Subject: Re: Attaching Tudor skirts and bodices
Hi Lisa,
I did a tudor gown last year, but it did not have any cartidge pleats in
it. I've got the book you're using, though, and it looks to me as
though you should attatch those pleats as in drawing #3 of the series of
illustrations you made; attach the cartridge pleats as low as possible
on the waist band so that the bodice would fall over the band and just
on top of the pleats as they protrude away from the waistband.
1
1______
1 \
=1 (waistband)
/ ______ /
/
/
/
The top of the side and front pleats looks as though it would be off-set
form the top of the cartridge pleats; being more or less flush with the
top of the waist band.
1
1_______ (top of waist band)
1NNNNNNN
=1------- (seam allowance on front and side
/ _______ pleats seems to be about even
/ with the top of the cartridge
/ pleats)
/
Any way, that's what it looks like to me. Hope that was helpful. I'd
love to know how it turns out.
Oh, and here's a pic of my Tudor gown. It was my wedding dress last
year! :)
Wishing you success,
Shanda
P.S. I had thought I wasn't quite ready to tackle the patterns in that
book when I started this project. But, after all the major alterations
I eventually had to do to the patterns I did use (Period Patterns), I
now think I probably could have handled it. I hadn't sewn in a few
years prior to the "wedding project". Now it's become my hobby and my
passion!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 19:24:10 -1000
From: [email protected] (Julie Adams)
Subject: Re: Attaching Tudor skirts and bodices
I think it would be this case:
> bodice--> l surface of pleats butting
> l right up against bound
> l edge of bodice
> l| <--band
> cartridge pleats--> =|
> /
> /
> skirt--> /
> /
> /
>
It is how we do German Renn. Gowns from that same period. The Ashelford
gown shows cartridge pleats in the back, but it looks to me like most are
flat (no pleats) in the front, perfectly cone shaped, but Caroline can fill
in the blanks better than I. A print of the Ashelford gown is in A Visual
History of Costume.
Julie Adams
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:03:04 -1000
Subject: Attaching Tudor skirts and bodices
Although I've seen lots of discussion on Tudor shoulders and sleeves in
the past year or so I haven't seen anything on how to attach the skirt to
the bodice. If this has been discussed before please let me know about
when it was, and I'll search through the archives.
Anyway, I'm working on the Princess Mary-style gown in the first section
of Hunnisett's _Period Costumes for Stage and Screen, 1500-1800_. For
anyone who has made this before, can you tell me how you attached the
skirt to the bodice? If I'm reading it correctly, it sounds like you flat
pleat the front and sides and cartridge pleat the back of the skirt to a
band of some sort and then sew the band to the bodice (whose bottom edge
has been bound and finished). What I don't understand is how you get the
cartridge pleats in the back to lie under(?) the edge of the bodice.
Since cartridge pleats are 'bumpy' where do those bumps go? Do any of
these pictures make sense? I tend to think the first two must be wrong
since it wouldn't lie smoothly.
bodice--> l
l
l| <--band
l|W <--cartridge pleats between
/ band and your body
/
skirt--> /
/
/
bodice--> l
l
l | <--band
lW| <--cartridge pleats between
/ band and bodice
/
skirt--> /
/
/
bodice--> l surface of pleats butting
l right up against bound
l edge of bodice
l| <--band
cartridge pleats--> =|
/
/
skirt--> /
/
/
bodice--> l top of pleats butting
l right up against bound
l edge of bodice
l| <--band
cartridge pleats--> W|
/
/
skirt--> /
/
/
-OR-
Hunnisett's theater methods aside, is there another better and/or more
historically accurate way to do this?
Thanks for any suggestions.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 17:52:19 -1000
To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME
Subject: H-COST: How do you sit in a farthingale, etc.?
Hello list,
I recently spent a couple of hours in a farthingale and got to
wondering how period women sat down. I've been told by friends that the
easiest way is to BYOS (bring your own stool) which you learn to
discreetly flip the edge of your skirts over so they collapse down neatly
instead of pushing forward and hitting you in the face/exposing
everything below your waist. This is okay for the 1990's but historically,
how did a woman of any period that wore some sort of _rigid_ skirt support
(farthingale, hoops, cage crinoline, etc.) sit down?
I have a vague recollection of reading somewhere that some of
those skirt supports (in the late 1800's?) were somewhat collapsible.
True? Or am I just imagining things again? Also, I've seen many pictures
of Tudor era women sitting so they were probably wearing petticoats rather
than farthingales, but for those women who _did_ wear some type of rigid
skirt foundation, how did they manage it?
Were such things only worn on certain occasions where you were
expected to stand the whole time? Somehow I just can't imagine anyone
telling a Spanish Infanta that she would have to stand up all day or night
and bear the weight of all that brocade ;>.
More wondering,
lisa
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 20:09:23 -1000
From: J&B
Hello Lisa-
I know I've posted this before - but here goes again. =
For information on how to sit gracefully in your farthingale, I suggest you look to
Julia Sutton's 1986 translation of "Nobilt=E0 di Dame" by Fabritio Caroso, an Italian
dancing master, published in 1600. Period dancing manuals often have chapters dealing
with the niceties of dress and deportment as well as giving dance instruction. Ms.
Sutton's translation is available in hardback from Oxford Press, or in a very reasonable
Dover paperback reprint.
>From the Oxford edition, pp. 142-144:
NOTE XIII
How a Lady Should Be Seated, Whether at a Ball, or Elsewhere
NOTE XIV
ow to Sit on a Low Chair Without Arms
Caroso also gives advice for wearing chopines properly, and how to wear capes and
swords at a ball.
Bob Skiba
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 05:24:32 -1000
From: Karren Schaeffer
Subject: Re: H-COST: How do you sit in a farthingale, etc.?
Hello Lisa,
The posted advice from the men is right on. I plan to find that book on dance.
The key is practice on different types of seating. Bring a sturdy
cardboard box(hay bale), an armless chair / bench, a chair with arms,
and a stool in front of a full length mirror. Put on your farthingale
and see how it reacts. The key is indeed perching daintily towards the
front of the seat. However one cannot lean back or slouch deeply into a
chair anyway when wearing stays.
I kind of bend my knees a bit to lower the level of the widest hoops and
then slide back into the edge of the seating surface. You essentially
"sit" on the area between two levels of hoops. To sit on the ground if
needed, put your back foot behind knee pointed to the side. Bend your
front knee bearing your weight, and bend the back knee sliding the foot
under your body as you descend. Watch a video of a dancer (ballet,
jazz, modern) and you will see examples of this technique. It is smooth
and you go straight down, so the hoops of the farthingale collapse like
a slinky.
Good luck,
Karren
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "noelle"
Subject: Re: H-COST: How do you sit in a farthingale, etc.?
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 05:46:00 -1000
Another trick is to swing the back of the skrit up ever so slightly as you
sit down, thus lifting the hoops up a row or two back, allowing for a level hang
of skirt. (This is especially useful when the only seating offered has arms.)
BTW- Another good use of this subtle swing is to get a little cool air
under the skirt in particularly warm weather.
Noelle
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mrs C S Yeldham
Subject: H-COST: Sitting in a Farthingale
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 06:17:00 -1000
-Poster: Mrs C S Yeldham
In reply to Lisa's question, what I have to say below relates strictly to
the farthingale, I know very little about chrinolines or hoops.
This is based on personal experience, and discussions with others who wear
them as well.
The farthingales I've worn aren't rigid vertically. The (steel) hoops hold
out the skirts horizontally, but the vertical part is just a petticoat
(stiff linen or cotton) and, when taken off, they collapse easily into a
flat structure the size of the largest hoop - this makes transporting them
comparatively easy! It also means they don't tend to keep the bell shape
when subjected to unusual pressures ie sitting down, or even falling down
(yes, I have fallen over on my back whilst wearing one (dancing - walked up
the back of the skirt whilst doing repreases (sic) in the Spanish Pavan),
and I promise I didn't expose everything below my waist - the fact my gown
was of velvet might have helped - the weight of the fabric would weigh down
the hoops).
In order to sit down in one of these, just take hold of the second or third
hoop from the top (waist) through the layers of fabric, on either side of
your hips (towards the back), and tip the back gently upwards. This will
tip the front down and then sit normally.
Another factor might be the shape - farthingales are narrower at the top
than chrinolines tend to be, much more of a bell shape, which would affect
exposure! However, I've never known anyone have this kind of trouble with
them - the problems Lisa describes I associate much more with chrinolines
(weren't there contemporary comments about these kinds of problems then -
I haven't seen any 16th century similar comments.
On the other hand, the original wearers were probably much more used to
standing (or kneeling) for long periods than we are, whether wearing court
outfits or not. Social relations tended to be much more formal, and
physical expression of those relations more rigidly defined. Whether in
the presence of your parents or in public at court, you would only stand or
sit with permission, and being given permission to sit in the presence of
your monarch was a high honour. Elizabeth (wife of Edward IV) once kept
the court *kneeling* for 3 hours while she dined after one ceremony (it was
either churching or the coronation - haven't got the reference here at
work).
Caroline
back