An Interview With Abdullah Ibrahim

by Armin Buettner

You can pass this interview around freely in cyberspace. Printing it or bringing it or parts thereof in a form that can be sold is forbidden, unless you ask me, and pay me good!!

copyright for this interview is in the hands of

Armin Buettner
Breisacherstrasse 80
CH-4057 Basel
Switzerland

Thanks to Brian D. Phillips ([email protected]), Richard Rodseth ([email protected]).

Many thanks to Warren Senders ([email protected]).

A.B. : Abdullah Ibrahim, where are you living these days?

A.I. : Mostly in Capetown. But I am always traveling between there and New York because my family is still there. I had to go back to Capetown to get residence reorganised after the years of Exile and set up the dynamics for the family to return. I just came here from South Africa yesterday. So it's between Capetown and New York, but mostly Capetown.

A.B. : The last time I saw you in concert, about five years ago, after the concert was over, you invited everybody to a free South-Africa after the revolution has come. Now, that everything has changed down there, what do you think about the situation?

A.I. : We are in an excellent position. We have to commend our leadership, especially the leadership of President Nelson Mandela. I think South Africa showed the world something quite unique. For us it was all a very traumatic and moving experience. It was something that happened overnight with the least amount of violence. There is a lot of hard work to be done in the country but it is exciting. Perhaps South Africa is the only place in the world left where we can work from the ground up in change.

A.B. : When you follow the European or American mass-media, you get the impression, that the joy over the freeing of South Africa has quickly given way to criticizing the Mandela Government for problems that have their cause in the time before his reign...

A.I. : As I said, we are in a situation, where, as our President says, we must move forward. There is no sense in hassling with the past. We must not forget the past, but the most important thing now is to move the country forward. You have to understand, that all these ills that Apartheid has caused are very deep and traumatic if we come down to individual people. This is our concern. We have very moving stories from almost everybody. That is why you will find people reluctant to speak about these questions. These are deep, deep personal experiences.That is why it is so hard to answer questions about political dynamics. Like : How do we feel? For us it's personal. These are still moving personal questions. So if you ask me a question like this, I cannot respond and speak for the country. I speak for my little field in culture which is music and how it affects the people and how through music we can contribute to the moving forward of the country. We just had a concert in Capetown Cityhall which was an incredible experience, with young musicians as well as established musicians like Basil Coetzee. Musicians from all different ethnic groups, white, black, everything. It was an incredible experience. That is where we are heading.

A.B. : You are living in Capetown again. Let`s talk about the old District Six (The part of Capetown where the Black Community lived before they were transported into the socalled "Homelands"). Are there still traces of its history to be found? Or has the history of the black community that dwelled there completely been wiped out during the years of Apartheid?

A.I. : That can never be wiped out! Its a people`s dream, and dreams can never be wiped out. In fact our opening song during this tour is dedicated to the old District Six. We musicians are the historians. We record our experiences and our history within our music. Some of the pieces we play are very old, in fact ancient traditional songs from the whole area, what the aboriginals call "our dream time" Music of the Khoi and the San people [1, 2]. Music from that time through the ages through the coming of the European settlers through the Apartheid aera into our times.

A.B. : In your music one can find traces of classical music from the Islamic diaspora, for example in pieces like "Tuang Guru" or of course "Ishmael". There is also of course traditional African music of for example Xhosa -origins. And then your harmonies often seem derived from christian religious music - European and gospel. I always thought you were one of the greatest "World Musicians" way before that inflatious term was coined. What makes Capetown a place that grows such complete musicians?

A.I. : I think its geographic situation. It is at a very strategic point. When you look at Capetown it is almost like everything branches out from there. I mean geographically speaking everything filters into Capetown. It is a very strategic point. Also you have this meeting of minds and the meeting of cultures. Traditional people, the Khoi and the San, the Xhosa. You have the descendants of Malaysian freedom fighters, you have people from all over Africa, especially from the westcoast. Remember that the Samba came to Brazil from Angola through slaves that were shipped to Brasil. They also fetched slaves from Angola to Capetown. Then in the later period we have the introduction of the church thing. The European church but even more important the African-American episcopal church which was founded in Philadelphia by an African-American. This church has an incredible following amongst the black people. It is the same in the United States. A very very strong church. In fact my Grandmother was one of the founding members of the South-African episcopal church in Capetown. So you see people talk about the Afro-Americans and the South-Africans and their differences, but there is so much intermarriage. Our bass player Lionel Bukus (sp?) lives in Capetown, but his family is from New Orleans. Horace Alexander, a young altoplayer from Houston, went with us to Capetown two years ago, this was the first time he saw his family. So for us there is no difference. It`s family!

A.B. : You once said, that Orchestras in Capetown often played christian songs like "Little town of Bethlehem" and connect them with a "Capetown-Beat". How would you define this beat?

A.I. : Well, a definition of this beat would be both musical and spiritual. It's a very special kind of rhythm. If you look, you will find this beat all around the African coast. Not so much inland. But if you travel from Morocco down, around the cape and again up to Arabia it is the same kind of beat everywhere. Of course it has its variations. It is the same kind of rhythm that is played in New Orleans. There is a very close link between New Orleans and Capetown. The carnival-minstrels in Capetown are the same as in New Orleans.

There was a young man from the university of Leeds a few years ago. He wrote his masters-thesis in music and I was the subject. What is more important, he traced the roots of Jazz. His statement is, that Jazz started in Capetown. I know sometimes it sounds like we are beating our own drum, but this is something that we inherently understood. Duke and Monk understood this dynamic. It is not to say, that Jazz started there, but it is the whole dynamic of the African diaspora. If you look at New Orleans and Capetown, in what we perceive to be the African`s position in time in the industrial revolution and where this industrial revolution projected us, than Capetown and New Orleans are almost synonimous. In New Orleans you have the same dynamics of mixing : You have creole people - Jelly Roll Morton - whereas in Capetown we have the so called coloured people. If you look at Louis Armstrong, and King Oliver which were basically African musicians - same in Capetown. As I say, there has been inter- marriage. It is looked upon as different, but for us it is the same experience. And Jazz as we know it today is the highest form of musical expression ever on this planet. That is quite obvious because everything evolves. Because this dynamic is nurtured in the black ethos of the world it should be accepted as it is. It is the music of the last decades going into the next century.

A.B. : Talking about decades, a lot of people think your career started in the early sixties when Duke saw that you record. But of course you were already a musician in the late forties. How can one imagine the music you played while playing with the "Tuxedo Slickers" or the "Streamland Brothers?

A.I. : Those were Jazz Big Bands with basically the same setup as in the United States : Five saxophones, four trumpets, four trombones. We played traditional African music. but we also played Jazz-arrangements. The Tuxedo Slickers for example played a lot of Erskine Hawkins Arrangements like maybe "Tuxedo Junction". Three years ago we played in Birmingham which was Erskine Hawkin`s Birthplace -- and Sun Ra's . So there is a close connection. We never thought this as apart from another. It was all part of an extended family. Look at Duke Ellington, Duke was never like "an American musician". He was more the "wise old man in the village". We played Erskine Hawkins, (Jump-bandleader) Joe Liggins, Tiny Bradshaw. Then we had our arrangers who arranged traditional music for those Big Bands.

A.B. : Was the traditional music mixed with the Big Band Jazz or was it one after the other?

A.I. : When you listen to it, you can't tell the difference. Like with Count Basie : If you hear a Basie-riff, sometimes you couldn't tell whether it originated in Africa or in Kansas City. I think the problem is, that the music-historians, especially the Jazz-historians have never really understood this whole dynamic between South Africa and the United States. Our communication transcends telephone and TV. There is another sense of communication.

Let me tell you the story of the African bird : There was a man in Europe who collected birds. And he kept them in cages. People knew him all over Europe and came to look at his birds. One day he captured an African bird and also displayed it. One day this man went to Africa. He said to the bird : "Listen, I am going to Africa, see your family. Do you want me to tell them something?" The bird said : "You know, the best thing you can do, is to let me out of this cage." The man said, he couldn't do that. He went to Africa and met the bird's family. They said : "Listen, how is our relative?" The man said : "He's ok, but I got him locked up in a cage." And at that precise moment, one of the birds fell out of the tree : dead! The man was taken aback and when he came back to Europe, the African bird said : "Did you see my family?". He said : "Yes, but a strange thing happened. You know, when I told them, that I had you locked in a cage one of them fell to the ground dead." And right at that moment the bird in the cage also fell dead. But when the man opened up the cage, the bird flew out. The bird said : "Thank you for the message!!".

A.B. : This story looked sad first...

A.I. : Ah, death, life. Our communication is on a completely other level. See, if we talk about music, (plays some notes) we are dealing with the unseen. We are fortunate that in Africa we have old people who understand the dynamic of the unseen. We study with them. Music is dealing in the realm of the unseen. It is much deeper as people think when they "see us play some notes". It is a deeply spiritual practice. But look at Jazz musicians now, everything in modern society is misplaced. I mean you are interviewing me with a taperecorder, that is misplaced - not that I want to put you down - but you are supposed to use other means of communication. In some ways this is stupid. It is the same with musicians, we are supposed to be entertainers, but in traditional societies we were priests. In any traditional societies anybody that shows musical implanation was immediately drafted into medicine. My great Grandfather was a healer. He tought us everything about herbs, plants and flowers and what you are supposed to do. We as musicians living in this modern urban society... All my family were religious practioners. They came from traditional practice and when the white people came they went into the church. I was the first one that became a musician and became muslim. It has all to do with healing and spiritual practices. Now the Jazz musicians in the United States do exactly the same thing. The only thing is, that they did not understand what it was about. They had no elders to guide them.

People say that slaves were taken from Africa. This is not true : People were taken from Africa, among them healers and priests, and were made into slaves. Look at the young people now, they are completely cut from the whole spiritual experiences. It is almost gone. That is why people are taking drugs. If you take drugs, you always got some kind of self-denial and the reason for this self-denial is, that you don't know. Its our generation that began to understand. Duke told me, that the closest that we got back to it was Be Bop. It is physically impossible to play at the tempo Bird played in. He must have been in a trance (laughs). Our generation began to rediscover this. This is what we try to establish in South Africa in our music-academie. It will be more about spiritual rediscovery and the redefining of our role in society than about learning notes. And really South Africa makes it possible for us to do that.

A.B : While preparing myself for this interview, I listened again and again to tenorsaxist Basil Coetzee's Solo on "Mannenberg"...

A.I. : Oh, this solo is something else. We just arranged it for string- orchestra...

A.B. : ..and I wondered why such a man is not known all over the world. There are even a lot of Jazz-fans who never heard his name. Or think of Sun Ra, another master that died poor, ill and bitter. Is there no need for master musicians anymore?

A.I. : In the United States the Jazz musician is an entertainer. So, unless you as a musician begin to think about it yourself you will stay an entertainer.

Take Jazz clubs : I stayed out of them for the last ten years and I still avoid them as much as possible. One reason for this is secondary smoking. A trumpet player from London whose name escapes me now died of lungcancer. He never smoked. A lot of my friends died over the years and we never made a connection. And in a Jazz club no-one ever listens anyway. So we have to redefine our roles in society. In South Africa that is possible, because we can start from the ground up. It is the only place left in the world where we are able to do it. Everywhere else it's cut and dried and there are rules to follow. We can start anew in South Africa.

A.B. : In the movie "A brother with perfect timing", you tell the story of those two youngsters saving the young girl from getting run over by a car through means of perfect timing. Then you call them master musicians. So one does not necessarily need an instrument?

A.I. : No. This is where we differ from the western world. I find that most musicians are people who own instruments. A sound-engineer is not really a sound-engineer, he is a man with sound-equipment, understand? If you feel it, you will find it too. That also goes for people with pens and books and taperecorders (laughs). The basic communication is between the people. An instrument is only what it says : It's instrumental. I remember a few years ago in Toronto one of my friends wanted to organize a solo piano concert. We found this beautiful room but we had a problem finding an instrument. I said : "nevermind, we are still having the concert". It freaked him out. I said : "to be dependant on an instrument is stupid, there are 500 people waiting!

A.B. : So was there a concert?

A.I. : Of course!

A.B. : Without an instrument?

A.I. : Without an Instrument! You know the Zen-masters saying about the iron- flute? It is actually the highest developed instrument. It is solid iron, with no holes. If you are able to play that, you are a master. Our music is related to Zen, thats why it is so popular in Japan. I study martial arts, I have the fifth degree black belt. The concept of martial arts is identical to the concept behind Jazz. Nelson Mandela is a martial artist, a boxer. He understands the art of war. Not the art of war that is fighting and killing people, but the art of war with the self. The Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) said that after the small jihad comes the big jihad, which is the battle with the self. This is what our music is also about. A taxi-driver told me when we talked about South-Africa : We fought another kind of fight. It was fighting without fighting which is the contemporary way of being. See : The new nation has already been born, only people do not understand what it is about.

Look at architecture, everywhere in the world people build homes, right? And they project their hopes, you know? A garden, a lawn in front, everything is projected outside, so people can see it. Now traditional architecture is inside. There is a wall, and when you go inside, there is a court. Everything happens inside. Look at sports for example, I mean the contemporary idea of it : When you are 35 or 40 years of age, its finished, because it deals with external energy. Look at martial arts, everything is external, like for example breaking bricks. But true art is internal.

A.B. : But I thought that martial arts, at least in Japan, also deal a lot with the inside?

A.I. : That is what I wanted to say, you have to get to the point where you understand that it really is internal. Because then if you are 40 or 50, it begins for you instead of ending. Our president Nelson Mandela is a martial artist, you see? The idea is, that the soft will overcome the hard. This is what we call the internal system of thinking. If I hold my hand like this (stretches out his arms), it will be impossible for you to push it down, even with five people. But it took me 30 years of training, to get to this level. Internal strength takes such a long time to develop. Now if you look at Jazz music, its concept and formula is the only way we can go in terms of a social dynamic. Because if you look at classical music, its formula comes out of the industrial revolution. You know, we have a conductor conducting and everything has to be correct. It is like a conveyor-belt in a factory. There is no independent thinking. They are absolutely terrified of taking a solo. I worked with 18 classical musician, I asked : "Anybody take a solo?" No-one take a solo!. The fear has been installed in them, that you might make a mistake. The same kind of mindset applies in the society. People are told that they must have a job. I tell my students : "God says you must work, he never said you must have a job." In all the scriptures god never said a word about any job. (laughs)

Having a job to have security is the concept of classical music, getting paid, social security, health benefits....I never had a job after I was 14 years old when I said to myself, I will never do this again. So I operate on a 100 percent faith. When you play, that is what you have to have, else you will not be able to improvise. This is the way to go forward and provide entrepeneurship to the minds of the people. Your traditional thinking cannot create new terms, that is if you are looking for job- security. We need entrepeneurs. The guy that will give you a job is a guy that took his last hundred franks and took a chance to open up a business (laughs). This is the same in the field of music.

A.B. : You became a muslim nearly 30 years ago. Today in the western world Islam is often seen as a threat, is this a misconception?

A.I. : It is like with movies : Say there is a movie showing in town. Everybody is excited about the film. All my friends are going to see it, but I have never seen the film. I did not have a chance to go. But I hear from my friends when they discuss the film. Very soon I start telling other people about the movie. After a while I tell people the whole movie, then I start to think I have actually seen it.

A.B. : And when you finally see it, you get the impression it is the wrong movie because it was different before?

A.I. : Exactly! This is the basic problem with the perception of Islam. Say you buy a car. If you buy a car, there come two manuals with it : One from the manufacturer, one from the dealer. They will tell you, how you must maintain the car. We have been given manuals too, because we also were manufactured. We got manuals from the manufacturer and the dealer - Allah, God and the Prophet. The Koran is the manufacturers manual, and the Khadif is the one from the dealer. The code of combat has been established for you. It does not matter which religion you come from, there is a manual. What ever you believe in, you have to follow that manual. If you do not follow the manual, you have to create your own manual. Now comes the argument, "whose manual is the best?" (laughs).

I wanted to get back to the real manual, that is why I became a muslim. The misconception about Islam is as with everything else : We do not do the individual effort to find out for ourselves. It is a personal thing that has nothing to do with what someone else says. What do you feel about it? What is your personal relationship with yourself? And the universe? And the creator? Either you believe, or you don`t believe. You have to face everything by yourself. When death comes along, you have to do it by yourself. What ever manual you choose, has to see you through that.

For me the essence of Islam is what we call Tauhid. Tauhid means unity. It is incredible how things are together and yet they seem apart. That is only because we do not perceive. A friend of ours from China, he is practicing traditional medicine and one day we were talking. I said : "In Islam we say Tauhid, which means unity." He said "that`s the same with us, only we say Tao!" I said "Ah, of course!" I knew Tao, "the way", but I never made the connection. So listen, Tao --Tauhid, they are the same. The essence of Islam is unity. So you see everything here is in unity : the piano, the chair, the tape-recorder. I mean, you can not throw anything out of the universe. No matter how far you throw it, it is still there (laughs).

A.B. : Is there any music that you listen to in these days?

A.I. : I used to listen to records when I started which is good to find a direction, but I stopped doing this some years ago.

If you have got any comments on this interview, just go ahead. Any comment or question is welcome!!!

Most moving (to these ears that is) was when Ibrahim played solo for about 15 minutes mixing old themes of his and finally singing a tune about the beauties of Capetown that had the verse "I never roam far away from home". I had to leave though, because I could not stand the audience anymore....