Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:09:45 -1000
From: Teddy
Subject: Cranach skirts
Hi,
I'm working from memory here, and I haven't looked *that* closely at the Cranach pictures,
but I always thought they were more *cartridge* pleated than organ-pipe pleated.
If they were cartridge pleated from straight cut lengths of fabric, the nap wouldn't be a problem, and neither would the decorative bands, which didn't look like they
were cut on a curve to me....?
Anyone else care to comment?
Teddy
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:51:26 -1000
From: Mike Newell <[email protected]>
Subject: H-COST: Cranach skirts
Dear Teddy and others-
I have been meaning to ask for theories or experience on making Cranach skirts. A
friend of mine thinks that they were cut totally circular and
cartridge pleated. I have never cartridge pleated anything curved, so I am
curious as to how that would be cut? You need to cut extra at the top for
turn-down and I'm wondering how awkward that would be. I assumed the skirts
were straight lengths of fabric and cartridge pleated. My friend claims
that the full length pictures, which show flare at the hem, could only be
done with cutting the skirt circular.
Any thoughts?
--Kathryn
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From: Albert Cat
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:26:05 -1000
I'll put in my 2 cents worth tho I'm also going on memory too. Also, I haven't
made a costume of this period since college .... & you don't want to know how
long ago that was. Anyway.....
I think they look cartridge pleated too. BUT in a straight piece of fabric the
fullness would "peter out" towards the hem. A circle would truly be hard &
expesive to trim with many horizontal bands. I would compromise with an arc or
part of a circle cut in a few gores. [Kind of like the skirts in Janet Arnolds
Eliz. volume, tho' I know this is centuries later. They usually have 3 gores.]
This would help to put back the fullness at the hem and, if the cartridge
pleats were very deep at the waist, they would be more inclined to hold their
shape to the hem. The bands cut on the bias would more easily be applied if
the curve of the gores was not too great.
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:18:52 -1000
From: Asia Poppers
Subject: Re: H-COST: Cranach skirts
Rather than leaving extra at the top of the skirt to turn dow, an iffy proposition
on a circular edge, the tope edge could be finished and reinforced with a seperate
strip of fabric, sewn to the skirt right-sides-together and turned in to the wrong
side of the skirt.
However, I would hesitate to assume that these skirts were cut as circles.
Cartridge pleats can gather so much material into so little space that the
finished skirt can be full enough at the hem to create a great deal of
flare.
I have seen skirts made from cartridge-pleated straight panels of fabric that stand
out from the wearer's body in more than a full circle when she spins (this used to
be a favorite late-afternoon pastime for some of the Landsknecht campfollowers in
my guild at No. Cal. Renaissance Faire.)
Basically, the skirt is made of such a huge length of fabric, which is
cartridge pleated down into such a (relatively) small space at the waist,
that it flares like a circle skirt, even though it's cut straight.
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:57:10 -1000
From: "S. Bergdahl"
Subject: H-COST: Cranach Skirts
I feel that your friend is right. To get the fullness shown in most of
the skirts they would have to be circular cut. Which was also the very common in
the period that Cranach was painting. As to the cartridge pleating I see no reason
why that it couldn't be done. The turn down would have to be either very narrow,
or a bais strip of a light weight fabric could stitched in place then folded over to be used
as a base for the cartridge pleating. It sounds fussy, but I think it wouldn't be
much fussier than normal cartridge pleating. Just my two cents worth.
Stephen Bergdahl - Madly Stitching - [email protected]
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:29:07 -1000
From: Julie Adams
Subject: Re: H-COST: organ pleats?? huh?
>> I usually cut a skirt as a full circle. Men's skirts can often be cut as
>> two 1/2 circles, but the skirt can be pieced as long as the seams are along
>>
>> Women's skirts or skirts with less precise pleating can be done with the
>> seam inside the pleat sewn 4-8" down from the waist.
>
>So would you cut a long women's skirt as a series of wedges and piece the
>togther?
Yes you can. Or you can sew several widths of fabric and cut it out as
quarters or 1/2 pieces.
> I'm thinking of making a German renn gown ala Cranach but am puzzling on how
> to cut the skirt. Could you lay it out in two half circles on a long length > of fabric? How were those beautiful, long skirts cut out then?
>________________________________selvedge
>' '
> \ / Could you cut two of these and cut out
> ' ' a section at the top for the waist?
> ' . .'
> - ________ -
>________________________________selvedge
Yes.
>This wouldn't work for anything with nap or shading and I'm sure it's not
>period. For authenticity purposes, is a series of triangular
>(trapezoidal) gores the way to go?
Actually the nap goes all around, so it just has to match directions at the
seams.
>Also, how were the bands pieced onto those skirts? Is it a strip of
>fabric that's been stretched along one edge or are the cut into circular
>strips to follow the curve of the skirt--seems like an un-economical use
>of fabric. Specially woven?
I usually do each band and apply it to the top in one row. Matching edges
on each band for each wedge would be very subject to error.
These dresses were extremely lavish. They were a study in oppulence. I
don't think they worried that much about economy. Very wide bands almost
all need to be cut with the curve of the skirt. Narrow bands can be cut on
the bias and curved.
Julie
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:29:19 -1000
From: Julie Adams
Subject: Re: H-COST: Cranach skirts
>A circle would truly be hard &
>expesive to trim with many horizontal bands.
Yes, thats the point of Cranach gowns. These are silk velvets and cloth of
gold brocades covered with pearls. They are meant to show extreme wealth.
Julie
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:29:17 -1000
From: Julie Adams
Subject: Re: H-COST: Cranach skirts
>I'm working from memory here, and I haven't looked *that* closely at
>the Cranach pictures, but I always thought they were more *cartridge*
>pleated than organ-pipe pleated.
But after having made up several cartridge pleated and made up men's bases
organ pipe pleated, I know that they are NOT cartridge pleated. Cartridge
pleating gives a ridge or ledge at the waist where the extra fabric from
the bottom of the pleat resides. The Cranach skirts have very little or no
ledge. Cartridge pleats are also much closer together than these pleats
which can be 1" or more wide.
If they were cartridge pleated from
>straight cut lengths of fabric, the nap wouldn't be a problem, and
>neither would the decorative bands, which didn't look like they were
>cut on a curve to me....?
I've seen and tried cutting women's skirts on a straight length. They do
not hang properly. They will not give you the perfect rows of pleats from
top to bottom. A cartridge pleated skirt gives more of a bell shape in the
sillouette. Cranach skirts are cone shaped in the sillouette.
I started experimenting with these styles about 15 years ago and have been
focusing on them ever since.
Julie Adams
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:04:09 -1000
To: [email protected]
From: Julie Adams
Subject: Re: H-COST: Cranach skirts
>I have seen skirts made from cartridge-pleated straight panels of fabric
>that stand out from the wearer's body in more than a full circle when she
>spins (this used to be a favorite late-afternoon pastime for some of the
>Landsknecht campfollowers in my guild at No. Cal. Renaissance Faire.)
Asia, both the Northern and the Southern CA camp followers skirts are often
cartridge pleated. I was the women's costume director for the Southern
Landsknechts for some years. But the cartridge pleated skirts do not hang
like Cranach skirts, (and shouldn't because they are camp follower gowns,
not courtesan/noble's gowns), and the cartridge pleats produce a different
sillouette. Cranach skirts don't have tons of extra fabric, but have just
enough to fall into perfect rounded pleats.
Most of the Northern women's recent gowns seem to be cut as circles, but
cartridge pleated shallowly at the top. I am in fairly constant contact
with Elizabeth Pidgeon-Ontis, Julie Bradley, and Cathy Berte' and have been
for years. I also had a long talk with Catherine Schwartz this year who
said she was now using many of the organ-pipe techniques with good success.
We've done campfollower skirts with cartridge pleats for years, but I'm in
the process of re-examining that concept. I'm not actually sure that
cartridge pleating is common at all in German gowns and am finding more
examples of flat pleats and normal gathering than cartridge pleats. Anyway
Cranach organ pipe pleats are not normally seen in your standard middle or
lower class gown anyway.
One problem with organ pipe pleats is that they must fit your body exactly.
They must be made with fairly precise calculations and have no allowance for weight
gain or loss. Until I stabilize my weight after this pregnancy,
I won't be trying them soon, but am using the time to outline embroider an
orange-gold brocade in black for one sometime later on.
Julie Adams
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:09:25 -1000
From: Julie Adams
Subject: Re: H-COST: Cranach Skirts
>This sounds like a pattern would be the only way to go. As I see it the
>circular pattern is bad enough but adding pleats could be a nightmare
>working from scratch.
>Dennis
Absolutely. Thats why no one does them often. They are not a project that I
would recommend to a novice.
I use a pattern for my men's skirts and just adjust the waist size and hem
down for larger men. (Picture a series of 1/2 circles successively larger as you go
toward the hem. I will just expand this for a women's skirt when
I decide to make one up.
Julie Adams
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:07:01 -1000
From: Julie Adams
Subject: Re: H-COST: organ pleats?? huh?
>How in the world do you make organ pleats, with or without stuffing. I
>can not find any information on how they are made.
They should not require stuffing, but need a stiff lining to hold the body.
The garment is a circle cut. Each pleat like a piece of a pie. The line
between each piece of the pie is pinched in the back. Rows of stay tapes
are used to stabilize the pleats.
There is an actual pair of bases made in this fashion. They are shown in Kohler and
Payne. In Blanche Payne's History of Costume FIRST EDITION,
there are diagrams of the bases which show them patterned out.
I've made six or so waffenrocks (men's German organ-pipe pleated basecoats)
and a houpelande using this technique with no problem.
Julie Adams
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:48:58 -1000
From: Julie Adams
Subject: Re: H-COST: organ pleats?? huh?
>Let's see if I have this. The pleats are given a stiff lining and then
>molded into pleats?
I usually cut a skirt as a full circle. Men's skirts can often be cut as
two 1/2 circles, but the skirt can be pieced as long as the seams are along
a pleat line. I line it so that it is pretty stiff, my favorite has felted
coating wool with a canvas lining. The very stiff men's garments with the
"perfect pleats" need this stiffness. The more flowing garments can have less stiffness,
but still need enough body to hold the pleat on their own.
Each pleat is drawn on the inside of the circle. It is folded along each
line and sewn 1/4" from the edge along the fold. When each pleat is folded
and sewn, a natural arc will be formed.
Are the pleats actually sewn, like tubes?
No, not tubes. Its made from a flat piece of fabric.
Or are they
>tacked to horizontal rows of tape (every 4-6 inches?) to keep their shape?
They are tacked to horizontal rows of stay tape. But the gap between pleats on the
inside is much narrower than what you want it to look like on the
outside. My tapes tend to be between 1" - 3" between each pleat. I usually use three
rows of tapes on a men's skirt.
You MUST hang these about 3 weeks between cutting and sewing. Preferably
weighting and steaming occasionally during that time. Or the bias will
cause tweeks in the pleats.
Women's skirts or skirts with less precise pleating can be done with the
seam inside the pleat sewn 4-8" down from the waist.
The waist of a skirt is sewn to a bodice, doublet or waistband similarly to
stitching cartridge pleats.
Its really hard to explain this technique in text alone. I was finishing up a pamphlet
on Organ Pipe Pleats (with graphics) and my Word 6.01 no longer
works on our latest Mac OS version. Oh well, back to the computer store to
buy a Word upgrade.
I'll try to get pictures of finished costumes up on my web site. I used to
have some on my Landsknect site, but I took it down because of too much
political BS... oh well..
Julie Adams
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:07:53 -1000
From: The Purple Elephant
Subject: Re: H-COST: organ pleats?? huh?
I'm not sure about renaissance skirts, but the circular skirts on the
v-necked gowns worn in the mid fifteenth century were made by seaming
together widths of fabric and then cutting a circle out of them. This is essentially
the idea you have above I think, but with more than
just two lengths of fabric. I think this wouldn't be so bad on a napped
fabric, because although the nap would run in different direction on front
and back, it would run continuously from one to the other - there would be
no joined together pieces with the nap in opposite directions, which is
where you really notice the difference.
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:29:28 -1000
From: Teddy
Subject: Re: H-COST: Cranach skirts
> I have been meaning to ask for theoriesor experience on making Cranach
> skirts. A friend of mine thinks that they were cut totally circular and
> cartridge pleated. I have never cartridge pleated anything curved, so I am
> curious as to how that would be cut? You need to cut extra at the top for
> turn-down and I'm wondering how awkward that would be. I assumed the skirts
> were straight lengths of fabric and cartridge pleated. My friend claims
> that the full length pictures, which show flare at the hem, could only be
> done with cutting the skirt circular.
>From the few cartridge pleated garments I have actually seen, the effect *could*
be done with straight pieces - the pleats are held in
very close and tight at the top, but with nothing to regulate thema s
they go down, they would hang looser and so create the "flare". It
does mean, however, pleating a LOT of fabric into.
A series of slightly shaped panels - narrower at the top than the
bottom, without actually being as extreme as segments of a circle -
might be better, they aren't so far off "straight" further down that
they'd cause problems applying the decorative bands, but they're sufficiently reduced
at the waist to get rid of *some* of the bulk...
Does this make sense?
Teddy
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:20:42 -1000
To: [email protected]
From: Julie Adams
Subject: Re: H-COST: organ pleats??/Cranach skirts
>Julie,
> Thanks for all your helpful info. I bookmarked your Landsknecht
>site a few months ago and enjoy looking at your photos for inspiration.
It has been deleted though, all the data is on my new site at
http://www.znet.com/~savaskan/germans
> -The skirts of German gowns in the first half of the 16th century
>could be cut either with pieced gores or by piecing lengths of fabric
>together and then cutting out a circle. -->The paintings I've looked at
>(which of course I don't have on hand) suggest to me that as you
>mentioned, are circular rather than rectangular and are organ pipe pleated
>rather than cartridge pleated. As you also wrote, I don't see a ledge at
>the point where the skirt meets the bodice either, and the full length
>pictures show definite tubes.
Yes, when you start to get picky about sillouettes and spacing of pleats
there is an obvious difference between cartridge and organ pipe pleating.
Especially at the top as the organ pipes are each so much wider. I tried
making wide and deep cartridge pleats on one of my original gowns. It did not really
work out. That was before I found the Payne reference. I really
hope you can find the first edition. I bought one thinking I could get a
copy of my own, but they cut out the diagrams in the 2nd edition :-( I only
have zerox copies of that original diagram from Payne. On those particular
bases, the front overlaps (assuming for more groin protection) and the
skirt is not split. I extrapolated from that diagram to branch out to
different uses. I don't know about you, but I've seen people pad them or
sew them as tubes (especially with 15th c stuff) and it never quite looked
right... It was such an epiphany to find an actual garment made with this
style.
There is an amazing amount of flat pleating though too and some skirts are
knife pleated all the way down. (but are also at least gored heavily). The
lower class garments in the 1st 1/2 are often flat pleated or just
gathered. I 've seen organ pipe pleats in the later German gowns too, but
the bodice styles are more Spanish.
> -If using velveteen, piecing the lengths and cutting a circle works
>better (and is more authentic?).
I think that if you are tall, you will need to piece it or sew lengths of
fabric together on the selvage before cutting. I've done both on men's
garments and they both work fine. What you want to be sure of is that the
nap directions match at each seam. I can piece my men's ones to get very
little left over. Its actually an amazingly efficient use of fabric. I can
do a men's rock in about 4 yds - 60" wide for my 6'3" hubby, where if I
were to straight cut the skirt, it would take at least another yard or more.
> -Narrow bands can be cut on the bias and curved to match the curve of
>the skirt and wider bands should be cut in the actual arced shape.
Yes. But if the fabric is fussy, the narrows can be cut on the curve too.
> -The top edge of the skirt, at least, should be lined with canvas or
>something stiff to give some body to the fabric and help to hold the
>tubes' shape.
Yes. If you want perfect pleats all the way down, then the lining must go
all the way down if your outer fabric has little body. These can be pretty heavy skirts,
but you actually need less outer fabric compared to a
straight cut/cartridge pleated gown.
With the help of some stay tape this is then pleated onto a
>band of some sort which is in turn stitched onto the bodice.
It can even be pleated directly on the bodice or doublet (which looks better).
> -Strips/lenghts of stay tapes are spaced a few horizontal inches apart
>until you are at least 8" down from the waist, preferably more if you want
>more precise pleats. I'm still pretty unclear about this. I've requested
>Blanch Payne's book from my local library and hopefully it will be the
>first edition. Will also look at my Kohler when I get home.
Yes, For more precise pleats, you would even take it down past the thigh or
even to the ground. Hanging the skirt will help it hang right too.
I suggest making up a model. In classes on it, I have students make up a
1/4 skirt that is baby-sized with about 4 pleats in it to practice and get
the concept down.
> I would love to have a copy of this when it's completed and would
>gladly pay for any duplication and mailing costs. Thanks again for all
>the valuable contributions to the discussion--looked at my list of saved
>messages on the topic and more than half of them are from you :).
I sure hope I can figure out why my Word is hosed up. We did some systems
work last night and I'll re-install it later today. I will be making up
another men's rock and documenting it with pictures as well as adding more
text and documentation. I hope that the final pamphlet will be in the $5-7 range (which
will be only slightly more than copying and mailing cost.)
I am from Caid too :-)
Juliana Neuneker Hirsch von Schutzhundheim, OL
Calafia, Caid
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:50:26 -1000
From: Margo Anderson
Subject: Re: H-COST: Cranach skirts
I have never cartridge pleated anything curved, so I am
>> curious as to how that would be cut? You need to cut extra at the top for
>> turn-down and I'm wondering how awkward that would be.
Well, the solution would be to forget the turn-down and use a shaped facing
or a full lining instead. If I'm aiming for the stand away effect
characteristic of Elizabethan costume, which is *not* what you want for the
Cranach skirts, I often interline the pleated area with a layer of fleece,
which makes the pleats look more lush and rounded.
I've never done organ pipe pleats, but now I'm interested enough to have to
try them. Thank goodness I'm making dolls now--I have scraps and remnants
on hand to do a very spiffy German!
Margo Anderson
"One Tough Costumer"
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:56:32 -1000
From: Mike Newell <[email protected]>
Subject: H-COST: Cranach skirts
Dear Teddy:
*could* be done with straight pieces - the pleats are held in very close
and tight at the top, but with nothing to regulate them as they go down,
they would hang looser and so create the "flare". It
does mean, however, pleating a LOT of fabric into.
A series of slightly shaped panels - narrower at the top than the bottom,
without actually being as extreme as segments of a circle - might be
better, they aren't so far off "straight" further down that they'd cause problems
applying the decorative bands, but they're
sufficiently reduced at the waist to get rid of *some* of the bulk...
Does this make sense?>
Well, yes it does if one has a youthful figure, which I don't anymore. I
could never get the correct ratio of hip to waist to make that work now. I
would look like the Human Lampshade.
I spent last night going through a huge book I have on the Cranach family
and their paintings. I agree with Julie that about 90% of the court ladies are wearing
what appear to be tube pleated skirts, but I did find a few
exceptions. The exceptions seem to be box pleated or knife pleated. A good
cop out for those of us with fear of organ pleats . I find that the
sketches/engravings/line drawings do a better job at showing that the
skirts tend to be circular -- when the ladies are scrunching them up under
their arms to hold them away from their feet the hems looks circular. Since
some of these gowns seem to train, as well, you do need a circular cut
somewhere, even if it's just some gores here and there added to straight
pieces.
This plays havoc with the 3 yards of gold on gold brocade (non-metallic) I
bought to make decorative bands. I *thought* I could just cut straight
bands, but now realize it will have to bias. At one point I had crazy
thoughts of embroidering my own bands ---there are patterns in 16th century
needlework books for "Cranach borders". I've given up the crazy thought --
let Julie have the glory!
--Kathryn
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:32:03 -1000
From: Julie Adams
Subject: Re: H-COST: Cranach skirts
Exactly! I make no bones about it, doing a Cranach skirt would be very painful. I
think that part of the reason is that we spoil ourselves with
sewing machines. If you are doing it all by hand no matter what, the difference in
time and effort wouldn't be as extreme. But with our ability to sew long stretches
of fabric in short order, curved bands and such are
more difficult to apply evenly. Most of us are just more used to working on
a flat.
Also I forgot to mention that when I have done men's garments, I actually
save fabric when cutting on a circle. If you are careful the wedges can be
alternated so that most of the fabric is used. Even if not, small items can
be cut from the small unused sections. To get the same hem width in a
straight cut, more fabric is used at the waist.
Julie Adams
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:54:45 -1000
From: Mike Newell <[email protected]>
Subject: H-COST: Cranach books
Dear Gia and List:
Alas, that nice big book I own is something I bought about 20 years ago for
only $20.00 (it's a mucking big book) from either Publisher's Clearinghouse or Barnes
and Noble. I bought it sight unseen via catalog and was thrilled.
The info is:
"Cranach:A Family of Master Painters", by Werner Schade, trans. Helen Sebbe, G.P.Putnam's
Sons, NY , first American edition, 1980. Library of
Congress Catalog Card Number 76-17503. SBN 399-11831-4
There is another book I saw at the Philadelphia Main Branch when I was
researching a possible article. All I have is the author and title: Max
Friedlander, "The Paintings of Lucas Cranach" It's another lovely huge
book with tons of good plates, color and b&w.
A few years ago I was debating writing an article called "The Riddle of the
Cranach Bodice" but the more I researched, the longer and more involved
the article seemed. Since I was also researching items for some needlework
books I am writing I threw in the towel on that one. I'm sure Julie has
already covered this material, anyway, since she specializes in this area.
Hope this is helpful -- I drive people nuts when they want something and I
tell them I bought it 15 to 20 years ago!
--Kathryn
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