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<Debate>
  <Title>Return of Nowhere Man v. Lilith</Title>
  <Participant email="some_where_man@yahoo.com">Nowhere Man</Participant>
  <Participant email="">Lilith</Participant>
  <Status>In Progress</Status>
  <LastUpdate>2004/01/18</LastUpdate>
  <Foreword>
  </Foreword>
  <Glossary>
    <Gloss id="gloss.B1">
      <Word>haplotype</Word>
      <Part>n.</Part>
      <Def>The set, made up of one allele of each gene, comprising the genotype.</Def>
      <Domain>genetics</Domain>
      <Per href="http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?haplotype">CancerWEB On-Line Medical Dictionary</Per>
    </Gloss>
    <Gloss id="gloss.A1">
      <Word>helpful mutation</Word>
      <Part>n.</Part>
      <Def>A mutation that helps the mutatee better survive.</Def>
      <Per>Nowhere Man</Per>
    </Gloss>
    <Gloss id="gloss.B2">
      <Word>polymorphism</Word>
      <Part>n.</Part>
      <Def>The regular and simultaneous occurrence in a single interbreeding  population of two or more alleles of a gene, where the frequency of the rarer alleles is greater than can be explained by recurrent mutation alone (typically greater than 1%). The concept includes chromosome polymorphism.</Def>
      <Domain>genetics</Domain>
      <Per href="http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?polymorphism">CancerWEB On-Line Medical Dictionary</Per>
    </Gloss>
  </Glossary>
  <References>
    <Ref id="ref.B1">
      <Abstract href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&amp;db=PubMed&amp;list_uids=11683775&amp;dopt=Abstract"/>
      <Citation>
        1. Clee et al. The LPL S447X cSNP is associated with decreased blood
        pressure and plasma triglycerides, and reduced risk of coronary artery
        disease.  Clin. Gen. October 2001 60(4): 293-300
      </Citation>
    </Ref>
    <Ref id="ref.B2">
      <Abstract href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?holding=npg&amp;cmd=Retrieve&amp;db=PubMed&amp;list_uids=10359734&amp;dopt=Abstract"/>
      <Citation>
        2. Wittrup HH, Tybjærg-Hansen A, Nordestgaard BG. Lipoprotein lipase
        mutations, plasma lipids and lipoproteins, and risk of ischemic heart
        disease. A meta-analysis. Circulation
        1999: 99: 2901-2907.
      </Citation>
    </Ref>
    <Ref id="ref.B03">
      <Abstract href="http://atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/19/11/2708"/>
      <Citation>
        3. Wittekoek ME, Moll E, Pimstone SN et al. A frequent mutation in the
        lipoprotein lipase gene (D9N) deteriorates the biochemical and
        clinical phenotype of familial hyperchoelsterolemia. Arterioscler
        Thromb Vasc Biol 1999: 19: 2708-2713.
      </Citation>
    </Ref>
    <Ref id="ref.B04">
      <Abstract href="http://hmg.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/11/12/1477"/>
      <Citation>
        4. Knoblauch H, Bauerfeind A, Krahenbuhl C, Daury A, Rohde K, Bejanin
        S, Essioux L, Schuster H, Luft FC, Reich JG. Common haplotypes in five
        genes influence genetic variance of LDL and HDL cholesterol in the
        general population. Hum Mol Genet. 2002 Jun 1; 11(12): 1477-85.
      </Citation>
    </Ref>
  </References>
  <Round>
    <Point>It is up to my opponent to show that helpful mutations exist</Point>
    <Message>
      <Challenge/>
      <MessageId>cb65864a.0401181439.1fd804d3@posting.google.com</MessageId>
      <Dated>2004/01/18 22:34:45</Dated>
      <Body>
        <p>The topic of debate is <g idref="gloss.A1">helpful mutations</g>. The theory of evolution
        depends that helpful mutations can happen. So there is a serious
        problem with the theory of evolution because helpful mutations do not
        exist. So I present the question... has a single helpful mutation ever
        been observed? I say no it has not. <f>It is up to my opponent to show
        that helpful mutations exist</f> because she wishes to support the theory
        of evolution. Because I am not the one making any claims I do not have
        to post any references. After my opponent is unable to show that any
        helpful mutations have been docuemented this will show that the theory
        of evolution is unfounded.</p>
        <p>The definition of a helpful mutation is a mutation that helps the
        mutatee better survive.</p>
      </Body>
    </Message>
    <Message>
      <Rebuttal/>
      <MessageId>75200cbc.0401190719.12f00856@posting.google.com</MessageId>
      <Dated>2004/01/19 15:16:11</Dated>
      <Body>
        <p>There is no "standard genome" -- no "reference sequence" in humans,
        but rather a collection of common consensus sets (<g idref="gloss.B1">haplotypes</g>) that
        varies from individual to individual. While it is observed that single
        beneficial mutations can rapidly sweep through a population, it is
        also important to note that fitness is also likely to be governed by
        the combination of mutations rather than a single mutation.
        Evolutionary theory supposes beneficial point mutations to be unusual
        events that sweep through a population. Benefit and selection are not
        simply dependent on these single unusual events, because an
        individual's sum total of variation (mutation) through their genome --
        numbering in the millions across the human species -- is likely to be
        more the source of fitness than a single point change. One must ask
        what is the context of this beneficial mutation, how does it give an
        advantage over the previous form of the gene in the context of the
        creature's environment.</p>
        <p>There are several studied examples of these rare mutations occurring
        which can increase fitness, including those done on bacteria and other
        organisms. However, let me cite such a one that has been observed in
        humans. This example is particularly interesting, because evolutionary
        theory suggests that human diets have rapidly changed over the past
        several thousand years from their original form. Our diets are now
        rich in fat and refined carbohydrate, clearly not the previous diet of
        our nomadic or foraging ancestors. In addition, Westernized society
        has made its members more sedentary. These changes may have out-paced
        selection, so that as an extreme example, it can be suggested that
        many humans in a Westernized context are not fit -- not fully adapted
        -- for a sedentary, food-rich environment. Heart disease, higher serum
        ratios of LDL to HDL, high blood pressure, and other cardiovascular
        symptoms are indicative of chronic cardiovascular disease, which
        results from the inability of human physiology to cope with this
        change in diet. Individuals unable to cope with such a diet will
        suffer as a result, so that the human population can experience
        selective pressure, and beneficial mutations allowing individuals the
        ability to survive with this changed diet should be expected to
        appear.</p>
        <p>One such mutation has already been found, though this is not to say
        that others will not be found as well.  This particular mutation
        renders the lipoprotein gene as a shorter form and confers a survival
        advantage on the humans with this mutation. This mutation shortens the
        lipoprotein lipase (LPL) protein by inserting a "stop" signal upstream
        of the original stop signal, while the majority of other humans share
        the non-mutated, "full length" version of this gene.</p>
        <p>There have been several papers on this example, as it is important to
        medical research to understand the basis of cardiovascular disease.
        One set of authors studying this mutation write, "LPL S447X single
        nucleotide <g idref="gloss.B2">polymorphism</g> has been associated with decreased
        triglycrides, incrased high density lipoprotein cholesterol, and a
        decreased risk of coronary artery disease, which may occur
        independently of its beneficial lipid changes." Researchers found that
        carriers of this mutation had decreased incidence of hypertension
        across men/women, youth/adults, and was independent of triglyceride
        levels as well, suggesting that this variant has protective affects to
        humans carrying this mutation, not only in the healthier change in
        plasma lipid levels, but also in healthier regulation of blood
        pressure and a decreased trend in vascular disease. The researchers
        conclude, "These studies on the S447X variant provide a novel
        potential mechanism whereby carriers have a reduced risk of CAD and
        stroke, namely through decreasing blood pressure. In addition to its
        association with an improved lipoprotein profile, these data
        illustrate another mechanism whereby the S447X variant has beneficial
        activities compared to wildtype LPL. Furthermore, these findings
        suggest a novel function of the LPL protein, namely influencing
        endothelial cell biology." <r idref="ref.B1">[1]</r></p>
        <p>This is one example of a beneficial mutation. Note it has a context:
        the mutation benefits humans in a modern context. It has a cause: a
        mutation that causes a shorter version of the LPL gene while the
        "orignal" form of the gene is still obviously present. The mutation
        has a clinically observed outcome in several studies: increased
        survival rates, increased vascular health, higher HDL levels, and
        lower incidence of hypertension. This mutation ranges from a few
        percent in some populations in up to to 30 percent in others,
        indicating that the variation has spread into a population. There have
        also been several studies supporting these findings (a few given in
        references <r idref="ref.B2">2-4</r> for example) making this likely one of the best studied
        and established beneficial mutations that we are aware of.</p>
<!--
        <p>References:</p>
        <p>1. Clee et al. The LPL S447X cSNP is associated with decreased blood
        pressure and plasma triglycerides, and reduced risk of coronary artery
        disease.  Clin. Gen. October 2001 60(4): 293-300</p>
        <p>2. Wittrup HH, Tybjærg-Hansen A, Nordestgaard BG. Lipoprotein lipase
        mutations, plasma lipids and lipoproteins, and risk of ischemic heart
        disease. A meta-analysis. Circulation
        1999: 99: 2901-2907.</p>
        <p>3. Wittekoek ME, Moll E, Pimstone SN et al. A frequent mutation in the
        lipoprotein lipase gene (D9N) deteriorates the biochemical and
        clinical phenotype of familial hyperchoelsterolemia. Arterioscler
        Thromb Vasc Biol 1999: 19: 2708-2713.</p>
        <p>4. Knoblauch H, Bauerfeind A, Krahenbuhl C, Daury A, Rohde K, Bejanin
        S, Essioux L, Schuster H, Luft FC, Reich JG. Common haplotypes in five
        genes influence genetic variance of LDL and HDL cholesterol in the
        general population. Hum Mol Genet. 2002 Jun 1; 11(12): 1477-85.</p>
        <p>Definitions:</p>
        <p>Haplotype: <genetics> The set, made up of one allele of each gene,
        comprising the genotype. (Cancerweb online dictionary)</p>
        <p>Polymorphism: <genetics> The regular and simultaneous occurrence in a
        single interbreeding  population of two or more alleles of a gene,
        where the frequency of the rarer alleles is greater than can be
        explained by recurrent mutation alone (typically greater than 1%). The
        concept includes chromosome polymorphism. (Cancerweb online
        dictionary)</p>
-->
      </Body>
    </Message>
    <Message>
      <Author>Nowhere Man</Author>
      <MessageId>cb65864a.0401250038.22852f75@posting.google.com</MessageId>
      <Dated>2004/01/25 08:39:55</Dated>
      <Body>
        <p>It seems so that my opponent is unable to respond. I will accept this
        as a full admission that she is not able to find a single a observed
        benificial mutation. It has been one week since I started the debate
        and Lilith has failed to respond. She has not responded to the message
        I posted or to this new post a judge told me is the new debate thread.
        This means that I win the debate. I would like people to see this as a
        lesson that even the most basics of evolution do not have foundation.
        Thank you all.</p>
      </Body>
    </Message>
    <Message>
      <Author>Louann Miller</Author>
      <MessageId>1gna10971g82pvhge84783icqa5mourg37@4ax.com</MessageId>
      <Dated>2004/01/26 18:45:18</Dated>
      <Body>
        <p>Funny, everybody else saw it. She posted six hours or so after you
        did.</p>
        <p><e>snip</e></p>
      </Body>
    </Message>
    <Message>
      <Author>Nowhere Man</Author>
      <MessageId>cb65864a.0401270106.40652fe3@posting.google.com</MessageId>
      <Dated>2004/01/27 09:06:43</Dated>
      <Body>
        <p>You still have not shown that this is a mutation that caused these
        benificial changes in the person. How do you know it was a mutation
        that caused this and not a designed backup system? Also how do you
        know this is an evolutionary mutation would be passed to children and
        not just a fluke?</p>
      </Body>
    </Message>
  </Round>
  <Round>
    <Point>I challenge my opponent to provide any empirical evidence for his claim that helpful mutations do not exist.</Point>
    <Message>
      <Challenge/>
      <MessageId>5200cbc.0401191646.37f75de4@posting.google.com</MessageId>
      <Dated>2004/01/20 00:47:50</Dated>
      <Body>
        <p>My opponent stated in his opening statement from Round 1, "The theory
        of evolution depends that helpful mutations can happen. So there is a
        serious problem with the theory of evolution because helpful mutations
        do not exist."</p>
        <p>My challenge is this: <f>I challenge my opponent to provide any empirical
        evidence for his claim that helpful mutations do not exist.</f></p>
      </Body>
    </Message>
    <Message>
      <Author>Nowhere Man</Author>
      <MessageId>cb65864a.0401272107.4194d627@posting.google.com</MessageId>
      <Dated>2004/01/28 05:09:01</Dated>
      <Body>
        <p>You misunderstand the debate format. I start the argument and then we
        reply back and forth until the arguement is settled. You can't change
        the debate topic. I am as educated as anyone on evolution so I don't
        appreciate you critisizing my knowledge. Maybe you should try to
        answer my questions. Playing dumb is not going to cut it. I said from
        the begining that I was not going to go easy on you. It is nothing
        personal. If you try to get out of this debate everyone is going to
        see it and it will reflect badly upon you like the last one. You know
        very well what a designed backup system is. It is exactly what it
        sounds like. A backup system that was designed into the human genome
        for if things go wrong. You have no way to tell a mutation caused the
        changes you talk about. You just assume that it must have been a
        mutation because you assume evolution can create things. Where is
        evidence that this is caused by a mutation and not something else more
        reasonable like a backup system? Did you see the protien get mutated
        youself? Who saw it? Where is the support for this theory?</p>
      </Body>
    </Message>
    <Message>
      <Author>Nowhere Man</Author>
      <MessageId>cb65864a.0402021811.53540af0@posting.google.com</MessageId>
      <Dated>2004/02/03 02:10:29</Dated>
      <Body>
        <p>All you who are involved in the debate should be ashamed of yourselves
        for your bevahior. It is like you dont even understand how dishonest
        you are being. I found all your posts on Google where you made fun of
        me and called me childish names and made up excuses to justify your
        behavior and your antigod evolution based beliefs. You can go on and
        live your lives like this or you can make a change and try to be
        honest. I am honest about Truth and God and I am open to questions and
        study and even real debate. But you can't have a real debate because
        you are not honest. I never agreed to a rule that says the debate
        topic will change every post. I agreed to a debate where one person
        makes and argument and the other person makes a responce and then they
        repeat until the argument is concluded. After one post you try to hide
        from my direct questions about mutations. If you can't answer them
        just admit it. Don't pretend like youre having a real debate and don't
        pretend like it's all my fault for violating some rule. If you can't
        stick on topic then what's the point of a debate? Answer me that. We
        already know what everybodys opinons are. Whats the point in just
        repeating them? You should all be ashamed. And answer me this. What is
        so one sided abouy my rules. They are completly fair. You just say
        over and over they are designed for me to win. Well then what about
        the rules is designed for me? Is it the honesty and fairness rule
        (well I guess that one is in my favor)? Is it the judges? Is it the
        rule that says you have to make posts that are reasonable in size?
        Please tell me. I would like to know. You can't tell me and you don't
        have an answer because you know you're wrong. That is all there is to
        it. When youre ready for a real debate and ready to hear Truth then
        give me call. I am honest and will share God's Truth with all. You can
        laugh and snicker but you can't claim that its my fault that the
        debate didnt work out. It's all yours.</p>
      </Body>
    </Message>
    <Message>
      <Author>Grinder</Author>
      <MessageId>bvn1mg02fma@enews1.newsguy.com</MessageId>
      <Dated>2004/02/03 02:39:47</Dated>
      <Body>
        <q>All you who are involved in the debate should be ashamed of yourselves
        for your bevahior. It is like you dont even understand how dishonest
        you are being. I found all your posts on Google where you made fun of
        me and called me childish names and made up excuses to justify your
        behavior and your antigod evolution based beliefs. You can go on and
        live your lives like this or you can make a change and try to be
        honest. I am honest about Truth and God and I am open to questions and
        study and even real debate. But you can't have a real debate because
        you are not honest. I never agreed to a rule that says the debate
        topic will change every post.</q>
        <p>You most certainly did.  Rememember this email reply you made:</p>
        <q>
        <p>Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 11:10:25 -0800 (PST)<br/>
        From: "Nowhere Man" &lt;some_where_man@yahoo.com&gt;<br/>
        Subject: Re: Latest Set of Debate Rules<br/>
        To: "Chastity Letterman" &lt;chastity403@yahoo.com&gt;</p>
        <p>--</p>
        <p>I confirm.</p>
        <p>NM</p>
        
        <p>Chastity Letterman &lt;chastity403@yahoo.com&gt; wrote:</p>
        <p>CL> In a few hours, a posting the (I think) reflects your<br/>
        CL> and Lilith's agreed upon terms should appear in this<br/>
        CL> thread:</p>
        <p>CL> <a href="http://www.google.com/groups?threadm=btahkj011f1@enews1.newsguy.com">http://www.google.com/groups?threadm=btahkj011f1@enews1.newsguy.com</a></p>
        <p>CL> Please confirm that this is so, and I'll start the<br/>
        CL> closed debate thread.</p>
        </q>
        <p><e>snip</e></p>
      </Body>
    </Message>
    <Message>
      <Author>Nowhere Man</Author>
      <MessageId>cb65864a.0402030953.5e451495@posting.google.com</MessageId>
      <Dated>2004/02/03 18:23:58</Dated>
      <Body>
        <p>Alot of people are saying that I can continue to challenge Lillith
        about mutations. And all I have to do is answer her question. Is this
        true judges? If it is then where do I post my reply now. One of the
        judges led me to believe I could not even reply. Of course thats not
        true. I will reply at once if I can and if I can keep challenging
        Lillith about mutations. That is what the whole point is.</p>
      </Body>
    </Message>
    <Message>
      <Author>Daniel Harper</Author>
      <MessageId>pan.2004.02.03.21.15.39.275852@terralink.net</MessageId>
      <Dated>2004/02/03 21:07:04</Dated>
      <Body>
        <p>You should feel free to challenge anyone on this board about any topic you
        like, so long as it's related to origins. But your second debate, like
        your first, is now officially over. You lost, largely due to your own
        obfuscation and insults against your opponent and two of your judges. You
        have proven that you aren't ready to debate with the big boys and girls;
        try learning some biology before you try to debate someone on the topic
        again.</p>
      </Body>
    </Message>
    <Message>
      <Rebuttal/>
      <MessageId>cb65864a.0402031853.36d4328e@posting.google.com</MessageId>
      <Dated>2004/02/04 02:53:25</Dated>
      <Body>
        <p>My response to Lillith's challenge: You are asking for me to provide
        evidence that there have been no observed helpful mutations (which by
        the way did not appear in your post). The problem is that anyone who
        thinks about it can see that you cant provide evidence for a claim
        that something does not exist. You can only prove me wrong by showing
        that that thing does exist. So your challenge is oxymoronic.</p>
      </Body>
    </Message>
  </Round>
  <Round>
    <Point>I challenge you to tell when this mutation was observed happening. What was the scientist's name who watched the actual DNA mutate and watched it turn into benificial changes.</Point>
    <Message>
      <Challenge/>
      <MessageId>cb65864a.0402031853.36d4328e@posting.google.com</MessageId>
      <Dated>2004/02/04 02:53:25</Dated>
      <Body>
        <p>My next challenge to Lillith: I do not believe that your eledged
        mutation is what cause these benificial changes. I believe this is
        just a backup system designed by God into the human genome. <f>I
        challenge you to tell when this mutation was observed happening. What
        was the scientist's name who watched the actual DNA mutate and watched
        it turn into benificial changes.</f></p>
      </Body>
    </Message>
  </Round>
  <Protocol>
    <Rule>
      Ethical Guidelines
      <Sub>
        <Rule>
          No personal attacks. (1a)
        </Rule>
        <Rule>
          No illogical statements. (1b)
        </Rule>
        <Rule>
          No arguments from authority. (1c)
        </Rule>
        <Rule>
          No arguments from incredulity. (1d)
        </Rule>
        <Rule>
          Definitions should be presented for all terms. (1e)
        </Rule>
        <Rule>
          References should be presented for new evidence. (1f)
        </Rule>
      </Sub>
    </Rule>
    <Rule>
      Structure
      <Sub>
        <Rule>
          Debate should remain between the two debaters. Only statements within the debate thread and between the debaters should be considered. Posts from those outside the debate should be ignored and do not effect the actual debate. (2a, 2b)
        </Rule>
        <Rule>
          The debate will be an exchange of posts. Each initial post will be a challenge, the follow-up a rebuttal.  For example: (addendum #2)
          <q>
            Set 1:  Post 1: NWM's challenge. Post 2: Lilith's rebuttal.<br/>
            Set 2:  Post 3: Lilith's challenge. Post 4: NWM's rebuttal. <br/>
            Set 3:  (etc)
          </q>
          <Sub>
            <Rule>
              There will be 10 challenge-rebuttal Sets, at which time the debate will be ended. This means each party gets to challenge 5 times, and must write a rebuttal 5 times. (addendum #3)
            </Rule>
            <Rule>
              There will be no follow-up posting to the rebuttals in the official structure of the debate. Just challenge-rebuttal format. (addendum #6)
            </Rule>
            <Rule>
              Each posting must not exceed 15360 bytes (15 kb) of ASCII text.
              <Sub>
                <Rule>
                  Definitions of new terms used in the debate will not count towards the space limit but should be appropriately succinct at the beginning of each post. (addendum #11)
                </Rule>
                <Rule>
                  A proper scientific referencing section (the actual lines of reference to author/journal/etc) will count towards the 15KB space requirement. (addendum #10 recinded)
                </Rule>
              </Sub>
            </Rule>
          </Sub>
        </Rule>
        <Rule>
          Challenges
          <Sub>
            <Rule>
              A Challenge is only one point offered within one sentence of under 100 words, and must be supported by reference to peer-reviewed scientific literature or data. Of course, the total post including references to data can be up to 15KB, but the challenge point must be short and succinct. (addenda #4)
              <Sub>
                <Rule>
                  Reference calls within the challenge sentence do not count towards the 100 word limit.  (addenda #4)
                </Rule>
              </Sub>
            </Rule>
            <Rule>
              One major point is allowed paragraph. An exception can be made if two points can only be stated together. (2d)
            </Rule>
            <Rule>
              The challenge must be based in scientific evidence. For instance, "Adam and Eve existed" will be allowed as a challenge, as long as there is repeatable scientific evidence in the peer-reviewed scientific literature to support that point (fossil evidence, for example). As my opponent has originally claimed that creationism is as scientific as the science supporting evolution, this should be acceptable. (addenda #4)
            </Rule>
          </Sub>
        </Rule>
        <Rule>
          Rebuttals
          <Sub>
            <Rule>
              Each major point in the challenge should be responded to. (2f)
            </Rule>
            <Rule>
              Rebuttals should reply to each paragraph in it's entirety without separating paragraph text. (2e)
            </Rule>
            <Rule>
              Rebuttals must be written with scientific literature supporting each rebuttal point. For instance, the debater rebutting "Adam and Eve existed" must make all points in rebuttal with evidence (single or multiple evidence) from the scientific literature (genetic evidence, paleontological evidence, etc) from as many scientific peer-reviewed sources as necessary and that fit in discussion within the 15KB. (addenda #5)
            </Rule>
          </Sub>
        </Rule>
        <Rule>
          Although only the two debaters are allowed to participate in the debate, they may call on outside resources for help. This includes both natural and supernatural entities. (2g)
        </Rule>
        <Rule>
          Responders will be allowed up to [what, if any, time limit?] to respond. (2h)
        </Rule>
      </Sub>
    </Rule>
    <Rule>
      Evidence
      <Sub>
        <Rule>
          Evidence must be factual and empirical. It must be factual in the sense that it is shown beyond reasonable doubt. It must be empirical in the sense that the observation can be repeated by others. Vague memories, stories from parents, things heard from friends, and orange colored books do not qualify.
        </Rule>
        <Rule>
          The term "peer-reviewed scientific literature" is defined as the following: the entity in which the data is published must have as its publishing requirement a review and critique of any submitted article by a panel of scientific experts in that scientific field in which the data is presented. An editorial review of an author's article (such as found in Time or Newsweek) does not count as "peer review". However, large data sources (such as the human genome assembly) first published in the peer-reviewed literature are allowed to be used as evidence. (addenda #9)
        </Rule>
      </Sub>
    </Rule>
    <Rule>
      Judges
      <Sub>
        <Rule>
          Three judges will oversee and moderate the debate. (3)
        </Rule>
        <Rule>
          At any time a respondant may ask for a "judgment call". 
          <Sub>
            <Rule>
              This should be done *before* the actual response to an opponent. This should be a separate post that states what rules have been broken, as well as the relevant text. Both parties should wait silently for a ruling. After all three judges have ruled, the discussion will continue. (3a)
            </Rule>
            <Rule>
              If the ruling is in the favor of the defendant, the plaintiff continue and respond to the post as normal. (3aI)
            </Rule>
            <Rule>
              If the ruling is in the favor of the plaintiff, the plaintiff should wait for the defendant to correct his mistake. This defendant should repost his entire offending post with the corrected text in place. (3aII)
            </Rule>
          </Sub>
        </Rule>
        <Rule>
          If at any time a debater adamantly refuses to adhere to a ruling of the judges, the debater will be disqualified and shown unfit for debate. (3b)
        </Rule>
        <Rule>
          If a debater feels 1) the opponent has repeated an invalid point and 2) the debater has no original points regarding the topic discussion, he may call "check". The responder must cover all points in the "check" post as usual and must also provide an original response to the checked point as well. (3c)
          <Sub>
            <Rule>
              After a response has been made, if the debater feels the new point is not original, he may call "checkmate". The responder is given another chance to generate a new approach to the topic. Both debaters must then wait for the judges to rule on the checkmate. If the judges rule against the defendant, he has lost. (3cI)
            </Rule>
          </Sub>
        </Rule>
        <Rule>
          If a post is found to be over 15KB according to the standard of measure, the author of the post is given an amount of time (3-4 days?) in which to cut down the size of the post before re-posting. (addenda #11)
        </Rule>
      </Sub>
    </Rule>
  </Protocol>
</Debate>
