Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 04:40:52 -1000
Reply-To: LYN M PARKINSON
Subject: Bernard Berenson's Italian Pictures
Hello List,
We've had several requests/threads, so I spent some time in the library.
There is a three volume work by Bernard Berenson, _Italian Pictures of
the Renaissance_, Phaidon Press, NY, 1963. Vol. I is text, Vols. II &
III are black and white pictures. Not all Renaissance paintings are
here; I couldn't find the Portrait of a Lady by da Carpi in the Frankfurt
museum, but did find that he is listed under 'G' for Girolamo di Carpi in
the Art Encyclopedia. His works listed there do not include the Portrait
of a Lady. He was called 'da Carpi' because his father came from there;
he worked around Ferrara. There are not many duplicate styles of that
painting--there are some squared necklines, but most portraits have more
chemise showing. Actually, Boucher has the best picture. Check #1055,
1550, 1670
Madonnas nursing the baby are painted by four or five artists. In Vol.
III, look at illustrations 1395 and 1396, by Bernardino de' Conti. 1395
has the breast coming through the center opening of the gown, which has a
smoothly tailored bodice, while 1396 has it coming through a slit on the
left, and that gown is slightly gathered so that the slit could be hidden
in the gathers. 1479, by Bergognone, uses the center opening of the
bodice. I think this implies that the camisa has a slit or two, or at
least a deep center opening. 1526, by Giampietrino, has a slit, and
there are white edges to the dark fabric. Probably the camisa, don't you
think? This bodice is also slightly gathered at the low neckline. I
think there may be others, but I just skimmed. If the bodice is smoothly
tailored, it often shows strained buttons or some other indication of a
center opening, if the Madonna is not nursing.
One of the nice things about Berenson's collection is that he divides the
painters into geographic areas. He lists the location, if known, (at
that time) of the paintings he shows. So, if you just have to have a big
color copy of one of his paintings, you have a chance of writing to the
museum and asking for it. And, cross-referencing, if something doesn't
seem typical, you can really search paintings from your painter's area
for additional documentation.
Don't know if that helps either of you, but I sure had a nice day!
Allison
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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:22:08 -1000
From: Nancy Saputo
Subject: THE ART OF DRESS - BOOK
Given the problems I've had recently in receiving H-Costume posts, I submit
this in the hopes it will be new information:
__THE ART OF DRESS: CLOTHES AND SOCIETY 1500-1914__, by Jane Ashelford (The
National Trust 1996, ISBN No. 0-8109-6317-5).
Extant garments (in color!), oil paintings and prints GALORE! I've only just
purchased this book yesterday, but a perusal indicates this is a gem.
Nancy Saputo
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Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 06:29:50 -1000
From: Gray Hunter
Subject: Re: Beginners costume questions and stuff (fwd)
I do costumes...not period "clothes" ....for film & theatre & don't really
have expertise it one single time period but I'll throw in my 2 cents ....
After all I've made lots of different period stuff for lots of different
reasons. Anyway....
Seam finishes-
It seems to me that if you're not sewing the entire garment by hand there's
no reason you can't surge the SA's or use French seams. If you are going
whole hog however I know that in Tudor thru Georgian times a garment made of
velvet would most likely be lined throughout. Usually each pattern piece
would be lined individually w/ the SAs turned inside each piece...like bag
lining. Then the pieces were butted up together and stitched by hand. Many
garments before say, 1790's were not sewn as well as we might like today.
Remember that all that braid you see on garments before the sewing machine is
there to cover clunky hand sewn seams as well as to be decorative. I've seen
on 1840's gowns the raw edges simply overcast w/ a whip stitch. This being a
logical & practical solution there's no reason to doubt it wasn't used since
ancient times.
Books and sleeves-
Sleeve is a sleeve is a sleeve...thank you Gertrude Stein. To get the look
you want you must cut it the way that makes it look that way. Then as now,
the more fabric you take out from under the arm, the more the sleeve will
hang close to the body. Many Elizabethan sleeves have shallow curves up top
but they had to do what you have to do to get the right shape. The physics of
fabric is still the same.
In 600 however I would think that most sleeves were cut into the body...the
T-shaped tunic. Do not underestimate the beauty of the T-shaped tunic. In the
right fabric it can be as elegant as any set in sleeve. A pleat at the
shoulder [where the seam would be] creates a lovely effect.
Undergarments-
Most early undergarments are cut in squares & rectangles. As they are often
full & gathered or smocked this doesn't present fitting problems. If one was
wealthy enough to afford expensive, embroidered underwear....one showed it
off. Of course a touch of fine white linen spilling from a low neckline shows
of a beautiful neck & shoulders well.
Don't take my suggestions as gospel ....others into restoration or museum
work have more knowledge than I.
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Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 06:30:27 -1000
Reply-To: Jennifer Markham
Subject: Re: 15th century headgear
Now we've got someone else interested in the 15th century on the list, I
shall ask a question I was otherwise going to address just to Dave Key.
>>>>
Oops, no more lurking for me, either.
>>>>
how valid are the horned linen
head-dresses shown by van der Leyden et al for English wear - or should English women
be wearing something else? Some of them are wearing gowns with gathered fronts and
fur edging which (private communication) Dave Key has said are fine for England.
>>>>
I happen to have a book of brass rubbings from the Victoria and Albert museums.
Judging by the 15th century ones, the English did not go in for the damsel-in-distress
pointy hats, but did have some with rounded horns. The pattern in the rubbings seems
to be the same for the earlier cauls as for the horns, so it seems to me they may have
"grown" out and up as the fashion moved from the sidless surcoat to the gowns I think
you mean - close to the Houpelande, but with tighter or baggy sleeves cuffed at the
wrist instead of dags.
The horns seem to extend a few inches above the crown of the head, and the linen drapes
mid-forehead over the front, following upward along the line of the horns and then
sometimes dipping in the back behind the shoulders, sometimes staying at chin-level
in the back.
The other look which predominates is the gown I believe is called a Kirtle - off the
shoulders with a wide collar, _very_ tight sleeves with enormous white cuffs. With
this, the women wear either a small squarish-cylindrical hat far back on the head
with an elaborate translucent veil supported by wires, or a cylindrical cap (again, far
back on the head) with a folded-back brim which hangs down past the shoulders (You've
probably seen this in other pictures as well).
I can give specific years, etc. if requested.
Jennifer Markham
Allentown, PA
in the SCA:
Lady Anne Liese Wolkenhaar
Shire of Eisenthal, East Kingdom
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Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 06:30:30 -1000
Sender: Historic Costume List
Subject: Re: Fw: Smocking - how far back in time?
>> Does anyone have any information on how far back smocking goes?
This is a reposting of an old post to h-costume that I made a year or two ago. My
permission is given to repost it to another list in total:
There are a number of what I believe are examples of smocking in "Lucas Cranach" and
"The German Renaissance Woodcut" (which normally can only be
found at a University, there is only one complete set publicly available in
California that I know of). I tried to present here some examples from
sources that most people can access.
For the purpose of this discussion, I am defining the term smocking to
refer to pleating fabric into even pleats by gathering and then
embroidering over the top. This embroidery can be flexible and have
elasticity, but can also be a decorative way to hold pleats in place. For
those of you who have not smocked, the stitch chosen, how it is placed, and
the tension used, controls the elasticity.
I believe Durer shows some smocked shirts in other works. I don't generally
consider the gathered shirt in his "self-portrait" as true smocking, though
it might loosely fit into the definition above. The following are some of
the examples that I base my opinion on (but not all, many of these
paintings need to be seen in person):
"Lucas Cranach" by Friedlander and Rosenberg, The Wellfleet Press, New
Jersey, 1978 ISBN:1-55521-475-4
Possible smocked items:
#13-St Dorothy, St. Agnes, St Cunegunde - chemise #80-Virgin and Child, the
Child holding and Apple - chemise #81-Virgin giving suck - chemise
#152-Von Brandenburg, Duke of Prussia-Shirt (maybe smocked) #155-The
ill-match lovers - chemise
#220-The Feast of Herod- chemise or placket #323-Portrait of Margrave-shirt
(maybe smocked) #Sup15-Sup 18 Men's portraits - shirts (maybe smocked)
"The complete woodcuts of Albrecht Durer" Dover Press Pg. 100-The knight
and the landsknecht, 1497
"The Complete Etchings and Engravings of Albrecht Durer" Dover Press
pg 166 - Melancolia I - smocked apron
pg 159 - Peasant couple dancing - (not smocked, but a clear picture of a
type apron which I have seen smocked at the top)
Loose Woodcut Zeroxs (from The German woodcut series) Lucas von leydon -
The dentist - chemise Edward Schoen- Distribution of foolscaps -1538 -
chemise
And the following two I consider the Most Clear representations by the way
they are drawn and hang:
Edward Schoen- Tailor as Lansquenet and Seamstress-1535- -sleeves
Lucas Cranach the Elder-Beheading of John the babtist- 1505-sleeves
Holbein - Portrait of Jacob Meyer - shirt
Textiler Hausrat, Keidung und Haustextilien in Nurnberg von 1500-1600-by
Jutta Zander-Seidel, Deutscher Kunstverlag 1990 ISBN:3-422-06067-7
(has duplicates of some previously mentioned, can be purchased at the
Germanisches National Museum in Munchen, or the Bayerisches Museum in
Nurnberg-this book is sort of the "janet arnold for german 16th cent.
costuming and a bit more)
There are some examples which look to be smocked with white thread on white
fabric. I am not as sure about some of my men's shirt examples. I also have
a theory that some of the pleated high-necked chemises are smocked on the
back in white to hold the pleat, but just a theory, but that is how I add
tension to cuffs. In Cranach, they show some smocking that is like Durer's,
but some is not. The smocking is usually either in simple lines straight
across, or in diamond patterns. I have never found picture smocking. What
convinced me in the end was seeing some of these pictures in person. Many
of the Cranach's are extremely large and a lot of detail is lost looking at
a book.
Of the two shirts with smocked bands around the sleeves, one is on a
noblewoman and one of a seamstress campfollower in grubby clothing. I made
one of these shirts using smocking and it looks pretty much like the
woodcuts.
There are several women with aprons that have smocked waistbands. (see
Durer's Melancholia I). This type of apron is like a shorter skirt, with no
banding trim (and is not, like many people think, a short overskirt). There
are some "jumpsuit"-like aprons, built almost like a viking apron with a
narrow top. The top is either smooth, a fabric yoke, or the fabric is
smocked into a narrow band, shown in Durer's "peasant couple dancing".
Certainly my opinion on this is based on interpretations of visual examples
only and then "testing" those theories by creating the garments and then
comparing the look and drape to the woodcuts/paintings. I would love to
know if anyone has seen any written info on smocking in the 16th cent. or
seen any existing examples. My German is poor at best, and my 16th cent.
German even worse....
Julie Adams
[email protected]
aka Juliana Neuneker Hirsch, OL
Julie Adams
http://www.idyllmtn.com/savaskan/homepage.html
http://www.lgd.org/
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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:57:40 -1000
From: Joan M Jurancich
Subject: Re: Pattern Drafting
The book I recommend is "The Costumer's Handbook: How to make all kinds of
costumes", by Rosemary Ingham and Elizabeth Covey. I think that there is a
newer edition than the one I have (1980). It includes instructions on
making slopers, from which just about anything can be designed. I have used
this book for 16th through 19th century clothing.
Joan Jurancich
[email protected]
Sacramento, CA
At 08:11 PM 3/3/97 -0500, Anne Bannon wrote:
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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 05:10:07 -1000
Reply-To: Jane Bretz
From: Jane Bretz
Subject: Costuming Book
Do any of you know if the medieval and renaissance portions are
accurate in a book titled:
Culture of Fashion: The History of Fashionable Dress by Christopher
Brerand. (Manchester Press 1995).
A good friend of mine was given a copy, and would like to know if it is a
good resource.
Thanks in advance!
Jane Bretz
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 03:31:11 -1000
From: Margo Anderson
Subject: Re: Handsewn Seams and Book question
>
>Book Question; I'm sure this has been discussed on this list before but I
>am interested in finding information on the errors in the Elizabethan
>Costuming book, also known as the RenFaire Costume book.
Great book! With, as you say, some errors. Here's my 2 cent's worth:
Men's doublets rarely, if ever, laced up the back. (Please, no flames
everyone! We just went through this in detail a few months ago, and the
general agreement seems to be that it would be great if they did, but they
didn't. Consult the archives for more info.)
Upperclass women's underskirts were not fastened to the overskirts with
points. This seems to be an extrapolation from pictures of closed skirts
fastened down the CF with points. There are also a few portraits that show
bows on the edges of open overskirts, but they are obviously "made-up" bows,
sewn in place, not points. An overskirt with a properly interfaced edge
stays in place fine without help.
Womens back-laced bodices: While I can recall one woodcut that shows
backlacing, there are a number of other sources that show no back fastening.
The most common fastening seems to have been concealed hooks and eyes at CF.
There is also little or no evidence for side lacing.
The slashes that run from the shoulder seam on a Spanish Surcoat are
probably not for nursing, as they usually end above the bust point.
There's one more error that isn't recommended in the book, but is shown in
several of the illustrations. It's a make-do solution to the problem of a
bodice slipping off the shoulders, due to the back neckline being cut in a
low curve: a pair of eyelets on the shoulder straps, and a lace threaded
through them and tied. Cut your bodice back higher instead.
>
Aside from those issues, it's the best source for beginning to intermediate
Renfaire costumers.
Margo Anderson
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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 07:55:28 -1000
From: Julie Adams
Subject: Blackwork in Spain Question
>What I am curious about is evidence for blackwork in Spain at about that time or
earlier. The small black and white pictures in Milia Davenport's book
>are just too small for me to make out any embroidery. Does anyone know of
>any paintings I should try to find copies of for documenting blackwork in
>Spain? Are there any good sources for illustrations of people wearing
>blackwork in Spain in the late 1400's or early 1500's?
Yes, there are numerous clear examples. See
"Hispanic Costume 1480-1530" by Ruth Matilda Anderson, published by the
Order of the Trustees of the Hispanic Society of America, 1979
This used to be available through Hedgehog Handiworks.
But you can also find elaborate and complex blackwork in German art by
Albrecht Durer, Lucas Cranach, and others that also predates the English
blackwork. An interesting side is that Henry imported many German armorers,
glassworkers and cloth processors during his reign, so they could well have
had a hand in establishing its popularity as well.\
Julie Adams
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:14:55 -1000
From: Frances Grimble
Subject: Re: 16th cent. personal hygiene
> I've yet to find a decent history of makeup and facial aesthetics. Anyone?
Well, the largest seems to be Richard Corson's _Fashions in Makeup from
Ancient to Modern Times_. 614 pages, covers "ancient civilizations"
through the 1960s. My edition was published by Peter Owen of London.
Fran Grimble
http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm
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Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 04:00:55 -1000
Reply-To: LYN M PARKINSON
Subject: Re: The use of Linen in period costumes 1300-1600
On Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:57:17 -0500 No Name writes:
>Someone posted a note a few days ago (which I've lost already, so forgive me
>if I misquote here) asking about whether the wealthy (aristocratic??) might have
worn linen (as outerwear as opposed to linings? etc.) as everyday wear.
> I don't remember if a period was given, so I'll qualify it with my
>interests, say 1300-1600. I know wool was common, but was there a typically
>"less formal" fabric that was used in warm weather besides silk?? I was
>curious if there were any responses. I seemed to miss them if there were.
>
I've been checking _Costume in the Drama of Shapespeare and His
Contemporaries_ by M. Channing Linthicum. Linen is not listed as
outerwear by the wealthy, but 'fustian', which was used in Elizabethan
times, had a mixture of linen yarn with cotton ones. It was a mock
velvet, and was used by the gentry to simulate silk velvet.
This is a wonderful book, which does not limit its information to late
Elizabethan. Linthicum has searched shipping ladings, inventories,
household accounts, custom records, etc., etc., etc. for the earliest
accounts of when a fabric, style, accessory, etc. was used, listed,
purchased, imported, etc.
It makes wonderful documentation for English costuming, but also has some
mention of other countries: what was imported, which tells you what was
available, for instance, in France, Italy, Ireland or other countries.
She documents each referance. It's available in some libraries, and has
been reprinted by Falconwood Press.
I don't have the original posting, either, so I don't remember if it was
only English costume. Surely, in the hotter countries, there would have
been some linen summer clothing. Herald mentions a linen fabric used for
a simple, loose-fitting gown similar to the ones worn by angels.
I wore a wool blazer and skirt to tour the Tower of London on July 4th
one year, and I've attended lots of events in German castles, which are
cold even in summer. Summers in the USA are quite different. We need to
be a bit anachronistic, here, in the interests of health as well as the
difference between the contents in Allison's pouch and Lyn's wallet.
Yes, there are beautiful velvet full Elizabethan outfits worn at Pennsic,
and I admire them, but as a Chirurgeon, have treated far too many heat
victims to plan to dress that way, myself. I have bought some linen
recently for skirts, and two pieces for bodices--which I will make up as
soon as I answer all my e-mail...sometime in 2005? ;-)
Allison
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 04:48:45 -1000
Reply-To: Julie Adams
Subject: Re: VArious (again)
>I would be puzzled if German immigrants brought in blackwork, as I understood
>they were legally confined to a certain area of London so interaction with the English
would have been restricted.
I have seen references to the men hiring themselves out as "security" for
faires and festivals and there were active landsknechte companies hired for
the border. Even restricted areas would still have trade. In any case, the
German and Spanish blackwork is both extensive prior to what we see in
England. But IMHO, the German blackwork examples look more closely related
to the English examples than the examples in the Spanish pictures I have.
>BTW - is there only one book on Spanish costume?
Another prime resource for Spanish costume in the early 16th c is
"Authentic Everyday Dress of the Renaissance - All 154 plates from the
Trachtenbuch" by Christoph Weiditz published by Dover - most of the plates
are from about 1530 - which is slightly past the date initially requested
for a blackwork resource.
Julie Adams
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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 07:55:42 -1000
Reply-To: "R.L. Shep"
Subject: The British Monarchy
I read in the London Telegraph (web site) about a new web site put up by
the Queen - and then spent several days trying to reach it. It is so
busy that it is really hard, but Ifinally got through. Unfortunately I
did not get any further because it is so busy... but it is suppose to
have 150 pages and I am sure some of it will be of costume interest as
they have a section called "The Royal Collections".
The URL is
http://www.royal.gov.uk
~!~ R.L. Shep
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:15:24 -1000
Reply-To: "Penny E. Ladnier"
Subject: Re: Royal Costumes
I got into the web site R.L. Shep recommended for the British Royal Web Site
(sounds strange). It did take forever to get into it and the download time
is about 20 minutes. I went to the Royal Collection section and never did
find the collection images. Each section does take forever to download or
upload. This method maybe quicker than the URL that was suggested...
Royal Collection
http://www.royal.gov.uk/collect/index.htm
Some sections off of the Royal Collections were (but not recommended):
Kensington Palace
http://www.royal.gov.uk/palaces/kensingt.htm
The Queen's Gallery (they keep referring to a section called the 1997
Queen's exhibition but I could never get in)
http://www.royal.gov.uk/collect/exhib.htm
Buckington Palace
http://www.royal.gov.uk/palaces/bp.htm
St. James Palace
http://www.royal.gov.uk/palaces/stjamess.htm
Later, Penny
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:16:41 -1000
Reply-To: Mrs C S Yeldham
Subject: VArious (again)
DJ had some questions on some of my comments.
>Would someone clarify some more things for me, please? I clipped the quote,
>but really don't know who wrote it. (Sorry)
It was me (Caroline)
>"in response to the 'Beginner's comments' - certainly by the 1450's
>in England the sleeve heads must be S-shaped - the bodice and sleeve
>are closely fitted, there is no sign of dropped shoulders except in
>some of the men's outer garments (and there I'm doubtful) and there
>is no sign of the extra fabric under the arms which straight seams
>would involve."
>What are S shaped sleeve heads? And assuming they are basically the
>(arched)set-in sleeve of today, with seam lines at a different place
>is the armseye cut out in a similar way? How deep is the "S"?
Yes, they are basically the same shape, with the seam at centre back of the
arm instead of under the arm. The armseye is cut a similar way - according to
the type of garment (as it varies today). The 'S' varies according to the
depth of the armseye and the tightness of the garment.
>"As to smocks and shirts, please avoid drawstring necks, at least up to 1600
>(and my friends who do 17th century say they haven't any evidence for
>drawstrings then either). The necks are either round or gathered to a band
>(which comes in in the 16th century). Fuller sleeves, gathered at the cuff
>also come in in the 16th century on shirts and smocks.
>Next question.
>In "Historic Costume for the Stage," by Lucy Barton,
I don't know this particular book but, apart from Hunnisett (and sometimes
her too), I am always very cautious about anything 'for the stage' - the
stage demands tend to be dominant over accuracy. Looking at the pictures is
the best way to find out (taking into account religious/symbolic/royal
peculiarity)
>there is a description
>of a shirred chemise necklines for men in the chapter covering 1450-1550,
>page 188. "After 1525 the shirt often rose higher above the low cut dublet,
>till it encircled the base of the throat, with the heading forming a tiny
>frill. There was a slit down the base of the shirt to admit the head, and
>cords to hold it together at the neck." Is this correct?
Well, if shirring means gathering and you also insert 'collar' bands (one
outside, one inside about 1 inch wide excluding seam allowance) to which the
full material of the shirt is gathered, then yes. I often do the 'frill' as a
separate piece of gathered material inserted between the collar bands - it
cuts out some of the bulk and looks better - plus, looking a little later this
turns into the ruff, which was constructed separately.
>Why are smocking and shirring/gathering correct for the period, but
>drawstrings are not?
I think you have to be careful about the term 'smocking' in this period. Some
of the German pictures (Durer) do show very deep, even gathering at the neck
of shirts in the 1520s or so - there is much less in England. Some people on
this list have mentioned decorative stitches on top of this gathering - I've
never personally seen it, certainly not in England.
There is also gathering or pleating on other garment - men's sleeves, men's
gowns and possibly women's gowns as well. Drawstrings are very rare -
sometimes on pouches and bags, but even then there are other methods of
fastening. I don't know why, but they seem to have chosen sewn in pleats or
gathers rather than drawstrings.
>Isn't a drawstring simpler?
Well, no, I don't think so. In making I've always had terrible problems
getting the drawstring down the channel, and when wearing the string tends to
disappear back up the channel if I'm careless - the bow comes undone and so am
I! I also think sewn pleats/gathers look better. It's a personal opinion,
but I don't like them.
>I am not trying to start an argument, merely to understand. How did the
>gathered neckline evolve?
Of course, that's why we're all here! As to how the gathered neckline
evolved, again I don't know - presumably shirts were getting bigger and they
had to come up with some means of dealing with the volume of fabric.
Couple of other comments:
Someone asked where I got Margaret Scott's 'A Visual History of 14th and 15th
century Costume' - sorry, I just ordered it from the library. It's at home,
but if you want the ISBN etc, let me know.
The origins of English Blackwork - the honest answer seems to be no-one knows
for sure. One of the areas that puzzles me is the quantity of embroidery that
was being done in England (and probably elsewhere) for the church which has
not survived, tho some of the German whitework has survived. There was a lot
of embroidery and other decoration of quite functional fabrics, towels,
clothes for draping statues etc, which turn up in will, inventories and the
church warden accounts, which are described as 'worked'. As far as I know,
none of this late 15th and early 16th English work has survived (*please* tell
me if you know of any!). It is a possibility that this skill turned to
domestic work during the upheaval, and rejection of iconography, at the
Reformation. If it was similar to the surviving German whitework, that would
explain the counted thread/geometric aspect of blackwork.
I would be puzzled if German immigrants brought in blackwork, as I understood
they were legally confined to a certain area of London so interaction with the
English would have been restricted. There is not much blackwork (from memory)
in the Holbein pictures of German merchants from his first visit in the 1520s.
BTW - is there only one book on Spanish costume? The one by Ruth Matilda
Anderson is the one that is always quoted! It would seem useful for those
people seeking information about hot weather wear. What were the Spanish
wearing in this period, since that's the hottest climate in Western Europe?
Having been to El Escorial in August, thats as hot as I want to be! I shall
always remember a journey in an unair-conditioned train across that plain ...
Apart from wearing natural fibres (especially linen next to the skin) -
another way of coping with extreme heat is to change your behaviour, not
expect to behave the same way. Stay in the shade, if you must be active,
don't do it in full sun, drink plenty of liquids (and some salt) and remember
alcohol is a diuretic. Fashionable people avoided the sun as much as
possible, people with pretentions imitated them and working people got hot!
Someome referred to an illustration of Livre de Citie des Dames, which is
probably an illustration of Christine de Pisa's work (sp), which is,
unfortunately, an allegory. Saints, royalty and allegorical figures are
always ones to be cautious of when looking at pictures - they are not
necessarily wearing what normal people wore.
Caroline
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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 05:04:00 -1000
Reply-To: Astrida E B Schaeffer
Subject: Re: Cotehardie
Hello, all,
I've gotten lots of requests for the reference on the period applique
technique, so I'm posting it to the list:
Medieval Craftsmen--Embroiderers, by Kay Staniland, U. of Toronto Press,
copyright 1991, ISBN 0-8020-6915-0.
Lots of photos and close-ups of extant embroideries, some color, some B&W. There's
a photo & close-up of a 14th c. German (if I remember correctly) tapestry/wall hanging
done with this technique; the design is similar to the Bayeux tapestry in that a
series of scenes is shown next to each other showing the same characters as they progress
through the story. The cording used in this piece was gilded leather. Also, when
I was in Italy in January I saw a textile hanging in an antique shop window that
used the same technique to applique a repetetive stylized leaf design onto a plain ground.
It was quite beautiful, and I have no idea what its purpose was (bedding, wall-hanging,
curtain, who knows?) and since my Italian is essentially nonexistent (and travel
dictionaries don't tend to get that esoteric!) I didn't try to inquire. There was no information
posted with it identifying it in any way, but from the look of the pattern I'd hazard
a guess it was at least three hundred years
old, if not more. The pattern reminded me of some of the leaf-motifs Janet Arnold
shows on doublets in her 1500-1600s book.
One of those times that my brain took over and started humming "If I were
a rich man" from Fiddler on the Roof!! Oh, well....
Astrida
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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 04:09:50 -1000
Reply-To: Margritte
Subject: Norman Gown ???
Good Gentles All--
As my costuming library is rather sparce at the moment, I would appreciate
any suggestions for books dealing with 11th through 13th century clothing,
especially in England and Wales. I am more interested in how the original
garments were actually put together than in theatrical copies.
One book that I have invested in is "A History of Costume" by Carl Kohler.
It shows a German gown on pg. 140-141 that is the right period for what I
want (12th cent). The description runs in part:
"...in order to emphasize the outline of the breasts the front of the
overgarment was made in two pieces, the lower one being cut away each side,
so that a peak ran up between the breasts. At the top was sewn a piece of
material longer and broader than the excisions, and this fell from the neck
to the breasts. By sewing together these two pieces from the peak toward
both sides, bag or purse-shaped enlargements for the breasts were produced."
(I know this probably will be gibberish to anyone not looking at the picture, and
I apologize). Can anyone confirm or deny that this was the common practice in gowns
of this era? Was this only in Germany, or was it also done inEngland? I haven't found
anything similar in other books I've looked through (mostly borrowed from friends). Am
I looking in the wrong places?
Also, in looking through a borrowed copy of Norris, I saw an undergown that
had tiny cords sew in as padding across the shoulders and upper arms. Again, I need
to ask, was this a common practice?
Many thanks.
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Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 05:20:27 -1000
Reply-To: LYN M PARKINSON
Subject: Re: Ecclesiastical Embroidery
Cat, and other embroiderers,
Meant to get back to you sooner. I like, as an embroidery source, a book
by Marie Schuette. It's quite an old book, and very hard to find. It
contains black & white photo plates of existing pieces of needlework.
She gives the colors and the stitches used in each piece.
Unfortunately, not long ago, I redid all my copy notebooks, rearranging
them for different projects. I can't find the title page of her book.
It is listed in another bibliography as
Schuette, M. and Miller, C.S., _Pictorial History of Embroidery_, London,
1950.
Took me a while to track it down. Should be required reading for all
historical re-creators. There's another one,
Nevinson, J.L., _Catalogue of English Domestic Embroidery_, London, 1950.
This is also good, and may have the woman's coif in it. I have a zerox
of a coif, and a man's cap, and the only notation on them is 'Bath' which
may mean the originals were in the museum in Bath, UK. When Nevinson was
young and starting out in his custodial work, he said quite definately
that chain stitch was not used in England in our period. Now, I'll bet
he'd like to erase every copy! His scholarship is usually good, if you
catch him in something, don't discount everything he says. We all learn.
(Mostly, not to say 'always' or 'never')
Now: Norris. He did excellent work for his time, and says, himself,
that we have much to learn. And so we have done, in the last 60 years.
He uses drawings--there wasn't the photographic ease of illustration in
his days. Sometimes, looking through art books, you can find the source
of his drawings. Norris was THE bible for costuming in the early days of
the SCA. A Laurel will have to say what is thought of him, now, since so
many good books have been published. I look up things, and compare them
with what is now said. He has some details you don't find elsewhere. Is
that because modern authors weren't interested in those details, or
because some of his sources were destroyed in World War II, or because he
drew an inference that was unwarranted and so modern authors ignore him?
I don't know. I just follow, and keep repeating, my three cardinal rules
of research:
1. cross-reference,
2. cross-reference, and
3. cross-reference.
Hope this helps,
Allison
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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:03:43 -1000
Reply-To: "Jeffrey Hedgecock, Gwen Nowrick"
Organization: Historic Enterprises
Subject: Re: Norman Gown ???
Margritte:
Lots of fabulous research has been done since both Kohler and Norris
published their books. Try to get your hands on books published in the
last 20 years or less. Lots of "dead guys" have been found/excavated/examined and
the construction/materials used have been published.
I like the book "The development of Costume" by Naomi Tarrant (ISBN
0-415-08018-5) I got mine at the Met in NY, but I should think you could
get it through Barnes & Noble. It's going to run you about $35, but it's
a wonderful volume. It cites lots of extant garments for the patterns,
and gives a good overview of fibres, weaving, colors, etc.
Good luck!
Gwen
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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 04:04:43 -1000
Reply-To: LYN M PARKINSON
Subject: Re: Norman Gown ???
Margritte,
Over the years I've assembled a very good costume library. I don't know
of any other gown that is like the one in Kohler. I don't even read him
anymore. He is TWO ROOMS AWAY as opposed to the good ones piled all
around my computer. I went and got him. He doesn't cite an actual
example. It could have been done, but I have no other reason to think it
was. Mary G. Houston, in _Medieval Costume in England & France_ begins
her work with the 13th C., but she does not show this sophistication of
cut even then. The tightness of the lacings were probably the only
things that emphasized the breasts, for those who wished to do that.
Milia Davenport's _Book of Costume_ has a number of black and white
pictures of each of the main European countries of our period. On p. 123
there is a German woman's costume that I like and wear, except that I
usually do not put in back lacing for the form fitting effect. p. 137
shows some bliauts from which Kohler might have gotten the idea, but in
modern versions, that is a sort of corset on the outside of the gown. On
p. 141, the foolish virgins have lines drawn on their clothes, indicating
breasts, but the assumption is that these are Byzantine style garments.
That pouch didn't appear in Byzantine costume. Houston, _Ancient Greek,
Roman and Byzantine Costume and Decoration_. She goes up to the start of
her Medieval book in that one.
_Dress in Anglo-Saxon England_, Gale Owen-Crocker, is a little early,
ends with 11th C. There was communication between the Anglo-Saxons and
the Normans. She doesn't list it in archiological evidence.
There's a LOT of Norris; could you be more specific as to the citation?
I can't think of your example as common practice, though.
Always glad to talk costuming--
Allison
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