

That is, in my opinion, one of the best reasoned posts I have read in some time, Joy. I enjoyed it a "bunch." (Use of such language is my right as an Okie :-)

But what do you say to the person who believes that religion (at least, their own particular brand of religion) is a force for good and that involvement of their religion in goverment may tend to lead governments in the path of the right.

Is it really the case, necessarily, that politics must corrupt religion? Is it not possible that religion may, in some cases, elevate politics?

Also, does religion corrupt politics? And does politics elevate religion?

Cliff,

Good people are attracted to religion (persons of like belief). Their beliefs may have an indirect impact on politics. But, the converse is not valid. Religion imposed through politics does not create good people.

TOM

Yes, Tom, I agree with that, but it is beside the point. The question I asked was not whether religion against one's will could create good people, it was whether religion might cause governments to adopt good policies for all people, religious or not.

What is your opinion on that?

It is possible that religious convictions can elevate the politician him/herself. The danger is the dangers of power, which exist no matter what we try to do to counteract it. The adage is old because it fits - power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. In my personal view, Pride is the source, and it cannot be erased.

Forces of good, with religious overtones such as Ghandi or Martin Luther King, can effect governments for the better. If Ghandi or MLK had been given the reins of government to wield, their original message would inevitably become corrupted.

It’s that "Suffering Servant" thing. It exists in time only to suffer and die in time. The nature of what it represents.

Does anyone have any examples from history where religion has elevated the prevailing political system? There may be rulers or leaders who are better at their job because of their faith, but I can't think of any theocracy that ever existed that I would want to live under.

I have to throw my two cents in, here. This is true for all religions, which involve man reaching to God. It is not true, however, for Christianity, which is God reaching down to man.

In all of history there has never been a single individual who met all aspects of prophecy and sparked such a following as Jesus Christ. Many imitations, but only one Saviour.

Corruption exists regardless of religious involvement. At least some of those who are religious are not corrupt. The same cannot be said about the irrelegious.

Excellent point.

In my own view, as well as that of the Bible, the source of our knowledge of the Christian faith, sin is the source, pride is but one of many symptoms, and yes, both can be erased.

Tons. America comes to mind. For more information on the Christian Heritage of the United States, written in the Founding Fathers' own hands, go here:

http://user.mc.net/dougp/a/heritage.html

Nor can I. Fortunately, we live in a representative democracy, also known as a republic, not a theocracy.

However, if our government, of, for, and by the people, reflected the predominantly Christian set of beliefs of its members, many would argue that such is a bad thing.

I believe that it is a good thing!

That's all very well, but the point of the discussion is that science provides a predictive paradigm for describing natural phenomena. Any scientific assertion can be tested and found to be either untrue, or potentially true (as nothing can be proven absolutely, outside propositions in logic and mathematics).

Religion, on the other hand, is incapable of any proof. You can propose God, Yaweh, Jehovah as the creator of everything; I can propose Melvin the Purple Unicorn. We can both prescribe the religious observances pleasing to these entities and necessary for our survival in the afterlife. None of them can be proven to any reasonable person's satisfaction.

While science can't answer the questions you seek, as a religious believer, you can't find the answer in religion either. You may think you do, but since you can't prove it, it becomes one opinion among many.

That's why I place my faith in science. Not because it answers all possible questions, it doesn't. But because when it does answer a question, I have the means of checking the validity of the answer. I do not have any such means of checking the validity of religious answers to any questions.

No, it wasn't. The discussion in which I was engaged, and you so rudely interrupted, was my answering a simple question posed to me by another member of this board.

Scroll up and re-read it.

Furthermore, my post was in direct line with CNN's stated question for the board, namely, "What are the roles that science and religion should play in our world today?"

Scroll up and re-read that one two.

Earlier this year you persisted in lying to the extent of making numerous false and malicious posts on numerous boards.

Are you planning to continue your previous trend, or have you decided to approach the discussion in a mature manner?

I hope it's the latter. However, your first post to this board clearly indicates it's the former.

Jesus rose from the dead, was witnessed by more than 500 people, most of whom were not devoted followers. Christians later risked their lives for centuries against people such as you who wielded enough power to put them to death.

Finally, the Bible's historical accuracy has been established countless times through archeological evidence.

There's far more proof that Christianity is true than there are for most scientific theories commonly taught in schools today as fact.

As a scientist, I dare say your faith is in the wrong place.

Myself: Scroll up and re-read that one two.

yes, spelling... should be "too."

When has Leszek ever lied about anything, Dave? I may not agree with everything he says or does, but I have never observed even the slightest tendency in Leszek to deceive. In that sense, he is a "straight arrow." If you are going to call him a liar, I think you need to provide a couple of examples of his dishonesty, if you can. Personally, I don't think you can.

Not true, Chief--on either count. It can be said with some accuracy that it was written that up to 500 people witnessed the resurrection. But there is no evidence that the statement as recorded was true. There are no signed statements, no direct testimony. Heck, Joseph Smith had signed statements sworn to by real people about the golden tablets* from which he "translated" the Book of Mormon. Do you believe those signed statements? If not, why not?

With respect to your second statement, Dave, I am persuaded that it has been Christians, generally, who have held the power and have been the scourge of people like Leszek.

Personally, I think you ought to give a little consideration for the truth.

I think it was "golden tablets" from which Joseph Smith was supposed to have made his translations, but I am not certain and I can not immediately find my copy of the Book of Mormon to make sure.

Dave Resnick ..

I think the Catholic’s have it right when they state that pride is the number one sin. Certainly that is what I find whenever I examine myself with any degree of honesty. And IMHO, the Bible doesn’t promise us that we can be free of sin this side of Heaven. But more to the point, those who have no faith, when they hear such remarks, tend to think that we Christians are stating that we are superior to others. It’s the same thing here…

You see I would completely disagree with that statement. Some of the most lovely, honourable, honest and moral people I know, are not people of faith. Whereas I know many who call themselves Christian, but who show none of the ‘fruits’ that such a label should bring.

Leszek .. now this made me think ..

Are you saying that all scientific thought is only ‘potentially’ true? Can you not give me one example that is not 'logic or mathematical' that is absolutely TRUE?

Isn’t that a somewhat dogmatic statement in comparison?

Faith? In view of the above, and until further clarification, I’ll have to assume that there is in fact no empirical reason for having faith in science.

I beg to differ, until you can come up with a ‘reasonable’ explanation for Jesus, who He is and why He taught as He did, why He made the claims He did .. then I feel I do have ‘reasonable’ grounds for believing as I do.

I see you haven't changed an iota :( Rather than discuss ideas you don't like, you resort to insult. That's your problem, and I won't make it mine by responding in kind.

I was talking about formal proofs, which are only possible in formal logical systems. Now, there are observations that are true - your exploding bolide (wish I could have seen that!) is one example. Other observations that are repeatable are also true... I can perform an experiment with the reasonable expectation that as long as I reproduce the conditions, I will get the same answer each time within experimental error.

What I can't prove absolutely in science is the theory I concoct to explain the observation, and the reason for this is I can't ever logically exclude all alternative explanations. In a crude example, the exploding bolide might have been a stray meteor deflected from its normal orbit, or it might have been a Martian attack, or something else altogether :)

Theories have to be disproven one by one, and we assume that whatever is left is "true" to some extent, but we can only assign some probability that it may be true. There might always be a better explanation we just didn't think of.

Rosemary (cont.)

Well, do you have faith that when you turn on your tv you'll get sound and a picture, all other things being equal? :)

Science is empirical. The reason I can have faith in science is because I can test its predictions - the better the quality of prediction, the more faith I can have in the probable accuracy of a theory. I can't test religious predictions in the same way, and in fact, I can't think how to test them at all, except when religion makes predictions about the natural world that I can test scientifically.

There are also senses in which religion can be said to be true - for example, if it provides you with a framework in which to live a good and productive life. But there are many such, and I have no razor with which to shave them to see if one is any "truer" than another - that's all I meant by that.

Rosemary Behan - Sunday, 07/11/99, 7:11:15am (#4381 of 4381) "Leszek .. now this made me think .. .. Religion, on the other hand, is incapable of any proof..."

Rosemary, I tried to discuss the link between Einstein Theory of Relativity and the relativity experience of the prophet in Jerusalem and then ongoing discussion NLC, NC,Neutrinos , the technology how it works ( to research technology given to me by religion".No income drive to me is linked .The TV clip showing my funeral with coplaintiff or a devil leaning over my body (apparently WaltDisney studio made) is also linked with Hillary Clinton's statement "Don't ask me anymore how my employment time sheets ( relatred to corporate ..income matters) ..papers were removed when I was employed and brought back later at $40m Clinton Trial.." with Clinton's or his rep's statement last week directed directly against me ...almost exactly what I had told my KaliMa in 1975 (which in turn was due to around 1973 frameup and Cloning Lab origin.."

.I told Kali Ma "I don't have even $1-5k for funeral expenses even for me.." verify what US Govt said just before Hillary clinton's Al Aqsa -Jerusalem exclusively giving to Israel to stay in power...

In fact, Clinton reaped the fruit of President Reagon's work ,B Mulroney's collusion which made USA rich making world forget that $4 Trillion loan is unpaid as mentioned by Billionaire Ross Perot who was taunting both Clinton and Bush in TV Debate.

NAFTA Mulroney was no-body in 1973 when I was framed .Suddenly he represented them...they in turn made him a P/M overnight ...all links and verifiable

US Public with 55-75% approving Bill Clinton's Bombing everywhere killing ..mixing purity & impurity...real..addendum..helping ..non-helping remains to be evaluated.

In wealth cultism...members usually say "we want our milk and honey now in this W

I should probably also clarify that I'm not one of those atheists who asserts that religious belief or various theologies are irrational or unreasonable, far from it. Many are very sophisticated products, reasonably and logically argued, but products of what? My best guess is that they are products of the human creative imagination. Your best guess is obviously different, but I think we can probably agree that we are guessing :)

Even the best and most watertight logic avails us little if the premises of the argument are false, and the underlying issue is what degree of confidence we can place in the supporting premises of competing theologies and philosophies.

We're a little like shipwrecked sailors - or perhaps the children of shipwrecked sailors! - taking advantage of whatever oceanic islands that have come our way, and we have to suit ourselves to whatever we find. My philosophical island may be larger, smaller, with more or fewer resources than yours, but it's the one I have to adapt to. We may even each think that our particular island is all the world, and be astounded at the idea that anyone could even think of living anywhere else. But there it is. They do, and we do :)

continued...

World..no matter how many you have to kill...It is not Milosevic.. killing .. NATO Bombing ..for oil...it is the merciless God who is killing.... That is the Dough Johns' Index ,all world Dow Jones ...stocks and Bonds index .Is it my problem? I told Joy Busey ,I am not God...why they are giving me the beatings....

" Re-evaluate benz zakar - Thursday, 07/08/99, 12:07:24am (#4317 ) + "Sudbury Mine turned above..neutrinos & candu plants,meteorite plants of AECL with branch in Kyrghistan and Israel Military chief declaring in israeli General's cris -cross( may be coming soon a real multi-billion dollar spectacular Walt Disney Fantasias with digital glowing Dead Sea Scroll 's Cross with custom made Jesus or MONK in orange rope.AS Israel general had said "we will wipe out Iran" , and Clinton had said " And I am including new recruits in NATO and bombing arsenals ".. " Why MONK in Orange Robe ?...the prophecy said ..Jesus will return in disguise or some thing in Orange robe...Is it via Buddhist ,non buddhists nations of Orange Robe locations .. or a phenomenon ? See .. many non christians TV Evangelists in Orange Robed (Sai BABA ..).Tibet's Baby Monk America Born in training .. Yoga monks ..in Orange robe in the market..

Rosemay said :"That's why I place my faith in science. Not because it answers all possible questions, .... But because when it does answer a question, I have the means of checking the validity of the answer."

vs

Benz said : " I am asking you to check validity of the God ,the religion, frameup of major massacare carried out in advance longbefore 1973 .I was placed against them since 1961 ..Oh No! since Kindergarten when I fooled even my KaliMa ... I have said it in just 15 days of CNN Posting .Check TV CNN -CBC clip or let me help you find it ... and re-evaluate what I said before..Few days ago,it was announced that USA alone needs 63,000 major

We get into circular thinking when we try to separate "up" and "down" in the subject of spirituality. It’s the semantics of viewpoint, whether the object of worship has been projected outside the psyche, or remains internal. It still boils down to a demonstrable aspect of human psychology, part of our hardwiring. This, I believe, may someday offer the best evidence of God’s actual existence.

I like Rosemary’s answer to the subject of sin vs. pride, and will also agree that the flaw resides in human nature and cannot be erased while we live on earth. Erased on the chalkboard in heaven maybe, but some of the most religious people are also some of the most prideful.

Because I see original sin as Pride (the desire to be "like unto God"), most other sins descend from there in one way or another. I agree wholeheartedly that corruption exists regardless of religion. That’s why I believe strongly that theocratic government is a bad thing. Governments will wage war and oppress populations without religious reason, so why should religions wish to drag their deity down to that level?

If religion doesn’t "cure" or "cause" corruption, how can it be said that there is any difference in the corruption of religious vs. non-religious persons?

This depends entirely on which specifically Christian beliefs are reflected by government. We have secular laws against things like murder, rape, theft, assault, fraud, and a million other possible "sins" of humanity which have proven detrimental to society and civilization. This is basic societal order, not religion. It can, however, be said to reflect the moral precepts of Judeo-Christian heritage (and quite a number of other spiritual systems as well).

When government starts trying to reflect specific religion in its laws, we get things like enforced school prayer (which existed when I was a child, and resulted in a classroom of Jewish children with only one Christian - me - being led in a prayer to Jesus Christ every day). I think this is very wrong. We could legislate mandatory church attendance, or baptism or confession or...

Which specifically Christian - or specifically Freemasonic - beliefs would you legislate?

This depends entirely on which specifically Christian beliefs are reflected by government. We have secular laws against things like murder, rape, theft, assault, fraud, and a million other possible "sins" of humanity which have proven detrimental to society and civilization. This is basic societal order, not religion. It can, however, be said to reflect the moral precepts of Judeo-Christian heritage (and quite a number of other spiritual systems as well).

When government starts trying to reflect specific religion in its laws, we get things like enforced school prayer (which existed when I was a child, and resulted in a classroom of Jewish children with only one Christian - me - being led in a prayer to Jesus Christ every day). I think this is very wrong. We could legislate mandatory church attendance, or baptism or confession or...

Which specifically Christian - or specifically Freemasonic - beliefs would you legislate?

continued..

63,000 major organs right now,Organ on demands is OK .Family can sell organ to raise $1-5K for basic funeral.Then it was a TV clip showing a muslim funeral ready to be set alight in hindu style pyre in Benares Ghat(with one ghostly helper) and a King Fahd head dress young man 's finding the largest dinasaur as shown either in CNN or CBC clip.If I am subjected to terror by the states,agencies,ethnic TV,spy agencies ,govt of Canada to G7 to India who did not allow me to have any income during 1991-1999 ,.. it is indeed very scary for me......since they do not want to give me anything ..including return of old friends and relatives and colleaques ..insisting as God they have to start new lifestyle ,erase religion ,with UN ..certifiers of Oil ownership , missiles launching ..missiles -antimissile collision testing /aerosol exploding ...even in NewZealand Fantasias .President Clinton with Hillary barely escaped with 7 republican votes short .Then I almost lost a leg if a group of EU doctors had not saved it... " .

The scariest part is the US public approving clinton economy by bombing .For me it is like saying.."we want our milk and honey now in this world /no matter how Clinton and Hillary gets it.." .I reminded 180 degree needle turning phenomenon complete. hundreds of nillions of muslims are unlike to let Israel -Nato Kill kill Palestinians ..... Russia.NATO-India Kill Kashmiris.. anymore. One fine morning you may wake up stranded at home millions of people dead but entire oilfields on fire.. you still want God did it not Hillary Clinton!

Benz Zakar

I fail to see any purpose in calling people names. Leszek is sometimes frustrating, but has never descended to greater-than-rude as you have. Far as I can tell, his post to you was perfectly sensible whether you agree with his statements or not. I have never known Leszek to be dishonest.

Perhaps you should do a little work on your humility factor, one of those specifically Christ-like virtues we try to emulate, and see if that helps keep your blood pressure down.

Theology does indeed proceed from the human imagination through human logic to human justifications. I think it arises from something else, though. You are right that this cannot be proven empirically, but neither can a lot of scientific observations and theories. In particle physics, for instance, nobody’s ever actually seen a neutron, but we have a theory of neutrons and natural decay which allows us to smash atoms at will. Nobody’s ever seen a quark of any variety either. What they interpret to be quarks are ghosts - tracks on a photographic plate long after the postulated quark has ceased to exist in this timespace, if it ever existed in this timespace at all.

There is no empirical proof of religious/spiritual experience either. This is the tricky part of my son’s miracle. The miracle exists and can be shown to defy previously known "rules." What cannot be empirically proved is the personal witness of cause. Scientifically (medically) it’s just more anomalous data, yet another violation of supposedly absolute laws of nature. To be filed and forgotten.

Theologically, however, the presence of angels (witnessed by several people) CAN be judged. This is because theology does not automatically reject spiritual reality. Psychologically, this aspect of human nature is demonstrable, thus rationally does exist. Everything theological proceeds outward from there, just as scientific theory and mathematics proceed from human rationality and observation.

It is clear that you have suffered at the hands of both governments and religions, Benz. That is why I don’t understand why you seem to think "The God" is the answer for these evils. Most governments in the world are not theocracies, other than the Islamic theocracies. It is clear that the Islamic theocracies have not improved the health, longevity or standard of living for their citizens, so AS government, they do a poor job.

The EU and America, while very powerful and quite fearsome, are not bound by any gods but their own greed and thirst for power. If they were theocracies, they would be as repressive as any other. We could argue that one is really no better than the other, but the evil in both forms of government is not the fault of God. It is the fault of men who hold the reins of power.

Until and unless God cares to make Himself present in this timespace (believably) for all of us at the same time and in the same way, divisions between human governments and human religions will remain. God has nothing to do with it.

This is true. None of has ever seen or will ever see an atom with our bare eyes, but we still know that we can move individual atoms with "molecular forceps" - two laser beams.

As I said, I haven't claimed that religion is necessarily irrational - only people are irrational if they cling to disproven beliefs in the hope that some deus ex machina will come and rescue a theory others have shown to be false. And of course, there's the rub... it is not easy to disprove a hypothesis as one can always add subsidiary hypotheses to support an ailing central hypothesis. Sometimes you just can't get that final nail in the coffin and the corpse keeps struggling to get out :)

I admit to having problems with "spiritual reality". I just don't experience it, and you might as well ask someone who has lived in a landlocked country all his life to imagine the ocean. That's where "scientific reality" is more tractible, because you can make a scientific claim, and I can go test it, and thus share your knowledge directly. With matters of the "spirit", this just ain't so. The number of people who have never seen an angel vastly exceed those who say they have.

Joy (cont.)

I never accuse anyone of lying unless I have good reason to think they have a malicious purpose in misrepresenting the truth, so when someone comes to me and says they've seen an angel, I take them at their word that they have experienced a phenomenon that they interpret as "seeing an angel". But there is no way I can experience the same phenomenon or know the reality of it.

If that makes me "frustrating" (yes, I saw that post before it got elfed away! :) so be it... I cannot say I see what I do not see, or say I believe in entities whose effects I can't measure.

Atoms and angels aren't equivalent epistemologically just because we can't see either one directly. I can see the predictive effects of atomic theory which gives me reason to have faith in it. To be honest, I can't see the effect of angels, or I can find more prosaic explanations - maybe I'm not looking in the right place, or under the right floating rocks! :)

However, you do raise valid points about why we accept certain theories about entities we do not experience directly, but not others, and no doubt subtle prejudices and our personal experiences make that more a subjective decision than an objective one.

I don't. I think pride is a virtue. Arrogance, however, is certainly a most "unholy" attitude. Perhaps you are referring to arrogance.

Yes, I do consider that to be most arrogant.

I disagree. What does pride have to do with greed? It would seem to me that most serious crime (and most significant sin?) derives from greed--and, in my opinion, a lack of pride. Pride is a virtue. We need more of it.

As I said, I haven't claimed that religion is necessarily irrational... - Leszek Rzepecki

All religions are irrational, my old friend.

Their premises are based on this rule of logic that you cannot prove the existence of something that does not exist.

Bernhard

Yeah, I saw it also. Looks like they got my response to that outrage also, I see. Irritating! I thought I had it toned down just enough to get under the line. Guess I was wrong :-)

Howdy, Berhard! Glad to see you here! §:o)

This is your empiricism, and rightly applied. There are a number of psychological factors for me personally and for the others present which could account for a manifestation of an angel which if photographed at the time might have appeared as something quite else (a burst of energy of unknown type, but which emitted photons enough to show up).

Now, because the photograph would be an empirical evidence of some anomaly, unless the event could be re-created for further inquiry it’s just an anomaly which will forever remain unexplained. If you cannot also "see" the angel or test its wavelength, you are right to be wary of the reality of "Angel" even while you might accept the reality of "Anomaly."

I can’t even say with any authority that had you been present in the room that night you would have seen an angel rather than just a burst of light and energy which displaced the air for its duration. I say displaced the air because it actually did - that’s the "whirlwind" effect - and the likely explanation for the severe temperature drop as well.

The above post about what you might have seen had you been present (which might not have fit any description I’ve given of an actual angel) is separate and apart from the fact that if you HAD been present, you’d have heard the angel speak. From what you might have perceived as merely anomalous light and displacement of air, speech would probably remind you of the Burning Bush or something like that.

When having to delete actual insults they tend to take responses as well. A good policy, no doubt. §:o)

Joy, As you said ,both the God and Govt seemed to be giving you nerve wrecking times...Is it ? or as the joke goes..Pundit Nehru in a Commonwealth Prime ministers' dinnerparty was looking greedily..

He saw ..five ministers inserting, a tiny magnificient golden spoon for deserts , in top Jacket pockets behind decorative white handkerchieves .After, the magician p.c.Sircor finished a floor show.He got up and said ,"It is my turn now.....".He put five spoons from the table ,put it ion the side pocket of Nehru jackets. He went to five ministers ..he pulled out 5 disappeard spoons from top jackets pockets of respectable Prime Ministers of major commonwealth countries .He walked out amidst thuderous applauses .

The God wants everyone to have peaceful life (including me),lets make dictionary of thieves with wealth and in organ business.Checkout ,with King Fahd .Is he original or an Italian ? Why did they hijacked me in 1973 and keeping me without income by force described ? No one should get away including Hilary Clinton :" I will give you Jerusalem, in return you give me power of God (Bombing / acquiring wealth for you) my husband knows how to put muslim masses as shield without letting any American pilot getting killed".I think enough is enough with Hilary Clinton repeating Nehru magic.

Benz Zakar

Well, the thinking that goes into a theology might be very rational, and indeed, extremely logical. Jesuits make their reputation on this.

But a castle, however rationally designed, built on sand still has a weak foundation. The division between folk like me and folk like Rosemary is that when I look at the foundation I see sand, when Rosemary looks at the foundation, she sees solid rock.

Now, both Rosemary and I are rational thinkers. So what does that tell you?

I think it tells us that rational thinking does not open every door, or perhaps does not reveal every door, or perhaps it even conceals doors that are there.

To me, rational means a connected chain of thought that isn't unreasonable - a person of good faith can examine it and find it acceptable - not necessarily complete or compelling, but acceptable as an idea. The god theory is a rational idea - simply because it cannot be proven beyond reasonable doubt doesn't make it irrational. To think otherwise would suggest that almost 90% of humanity is irrational, and I for one just do not want to assume that! :)

I usually try to modify my blanket statements about Pride to include the modifier "Overweaning." I think your definition is different than mine. Pride in one’s work done well, pride in one’s children and home, pride enough in one’s self enough to accept personal responsibility in the world. This pride is a good thing, and you are right to say there’s not enough of it.

But let’s take Overweaning Pride (egotism/narcissism) and break it down. Pride in one’s work can grow so overweaning that someone can literally destroy the careers and work of other people to guard one’s own work (good or not). One could actually steal the work of others and claim it to be their own. One could be jealous of another’s wife and children and home, and plot for years to steal these things out from under a rival through seduction, divorce, etc. One could be so jealous of another person that Pride descends into insult, anger, rage, physical abuse and even murder.

Greed is also related to Pride in that greed is the amassing of ever more power, wealth, lovers, etc., all for the personal aggrandizement of the ego. Often at the serious expense of others. Ultimately, Overweaning Pride led (I believe) to the fall of man, the murder of Abel, and to the later requirement for Articles I - IV of the Mosaic Code. Why? Because the Overweaning Pride of humans makes them desire to be "like unto God." If one believes he or she IS a god, it’s hard to place another before themselves.

From my POV, when one sees an example of order and complexity, it is perfectly rational to assume from first principles that there is an intelligent designer - after all, that is our daily experience, it is what we have become accustomed to thinking.

As we have explored the world in ever more detail, we have come to realise that there are highly plausible alternative explanations that require fewer ad hoc assumptions. That doesn't make the original ideas suddenly irrational, it's just that we become open to a wider variety of explanations.

That's the gift science has given us - a tool to analyse the world objectively and examine the limits of pure belief. We have learned that we should place only limited trust in our intuition, as our day-to-day experience is not always appropriate for a deep understanding of reality.

But that doesn't mean our intuitions, based on our experience and evolutionary history, are irrational, it simply means we sometimes apply them inappropriately. That's not irrational, it's just a mistake :)

Great story, Benz! Is it true, or just a joke? I don’t understand the Hillary connection, as I think you are speaking about her involvement in some negotiation I am not familiar with.

Since it was George Bush who carpet bombed Iraq, I’d have to guess this has something to do with either the Israeli-Palestinian situation or Afghanistan. I did not know Hillary was personally involved in either episode.

Dave Resnick wrote,

"At least some of those who are religious are not corrupt. The same cannot be said about the irreligious."

This statement is incredible. Not only is it obviously untrue, it is astonishingly arrogant and closed-minded. I had been aware that the pious carried this attitude about others, but I have seldom seen it so baldly stated. To the point of the discussion, it is a perfect example of why it is appropriate to keep religion out of politics.

Great story, Benz! Is it true, or just a joke? I don’t understand the Hillary connection, as I think you are speaking about her involvement in some negotiation I am not familiar with.

Since it was George Bush who carpet bombed Iraq, I’d have to guess this has something to do with either the India-Pakistan situation or Afghanistan. I did not know Hillary was personally involved in either episode.

Hmmm... That was my fault. Note I'd stopped the "Okay" for Israel-Palestine and changed it to India-Pakistan. Since the screen hadn't changed, I thought I'd caught it. Sorry!

Hey, glad you agree.

I would call that simple greed. Why the torturous "modifier" in order to use the word "pride"? Why not call it what it is: greed.

That is the result of greed, and only greed.

That also.

Where does greed arise, Cliff? Is aggrandizement of the self and the desires of self over all consideration of others not go back to egotism/narcissism?

Modern consumerism didn't invent greed. And an Egyptian peasant could be just as greedy in his own sphere as a Grand Visier.

Probably just semantics, I suppose. Actually, most Christians don't relate everything back to the primary as I have. The Catholics have all sorts of subdivisions for sin, as do the Jews (Moses did come out with a whole lot more than just 10 laws). It just all seems like overweaning pride to me!

And out of science, I think! This is how piety got a bad name, I guess... §:o)

Joy Busey - Sunday, 07/11/99, 3:24:25pm (#4404 of 4409)

"benz zakar 7/11/99 2:55pm I think enough is enough with Hilary Clinton repeating Nehru magic. Great story, Benz! Is it true, or just a joke? "

What I am trying to say is that President Clinton Prime Minister Tony Blair and NATO rushed to help Kosovo immediately after I had criticized them in 10 Downing Street Message or discussion Board early this year.They did a great job .We still have to award them with medals .One TV talks show said .they are not sure who is doing what ...Milosevic and NATO bombings were killing Kosovo civilians .Each accusing other for using them as shields.Let's first award medal of honour to Clinton.Hilary is trying to snatch this medal from her husband Bill Clinton in a rush by offering to give Jerusalem to Israel within last 48 hrs.

Out of no where , few days ago Clinton or US state dept talked about Organ for funeral cost with orchestrated TV clip directed against me.It is a proof..

Since nobody believes in God , and my good friend 85 yr old Mrs Nightingale ..just before dying last year said,"if Jesus walks in right now,the first stab wounds he will receive will be from Pope Paul II,all the priests and church leaders..." In fact, I found that even priests are saying .. "we want our milk, honey ,luxury cars, organs ..in this world.In case ,if we have to go to hell..it is a comfort ..we will be surrounded with big name film actresses..goddesses..prostitutes. oil sheiks, millionaires,gangsters with money ...what do we get in paradise.. poor ...bearded rabbis,Imams ,priests, monks ...we rather be in hell.."

For few years I am giving proofs of bignames involvement to Human Rights Violation Commisioners. I just wrote back why you gave the chief Highest Honour.He was the first crook who had written against me .He holds Phd thesis in human rights violation.I went to news media ,family ,fr

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friens for moral support only ..."ask your God for help".One of them tossed a coin up..when it fell .he said your God does not exists,he could not catch it.." Is it some kind of joke of extreme denial to me (despite court orders )? Any body to help or make positive comment for analysis? Benz Zakar

Since I’ve mentioned what a photograph might have shown had one been taken, I’ll admit I am not necessarily inclined to believe the form of the angel would be apparent. In fact, I expect a photograph would have shown a tall, very upright and well-physiqued 21-year old man, long blonde hair blowing in strong wind and feet firmly planted, with an outstretched arm holding me by the throat with intense seriousness. The anomalies in the photo would be (a) obvious physical health and strength of the subject, (b) evident strong wind in a closed room, and (c) a bright light eminating from the subject.

The condition of the subject? About 4 hours unhooked from machinery and transferred from Intensive care to the private room with what have been described in court as the most serious head trauma injuries ever documented in a live human being. One very hurt, seriously confused, and just semi-conscious young man.

I understand that you have sadly lost someone you loved very much. It’s statistically unlikely that you experienced either a blatant miracle, or got to follow him at the moment of death into "Not-Time." I wish you could have experienced both, my friend, because I surely know how much grief hurts.

I do not know why me and not you. I think it had more to do with my son than with me, to tell the truth. I just happened to be there. Still, God and all His angels didn’t save my son’s life in the end. All he got out of the deal was time, and that time was way too full of blood. I’m the one who has to figure out what it all means in this timespace, if it means anything at all.

Joy, it seems to me that you are slanting the discussion ever so slightly. Greed is simply, "I want," over all consideration of the desires and needs of others. It typically relates not to aggrandizement of self at all. It is simply "I want." It has nothing to do with pride. It has everything to do with greed. (I know this does not fit the oft quoted "Pride goeth before destruction," from Proverbs, but it is the truth in my opinion.

Benz, it seems to me that you have a rather odd sense of cause and effect. Have you ever heard of a thing called a co-incident. It means two things happening that have no relationship whatever. I seriously doubt that Clinton nor Blair were in the least aware of your criticism.