Looking back, this was a hard realization for us to come to, because ... um ... we're sure that there must be a good reason, but we can't seem to think of it right now. No, the sad truth is that reality had been staring us in the face for some time.

Reading about these things second hand, is never like being there to experience them. Logically, one looks, and goes "Antistoicus, you moron, how could you not have seen this sooner". From a detached point of view, with only the facts to work with, that's an easy feeling to have. But there's a time and a setting that is very hard to explain, back before the "clergy" started taking their make-believe credentials so seriously, and the politics began. A time when people still remembered why they came to Paganism. That time left us very quickly, but such was its charm, that its memory was a hard one to let go of. Some of us didn't face the faces, because we just didn't have the heart to, even when all that we would have hard to do, would have been to think about our own words:

"June 30, 2000

Having had some time to gain a little detachment, let us ponder the question of what the future relationship between the Shrine and the Wiccan Community in Chicago will be.

I want to say that it will be a positive one, but I don't honestly know. Promises would be premature.

What concerns me about this incident that we have discussed, aside from the clannish attitudes, is that as simple a thing as the attempt to discuss a simple procedural matter, on a serious level, produced a serious "crisis" when we tried to work with our Wiccan "brethren". Given this, what could we hope for, out of an attempt at a serious philosophical discussion, if these attitudes should become the norm?

I'm reminded of a conversation I had with one of the elders. Once again, somebody was blithely mishmashing elements of various Pagan traditions. I questioned this, pointing out that the various Paleo-Pagan faiths had never been thought of, as all being one religion. The elder immediately dived in, and pointed out that the Romans were constantly equating one foreign god or another with one of their own. That's true, I wanted to point out, but irrelevant. People today constantly equate "the God" of the Southern Baptists, Roman Catholics, Orthodox Jews, and Shiite Muslims, but I have yet to hear that all four groups practice the same religion. There is more to a religion than a deity list.

I wanted to, but I didn't. Not because I declined, but because I was unable to get a word in edgewise for the next hour. Every time that I tried to speak, another zealous young acolyte would cut me off, and glare in my direction. I was told later on, that I was no longer welcome there. So much for the freedom to explore new ideas.

This is not an atypical experience for Historical Recreationists. Hellenic Pagans will encounter the "Greek Wiccans" and hear the others insist that they are "exactly the same thing". "No", one of us will start to point out, "you're really not", as he starts to point out the differences in theology and liturgical practice. "Yes, we are!", the Wiccan will insist, repeatedly barging in, cutting off the recreationist, who will often have to shout his Wiccan 'friend' down, if he is to be heard at all. But how are we to maintain a distinct tradition if we are not 'allowed' to explain the differences between it and another tradition - that which makes it distinct?

How would the Wiccan community take to an incursion by a group of Christians who demanded that they agree that Wicca and Christianity were "really" the same path, and complained about their "hateful, intolerant" attitudes, when they denied that they worshipped Christ? Yet there are members of this Wiccan shadow of ours, who will see nothing odd about doing the exact same thing to us. Yes, we're free to have a distinct tradition. No Greek Wiccan would ever own up to anything so coarse as intolerance. We're just not allowed to say we do or specifically discuss our tradition, and thus maintain its authenticity or integrity.

One might note, that the Byzantine secret police offered the last of the Hellenic Paleo-Pagans the same sort of "tolerance", although backed up with a bit more force. But, then again, they had a bit more force to offer. Let us note that the Naperville police have literally had to be called on at least one of the members of the community, as mentioned in "Our Publisher Meets the Acolytes", in response to some bizarrely fanatical behavior, and while few in the Wiccan community still endorse her past conduct, none to date have ever condemned it.

This does raise the disturbing question of what the community would be capable of, were it to ever see the upper hand, politically (as Wicca or something akin to it became the dominant faith), and were current trends to continue. When ostracism and hostility become the invariable responses to even mild dissent, as they have seemed to, lately, one may well ask if freedom and pluralism would still be part of life in the society thus created, or if either are well served when Wicca gains in strength, as it will should others maintain ties to it and its community.

Nor is this experience limited to Hellenic Pagans. I'm told, the Asatruar will similarly encounter "Norse Wiccans", and see the same attitudes. "If you were a nice person, you'd agree to go along to get along, and assimilate". The ADF, when it is called, makes it clear that similar reactions have been seen from some of the "Celtic Wiccans" dropping by their door. Mican, when I called him, seemed distinctly uneasy when he mentioned that the Ancient Celts never called quarters, and asked me if I had a problem with him saying that, explaining that a string of people dropping by had grown abusive, when their arguments on that and other points were contradicted.

There is, in fact, a page entitled "Some Readings on Cultural Appropriations ..." which includes a massive bibliography of writings on the distortions of Native American traditional culture in the New Age movement, a number of them by greatly offended Native American authors. The result, in many cases, has merely been more tantrums by White, Teutonic Northern European descended Americans, who see nothing curious about themselves telling the Lakota how to be Native Americans. This is little cause for surprise, as some of these people have been telling the Irish how to be Celtic for years.

Some will seriously ask, if nice people would do something that "causes" such unhappiness, and loss of friendship, as is seen when some of us decline to go along, to get along. To this, we'd say that real friends let their friends be themselves in full, and don't try to limit them to keeping a few token details as momentos of an identity that they've been bullied into discarding.

What will the relationship between us and the Wiccan community be? I hope it will be a warm one, but that will be up to them. If it can accept the honest give and take of real scholarly discussion and respect the fact that we don't do or believe as they do, then I can hope that such a warm future, is a possibility. But, if, like these elders we have discussed, it feels that pressure is a substitute for reasoned discussion and expects our group to become an extension of its ideas, and its will, then we will react as hostily to this pushy attempt at dictating our faith and thoughts to us as we would were it to come from a fundamentalist Christian group. Let us be clear, that manipulation of any sort will be seen as being just another form of pressure.

In short, treat us as equals or get lost. Not very friendly, but then, underneath the shabby facades, neither is life. One simply has to learn to deal with it on its own terms.

This closes off this particular discussion. As I write this, I am unsure if I will be adding anything to this site (The Agora). I must admit that so far, it has been an unrewarding experience that has taken a great deal of time from far more rewarding projects. But every day, or at least every year does bring fresh hope and maybe one of these days, it will prove to be warranted. Until then, I'm going to go do my reading, if that's OK with you.

(end of earlier commentary)

Returning, now to 2002 ...

Work on the Agora was never to resume, and peace would never be made. The group where Antistoicus was silenced by the "zealous young acolytes" was none other than the "Blessed Village Shrine" that we spoke of earlier. Yes, these are the people we had tried to reason with. Such are the dangers of being too ready to forgive. Taken as a habit, it becomes a form of willful blindness that one must work very hard to overcome.

Click here to return.