Name: Tobias
Date: Sat Sep 21 10:38:57 MDT 2002

Antistoicus, your feeble attempts to fudge the issue are pathetic. Nobody is looking for any 'war' with the Xtians or anyone else although YOU would love to create such a situation. It is 'you' that is full of hate towards paganism as your own words prove so well. Why else would you welcome the Vatican 'blood libel' against pagans? You are nothing but an evangelical, wiccan-hating troublemaker seeking to divide pagans! Oh yeah - most Nazis were 'Christian' folk, born and bred!

Re: Lord Alton. Antistoicus may not regard this person as important yet his anti-pagan actions may effect thousands of pagans in the UK and abroard, via new SRAM cases. You should know that the fundie machine crosses ALL national barriers. The SRAM came from the States to the UK in the first place. You are so very ignorant of these matters (or of course pretend to be 'Rev.') Interesting that you love to vilify CHU and CCLF for simply warning people about what fundies in high places are up to!

Antistoicus, consider the following : the late Geoffrey Dickens MP stated - 'We must outlaw witchcraft in this country. No child is safe We have to go in with hobnail boots. I want all cults of this nature outlawed. I want them closed down and made totally illegal" (24 April 1988) - just weeks later SRAM started. CCLF opposed him and turned the situation for the good of ALL pagans. Should they have simply ignored the danger and hoped that it would blow over like many others did?

Name: Gertrude
Date: Sat Sep 21 11:30:54 MDT 2002

Rev. A, Your heart is 100% Xtian/monotheistic as your own words prove so clearly. Not only do you hate wiccans you also hate pagans and think that Vatican supression is "Good". "Church-goer" (as you call yourself) why don't you quit before you make a bigger fool of yourself now! 'Christo/ Pagan' - oh hum - grow up & give us a break! Crusading missionary Xtians like you are so easy to spot!

Name: Antistoicus
Date: Sat Sep 21 15:46:34 MDT 2002

Tobias - history is what it is, whether it suits your political purposes or not. To acknowledge the real thing with all of its warts doesn't make me a covert "Xtian" missionary, it makes me honest. What I am in favor of is a Pagan community that, unlike you and Gertrude, is mature enough to take those lumps that a truthful recounting of history will leave it with, and learn from its past mistakes, not resort to Historical Revisionism, as you and Gertrude have right here.

Now, Toby, another question (and I notice that you're still trying to sidestep my earlier question of what positive good you hope to accomplish for Pagans by whipping up hatred like this). If being in favor of intolerance toward Pagans was the normative Christian position, instead of an abberation practiced by a few hatemongers, then how do explain the presence of religious freedom for Pagans in all of these overwhelmingly Christian Western countries?

Realistically, Pagans could never have won these freedoms for themselves through force. As you yourself seem to admit, such a war would be over before it started, were Pagandom ever foolish enough to start it. Nor can the West have been forced to embrace these reforms by outsiders, because by the time these freedoms were given, the West clearly dominated the globe both militarily and economically.

The only rational conclusion is that Pagans in the West are free to worship as they please because, by and large with but a few loud-mouthed exceptions, Western Christians want them to be. What you are doing here is scapegoating a decent majority in response to the actions of a few. If that is a legitimate thing to do, then, as much as you have tried to dodge the point, one is left with that hateful minority of Pagans who did so much to make the Holocaust happen.

I am amused by your attempt to evade this point by saying that most Nazis were Christian born and bred - as if most present-day Pagans were not. Using your own logic, where you scapegoat the majority because of the actions of a few, one would be left with the conclusion that Jews should hate Pagans, Jews who don't hate Pagans, and Judeo-Pagans, I suppose. If, being a Pagan, you find yourself rejecting that conclusion, then reason must compel you to reject the argument that produced it.

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