"Scholarship" like this, one can see in High School. It is definitely a cut above what one almost always sees online, and certainly miles above what was seen in the Afrocentric threads, because the people involved here, at the moment, do seem to care about accuracy. Like High School, that's a good place to start, and one can get something out of that stage in one's studies. But, also like High School, if that's where one stops, one may very well be doing oneself a disservice.
Facts by themselves are tedious. What one does with the facts one knows - that's what becomes interesting. At a moment like this, what I would want to see, and probably not get on the Netjer boards, is an attempt to put those facts together into a sort of narrative. Don't just tell me what happened in those moments, pull me into them. Give me a sense of what it would be like to be living them. These people who lived and died weren't tallies in somebody's register, they were flesh and blood like ourselves, and when no effort is made to make them come alive, I would humbly suggest that perhaps one has missed the point.
("Khen", you will see elsewhere; I saw no need to change the other names).
( )
12/4/00 05:03 PM
169.207.233.54
| Cleo and children
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i have a question on Cleopatra there is so many books i have read and find so many different answers. Does anyone know about the children or child of cleopatra or where to find the info? names ,ages, life stuff?
especially Caesarian?
(usual poster)
12/4/00 08:08 PM
63.253.69.38
| Re: Cleo and children new
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Em hotep Deb. I have a few books on Cleo, I will look that up for you (and tell you if I have conflicting information. You know, it's interesting (coming side-note here). There are theories as to other famous "bloodlines" around the world throughout history, but unless I am mistaken, there has not been any attempt to claim that a child of Cleopatra survived and managed to keep an unbroken line all the way to today. With all the mystique about Cleopatra, one would almost have expected that.
On the other hand, with all the other speculations about Egypt's history, it is refreshing to know that some things are more worthy of sense and respect.
Anyway--I will do some checking for you. Get back to you soon unless someone else does first.
Khen
Webmaster, Assistant to NE/SE Imy'Ra IrytenWepwawet
(frequent poster)
12/4/00 10:39 PM
205.188.193.168
| Re: Cleo and children new
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Em hotep, Deb!
I have the following two books which include information about Cleopatra's children:
Chauveau, Michel, Egypt in the Age of Cleopatra: History and Society under the Ptolemies, Cornell University Press, c. 2000 (ISBN 0-8014-3597-8)
Desmond, Alice Curtis, Cleopatra's Children, Dodd, Mead & Co., c. 1971 (ISBN 0-396-06376-4)
According to the book by Desmond, Cleopatra had four children: Caesarion, Julius Caesar's son, and Mark Anthony's children: the twins Cleopatra Selene and Alexander Helios, and Ptolemy Philadelphus. Caesarion and Alexander Helios were both murdered, and then, after Cleopatra's death, little Selene and Ptolemy were dragged behind a chariot in a triumphant procession in Rome. Ptolemy Philadelphus was murdered by orders of King Herods son Antipater. Selene was married to Juba, a prince of Numidia. They ruled what is now Morocco and Algeria. Their tomb is located at Tipaza, Algeria. Selene had two children, Ptolemy and Drusilla, and she died in the year 6 CE. Ptolemy became King of Mauretania but was eventually murdered by orders from Caligula.
A rather sad ending to Cleopatra's descendents
Hope this helps
answer some of your questions.Senebty!
NeferuHethert ("the beauty of HetHert")
Imyt-Set'a HetHert/Sekhmet (Assistant of HetHert/Sekhmet)
( )
12/5/00 08:44 AM
152.163.204.72
| Re: Cleo and children new
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Do you know of the ages of the children when they died and i am confused on the Selene can you clearify that for me? thanks for the info
(frequent poster)
12/6/00 02:14 PM
205.188.200.41
| Re: Cleo and children new
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Em hotep, Deb!
I was at the Klaus Baer Library (the private Egyptology library) at UC Berkeley yesterday and did some more digging on Cleopatra's children. I found the following information in this book:
Bevan, Edwyn R., The House of Ptolemy: A History of Egypt under the Ptolemaic Dynasty, Chicago, Argonaut, Inc., c. 1968.
It states that around the time Cleopatra died, her son by Caesar, Caesarion, was 17. (According to the Desmond book he was born in 47 BCE.) He already had the status of King of Egypt, Ptolemy XIV, since he had been joint ruler with Cleopatra. Before Cleopatra's death, he had been sent with his Greek tutor to Berenice on the Red Sea coast. Octavian sent messengers after them and lured them to Alexandria, where Caesarion was murdered.
Cleopatra's other three children (by Anthony) were sent to Italy. They were raised by Octavia, Mark Anthony's wife. When Selene (full name: Cleopatra Selene, who was, with her twin Alexander Helios, born in 40 BCE) grew up, she was married (in 30 BCE according to Desmond) to the Numidian prince Juba, who had a Greek education. The Romans made him king of Mauretania in 25 BCE, and Selene thereby became Queen of Mauretania from this time. Selene died in 6 CE, so she must have been around 46 at the time. Their son, Ptolemy, succeeded to the throne of Mauretania around 23 CE (I'm assuming after the death of Juba, his father), but was killed by orders of Caligula in 40 CE. The story is that he had worn a purple robe more conspicuous than the Emperor's in the amphitheatre in Rome, and Caligula sent him into exile and had him assasinated on the way.
According to Bevan's book, Alexander Helios and Ptolemy Philadelphus (Cleopatra VII's other two children by Mark Antony--Ptolemy Philadelphus was born in 36 BCE according to Desmond) went with Selene and Juba to Mauretania. There is no record if they had children or what happened to them. According to Tacitus, Drusilla was married to the widowed Antonius Felix, a Greek freedman. Felix was appointed procurator of Judea and was Roman governor there in 56 CE. I don't have any further information at this point. You might want to try to find these books if you are interested in more details about Cleopatra's life and times. I hope this clarifies Selene's role in the story.
Senebty!
NeferuHethert ("the beauty of HetHert")
Imyt-Set'a HetHert/Sekhmet (Assistant of HetHert/Sekhmet)
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