Jimmy Page interview with Guitar Player Magazine (continued)
How is that descending riff done?
With a metal slide and backwards echo. I think I came up with that before anybody. I know it's been used a lot now, but not at the time. I thought of it on this Mickie Most thing. In fact, some of the things that might sound a bit odd have, in fact, backwards echo on them, as well.
What kind of effect are you using on the beginning of "Ramble On" [Led Zeppelin II]?
If I can remember correctly, it's like harmony feedback, and then it changes. To be more specific, most of the tracks just start off bass, drums, and guitar, and once you've done the drums and bass, you just build everything up afterwards. It's like a starting point, and you start constructing from square one.
Is the rest of the band in the studio when you put down the solos?
No, never. I don't like anybody else in the studio when I'm putting on the guitar parts. I usually just limber up for a while and then maybe do three solos and take the best of three.
Is there an electric 12-string on "Thank You" [Led Zeppelin]?
Yes. I think it's a Fender or Rickenbacker.
What is the effect on "Out on the Tiles" [Led Zeppelin III]?
Now that is exactly what I was talking about: close-miking and distance-miking; that's ambient sound. Getting the distance of the time lag from one end of the room to the other and putting that in as well. The whole idea, the way I see recording, is to try and capture the sound of the room live and the emotion of the whole moment and try to convey that. That's the very essence of it. And so, consequently, you've got to capture as much of the room sound as possible.
On "Tangerine" [Led Zeppelin III] it sounds as if you're playing a pedal steel.
I am. And on the first LP there's a pedal steel. I had never played steel before, but I just picked it up. There's a lot of things I do first time around that I haven't done before. In fact, I hadn't touched a pedal steel from the first album to the third. It's a bit of a pinch really from the things that Chuck Berry did. Nevertheless, it fits. I use pedal steel in "Your Time is Gonna Come" [Led Zeppelin]. It sounds like a slide or something. It's more out of tune on the first album because I hadn't got a kit to put it together.
You've also played other stringed instruments on records?
"Gallows Pole" [Led Zeppelin III] was the first time for banjo, and on "The Battle of Evermore," [Led Zeppelin IV] a mandolin was lying around. It wasn't mine, it was Jonesey's. I just picked it up, got the chords, and it sort of started happening. I did it more or less straight off. But, you see, that's fingerpicking again, going back to the studio days and developing a certain amount of technique -- at least enough to be adapted and used. My fingerpicking is a sort of cross between Pete Seeger, Earl Scruggs, and total incompetence.
The fourth album was the first time you used a double-neck?
I didn't use a doubleneck on that, but I had to get one afterwards to play "Stairway to Heaven." I did all those guitars on it; I just built them up. That was the beginning of my building up harmonized guitars properly. "Ten Years Gone" [Physical Graffiti] was an extension of that, and then "Achilles' Last Stand" [Presence] is like the essential flow of it really, because there was no time to think things out; I just had to more or less lay it down on the first track. It was really fast working on Presence. And I did all the guitar overdubs on that LP in one night. There were only two sequences. The rest of the band, not Robert, but the rest of them I don't think really could see it to begin with. They didn't know what the hell I was going to do with it. But I wanted to give each section its own identity, and I think it came off really good. I didn't think I'd be able to do it in one night; I thought I'd have to do it in the course of three different nights to get the individual sections. But I was so into it that my mind was working properly for a change. It sort of crystallized and everything was just pouring out. I was very happy with the guitar on that whole album as far as the maturity of the playing goes.
When you started playing the doubleneck did it require a new approach on your part?
Yes. The main thing is, there's an effect you can get where you leave the 12-string neck on and play on the 6-string neck, and you get the 12-strings vibrating in sympathy. It's like an Indian sitar, and I've worked on that a little bit. I use it on "Stairway" like that -- not on the album but on the soundtrack and film. It's surprising; it doesn't vibrate as heavily as a sitar would, but nonetheless, it does add to the overall tonal quality.
You think your playing on Led Zeppelin IV is the best you've ever done?
Without a doubt, as far as consistency and the quality of playing on a whole album. But I don't know what the best solo I've ever done is -- I have no idea. My vocation is more in composition, really, than in anything else. Building up harmonies, orchestrating the guitar like an army -- a guitar army -- I think that's where it's at, really, for me. I'm talking about actual orchestration in the same way you'd orchestrate a classical piece of music. Instead of using brass and violins you treat the guitars with synthesizers or other devices; give them different treatments, so that they have enough frequency range and scope and everything to keep the listener as totally committed to it as the player is. It's a difficult project, but it's the one I've got to do.
Have you done anything towards this end already?
Only on these three tunes: "Stairway to Heaven," "Ten Years Gone," and "Achilles Last Stand," the way the guitar is building. I can see certain milestones along the way, like "Four Sticks" [Led Zeppelin IV], in the middle section of that. The sounds of those guitars -- that's where I'm going. I've got long pieces written; I've got one really long one written that's harder to play than anything. It's sort of classical, but then it goes through changes from that mood to really laid-back rock, and then to really intensified stuff. With a few laser notes thrown in, we might be all right.
What is the amplifier setup you're using now?
Onstage? Marshall 100s that are customized in New York so they've got 200 watts. I've got four unstacked cabinets, and I've got a wah-wah pedal and an MXR unit. Everything else is total flash [laughs]. I've got a harmonizer, a theremin, a violin bow, and an Echoplex echo unit.
Are there certain settings you use on the amp?
Depending on the acoustics of the place, the volume is up to about three, and the rest is pretty standard.
When was the first time you used the violin bow?
The first time I recorded with it was with the Yardbirds. But the idea was put to me by a classical string player when I was doing studio work. One of us tried to bow the guitar, then we tried it between us, and it worked. At that point I was just bowing it, but other effects I've obviously come up with on my own -- using wah-wah and echo. You have to put rosin on the bow, and the rosin sticks to the string and makes it vibrate.
What kind of picks and strings do you use?
Herco heavy-gauge nylon picks and Ernie Ball Super Slinky strings.
What guitars are you using?
God, this is really hard, there are so many. My Les Paul, the usual one, and I've got a spare one of those if anything goes wrong. I've got a doubleneck; and one of those Fender string-benders that was made for me by Gene Parsons [former drummer with the Byrds and the Flying Burrito Brothers]. I've cut it back from what I was going to use on tour. I have with me a Martin and a Gibson A-4 mandolin. The Martin is one of the cheap ones; it's not the one with the herringbone back or anything like that. It's probably a D-18, it's got those nice Grovers [tuning machines] on it. I've got a Gibson Everly Brothers, which was given to me by Ronnie Wood [guitarist with the Rolling Stones]. That's the current favorite, but I don't take it on the road because it's a really personal guitar. I keep it with me in the room. It's a beauty; it's fantastic. There's only a few of those around; Ron's got one, and [Rolling Stones guitarist] Keith Richards has one, and I've got one. So it's really nice. I haven't had a chance to use it on record yet, but I will because it's got such a nice sound. Let's see, what else have we got? I know when I come onstage it looks like a guitar shop, the way they're all standing up there. But I sold off all my guitars before I left for America; there was a lot of old stuff hanging around which I didn't need. It's no point having things if you don't need them. When all the equipment came over here, we had done our rehearsals, and we were really on top, really in tip-top form. Then Robert caught laryngitis, and we had to postpone a lot of dates and reshuffle them, and I didn't touch a guitar for about five weeks. I got a bit panicky about that -- after two years off the road that's a lot to think about. And I'm still only warming up; I still can't coordinate a lot of the things I need to be doing. Getting by, but it's not right; I don't feel 100 percent right yet.
What year is the Les Paul you're using now?
1959. It's been rescraped [repainted], but that's all gone now because it chopped off. [Eagles guitarist] Joe Walsh got it for me.
Do you think when you went from the Telecaster to the Les Paul that your playing changed?
Yes, I think so. It's more of a fight with a Telecaster, but there are rewards. The Gibson's got a stereotyped sound maybe. I don't know. But it has a beautiful sustain to it, and I like sustain because it relates to bowed instruments and everything. This whole area that everyone's been pushing and experimenting in, when you think about it, it's mainly sustain.
Do you use special tunings on the electric guitar?
All the time; they're my own that I've worked out, so I'd rather keep those to myself, really. But they're never open tunings; I have used those, but most of the things I've written have not been open tunings, so you can get more chords into them.
Did you ever meet any of those folk players you admire -- Bert Jansch, John Renbourn or any of them?
No, and the most terrifying thing of all happened about a few months ago. Jansch's playing appeared as if it was going down, and it turns out he's got arthritis. I really think he's one of the best. He was, without any doubt, the one who crystallized so many things. As much as Hendrix had done on electric, I think he's done on acoustic. He was really way, way ahead. And for something like that to happen is such a tragedy, with a mind as brilliant as that. There you go. Another player whose physical handicap didn't stop him was Django Reinhardt. For his last LP they pulled him out of retirement to do it; it's on Barclay Records in France. He'd been retired for years, and it's fantastic. You know the story about him in the caravan and losing fingers and such. But the record is just fantastic. He must have been playing all the time to be that good -- it's horrifyingly good. Horrifying. But it's always good to hear perennial players like that; like Les Paul, and people like that.
You listen to Les Paul?
Oh, yeah. You can tell Jeff [Beck] did too, can't you? Have you ever heard "It's Been a Long, Long Time" [mid-'40s single by the Les Paul Trio with Bing Crosby]? You ought to hear that. He does everything on that, everything in one go. And it's just one guitar; it's basically one guitar even though they've tracked on rhythms and stuff. But my goodness, his introductory chords and everything are fantastic. He sets the whole tone, and then he goes into this solo which is fantastic. Now that's where I heard feeedback first -- from Les Paul -- also vibratos and things. Even before B.B. King, you know, I've traced a hell of a lot of rock and roll -- little riffs, and things -- back to Les Paul, Chuck Berry, Cliff Gallup and all those. It's all there. But then Les Paul was influenced by Reinhardt, wasn't he? Very much so. I can't get my hands on the records of Les Paul, the Les Paul trio, and all that stuff. But I've got all the Capitol LPs and things. I mean, he's the father of it all: multi-tracking and everything else. If it hadn't been for him, there wouldn't have been anything, really.
You said that Eric Clapton was the person who synthesized the Les Paul sound?
Yeah, without a doubt. When he was with the Bluesbreakers [British blues band with John Mayall], it was just a magic combination; he got one of the Marshall amps, and away he went. It just happened. I thought he played brilliantly then, really brilliantly. That was very stirring stuff.
Do you think you were responsible for any specific guitar sounds?
The guitar parts in "Trampled Under Foot" [Physical Graffiti], this guy Nick Kent [British rock journalist], he came out with this idea about how he thought that was a really revolutionary sound. And I hadn't realized that anyone would think it was, but I can explain exactly how it's done. Again, it's sort of backwards echo and wah-wah. I don't know how responsible I was for new sounds because there were so many good things happening around that point, around the release of the first Zeppelin album, like Hendrix and Clapton.
Were you focusing on anything in particular on the first Led Zeppelin LP with regards to certain guitar sounds?
The trouble is keeping a separation between sounds, so you don't have the same guitar effect all the time. And that's where that orchestration thing comes in; it's so easy, I've already planned it, it's already there; all the groundwork has been done now. And the dream has been accomplished by the computerized mixing console. The sort of struggle to achieve so many things is over. As I said, I've got two things written, but I'll be working on more. You can hear what I mean on Lucifer Rising [soundtrack for the unreleased Ken Anger film]. You see, I didn't play any guitar on that, apart from one point. That was all other instruments, all synthesizers. Every instrument was given a process so it didn't sound like what it really was -- the voices, drones, mantras, even tabla drums. When you've got a collage of, say, four of these sounds together, people will be drawn right in, because there will be sounds they haven't heard before. That's basically what I'm into: Collages and tissues of sound with emotional intensity and melody, and all that. But you know, there are so many good people around, like John McLaughlin, and people like that. It's a totally different thing than what I'm doing.
Do you think he has a sustaining quality as a guitarist?
He's always had that technique right from when I first knew him when he was working in a guitar shop. I would say he was the best jazz guitarist in England then, in the traditional mode of [jazz stylist] Johnny Smith and Tal Farlow; a combination of those two is exactly what he sounded like. He was easily the best guitarist in England, and he was working in a guitar shop. And that's what I say -- you hear so many good people around under those conditions. I'll tell you one thing, I don't know one musician who's stuck to his guns, who was good in the early days that hasn't come through now with recognition from everybody. [British pop/rock guitarist] Albert Lee, and all these people that seem to be like white elephants, got recognition. I think he's really good, bloody brilliant. He's got one of those string benders, too, but I haven't heard him in ages. But I know that everytime I've heard him, he's bloody better and better.
Do you feel your playing grows all the time?
I've got two different approaches, I'm a schizophrenic guitarist, really. I mean, onstage is totally different than the way that I approach it in the studio. Presence and my control over all the contributing factors to that LP -- the fact that it was done in three weeks, and all the rest of it -- is so good for me. It was just good for everything really, even though it was a very anxious point, and the anxiety shows, group-wise -- you know, "Is Robert going to walk again from his auto accident in Greece?" and all this sort of thing. But I guess the solo in "Achilles' Last Stand" on Presence is in the same tradition as the solo from "Stairway to Heaven" on thefourth LP. It is on that level to me.
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