Hi Gerald:  I will have to give you a brief reply at this time.  I believe that the 70th
       week of Daniel was the period of time of Christ's minister on earth for the first half
       of the week, then He was cut-off in the midst of the week.  The week or 7 year
       period continued past the stoning of Stephen and conversion of Paul.  At this point
       the gospel was taken to the gentiles.  The time for the Jews was ended.  They could
       still come into the new covenant, but the old covenant was vanishing away.  (Now,
       all must come into the new covenant with Jesus Christ as their saviour, there is no
       other way.)
       If we tried to say that the 70th week of Daniel was the great tribulation period of
       the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., we would be guilty of placing a gap where
       scripture doesn't authorize one.  This is what futurist do, and their gap is over 2000
       years.  Wrong!
       The destruction of Jerusalem was approximately 7 years from A.D. 66 to A.D. 73,
       if you count the arrival of Cestius Gallus to the suicide of the Jews at Masada, but I
       don't believe that is the 70th week of Daniel (perhaps a shadow).  The reason I say
       that is that when Jesus was crucified, the temple curtain was torn signifying,
       among other things, that the sacrifice was no longer effective.  But then in A.D. 70,
       half way through that 7 year period, the actual sacrifice ceased because of scarcity
       of animals.  So there may be some types and shadows involved here.
       It is refreshing to see people admitting that they don't know it all.  We should all be
       in a state of continuous learning about the things of the Lord, from the Bible.

       Keep in touch,

       Yours in Christ Jesus,

       Jim Hartline

My Dear Brother,
   NOW 'THAT'S' the 'kind of answer' I've been waiting for!  =)  SERIOUSLY!
   I was reading a guest book on The Preterist Archives and was finding various beliefs re: the 70 weeks.   I had
heard that there were 'diversities.'   So, I decided to do a little 'survey.'  I believe your answer is the BEST!   No
'flattery' meant =).
   I'm in the 'midst' (not the 70th =) of 'playin catch up.'   I sure would like to share more...I promise I won't be a
'pest!'  =)
GOD BLESS YA!
Together...EXALTING HIM!  =)
jerry
 

       __________________________________________________________________
 

Hey Jim,                                 (Response to article about Acts 24:15)

Great job. Why is it that so many refuse to see this truth? I thank God for giving me eyes to see the
truth of what He has written.

Living in the joy of His presence,

David B. Curtis
Berean Bible Church
Office phone (757) 547-9547
http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org

I came across the following quotation while reading "The dialogue of Justin with Trypho a Jew."  I believe one could say the same for religion. Simply exchange the Philosophies listed with Denominations and one can see why religion has become "many-headed."

"What philosophy is, however, and the reason why it has been sent down to men, have escaped the observation of most; for there would be neither Platonists, nor Stoics, nor Peripatetics, nor Theoretics, nor Pythagoreans, this knowledge being one.  I wish to tell you why it has become
many-headed.

It has happened that those who first handled it [i.e., philosophy], and who were therefore esteemed illustrious men, were succeeded by those who made no investigations concerning truth, but only admired the perseverance and self-discipline of the former, as well as the novelty of the doctrines; and each thought that to be true which he learned from his teacher: then, moreover, those latter persons handed down to their successors such things, and others similar to them; and this system was called by the name of him who was styled the father of the doctrine."

I thank our Father for helping me find simplicity and peace again.

Ken Baldwin
JCTN

My comment: Very good. It really tells us a lot about ourselves. We have to remember that everyone has to answer to God for himself, no coat-tail Christians.  Can we trust others to always know the truth?  I dare say, we cannot.  J. Hartline

Hello,  I have enjoyed your page. I and a friend have been studying the preterist view now for some time. We are troubled in our attempt to find fellowship with like minded Christians. It is heavy on my mind tonight to help another after a conversation on Math 24.  I challenged him not to turn Genea into genes.  He responded OK but....its a future generation. Oh how frustrating it can be.

Back to my friend, she and I have become quite close because of our similar paths in search of the truth.  She and I are in need of a church where we can worship God.  Anyway, so much for a quick overview of our emotional states.  We have visited John Bray in KY and Ed Stevens in Fla.

We have begun a new diet together, which I am beginning to follow. Thank you for your inspiration.  We hope to invite ourselves to visit with you in the near future. Please let us know when a good time for you might be.  We may have difficulty getting away but hope that our meeting is not to far in the future.

Ron Wagner
[email protected]

--My Comment:  Thanks Ron.  If your friend thinks "this generation" is future, ask him to prove it.  He can't do it.  Even Hal Lindsay had to make some wrong assumptions as a foundation for "Late Great Planet Earth."  He's a great writer, but very wrong on the timing of the "end times."
As far as church attendance, I have continued to fellowship where there is good music and not so much futurist stuff that I choke on it.  It does get me a little, but I am in dialog with my pastors about it (they're all futurist, right now).
I have been a preterist since early 1980s and for the first 15 years I didn't know I was a preterist (had never heard the word before) and didn't know there were others, but thanks to the Internet, I have found lots of them.

On the diet, it is still serving us well.  It is not a religious matter, just good health to keep the temple in order.

God bless, and keep on keeping on.
J. Hartline

Reply:

Dear William:
Thank you for your kind words.  I wish that everyone loved the truth enough to study and dig for it
(of course with prayer for understanding). I may not always be right, but it is my constant prayer that
I would never lead anyone to believe anything untrue.

God bless you,
Jim Hartline

Vantage Point:

I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not first and foremost a "preterist."  I am a Christian who sees eschatology from a "preterist" point of view.   This is because that is the correct position from which we should be looking at what Jesus called the end of the age.  I do not wish to be pigeon-holed into a category that includes a lot of people who believe other doctrines, unrelated to eschatology, that I do not believe.

Definition of the word "futurist:" "future fullfillment."
Someone who believes all or most End Time prophecy is still future.

Definition of the word "preterist:" "past fulfillment."
Someone who believes all or most End Time prophecy has been fulfilled.

Methodist, or Baptists, or Presbyterians, or Charismatics, or whatever group or individual may believe "futurist" or "preterist" on eschatology and still hold to their beliefs on other subjects.  I am not throwing out my other beliefs just because my understanding has been opened to the past fulfillment of prophecy.   Of course, this different view does open up Scripture to your understanding and some things will change as you understand them better.  When you learn a truth, the Scriptures always support it.  If it is not true, the Scriptures will show it up for what it is.

 Question: "If it is as Jesus says then what next?"  Jesus said:

1. That the disciples would not finish preaching in the cities of Israel before He returned
2. That the last apostle would not be dead when He came into His Kingdom
3. That judgement was coming on His generation of Jews for persecution of the church
4. That all the things in Matthew 24 were to happen in His generation
5. That when Jerusalem was surrounded with Roman armies all things were fulfilled
6. That He is coming quickly

Then why can't He just say what He means? Why is that so hard to let the Lord say what He means? Why must I change the above simple six things to make them say the opposite?
For example . . .

1. That all the disciples are dead and Jesus has not yet returned
2. That all the apostles are dead and He has not yet come into His Kingdom
3. That judgement did not fall on His generation but was put off until our future
4. That the things in Matthew 24 have not yet happened
5. That though Jerusalem was surrounded with armies in 70 AD, all things were not fulfilled
6. That when He says "quickly" He really means 2000+ years.

That, bottom line, is nothing but calling Jesus a false prophet! In fact, though that is not the intention, that is what a futurist eschatology does. It doesn't have a different interpretation of scripture, IT CHANGES IT TO MEAN THE VERY OPPOSITE OF WHAT IT SAYS! This is why I am writing you. Because I would rather you not adhere to something that changes the very thing stated to mean exactly the opposite of what it says.

You could accuse me of "spiritualizing" scriptures, for example. But you could not accuse me of making them say exactly the opposite of what they say! I say that Jesus DID come already ONLY because that is what Jesus said.

But to answer your questions:  "What do I do now?"

Fellowship with the Lord. Walk in His Kingdom power. Pray. Convert sinners. Do good. Enjoy His abiding presence! Drink from the River of Life. Preach the Kingdom of God. Look for long range solutions. Provide for your family. Further the Kingdom of God with Jesus as your King.

I'll bet you are doing this now? Well, so was I when I was a futurist, with the exception of the "long range solutions". So, the only thing different for me is that I am not expecting Jesus to come back and help me ESCAPE the world and my hardships, but rather I am expecting Jesus' abiding presence to help me CONQUER the world and its hardships. Instead of an escapist attitude, I have an overcoming attitude. Instead of waiting for Jesus to come back and fix it all, I'm working WITH Him to help fix it now and for my children and their children. I want to leave them a posterity! Not
escape to heaven!

"Where do I go from here?"

Hopefully you will do the above and leave your children something to live by and live on. You will live out your life in its fullness and die at a ripe old age and leave this world in a little bit better shape (at least around you) than it was if you hadn't been here.

"What is the 'Blessed Hope'?"

What it always has been . . . Christ in you, the hope of glory. The hope of heaven! What difference does it make whether you physically die to get there or are raptured there? Does the method really matter to you? Either way, you end up in exactly the same place enjoying the exact same things!

"What happens when I die?"

You leave your physical body and all its hindrances behind and don your new spiritual body that God gives you. You get a body exactly like Jesus' body! A glorified spiritual body that is not hindered any longer by physical limitations. You are NOT a disembodied spirit!

2 Corinthians 5
1 ¶ For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2  For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3  If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4  For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Paul says "if our earthly house . . . were dissolved", i.e. dies, then we have "a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens". i.e we get our "heavenly body" when our "earthly house" dies. We are NOT "unclothed" at death, we are "clothed upon".

1 Corinthians 15
37  And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38  But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39  All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40  There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41  There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Sown a "natural body" but raised a "spiritual body". Two different bodies.

45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

First is that which is "natural", that is, physical. Afterward that which is "spiritual". A spiritual body, not just a spirit.

47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

We get a body just like Jesus! Capable of manifesting itself physically and yet not physical.

50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Verse 50 ought to settle the issue of physical resurrection! Flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God. Why would Paul say that? Did God not mean it? Did He really intend for us to think, "Well, we still will be physically revived and live on the physical earth in our new physical
"spiritual" bodies"? Is that what God meant?

Therefore:
55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

When the law was fulfilled, then sin lost its strength When sin lost its strength, death lost its sting. And . . .

Revelation 14
13 ¶ And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

"Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth." First, notice that there is still death in this passage! And this passage is about the Second Coming of Jesus! Next, notice that we are "blessed" when we "die in the Lord" from that point! Why? Well, up until that time, the dead did not
enjoy the full presence of God. For example, when the Old Covenant saints would die, they descended to Hades, or Abraham's bosom. They were NOT in the presence of God there. You and I do not have to wait for hundreds of years in a holding place. We can go directly into the presence of God in fullness when we die! And not only that, we get our new body!

So, death has no sting for you. When you die, your spirit is clothed with your new spiritual body and you will enjoy the glories of heaven in their fullness for all eternity. Preterism doesn't change the ultimate conclusion. Futurism just believes that you remain in your "disembodied" state when you die until Jesus returns in our future for a physical resurrection at which point your physical body is changed and shoots up out of the physical ground into the sky to be joined with your disembodied
spirit. But how can that be?

What about all the bodies that have completely rotted away and literally no longer exist? What about all the bodies that were blown up? They literally physically do not exist! You might say, well God will just create them a new one. And I will say "He does it anyway for all!" because "flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the Kingdom!".

And Paul says,

2 Corinthians 5
3  If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Surely God won't leave us naked! (i.e. disembodied!).

At physical death, you are snatched away into the presence of God in its fullness. In fact, I like to see it as my RAPTURE! So in a sense, I am waiting for a future Rapture! Mine! At my physical death. When I physically die, I shall be raptured to heaven in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye!

 Note--Thanks Greg, Couldn't have said it better myself.....J.Hartline

More Email:   This one is from my daughter and it created quite a stir. Responses to it follow.

Subject: Re: Bibles
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:55:19 -0400
From: Susanne H Lehnerd
To:

Hey Dad,

Thanks for the note. Old beliefs die hard, I'm afraid. I still find
it amazing that the people in the mainstream never even hear about the
history of Jerusalem that so clearly fulfills Jesus' prophecies. I think
that is what baffles me most. I mean, you hear about the pyramids in
Egypt, and how they were made. Cleopatra and King Tut, ... cave men, and
ancient 'Indians', but something as important as this... being an
historical fact, why is it overlooked so easily? I never learned in
school or anywhere about these major events. Why? I really can't
understand it. Do the 'clergy' folk not study any of this kind of
history in seminary? If they don't, why not? Seems like they would be
MOST intent on learning as much as possible about the time period when
Christianity got it's profoundly propelling start. And if they did learn
of it, how could they not recognize it as fulfillment to the nine?
Consider this... why is it that the Eastern religions seem to have more
knowledge about their history than the Christians do? And traditional
'Jews' can give you their genealogy in detail, but we aren't even aware
of the fulfillment of Christ's prophesies. I cannot believe the
ignorance. If we ignore His fulfillments, I dare say we are nearly as
audaciously foolish as those of the Jews who didn't accept the Messiah
God sent. As they still await a messiah, today's Christian sect yet
awaits the fulfillment of prophesies long since satisfied. I just can't
understand how this has been overlooked for so long. Oh well, I don't
mean to preach to the choir; it has just really been on my mind a lot
lately. And yes, it is sad that so many have and will look upon
Preterism as heresy. Those who snub it, ignore the very key that
releases that exhilarating cascade of understanding that only truth can
bring. What has been so long cluttered with complications and mysteries
becomes not only discernable, but easily understandable. Every time I
read in the Bible now, I find myself smiling and saying, "Oh~, wow, that
really makes so much sense... Why didn't I understand that before?" I
know why, but I feel like the person in the old V8 commercials, smacking
myself on the forehead where the light bulb should have lit, so to speak.
Anyway, I may seem a little hyped about all this,... but there is
nothing better to be hyped about than seeing that Christ WAS and IS
indeed the truth and the light. And now, knowing that it all happened
just like He foretold, we don't even have to take it all on blind faith,
or try to 'excuse' seeming discrepancies in scripture (like 'generation'
and 'soon' and the folks there not tasting death until those things took
place, etc.) ... there aren't any. He said it and it happened. How easy
He has made it for us to be believers. It's humbling how God has just
handed us free life on a silver platter. We see both the prophecy AND
it's fulfillment. It just leaves no excuse for nonacceptance. Boy, how I
do go on. Ok, well, before I get started again, I have to go tend these
youngin's of mine. Take care, and I'll write again before too long.

Love you, ~Su~

Subject: Letter
Date: 19 July 1999
From: Jim Rittenhouse
To: Jim Hartline

Jimbo,

I think all who have traveled this path before could have written the same letter your daughter wrote. By far, the most difficult concept to grasp about Preterism is why don't the true seekers of Truth see it. There is a conspiracy of ignorance here but it is not with the Preterists, as the Futurists rhetorically assert. But in fairness and kindness to Futurists I will say that we all (or at least most of us) once believed in the Futurist eschatology and accepted the obscure and confused understanding of the same because we thought that was just the way it was supposed to be. Oh well, each in his or her own time I guess...we certainly don't know it all...

Thanks for sharing it bro, lets do lunch again soon. We always talk about calling you up and meeting you for lunch at the Hut, but procrastination gets the best of us.

Jim (the good one)

To: Jim Hartline

Dear Jim:

Your daughter's testimony is awesome and very encouraging. Thanks.  Sometimes it is hard to find encouragement through all the "heresy" name-calling that goes on. Most people just write you off as
being deceived by some cult, instead of investigating a little and finding out that most preterists come to their belief system via intense study and fellowship with the Holy Spirit.

Anyway, I would love to see you.

Greg

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Subject: Susanne's Letter
Date: Tues 20 July 1999, 07:46:38 -0400
From: Ken Baldwin,
To: Jim Hartline,

Jim,

The kingdom of heaven is like a man planting seeds...some fell on good ground. I am happy for you and your daughter; I am happy for Greg, Jim, Brett, and Ron; I am happy for myself and my wife; I am happy that the TRUTH is getting out. Glory and honor to our Lord forever and ever.

When I came to the Lord and began to read my Word, one of the earliest revelations given me was that the wrath was over. It was such a strange concept coming from a Baptist background that, although I did not dismiss it, I subdued the notion. Praise God that He never left me there. He is a
wonderful Father. Ask, and you shall receive.

Thanks for the Email and for keeping in touch Jim. I agree with Jim Rittenhouse, we need to get together again.

Ken

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E-mail from Jim Rittenhouse to Jim Hartline
28 September 1998

Jim,

The real problem here is that, with most people, the Futurist/Preterist
argument is emotional, not logical. Many people do not believe in
themselves enough to think they can find answers to profound issues on
their own, so they naturally revert to the assumed safety being taught by someone else, someone they consider an authority. This as you and I are
aware, is actually not safe at all. Men are subject to their own ideas,
most are not objective, and do not realize that they are biased. Greg and
I often discuss the incredible similarities of the Evolution/Creation
argument and the Futurist/Preterist argument. Quite frankly when you first submitted your ideas to me concerning Daniel and "In my Fathers house", I thought you were loony-bins and initially disregarded your input. But
the seed was planted, and for some people, it's only a matter of time,
before they have to resolve it.

I think there are two important aspects to communicating truth. First and
foremost is a friendly rapport. The second is a teachable spirit. I have
seen my own personal failing in being closed to the other viewpoint, if I
think it is ridiculous, only concentrating on communicating my idea. But
Greg has demonstrated to me several times, the benefits of listening to
The other's viewpoint. It establishes a mutual openness and it also tells
You where the other person is and usually why he believes what he does.
Unfortunately, and too many times, impatience has gotten the best of me,
And I have violated this principal, closing open doors. I have made the
Mistake of judging the other person with a divergent viewpoint. Oh well...

E-Mail me your work phone number and I will call you when our CDs arrive.
We can arrange lunch. I know that Greg would want to come.

Jim

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Comment: Thanks a gazillion for the great CD and the wealth of Christian material it contains.
Jim H.

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Subject: Doctinal Questions
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:15:21 EST
From:
To: [email protected]

My brother Jim!

How dost thou and thine fair?

I checked out your website and I am doctrinally impressed. The summary of
Josephus' write-up on the destruction of Jerusalem is awesome. I have some
questions:

1 - Do you believe that Satan is in the lake of fire now or not?

2 - Do you believe that Luke 21:22 proves that all prophecy was fulfilled
by A.D.70?

3 - Do you believe that some, none or all of the spiritual gifts described
in 1 Corinthians 12-14 have passed away?

4 - Do you believe, from a preterist point of view, that it is consistent
with scripture to speak in tongues?

5 - Has "that which is perfect" come already? If so, what is it? If not,
why not? My reply:

Take your time. I realize you are a busy man, but I love asking questions
To a humble well studied man such as yourself. (I should be a salesman!)

 Greg

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Dear James:
  Thanks for your reply to my series of questions regarding who shall be saved.
  Let me now respond to your answers as follows:
  Romans 9:27- "...it is the remnant that will be SAVED". The apostle Paul is
  quoting in this verse the words of Isa 10:22 which read: "only a remnant
  within them shall RETURN". This verse has nothing to do with eternal
  salvation, but everything to do with the initial response of the Jews to the
  claims of Christ. Otherwise, Paul could hardly state in Rom 11:26-27: "...and
  thus ALL Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come
  FROM Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob. And this is My covenant with
  them, when I take away their sins". Be advised, the Deliverer came "from" Zion
  nearly 2000 years ago and took away Israel's sins once and for all time.As to
  your second point, I agree wholeheartedly that "whosoever will call upon the
  name of the Lord will be saved" (Rom 10:13). But I ask you this, who is left
  out of Phil 2:9-11? Also, who is excluded from the promise of 2 Cor 5:19? Your
  final point is also right on: "...there is salvation in no one else... and no
  other name by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12) As it is written: " ...you
  shall call His name Jesus, for it is He who will save His people from their
  sins" (Matt 1:21). This is a done deal. Please carefully consider the
  implications of Heb 10:12-18. All scriptures from the NASB.
  Respectfully,
  Ivan

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