Jimmy Page interview with Guitar Player Magazine
GP MAGAZINE: Let's start at the beginning. When you first started playing, what was going on musically?
JIMMY PAGE: I got really stimulated by hearing early rock and roll, knowing that something was going on that was being suppressed by the media which it really was at the time. You had to stick by the radio and listen to overseas radio to even hear good rock records -- like Little Richard and things like that. The record that made me want to play guitar was "Baby, Let's Play House" by Elvis Presley. I just sort of heard two guitars and bass and thought, "Yeah, I want to be part of this." There was just so much vitality and energy coming out of it.
When did you get your first guitar?
When I was about 14. It was all a matter of trying to pick up tips and stuff. There weren't many method books, really, apart from jazz which had no bearing on rock and roll whatsoever at that time. But that first guitar was a Grazzioso which was like a copy of a Stratocaster; then I got a real Stratocaster; then one of those Gibson "Black Beauties" which stayed with me for a long time until some thieving magpie took it to his nest. That's the guitar I did all the '60s sessions on.
Were your parents musical?
No, not at all. But they didn't mind me getting into it; I think they were quite relieved to see something being done instead of art work, which they thought was a loser's game.
What music did you play when you first started?
I wasn't really playing anything properly. I just knew a few bits of solos and things, not much. I just kept getting records and learning that way. It was the obvious influences at the beginning: Scotty Moore, James Burton, Cliff Gallup -- he was Gene Vincent's guitarist -- Johnny Weeks, later, and those seemed to be the most sustaining influences until I began to hear blues guitarists Elmore James, B.B. King, and people like that. Basically, that was the start: a mixture between rock and blues. Then I stretched out a lot more, and I started doing studio work. I had to branch out, and I did. I might do three sessions a day: A film session in the morning, and then there'd be something like a rock band, and then maybe a folk one in the evening. I didn't know what was coming! But it was a really good disciplinary area to work in, the studio. And it also gave a me a chance to develop on all of the different styles.
Do you remember the first band you were in?
Just friends and things. I played in a lot of different small bands around, but nothing you could ever get any records of.
What kind of music were you playing with [early English rock band] Neil Christian and the Crusaders?
This was before the Stones happened, so we were doing Chuck Berry, Gene Vincent, and Bo Diddley things mainly. At the time, public taste was more engineered toward Top 10 records, so it was a bit of a struggle. But there'd always be a small section of the audience into what we were doing.
Wasn't there a break in your music career at this point?
Yes, I stopped playing and went to art college for about two years, while concentrating more on blues playing on my own. And then I went from art college to the [early British rock mecca] Marquee Club in London. I used to go up and jam on a Thursday night with the interlude band. One night somebody came up and said, "Would you like to play on a record?" and I said, "Yeah, why not?" It did quite well, and that was it after that. I can't remember the title of it now. From that point I started suddenly getting all this studio work. There was a crossroads: Is it an art career or is it going to be music? Well anyway, I had to stop going to the art college because I was really getting into music. Big Jim Sullivan [see GP, January '73] -- who was really brilliant -- and I were the only guitarists doing those sessions. Then a point came where Stax Records [the Memphis-based rhythm and blues label] started influencing music to have more brass and orchestral stuff. The guitar started to take a back trend, and there was just the occasional riff. I didn't realize how rusty I was going to get until a rock and roll session turned up in France, and I couldn't play. I thought it was time to get out, and I did.
You just stopped playing?
������� For a while I just worked on my stuff alone, and then I went to a Yardbirds concert at Oxford, and they were all walking around in their penguin suits. [Lead singer] Keith Relf got really drunk and was saying "Fuck you" right into the mic and falling into the drums. I thought it was a great anarchistic night, and I went back into the dressing room and said, "What a brilliant show!" There was this great argument going on; [bass player] Paul Samwell-Smith saying, "Well, I'm leaving the group, and if I was you, Keith, I'd do the very same thing." So, he left the group, and Keith didn't. But they were stuck, you see, because they had commitments and dates, so I said, "I'll play the bass if you like." And then it worked out that we did the dual guitar thing as soon as [previously on rhythm guitar] Chris Dreja could get it together with the bass, which happened, though not for long. But then came the question of discipline. If you're going to do dual lead guitars riffs and patterns, then you've got to be playing the same things. Jeff Beck had discipline occasionally, but he was an inconsistent player in that when he's on, he's probably the best there is, but at that time, and for a period afterward, he had no respect whatsoever for audiences.
You were playing acoustic guitar during your session period?
Yes, I had to do it on studio work. And you come to grips with it very quickly too, very quickly, because it's what is expected. There was a lot of busking [singing on street corners] in the earlier days, but as I say, I had to come to grips with it, and it was a good schooling.
You were using the Les Paul for those sessions?
The Gibson "Black Beauty" Les Paul Custom. I was one of the first people in England to have one, but I didn't know that then. I just saw it on the wall, had a go with it, and it was good. I traded a Gretsch Chet Atkins I'd had before for the Les Paul.
What kinds of amplifiers were you using for session work?
A small Supro, which I used until someone, I don't know who, smashed it up for me. I'm going to try and get another one. It's like a Harmony amp, I think, and all of the first album [Led Zeppelin] was done on that.
What do you remember most about your early days with the Yardbirds?
One thing is it was chaotic in recording. I mean we did one tune and didn't really know what it was. We had Ian Stewart from the Stones on piano, and we'd just finished the take, and without even hearing it [producer] Mickie Most said, "Next." I said, "I've never worked like this in my life," and he said, "Don't worry about it." It was all done very quickly, as it sounds. It was things like that that really led to the general state of mind and depression of Relf and [drummer] Jim McCarty that broke the group up. I tried to keep it together, but there was no chance; they just wouldn't have it. In fact, Relf said the magic of the band disappeared when Clapton left [British rock/blues guitarist Eric Clapton played with the Yardbirds prior to Beck's joining]. I was really keen on doing anything, though, probably because of having all that studio work and variety beforehand. So it didn't matter what way they wanted to go; they were definitely talented people, but they couldn't really see the woods for the trees at that time.
You thought the best period of the Yardbirds was when Beck was with them?
I did. Giorgio Gomelsky [the Yardbird's manager and producer] was good for him because he got him thinking and attempting new things. That's when they started all sorts of departures. Apparently [co-producer] Simon Napier-Bell sang the guitar riff of "Over Under Sideways Down" [on LP of the same name] to Jeff to demonstrate what he wanted, but I don't know whether that's true or not. I never spoke to him about it. I know the idea of the record was to emulate the sound of the old "Rock Around the Clock"-type record -- that bass and backbeat thing. But it wouldn't be evident at all; every now and again he'd say, "Let's make a record around such and such," and no one would ever know what the example was at the end of the song.
Can you describe some of your musical interaction with Beck during the Yardbirds period?
Sometimes it worked really great, and sometimes it didn't. There were a lot of harmonies that I don't think anyone else had really done, not like we did. The Stones were the only ones who got into two guitars going at the same time, like on old Muddy Waters records. But we were more into solos rather than a rhythm thing. The point is, you've got to have parts worked out, and I'd find that I was doing what I was supposed to, while something totally different was coming from Jeff. That was all right for the areas of improvisation, but there were other parts where it just did not work. You've got to understand that Beck and I came from the same sort of roots. If you've got things you enjoy, then you want to do them -- to the horrifying point where we'd done our first LP [Led Zeppelin] with "You Shook Me," and then I heard he'd done "You Shook Me" [Truth]. I was terrified because I thought they'd be the same. But I hadn't even known he'd done it, and he hadn't known that we had.
Did Beck play bass on "Over Under Sideways Down"?
No. In fact for that LP they just got him in to do the solos because they'd had a lot of trouble with him. But then when I joined the band, he supposedly wasn't going to walk off anymore. Well, he did a couple of times. It's strange: if he'd had a bad day, he'd take it out on the audience. I don't know whether he's the same now; his playing sounds far more consistent on records. You see, on the "Beck's Bolero" [Truth] thing I was working with that, the track was done, and then the producer just disappeared. He was never seen again; he simply didn't come back. Napier-Bell, he just sort of left me and Jeff to it. Jeff was playing and I was in the box [recording booth]. And even though he says he wrote it, I wrote it. I'm playing the electric 12-string on it. Beck's doing the slide bits, and I'm basically playing around the chords. The idea was built around [classical composer] Maurice Ravel's "Bolero." It's got a lot of drama to it; it came off right. It was a good lineup too, with [the Who's drummer] Keith Moon, and everything.
Wasn't that band going to be Led Zeppelin?
It was, yeah. Not Led Zeppelin as a name; the name came afterwards. But it was said afterwards that that's what it could have been called. Because Moony wanted get out of the Who and so did [Who bass player] John Entwhistle, but when it came down to getting a hold of a singer, it was either going to be [guitarist/organist/singer with English pop group Traffic] Steve Winwood or [guitarist/vocalist with Small Faces] Steve Marriott. Finally it came down to Marriott. He was contacted, and the reply came back from his manager's office: "How would you like to have a group with no fingers, boys?" Or words to that effect. So the group was dropped because of Marriott's commitment to Small Faces. But I think it would have been the first of all those bands sort of like the Cream and everything. Instead, it didn't happen -- apart from the "Bolero." That's the closest it got. John Paul [Jones] is on that too; so is Nicky Hopkins [studio keyboard player with various British rock groups].
You only recorded a few songs with Beck?
Yeah. "Happenings Ten Years Time Ago" [The Yardbirds' Greatest Hits], "Stroll On" [Blow Up], "The Train Kept A-Rollin'" [Having a Rave-up with the Yardbirds], and "Psycho Daisies" [available only on the B-side of the English single release of "Happenings Ten Years Ago" and an obscure bootleg titled More Golden Eggs], "Bolero," and a few other things. None of them were with the Yardbirds but earlier on -- just some studio things, unreleased songs: "Louie Louie" and things like that; really good though, really great.
Were you using any boosters with the Yardbirds to get all those sounds?
Fuzztone which I'd virtually regurgitated from what I heard on "2000 Pound Bee" by the Ventures. They had a Fuzztone. It was nothing like the one this guy, Roger Mayer, made for me; he worked for the Admiralty [British Navy] in the electronic division. He did all the fuzz pedals for Jimi Hendrix later -- all those octave doublers and things like that. He made this one for me, but that was all during the studio period, you see. I think Jeff had one too then, but I was the one who got the effect going again. That accounted for quite a lot of the boost and that sort of sustain in the music.
You were also doing all sorts of things with feedback?
You know "I Need You" [Kinkdom] by the Kinks? I think I did that bit there in the beginning. I don't know who really did feedback first; it just sort of happened. I don't think anybody consciously nicked it from anybody else; it was just going on. But Pete Townshend [lead guitarist of the Who] obviously was the one, through the music of his group, who made the use of feedback more his style, and so it's related to him. Whereas the other players like Jeff and myself were playing more single notes and things than chords.
You used a Danelectro with the Yardbirds?
Yes, but not with Beck. I did use it in the latter days. I used it onstage for "White Summer" [Little Games]. I used a special tuning for that; the low string down to B, then A, D, G, A, and D. It's like a modal tuning, a sitar tuning, in fact.
Was "Black Mountain Side"[on Led Zeppelin] an extension of that?
I wasn't totally original on that. It had been done in the folk clubs a lot; Annie Briggs was the first one that I heard do that riff. I was playing it as well, and then there was [English folk guitarist] Bert Jansch's version. He's the one who crystallized all the acoustic playing, as far as I'm concerned. Those first few albums of his were absolutely brilliant. And the tuning on "Black Mountain Side" is the same as "White Summer." It's taken a bit of battering, that Danelectro guitar, I'm afraid.
Do those songs work well now on the Danelectro?
I played them on that guitar before, so I thought I'd do it again. But I might change it around to something else, since my whole amp situation is different now from what it used to be; now it's Marshall. Back then it was Vox tops and different cabinets -- kind of hodge-podge, but it worked.
You used a Vox 12-string with the Yardbirds?
That's right. I can't remember the titles now; the Mickie Most things, some of the B-sides. I remember there was one with an electric 12-string solo on the end of it that was all right. I don't have copies of them now, and I don't know what they're called. I've got Little Games, but that's about it.
You were using Vox amps with the Yardbirds?
AC30s. They've held up consistently well. Even the new ones are pretty good. I tried some; I got four in and tried them out, and they were reasonably good. I was going to build up a big bank of four of them, But Bonzo's kit is so loud that they just don't come over the top of it properly.
Were the AC30s that you used with the Yardbirds modified in any way?
Only by Vox; you could get these ones with special treble boosters on the back, which is what I had. No, I didn't do that much customizing apart from making sure all the points, soldering contacts, and things were solid. The Telecasters changed rapidly, you could tell because you could split the pickups -- you know that split sound you can get -- and again you could get an out-of-phase sound, and then suddenly they didn't do it anymore. So they obviously changed the electronics. And there didn't seem to be any way of getting it back. I tried to fiddle around with the wiring, but it didn't work so I just went back to the old one again.
What kind of guitar were you using on the first Led Zeppelin album?
A Telecaster. I used the Les Paul with the Yardbirds on about two numbers and a Fender for the rest. You see the Les Paul Custom had a central setting, a kind of out-of-phase pickup sound which Jeff couldn't get on his Les Paul, so I used mine for that.
Was the Telecaster the one Beck gave to you?
Yes. There was work done on it, but only afterwards. I painted it; everyone painted their guitars in those days. And I had reflective plastic sheeting underneath the pickguard that gives off rainbow colors.
It sounds exactly like a Les Paul.
Yeah, well that's the amp and everything. You see, I could get a lot of tones out of the guitar that you normally couldn't. This confusion goes back to the early sessions again with the Les Paul. Those might not sound like a Les Paul, but that's what I used. It's just different amps, mic placings, and all different things. Also, if you just crank it up to distortion point so you can sustain notes, it's bound to sound like a Les Paul. I was using the Supro amp for the first album, and I still use it. The "Stairway to Heaven" solo was done when I pulled out the Telecaster, which I hadn't used for a long time, plugged it into the Supro, and away it went again. That's a different sound entirely from the rest of the first album. It was a good, versatile setup. I'm using a Leslie on the solo on "Good Times Bad Times". It was wired up for an organ thing then.
What kind of acoustic guitar are you using on "Black Mountain Side" and "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" [both on Led Zeppelin]?
That was a Gibson J-200, which wasn't mine; I borrowed it. It was a beautiful guitar, really great. I've never found a guitar of that quality anywhere since. I could play so easily on it, get a really thick sound; it had heavy-gauge strings on it, but it just didn't seem to feel like it.
Do you just use your fingers when you play acoustic?
Yes. I used fingerpicks once, but I find them too spiky; they're too sharp. You can't get the tone or response that you would get, say, the way classical players approach gut-string instruments. The way they pick, the whole thing is the tonal response of the string. It seems important.
Can you describe your picking style?
I don't know, really; it's a cross between fingerstyle and flatpicking. There's a guy in England called Davey Graham, and he never used any fingerpicks or anything. He used a thumbpick every now and again, but I prefer just a flatpick and fingers because then it's easier to get around from guitar to guitar. Well, it is for me, anyway. But apparently he's got calouses on the left hand and all over the right as well; he can get so much attack on his strings, and he's really good.
The guitar on "Communication Breakdown" sounds as if it's coming out of a little shoebox.
Yeah. I put it in a small room, a tiny vocal booth-type thing and miked it from a distance. You see, there's a very old recording maxim which goes, "Distance makes depth." I've used that a hell of a lot on recording techniques with the band generally, not just me. You're always used to them close-miking amps, just putting the microphone in front, but I'd have a mic right out the back, as well, and then balance the two, to get rid of all the phasing problems; because really, you shouldn't have to use an EQ in the studio if the instruments sound right. It should all be done with the microphones. But see, everyone has gotten so carried away with EQ pots that they have forgotten the whole science of microphone placement. There aren't too many guys who know it. I'm sure Les Paul knows a lot; obviously, he must have been well into that, as were all those who produced the early rock records where there were one or two mics in the studio.
The solo on "I Can't Quit You Baby" is interesting -- many pull-offs in a sort of sloppy but amazingly inventive style.
There are mistakes in it, but it doesn't make any difference. I'll always leave the mistakes in. I can't help it. The timing bits on the A and Bb parts are right, though it might sound wrong. The timing just sounds off. But there are some wrong notes. You've got to be reasonably honest about it. It's like the filmtrack album [The Song Remains the Same]; there's no editing really on that. It wasn't the best concert, playing-wise, at all, but it was the only one with celluloid footage, so there it was. It was all right; it was just one "as-it-is" performance. It wasn't one of those real magic nights, but then again it wasn't a terrible night. So, for all its mistakes and everything else, it's a very honest filmtrack. Rather than just trailing around through a tour with a recording mobile truck waiting for the magic night, it was just, "There you are -- take it or leave it." I've got a lot of live recorded stuff going back to '69.
Jumping ahead to the second album [Led Zeppelin II], the riff in the middle of "Whole Lotta Love" was a very composed and structured phrase.
I had it worked out already, that one, before entering the studio. I had rehearsed it. And then all that other stuff, sonic wave sound, and all that, I built it up in the studio, and put effects on it and things -- treatments.
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