IRC Logs - Fear and Control

[02:54] <meshell{LG}> Can a Master control through love alone, or does it take an element of fear as well?
[02:54] * meshell{LG} looks at willo
[02:54] -willo[C]- me first?
[02:54] <meshell{LG}> ahuh
[02:54] <London_Guy> you know my views... so willo[C] over to you
[02:56] -willo[C]- firstly a Master cannot control what the submissive does not offer... true control is achieved through love, through understanding of both's needs, through trust, thru communication and trial and error... through the offering... control by fear is not "true" control at all, not in the sense of the lifestyle
[02:56] * meshell{LG} smiles
[02:57] <London_Guy> okay, willo did you want to add to that ?
[02:58] * willo[C] is lurking on a however
[02:58] * willo[C] grins
[02:58] * London_Guy waits for willo to finish?
[02:58] -willo[C]- have you ever heard of edge play?
[02:58] <London_Guy> yep
[02:58] -willo[C]- and I don't mean edges as in knives...
[02:58] -willo[C]- I mean pushing someone to the edge of their limits
[02:59] <London_Guy> but there are two meanings I have come across in the life style
[02:59] <London_Guy> ahhhh okay
[02:59] -willo[C]- there is an element of fear, but a healthy fear that is instilled into this sort of practice
[02:59] -willo[C]- it's a different sort of control... there are many levels just as there are many levels of submission...
[03:00] -willo[C]- there are some that desire to be controlled in such a way that they are brought to the edge of their fear
[03:01] -willo[C]- but it's their fear, and not the Master instilling it... the Master pushes it
[03:01] <London_Guy> well, fear is part of D/s . it would be naive to deny that
[03:02] -willo[C]- it's a type of control... that's all... there are many different kinds.... but I would finish up this question that even with edge play, and even with having limits topped.. it's done through love... love is the basis of control
[03:02] -willo[C]- ok next question, this is fun LOL
[03:02] * willo[C] grins
[03:02] <London_Guy> fear in physical scening is part of the excitement .. and works once the submissive has trust and confidence in her Master
[03:03] <London_Guy> but I dont see that fear as one of a means of control .....
[03:03] -willo[C]- it is when it exceeds the bedroom scene....
[03:04] <London_Guy> let me quote the bible a bit
[03:04] -willo[C]- but is only used after a high level of trust has been established...
[03:04] * willo[C] tilts her head and smiles
[03:04] <London_Guy> there is a commandment to both love and fear G.d
[03:04] * willo[C] listens
[03:04] <London_Guy> to love and fear parents too
[03:05] * willo[C] nods
[03:05] <London_Guy> why is that necessary .. surely if we realise that G.d created us and provides for us and all that our parents have done for us ... we should need love alone ....
[03:06] <London_Guy> the problem is .. we love ourselves too and so when the love of G.d or our parents is challenged by the love of ourselves .. then a struggle pursues
[03:07] <London_Guy> in D/s control thorugh love has a high price for the submissive ...
[03:07] <London_Guy> it increases her feelings of guilt when she fails
[03:08] -willo[C]- ew, it does
[03:08] <London_Guy> so there needs to be a balance ...
[03:08] <London_Guy> primarily control is given through trust and love ... but it is supported by fear in times of challenge and struggle ....
[03:09] <London_Guy> there is a healthy fear imo and an unheathly one ..
[03:09] * willo[C] agrees
[03:10] <London_Guy> fear of discipline is healthy provided that the submissive trusts her Master ...
[03:10] <London_Guy> fear of losing her Master is unhealthy imo
[03:10] <London_Guy> so as I say I feel there has to be a balance
[03:10] <London_Guy> *fin* *g*
[03:11] * willo[C] thinks for a moment
[03:16] -willo[C]- I'm struggling with not turning this into a semantic issue.... hmmm... as in everything, a balance needs to be achieved in control.... one has to give, the other has to take.. love is the basis of the control of a submissive, but I think it is balanced/supported with respect
[03:17] -willo[C]- actually it's balanced or supported with many issues... the trust, compassion, communication, etc... but I don't think fear is the balancing factor... I don't fear my Master's discipline, I crave it so I can do better for him
[03:17] <London_Guy> well, respect and it is a two way street underpins the whole relationship
[03:17] <London_Guy> as regards fear of discipline .. well
[03:17] <London_Guy> you confirm my suspicions
[03:18] -willo[C]- which are?
[03:18] <London_Guy> that physical discipline is not effective as a means of control but discipline is not only used a means of control
[03:18] <London_Guy> however
[03:18] -willo[C]- ooooooooooooo heck no it isn't LOL
[03:19] <London_Guy> other forms of discupline can be effective
[03:19] -willo[C]- especially when the sub likes the physical :)
[03:19] <London_Guy> I will give you an example
[03:19] * willo[C] listens
[03:20] <London_Guy> if meshell{LG} feared I would not allow her to go somewhere, do something she wants to do ... that I believe becomes effective as a control, when all else fails when the love, respect etc is just not enough to win the struggle which after all she wants to win
[03:22] <London_Guy> I suspect that physical discipline fulfills an entirely different role
[03:22] <London_Guy> it reestablishes the submissive needs that may have been lost when she failed in whatever she failed at
[03:22] <London_Guy> not needs
[03:22] <London_Guy> feelings ?
[03:23] -willo[C]- understood....
[03:23] -willo[C]- needs actually worked as well
[03:23] <London_Guy> k
[03:24] <London_Guy> maybe willo[C] the mark of true submissive although I hate that term
[03:24] -willo[C]- i use natural... instead of true lol
[03:24] <London_Guy> is whether she can submit to more than just the physical discipline, which lets be honest is something which both Master and submissive get excitement from
[03:25] * willo[C] nods and laughs
[03:25] <London_Guy> hmmmmmmm
[03:25] -willo[C]- a spanking could ever be used as punishment on me, personally... Master knows I enjoy it too much
[03:26] * London_Guy smiles
[03:26] -willo[C]- ok I'm trying to think of a good way to word something that's circling around in my head to respond to this...
[03:26] -willo[C]- I don't respond to fear as a use of outright control
[03:27] -willo[C]- if Master starts to push that way, my only response is to push back
[03:27] -willo[C]- it doesn't work with me personally, and isn't needed in my relationship
[03:27] -willo[C]- but also, discipline actually isn't done by the Master in my opinion
[03:28] -willo[C]- after all we're adults, we do ultimately make our own choices
[03:28] -willo[C]- if meshell really wanted to go somewhere... she'd go
[03:28] -willo[C]- but out of respect for you, and seeing what you are trying to teach her... she would accept that discipline
[03:29] <London_Guy> I agree .. but *lol*
[03:29] -willo[C]- LOL
[03:29] -willo[C]- go ahead
[03:30] <London_Guy> the discipline she accepts out of respect but she would in the first place not want to have to be there ... so she would fear that .. knowing that if I disciplined her that way . she would do it
[03:31] <London_Guy> but as I say it is a matter of balance
[03:31] <London_Guy> if control is primarily from fear the respect will die soon enough
[03:31] -willo[C]- it's turned into a matter of semantics... what you call fear is not necessarily what I would call it in that sort of case
[03:31] -willo[C]- true true
[03:33] <London_Guy> let me turn it on you can I willo[C] just to look at it from an entirely different angle ?
[03:33] -willo[C]- the only thing I truly fear is disappointment... I would much rather take a lash of a whip than a look of disappointment on my Master's face... yet, that's not a fear he instilled on me...
[03:33] -willo[C]- sure
[03:34] <London_Guy> lets say that you failed your Master .. it matters not how ...
[03:34] * willo[C] nods
[03:34] <London_Guy> and he says well as a matter of discipline you may not go somewhere you wanted to go .....
[03:34] -willo[C]- ok
[03:35] <London_Guy> as you say, you are submissive, so you go through with it .. it hurts of course ... but ..
[03:36] <London_Guy> afterwards would you get any sense of satisfaction from your own submission that you went ahead and accepted the discipline for after all as you say .. the choice is yours we are all adults
[03:36] * willo[C] nods
[03:36] <London_Guy> is that a yes ?
[03:38] -willo[C]- yes.... a sense of satisfaction that the hurt has passed, and that a lesson has been learned
[03:39] <London_Guy> okay I wanted to know that, I felt perhaps my question was too leading
[03:39] <London_Guy> I mean
[03:39] <London_Guy> I wanted to know that from a submissives perspective .. for you see
[03:40] <London_Guy> it hurts a Master just as much to do that and I guess ...
[03:40] <London_Guy> in some ways, we too, look for a morsel of comfort somewhere
[03:40] <London_Guy> my buzz is when meshell{LG} succeeds and submits to me
[03:41] * willo[C] knows... the term "this hurts me more than it hurts you" becomes literal, but in both cases...
[03:41] -willo[C]- Master's as well...
[03:41] <London_Guy> not when I get to discipline her for not and as you say spanking is probably no real discipline
[03:42] -willo[C]- but the satisfaction for ME personally does not come from having the fear eradicated... for there never was a fear... personally... there is nothing in me that could fear my Master.. there is everything in me that could fear my own self
[03:42] -willo[C]- in my experience, spanking is no discipline... and should be left as something pleasureful
[03:43] <London_Guy> self fear is never strong enough alone willo[C] .. if it were there would be no need of prisons
[03:44] <London_Guy> and I agree you should not fear your Master
[03:44] <London_Guy> but perhaps only the discipline he can impose and you will accept
[03:44] -willo[C]- how can I fear something I crave?
[03:45] -willo[C]- and I don't think the peeps in prison are submissive LOL
[03:45] <London_Guy> well we agreed spanking may be no discipline ,, so I am not referring to that
[03:45] <meshell{LG}> rofl
[03:45] -willo[C]- self fear in a submissive is a powerful tool
[03:45] -willo[C]- if used correctly
[03:46] -willo[C]- no... I crave discipline, corrective means.... whatever form it comes in, when I know I've done wrong I need to atone... it's my way
[03:46] <meshell{LG}> Master, she has said she craves discipline in all forms, she needs and wants that correction, to help her succeed in pleasing her Master... therefore she cannot fear something she craves?
[03:46] <meshell{LG}> Have I read this right?
[03:46] -willo[C]- exactly sis
[03:46] <London_Guy> we are all submissive to ourselves .. willo[C] .. we have desires to good and desires to do evil .. we submit to them . the self fear of doing evil is not always strong enough alone
[03:47] <London_Guy> meshell{LG} can I speak about the other day ?
[03:48] <London_Guy> ok
[03:49] <meshell{LG}> ummmmmmmmm, I have a feeling I am not going to like this
[03:49] <meshell{LG}> But Yes, Master
[03:49] <London_Guy> well let me ask you .. do you fear having to go through that in main again, that which I asked you to do ?
[03:50] <meshell{LG}> Of course
[03:50] <London_Guy> do you crave it ?
[03:50] <meshell{LG}> No
[03:51] * willo[C] listens quietly
[03:51] <London_Guy> so my point is ,, there are forms of correction that a submissive will fear and not crave at all , even though she may get a sense of satisfaction in herself afterwards
[03:52] <London_Guy> I was very proud of you that you went through with it .. but make no mistake .. give me the choice it is ,,,,,
[03:52] <London_Guy> enough that I know you would do it ,, and to see you do t
[03:52] <London_Guy> ackkkk
[03:52] <London_Guy> and NOT to see you do it
[03:52] <London_Guy> I meant
[03:55] -willo[C]- ok well.... here's a personalization again :) the correction you speak of is humiliation... it was humiliating for her to some point, I assume... but here, Master wouldn't use humiliation as a form of correction... because we both know the way I would respond... he cannot control me that way because I do not give it to him
[03:57] <London_Guy> if that were a hard limit of meshell{LG}s I would not use it either but I would want to find something else within her limits that was as effective
[03:58] * willo[C] nods
[03:59] -willo[C]- fear is not the way, in my opinion
[04:00] * meshell{LG} smiles and huggggless willo
[04:01] * willo[C] smiles and huggggggles her sis
[04:01] -willo[C]- but opinions vary, styles and techniques vary... couple to couple :)
[04:01] * meshell{LG} cant help but wonder what willo's Master might find constructive about this late night
[04:01] -willo[C]- LOL
[04:01] * meshell{LG} giggles
[04:02] <London_Guy> willo[C] dont misunderstand me here
[04:02] -willo[C]- a good conversation and thought provoking topic.... is constructive because it's worked my mind
[04:02] * meshell{LG} grins
[04:02] <meshell{LG}> good!
[04:03] <London_Guy> it is my desire for meshell{LG} to succeed and more than that .. I do not demand of her, that which I do not believe is for her best .. sometimes to achieve that I believe discipline is necessary and discipline needs to be effective
[04:04] -willo[C]- I agree
[04:04] <London_Guy> do I believe that the fear of disappointment is enough .. no, I dont not in all cases .. if it were, I too would be more successful in my own life along with 1,000,000s of others
[04:05] -willo[C]- LOL
[04:05] <London_Guy> will I make mistakes with meshell{LG} .. yes I will I am human
[04:06] * willo[C] nodsnods
[04:06] -willo[C]- as meshell and I will make mistakes, we are human as well after all
[04:06] * meshell{LG} nods and nods and nods and nods and NODS
[04:06] <London_Guy> its up to her to judge how many mistakes she allows me before she loses confidence or she suspects I am no longer acting in her interests
[04:07] <London_Guy> yep and I agree willo[C] .. I have again told meshell{LG} many times that failings do not a failure make ,, what is important is how we recover from them
[04:07] * willo[C] nods
[04:08] <London_Guy> meshell{LG} recovers well, I was immensely proud of her the other day
[04:08] -willo[C]- which makes the need of discipline a failure, not
[04:08] * willo[C] smiles
[04:09] -willo[C]- mistakes are but something to learn from...
[04:09] <London_Guy> the "use" of discipline implies a failure for both submissive and Master
[04:09] -willo[C]- that's life
[04:09] <London_Guy> we are human and will be challenged by what is right Vs what we want always
[04:10] -willo[C]- the internal struggle of good and evil... it's what makes us human
[04:11] <London_Guy> yep .. thats true .. and as humans we will fail and therefore we need barriers to support us .. fear is one of them
[04:12] -willo[C]- yes, and is not the only one....
[04:12] <London_Guy> I agree
[04:14] <London_Guy> we have been blessed with many facets we see as negative when in reality they are positive too
[04:14] -willo[C]- LG... I completely agree.. fear CAN be used to balance control... I do see what you are saying and have not misunderstood... it's just not always the case... we're a diverse world
[04:14] <London_Guy> true :)
[04:15] -willo[C]- that's the different sides of opinion.. what is negative for one may be a positive light for another