MR. ROUSSY (rising with an air of assurance): Nothing is easier, sir; here are the very words of the Saviour, in St. Matthew (Chap. 28:19-20): "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you, and lo! I am with you always even unto the end of the world."

MR. CHINIQUY: Mr. Roussy will have the kindness to say to whom these words were addressed by the Divine Saviour?

MR. ROUSSY: Jesus Christ addressed these words to His Apostles.

MR. CHINIQUY: The Secretaries will have the kindness to write that the words which Mr. Roussy has quoted, refer only to the Apostles. Now, Mr. Roussy, will you tell us if St. Mark was an Apostle?

MR.ROUSSY: Yes sir, St. Mark was an Apostle.

MR.CHINIQUY: The Secretaries will please write that Mr. Roussy maintains that St. Mark was an Apostle.

MR. ROUSSY (precipitately): No, no, sir, St. Mark was not an Apostle.

MR. CHINIQUY: Write, gentlemen, that Mr. Roussy declares that St. Mark was not an Apostle. Well, Mr. Roussy, since St. Mark was not an Apostle, and since the text you have quoted refers only to the Apostles, it follows, according to your own statement, that it has nothing to do with St. Mark.

MR. ROUSSY: No sir, I was mistaken, and I admit that the text quoted does not refer to St. Mark.

MR. CHINIQUY: Very well, Mr. Roussy, then I repeat my question before this respectable assembly. Show us a precise text from the Bible, which proves that St. Mark was inspired by God to write the Gospel.

Mr. Roussy rises, and commences turning the pages of his book. He is pale, he trembles, he perspires profusely, he takes more than ten minutes to search.

A gloomy silence reigns, only a few feeble murmurs of "He is caught" are heard. But silence is imposed. At last the audience is becoming impatient, and someone speaks: "Come on, Mr. Roussy, what are you doing now?"

The gentleman appears more and more disconcerted. He replies in a trembling voice: "Gentlemen, I beg of you to be patient, I admit I am in very close quarters." These words were followed by a general burst of laughter.

MR. CHINIQUY: You will find yourself in closer quarters in a minute, sir.

MR. ROUSSY (after having searched in vain for a quarter of an hour, falls into his seat, and says in a pitiful voice): "I am not able to find the text I am looking for."

MR. CHINIQUY: Gentlemen, have the kindness to write that Mr. Roussy declares himself unable to find a text from Holy Scripture which proves that St. Mark was inspired by God to write the Gospel.

Another little question, Mr. Roussy. Since according to your religion, one should only believe as true, what can be proved by a text from the Holy Bible, will you find for us the text that proves that St. Luke, who was no more an Apostle than St. Mark, was inspired by God to write the Gospel?

MR. ROUSSY (once more rises, but his face and whole appearance indicate a man completely broken up. He searches again for five or six minutes; then allowing himself to fall back into his chair, exclaims): "I am not able."

MR. CHINIQUY: Gentlemen, will you, if you please, write that Mr. Roussy declares he "is not able" to find a text in his Bible to prove that St. Luke wrote the Gospel.

[Then, addressing Mr. Roussy:]

Very well sir, since you declare you are not able to find a word in the Holy Bible to assure you that St. Mark and St. Luke wrote the Gospels that bear their names, how do you know that it was they who wrote these Gospels?

Then, turning towards the audience, Mr. Chiniquy says, smiling: "Listen well to his reply." A gloomy silence follows for an instant.

MR. ROUSSY: We prove that St. Mark and St. Luke wrote the Gospels by the miracles they wrought.

MR.CHINIQUY: Very well, show me a text from the Gospel where it states that St. Mark and St. Luke wrought miracles.

MR. ROUSSY (rising slowly, admits that he is not able; he murmurs some unintelligible words, then speaks with an embarrassment which he cannot conceal): You ask me, sir, how it is known that St. Mark and St. Luke wrote their Gospels; but, sir, that is only known by the testimony of the early Christians.

At these words nothing is heard but exclamations of joy and the clapping of hands. "He is convicted by his own words"; "He is caught in his own trap", yell voices from the crowd.

MR. CHINIQUY: Yes, my friends, he is taken at his own words, and as you say, caught in his own trap; he is forced to have recourse to the testimony of the early Christians, that is to the Tradition of the Church, to prove the very first of Gospel truths, the existence of the Gospel itself. He is, therefore, forced to admit that he deceived you just now, when he told you everything was to be found written in the Bible, and that anything that could not be proved by some text ought to be rejected.

MR. ROUSSY: I am not caught. It is you, Mr. Chiniquy, who have been caught in your own trap; it is you who are convicted, for you are not able to show us what the Church is, and what authority it has.

MR. CHINIQUY: Since Mr. Roussy does not know what the Church is, I shall have the pleasure of telling him. The early Christians, being divided on certain practices, followed the advice of Our Lord, and appealed to the Church of their day, and this is what took place: (Acts 15:6) "And the Apostles and ancients came together to consider of this matter. And when there was much disputing, Peter rising up said to them: My brethren, you know that in former days God made choice among us, that the Gentiles, by my mouth, should hear the word of the Gospel, and believe." After Peter, Barnabas and Paul were heard. Then James speaks in his turn; but it was only to confirm what Peter had said. Finally, the deliberation being finished, they wrote these solemn words: "For it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us to decide in such a manner the question that you have raised."

There, Mr. Roussy, that is what the Church is. That is how she spoke 1900 years ago, and that is how she speaks still, and how she still speaks to the end of time; for she can never perish, seeing that Jesus Christ has said: "The gates of hell shall not prevail against her." It is this infallible Church which tells me, a Catholic, as she told it 1900 years ago: "St. Mark and St. Luke were inspired by God to write their Gospels", and I am certain she speaks the truth, for it is the Holy Ghost who enlightens her. This Church, according to St. Paul (1 Timothy 3:15), "is the pillar and foundation of the truth." This Church, outside of which there is nothing but falsehood and error, has been called Catholic since the time of the Apostles, and no other church can ever bear this grand name.

This Catholic Church, to which I have the happiness to belong, is also called Apostolic, because it is united with the Apostles by an unbroken chain of priests, bishops and Popes, who obtain their power, by incontestable titles, from them. This Catholic and Apostolic Church is also called Roman, because it was at Rome that its Founder amongst men (St. Peter) shed his blood and because it was there he deposited for his successors the keys of Heaven, which neither demons nor heretics nor infidels can deprive her of. "Thou art Peter and on this Rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:16-19).

When I, a Catholic, take the Bible in my hands, I am as certain that it is the word of God as I am certain that there is a God in Heaven, because it is the Catholic Church (the pillar and foundation of the truth) which tells me so.

When I read the Gospel, I read it only with a full and complete submission to the interpretation which the Church gives me, whose voice I am obliged to hear, under pain of being treated by God "as a heathen and publican" (Matt., 18:17). And when I read this Holy Gospel I call to mind the words of St. Peter (2 Peter 3:15-16): "As also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which, are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as also the other Scriptures, to their own perdition."

In reading the Holy Scriptures, I call to mind that I am but a poor ignorant man, and that if I depend upon my feeble understanding, I shall very soon go astray; therefore I am careful to understand what I read in the sense that the Church has always taught. For if I am bound to believe that the Church is infallible, when she tells me that St. Mark and St. Luke were inspired by the Holy Ghost to write their Gospels, although I do not find a word in the Bible, according to Mr. Roussy's admission, to prove this truth, I am bound to believe that she is in like manner guided by the Holy Ghost, in the interpretation of the Scriptures, which sacred treasure she alone has preserved for me infallibly.

I have admitted to you, Mr. Chairman, that I am but an ignorant man, and for this reason I am in need of an infallible guide in the interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. I have no intention of insulting, nor of wounding Mr. Roussy in any manner, but I tell you that I believe him just as ignorant as I am, and I believe that he belongs to that class of men of whom St. Peter speaks, when he says, the unlearned do not understand the Holy Scriptures, and wrest them in a false sense to their own perdition.

In spite of my ignorance and my weakness, I am assured that I shall not go astray in the reading of the Scriptures, since I have for my guide the Church, "the pillar and foundation of the truth", and I take for my interpreter that Church, to whom my adorable Saviour has said: "The gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." But I am curious to know how Mr Roussy, who is also a poor ignorant man, can be assured of finding his salvation in the reading of the Bible, when the prince of the Apostles assures us that the ignorant find in it their ruin.

MR. ROUSSY: The Holy Ghost invites us to read the Sacred Scriptures, and in consequence promises to enlighten us. Here is a text which reveals to us, in a most evident manner, this truth: "Evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But continue thou in the things thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child, thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation, through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3: 13, 16).

Here we see St. Paul congratulating his well beloved Timothy for having known the holy scriptures from his childhood. Therefore, we merit the praises of God by studying the Holy Scriptures. Besides, is it not positively stated here that all scripture is inspired by God for instruction and correction? If all scripture is given by inspiration of God for instruction, and correction, how can Mr. Chiniquy dare to say that the reading of the Holy Scriptures is bad and can cause our ruin ?

MR. CHINIQUY: Mr.Chairman, I have already remarked to you that this good Mr. Roussy was unfortunate in the choice of his texts. The one that he has just chosen is going to destroy irretrievably his argument.

In the first place, you see, by this text, that St. Paul says positively, "continue thou in the things thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them." Here St. Paul is not speaking of the Bible, nor of writings at all, he speaks of things that have been learned, and it is very probable, or rather, it is very certain that these things were not written, for St. Paul says to remember them, not from the book in which he had read them, but on account of the person who had taught them to him. And to show how far St. Paul was from preaching Mr. Roussy's absurd doctrine, that all things necessary to salvation are written in the Bible, it will suffice to cast our eyes a few lines higher than the text quoted by Mr. Roussy. St. Paul, speaking to the same Timothy, says to him: "And the things which thou hast heard from me, before many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men; who shall be fit to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2).

Yes, continue firm, says the Apostle of the Gentiles, in the things you have learned not only by the reading of the Sacred books, but also in the things you have "heard from me, before many witnesses."

St. Paul made use of no different language when writing to Timothy, than he had used when addressing the Thessalonians, for he said to them also: "Therefore, Brethren, stand firm; and hold the tradition which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle" (2 Thess. 2:14). And these words of the Apostle Paul, which are the words of the Holy Ghost himself have resounded throughout the world for 1900 years. And, all those who have really believed in Jesus Christ have repeated them, they believe them, and they will repeat them to the very end of time, to the eternal confusion of infidels and innovators. "Hold the tradition which you have learned, whether by our words or by our writings." That has been the teaching of the Church for nineteen centuries. That will be the teaching of the Church till the end of time; for this Church, like the Son of God whose immaculate Spouse she is, can never change. St. Paul was far from upholding the absurd doctrine of modern innovators; he who says positively in his Epistle to the Romans (Chap. 10, 13-17): "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call Him in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And now can they preach unless they be sent? Faith then cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

St. Paul congratulates St. Timothy on his reading of the Holy Scriptures, but it was because his holy disciple joined to this reading, the most entire submission to the explanations and to the instructions, by word of mouth, of his superiors before God. It is also in this manner that the Church wishes her children to read the Holy Scriptures. The absurd idea entertained by Mr. Roussy, that a knowledge of the Gospel comes by reading alone, was so far from the thought of the Apostle that he cries out: "How shall the nations believe in Jesus Christ if they have not Him spoken of, and how shall they hear Him spoken of unless some one preaches to them?"

According to the Apostle St. Paul, therefore, the best manner, or rather, the only means of knowing Jesus Christ is to hear of Him by preaching, and not by reading. Without doubt, reading is not useless, but it aids the faith of them alone, who listen to the preaching of those who have been sent to preach. But I have told you that Mr. Roussy was going to completely destroy himself with the text which he has quoted for us. If I have understood this gentleman well, he has read to us in his Bible these exact words, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." Are those not the words you have read, Mr. Roussy?

MR. ROUSSY: Yes, sir. St. Paul says: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

[NOTE: This debate originally took place in the French language. The word "scripture", in English, commonly means the Sacred Scriptures of the holy Bible. However, in the French version of many Protestant bibles, including the Bible used by Mr. Roussy, the word "scripture", which is here used, is translated in a manner equivalent to the ordinary English word "writing", in every day use.]

MR. CHINIQUY: Mr. Chairman and all of you, gentlemen, who compose this respectable meeting, you have heard these words from Mr. Roussy's Bible. Well, what do you think of them? Yes, what do you think of a man or of a religion which assures you that all writing is given by the inspiration of God for reproof, for correction and for instruction? Up to the present moment, you have believed that there were some books or writings which could only defile and corrupt the heart, but Mr. Roussy has discovered the contrary in his precious Bible.

I know of a great number of books which have been written only under the inspiration of the most wicked passions and are calculated only to defile and corrupt those who read them, but, Mr. Roussy assures us that we have all been mistaken, and he proclaims that all writings are given by the inspiration of God. You have well understood him to say so, have you not? (voices: "Yes, yes," are heard from all sides).

A few minutes ago, Mr. Roussy said, with emphasis, that if anyone added anything to or took anything from the word of God - he is cursed! Well, gentlemen, this being the case, the curse of God must surely be on those who wrote the Bible that Mr. Roussy holds in his hands, for this Bible is false, ridiculously false, when it says that all writing is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

MR. ROUSSY (rising angrily): How dare you say, Mr. Chiniquy, that the Holy Bible I hold in my, hand is false and deceptive, I defy you to prove it; what you say is blasphemy.

MR. CHINIQUY: I am going to prove to you, sir, that what I have just said, is nothing but the truth; your Bible is false and deceptive to an absurd degree. It is a falsified Bible, and I am about to prove it, at once.

Addressing a respectable farmer, named Gauthier: Sir, by whom was the Bible I hold in my hand given to you?

MR. GAUTHIER: That Bible was given to me by a person who had it from Mr. Roussy.

MR. CHINIQUY: Very well, Mr. Chairman, you are going to judge what should be thought of this Protestant Bible. The Bible that Mr. Roussy holds, says: "All writing is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for reproof, for, correction, for instruction in righteousness." But, the Bible which I hold, and which also comes from Mr. Roussy, does not contain this absurdity, for I read in it: "All scripture, divinely inspired, is profitable to teach, to correct, to instruct in justice."

MR. ROUSSY (rising in a hurry): The two sentences are the same.

MR. CHINIQUY: No, sir, these two sentences are not the same. Is it the same thing, Mr. Chairman, and all you gentlemen who hear me; all of you reply; is it the same thing to say, "All writing is given by inspiration of God" � and to say � "All Scripture, divinely inspired, is profitable to teach", etc.?

From all sides of the hall a unanimous cry is heard: "No, these two sentences are not the same."

MR. CHINIQUY: You are right, my friends; the first of these sentences is an absurdity, and it is only a Bible coming from the hands of Satan himself, which could say, "All writing is given by the inspiration of God." That sentence is infernal in character. No, no, all writing is not inspired by God. There are many writings, there are thousands of books inspired, by the Devil.

Besides, here are two Bibles, both from the hands of Mr. Roussy. If the one which says "All writing (or scripture) is given by inspiration of God" is correct, that which says "All scripture, divinely inspired is profitable to teach" is incorrect.

The latter is copied from the authorized Catholic Bible, and if the Methodists, in copying it, have added nothing to the true Bible, they have taken something from the Bible which Mr. Roussy has before him. This is as clear as sunlight; either they have added to this one the words "divinely inspired", or they have taken them from the other; and as both these Bibles are printed and circulated by Methodists, for, though one claims to be a copy of the Catholic Bible, both come from their hands; therefore, according to Mr. Roussy's words, they are cursed by Heaven for having added to or taken from the word of God."

MR. ROUSSY (taking up excitedly his cap and coat, and wishing to leave, says): I don't care to argue any longer with a man who dares to tell me that my Bible is falsified.

MR. CHINIQUY: I am not satisfied with telling you so, sir, but I prove it. Here are two Bibles, both coming from you � one speaks in one manner, the other in another. Consequently, one of them must be falsified, and you are consequently publicly convicted of having circulated a falsified Bible.

But enough on this question of the Bible and of Tradition. I have confounded you by your own words on these questions.

Let us take up the accusation that you have brought against the Catholic Church of having suppressed the Second Commandment of God.

Did you, Mr. Roussy, put your signature at the bottom of this letter? [Mr. Chiniquy then showed a letter signed by Mr. Roussy, in which the Catholic Church is accused of having suppressed the Second Commandment of God.]

MR. ROUSSY (appearing confused and trembling): Yes, sir, it is I who have signed that letter.

MR. CHINIQUY�Very well; then you must prove what you have stated in this letter.

MR. ROUSSY: No, sir, you have told me that my Bible is falsified, and I am going. (Mr. Roussy again begins to leave.)

On all sides, cries are heard of: "Don't let him escape"; "Stop him"; "You are a coward, Mr. Roussy".

It was only with great difficulty that Mr. Chiniquy and the chairman were able to stop the noise. Order being somewhat restored, the meeting resumed.

MR. CHINIQUY: That is not the only place where your Bible has been shamefully falsified. Here is another of your texts, where the hand of Satan is shown in a plainly visible manner: (Matt. 16:25): "For whosoever wishes to save his soul, shall lose it � but whosoever shall lose his soul for the love of me, shall find it again"

["Car quiconque voudra sauver son �me la perdra ... Mais quiconque perdra son �me pour l'amour de moi, la retrouvera" - French Protestant Bible.]

Is not this a great discovery, the finding of a soul which has been lost for the love of Jesus Christ?

This text seemed to strike Mr. Roussy like a thunderbolt; he starts from the platform where he was, saying: "Amongst the Latins, the soul and the life were the same thing." These words were greeted with an immense shout of laughter; with cries: "The coward, he is running away; he is not able to continue the discussion", and "Stop him from going out".

The chairman and Mr. Chiniquy succeeded in restoring order, reminding the people they had given their word of honor not to do anything to hurt Mr. Roussy.

While Mr. Roussy was making his escape through the crowd, a Protestant, fearing that they would do him an injury, and wishing to protect him, exclaimed: "Mr. Roussy is defeated, it is true, but it is not necessary, on that account, to kill him."