Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:03:53 EDT
From: Ellen
To: Antistoicus
Subject: Re: Meetings, bashings, and a crate of antacid

WARNING! I have edited freely for clarity!

You weren't planning on doing any of this yourself, were you? If not, why worry about it?

Yeah well, even if I had that kind of time to waste, I doubt I'd EVER have the inclination. I prefer more productive activities!

The only other people who were removed from the list, prior to Sunday, were Harriet, and Sally (aka (deleted)). Given that you claim to have seen two people "violently bashed", at least one of those two must have been one of them. I read Markov's remarks, which you seem to allude to, below, but saw no reference to any specific elder, merely an observation that the Pagan elders, in general, were a "pain in the (deleted)". Such an observation does not rule out exceptions, and as such, would not constitute an attack against either.

Well, honestly, neither of the two ladies in question seems to share your perspective of the events, and as I have known them for years, and have only just met you, you can see why I asked for more clarification. What else can I do?

I would add, that neither of these two women, were removed from the list lightly, or capriciously, and so their removal should not have been a cause for concern.

Well, from what I have seen, I would disagree, but that is my perogative.

(Url deleted)
I actually plan to mosey over there later, but as an unofifcial student of Sally for the past two years, I probably will not have as open mind as I should.

anyway. Here is what you did not see, though:

Hmm, well I appreciate the insight. It all seems awfully convoluted tho.

2. You were on the lists, when Sally began her repetitive questions game, in classical Usenet style. (Ask impossibly broad questions, requiring impossibly long answers, like "what is the council and what do they do",

Tell you the truth, her questions made sence to me. I guess it is common to ask for a mission statement from someone you are not familiar with. There are a lot fo goofballs out there. (I have met some folks who should be on your cult list!)

Sally's response was to send a letter, starting with a string of insults, followed by a call to all of the members of the group to abandon it and come join her, and the staffs of the previous newsletters, to put out her own newsletter. This, she cc-ed to me, another person on the list, the mailing list itself (apparently forgetting that she had been suspended from it), and the staffs of said newsletters.

I think if you will peruse the posts, you will see that she offered some money and a place to meet, but it was never to be HER newsletter. She just wanted to give the thing space to grow.

At this point, she had breached the understanding that one was to refrain from politicing, in an attempt to isolate an opponent in an argument. This rule, perhaps THE rule here, is one of the primary reasons for having even established the Council, and is listed verbatim on our listing at the Witches' Voice, at

(url deleted)
which Sally had already visited. Sally agreed to this, and then breached her own oath, because she didn't like the direction in which a conversation was going. In particular, because policy in a group other than Prima Nocturne was not being set according to her preferences, without backtalk.

Huh? I will have to go read it. Is this from another disagreement, or the current one? (Expletitive deleted), maybe I am breaching oathes here! Whoops!

She then, like Mike, went into WebForum, this time, having somebody forward her letter to every single Chicago area Pagan mailing list there that we know of. (Have these people heard of restraint?) She revealed the shocking news that ... well, you've already seen her letter here. Another rehash. Trying to win through sheer persistence, and again, violating the above understanding.

Um, I think that her concern was that she was being slandered and wanted all to see how it was being done. Also, from her point of view you were a crackpot causing trouble in the community, and all should see you for what you are. I guess she thought Mike was your alias, so "you" were directly attacking her. I am not saying this is the truth, merely her perception.

I am told Mike was booted off the lists for all his chaos.

Again, I would ask - could you picture yourself doing any of this ? If not, then why worry?

Well, it is easy to be misunderstood here on-line, and I dont need that type of trouble. Who does? Admittedly, I think she was upset enough by the situation, that she was acting slightly out of character. Sometimes the straw that breaks the camel's back seems pretty unsubstantial.

Let us remember, that while Sally's actions were fully public, as they were announced at length on WebForum, the criticism of her you just saw was just written, for no eyes except your own, so far.

Granted

All that she, and Harriet, saw on the list, was rebuttal. Please understand that I have to ask this. Is it the case that, like Sally, you see counterargument as a form of "trashing", and a strongly effective counterargument as a "violent trashing"?

I personally saw all this as a misunderstanding. Perhaps a personality clash. But to me, your responces were very aggresively phrased and to me,who was not privy to all the events, they seemed undeserved, confusing and intimitating to my personal concept of free speech. (WHich I admit is different from everyone else's)

If that were the case, then I would be concerned that you might not be very happy, at either the Shrine or at the Council (should the latter continue).

Truth be told, I am awfully short on time, I was interested more as a submitter of articles, songs, poems and recipes.

At the former, you would be confronted with the reality that no scholarly discussion ever proceeeds along the lines that Sally seems to want.

Perhaps in Grad School, but in world I live in, I often have discussions, not specifically scholarly ones. I only went to college for five years as a musician and historian, but was not fortunate enough to have the funds to continue onto Grad School. Perhaps I am jealous of your situation.

It would seem strange to me, for someone who had an issue with that to even be here, as she wouldn't believe in the stated mission of the group she had decided to participate in. Why would she want to come?

Seems you and I differ in our definitions of "free and open". The concept is rather difficult for me to explain in this medium. The curse of being an musician, I guess.

> ... so I sat back to see how things went.
> ... Also the attitude that "Pagan Elders
> ... (deleted)" is not compatable with
> ... building a magazine/newsletter that
> ... is supposed to bring the community
> ... together.

A truly cohesive community never attempts to live together under one tent. Some people simply can't work together, and others (like Sally) aren't trying to work cooperatively at all. Our job would be to work with those we can and say goodbye to the rest.

Okay, but I fear you may excluding a lot of folks who may have much to offer. But then, I am perhaps too optimistic about human nature!

> ... but I wonder if others
> ... associated with you are.

If so, like I keep saying, that is their privilege. But what do you mean "associated"? Given that Mike has been shown the door, I would hope that he'd be off the list. As for Markov, he came to the group the same way you did. There was no prior connection.

I guess I was unclear that Mike was gone! Now I know. (Markov, eh? A name to remember, I think!)

All personal connections between me and anybody else in the group are above board, and acknowledged openly. I don't do politics.

If you deal with people, you do politics. But that is MY opinion, and probably different than yours.

> ... Ya gotta remember that not everyone
> ... has the same goals, and flexibility
> ... is the key to working with large groups
> ... of people.

Sorry, but I really can't agree with that. Principle, and a respect for propriety, are the keys to working with large groups of people. Unhampered flexibility is the key to developing a truly corrupt system.

I said flexiblility, not Chaos! I disagree with you, but then I am a member of MoonBeats and Elf Lore Family, and those are very large groups.

Cutting through large amounts of rationalization, Sally is, in effect, arguing that possessing clout in our little community, so stronly entitles one to a say in how somebody else's publication is going to be run, that one is entitled to be admitted to the staff, without pre-screening. No responsible organization would ever agree to this. Any publication put out on these terms, would be devoid of credibility.

She has then, seemingly, taken the attitude that because she has seen some community support, for this preposterously sleazy position, and apparently intimidated a handful of timid people into dropping out, that's she's going to get her way. Wrong. As for those who departed us for political reasons, I condemn Sally's motives, but I thank her for helping us clean house. If they would do it now, they would have done the same later, and people like that are a net liability.

I think you have completely misjudged her, but that is merely my opinion.

Principles aren't a diversion from our business here, principles are our business, and it we have to set them aside in order to make the newsletter happen, it is best not to put it out at all.

Perhaps I did not explain myself well. I think if we sat down and talked we would see that our concepts of what this zine can and should be, would either be very similar, or diametrically opposed. But as I said I am short on free time.

> ... It also costs a lot of money and TIME
> ... to put out a newsletter. Have you
> ... any plans for funding this endevor
> ... so far?

This was talked about, earlier. Given as many as 10 people dividing the expenses, it comes to $12/month, which we should easily be able to bear until advertisers can be found. We're not looking at a full-fledged magazine, merely a photocopied bundle of pages, like the old Gazette. The term for this is a "zine", and their budgets, historically haven't been especially high. More elegant things would gradually come later, and would be financed by the revenue from the humbler early efforts.

This is a matter of simple practicality, for more than financial reasons. It would take time, for the volume and quality of writing produced by the community, to justify a larger publication.

Makes sence. Good luck!

> ... Putting the meeting the WEEKEND
> ... BEFORE ELFEST, guaranteed that I
> ... could not make it, tho I gave plenty
> ... of notice that I could not
> ... make the meeting.

Yes, you did, and that was appreciated. The cessation of the list was not an act of personal pique. It was a reflection of a growing understanding that setting up a mailing list was the wrong way to go. You all were given my telephone number. Please feel free to use it.

I'm not really sure that the Internet has proved to be especially productive as a communications medium. It's darn good for working mischief, though. The only thing I really like about it is that it makes it possible for one to give public access to large amounts of reference material, cheaply.

thought of doing an E-zine? Cheap and easy to do!

> ... Perhaps a longer gestation period is
> ... needed. We are entering the busiest
> ... time of the year for most Pagans
> ... I know.

Summer vacation? You do remember that this is a mostly collegiate crowd, right? It's the one time most of us are free. Sort of.

Hmm, you must be hanging out with a differnt crowd than I do. I work full time, co-run a household with my husband, help my parents re-furbish their home, have a step-son that I must drive down to Kankakee to get and I study with several teachers.

A lot of Pagans I know go to PSG, ELFest, Dragon Fest, Starwood, etc. or work at the Ren Faire. It is hard to pick a weekend when they are all free. Plus I have many military friends, so they have their summer training. Guess that's why I assume that WInter is the easier time to organize things. Like over the month long winter break of my college friends. Just a differnt perspective I suppose. Most pagans I know have children and families.

Or, going nuts because of approaching midterms, and the multiple jobs they're working to get through school.

Hmm, well, tell ya the truth, I wish I was back in the "easy" days of 25 hr class loads and concerts, recitials and juries! But then, I have a masochistic streak! The "Real World" is harder than I thought! College just wasnt much of a prep as I had hoped. (No, I am being ironic, not condescending!)

Winter is quite as bad. I didn't expect massive early involvement, but I did expect to see somebody come. If nobody, does, then this is just so much wheel spinning, and I'm not short on projects. Time to move on.

> ... I wish you luck

Thank you. Look, I know you're sticking up for your friends, and I respect that. I've made an effort to handle an unpleasant subject as pleasantly as I could, and if through my awkwardness, I have caused offense, I beg your pardon. But please understand that if I allow political convenience to override principle here, the entire purpose of gathering, will be gone. So, in enforcing policy, I can not concern myself with the friendships or the personalities involved. I'm sure that you're familiar with the concept of "a slippery slope". I'd rather not start down one.

Well, perhaps we will run into each other under better circumstances. I think perhaps we have philosophical differences that may prevent us from working together, as well as time constraints, but if you are looking for unpaid submissions, you know my e-mail address!

yours,

Ellen



Comment: "Well, to tell ya the truth" ... we seriously doubt that Ellen ever went to college. Or told anybody the truth. How educated does this woman sound to you? Reading her sage commentary about how easy college is gave us yet another irritating experience involving her, and we suspect that this is not accidental. Deliberately trying to exasperate the opposition is a popular troll tactic, online. Also, notice the habitual use of the context shifting game: Antistoicus is speaking of the membership of the group itself, and as he was at the sign up booth (and Ellen only passed by there briefly), obviously Antistoicus would be in a far better position to know the demographics of what had been our combined group at the time, than Ellen would have been. Ellen responds by acting as if he had been speaking of the local Pagan population as a whole, bringing in the irrelevant detail of the ages of those she hangs around with, people who had not signed up for the group and weren't going to be going to any of the meanings.

As Antistoicus would later note, to have a straight discussion with the woman was a near-impossibility. Ellen said it herself : "If you deal with people, you do politics. But that is my opinion" ... ie. she is denying that dealing with others in a straightforward fashion is even a conceptual possibility. There is not much of a point to trying to reason with somebody who has, in effect, equated communication with manipulation. The same might be said of attempts to talk things over with her friends and associates. Click here to return.