Alice Firth thought her name was Mary Helme not Ann
 she has family silver inscibe R. / J.-M. )
 but this could have belonged to Jesse  and Mary Ann Sutcliff
or Jesse and Mary Pearson.
 1851 census shows Ann b.abt1772 middleton,Thorhill parish


IGI has an
Ann Helm      b.10 July 1774 at Rothwell
              (a village 1 mile east of middletown)

but parents are according to  LDS members input
Mary Colley   b,abt 1753
m.30 jan 1774 Rothwell
John Helm     b.abt 1749
             (no benjamin helm found in yorkshire igi)





John Ramden origins not clear till we can find his age at death

given marrieage 1797, his birth should be  a about 20-25 years before
possible options are
christenings in All saints ,wakefield
15oct1764, to John
15sep1771, to Henry 
20jun1774, to John

given no Henry and first boy called John
1764 or 1774 more probable

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